Neilson(Robbie)

[Watt-Zeefuik]

18 minutes ago, Hmfc1965 said:

Are you really comparing these 3 scenarios,

 

I thought the comparison was obvious—a bad couple of results does not mean the team is in trouble. That debacle against the US (rightly recalled as a famous victory here) came between Spain's thoroughly dominant 2008 Euro and 2010 World Cup wins. No one thinks we played particularly well against Livingston, but that shouldn't take away the Riga and Motherwell wins, which were significant and resounding.

 

8 minutes ago, soonbe110 said:

You haven’t even seen Kio play yet you pigeon hole him as defensive mid to suit your argument.  He certainly didn’t play as a defensive mid yesterday. If he was supposed to he completely ignored the managers instructions and won’t be around for long if he keeps doing it. 

 

Exactly. Zog played in front of Halliday and Devlin and later in front of Haring. He sat in against when Well were throwing bodies forward but he spent the first 65-70 minutes in an attacking midfield position. @lost in space has decided he's a DM, though, so . . .

[Hmfc1965]

2 minutes ago, Led Tasso said:

 

I thought the comparison was obvious—a bad couple of results does not mean the team is in trouble. That debacle against the US (rightly recalled as a famous victory here) came between Spain's thoroughly dominant 2008 Euro and 2010 World Cup wins. No one thinks we played particularly well against Livingston, but that shouldn't take away the Riga and Motherwell wins, which were significant and resounding.

 

 @lost in space

The comparison is very obvious on a superficial level.

I've not come close to suggesting the two wins weren't impressive but to compare the current Hearts team to the other two is ludicrous. 

[Watt-Zeefuik]

19 minutes ago, GinRummy said:

That’s not the implication at all. What I actually said was ‘ folk saying the best for decades…’. If he wins a trophy he’ll be remembered as fondly as JJ but if he doesn’t he’ll be remembered as someone who got us back on track. The next guy who wins a trophy will get all the plaudits. 
 

Football is about winning things. As third best team in Scotland we will eventually pick up a trophy or two. That’s what everyone will revel in. 

 

Right, but folk remember Doddie more fondly than Ivanauskas despite the latter winning the big cup.

 

IMO "greatest ever" is far too much for Neilson, unless he wins a league title. "Greatest since Walker" might be closer but eras are so different and all that. Currently I'd say the very top of the best since Walker should be Macdonald, JJ, Burley (as a special case of course), Sergio, and Neilson. You can dicker about the ordering within that group but Neilson has 100% proven he deserves to be in the most elite group.

[WageThief]

1 minute ago, soonbe110 said:

When was the last time a Hearts manager won trophies?  Setting the bar a bit high for Robbie aren’t you?  If he was to win trophies together whilst maintaining his current win ratio he would be head and shoulders the clubs best manager ever. 

 

I don't think he's setting the bar high to be the best manager in decades tbh.  We've won trophies in those decades.  In order to (maybe) better Jefferies without winning a trophy he'd need to do something remarkable like consistent 2nd place finishes or getting to a European final or something.

 

Probably best he sets his sights on the old Scottish Cup.

[frankblack]

3 minutes ago, Hmfc1965 said:

Really?

https://www.londonhearts.com/scores/misc/hibscomp.htm#ByMan

 

What are you showing?

 

That table isn't clear as its got managers more than once.  JJ has been manager in more derbies than RN over both spells, however his first one had 26 games with a win % of 38.89%.  RN has managed less games combined.

 

JJ's second spell was under Vlad with a far bigger budget, and better record.

[lost in space]

1 minute ago, Led Tasso said:

 

I thought the comparison was obvious—a bad couple of results does not mean the team is in trouble. That debacle against the US (rightly recalled as a famous victory here) came between Spain's thoroughly dominant 2008 Euro and 2010 World Cup wins. No one thinks we played particularly well against Livingston, but that shouldn't take away the Riga and Motherwell wins, which were significant and resounding.

 

 

Exactly. Zog played in front of Halliday and Devlin and later in front of Haring. He sat in against when Well were throwing bodies forward but he spent the first 65-70 minutes in an attacking midfield position. @lost in space has decided he's a DM, though, so . . .

Well, I have only seen the highlights - but since he was already playing Halliday, Devlin and Haring (later) maybe Neilson decided that 3 def mids were enough for one game!!!

I am going by his description when he signed and I think he (Kio) will mostly play with Devlin in front of the back 4 or 5.

That will leave Haring, Halliday, C Smith, Sibbick and Beni (when fit) to come off the bench.

[Mr Elwood P]

4 minutes ago, lost in space said:

No, I havnt seen him but he when he signed, his position was described. Maybe Neilson has decided he want to play him further forward. I doubt it - he doesnt usually play an attacking mid.

He signed McEneff but didnt play him.  Maybe Grant will get a chance.

Defensive players: Kio, Cochrane, Rowles, Neilson & if you're being a pendant Zander Clark.

 

Attacking Players: Grant, Shankland, Snodgrass, Forrest and Humphrys.

 

5 + 5 = 10

 

Result: balanced squad with options all over the place. 

[kingantti1874]

16 minutes ago, Hmfc1965 said:

Really?

https://www.londonhearts.com/scores/misc/hibscomp.htm#ByMan

you said his record was and I quote “significantly better”  in 1965 is 39 %v 36%significant?
 

When  we win the next derby Robbie Neilsons records will stand at 41% will you jump back on and say Neilson record is “significantly” Better than JJ? 
 

and as pointed out above.  During JJ’s second spell he had Rudi in the squad.

 

im not trying to downplay JJ’s achievements.  Just pointing out the ridiculous standards Neilson is held to.  
 

let’s be honest, the hatred stem back to one loss, wish people would just call a spade a spade and admit the truth rather than making up ever more bizarre reason to not like neilson, and adjusting the bar every week

Edited September 19, 2022 by kingantti1874

[Watt-Zeefuik]

1 minute ago, Hmfc1965 said:

The comparison is very obvious on a superficial level.

I've not come close to suggesting the two wins weren't impressive but to compare the current Hearts team to the other two is ludicrous. 

 

Correct, it's so ludicrous that I assumed no one would think I was meaning a direct comparison. The fancy term for what I was doing is reducto ad absurdum which is just a fancy way of saying that fussing over a few bad results, taken broadly, would lead you to dismiss some of the best football teams ever.

 

But whatever.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

1 minute ago, lost in space said:

Well, I have only seen the highlights - but since he was already playing Halliday, Devlin and Haring (later) maybe Neilson decided that 3 def mids were enough for one game!!!

I am going by his description when he signed and I think he (Kio) will mostly play with Devlin in front of the back 4 or 5.

That will leave Haring, Halliday, C Smith, Sibbick and Beni (when fit) to come off the bench.

 

So you were talking out your arse, in other words.

[lost in space]

2 minutes ago, WageThief said:

 

I don't think he's setting the bar high to be the best manager in decades tbh.  We've won trophies in those decades.  In order to (maybe) better Jefferies without winning a trophy he'd need to do something remarkable like consistent 2nd place finishes or getting to a European final or something.

 

Probably best he sets his sights on the old Scottish Cup.

its a pity he doesnt set his sights on the League Cup.

[frankblack]

1 minute ago, Led Tasso said:

 

Correct, it's so ludicrous that I assumed no one would think I was meaning a direct comparison. The fancy term for what I was doing is reducto ad absurdum which is just a fancy way of saying that fussing over a few bad results, taken broadly, would lead you to dismiss some of the best football teams ever.

 

But whatever.

 

Those on here doing their nut about RN would have been calling for JJ's head after the 5-1 cup final defeat to Rangers.

[Hmfc1965]

2 minutes ago, Led Tasso said:

 

Correct, it's so ludicrous that I assumed no one would think I was meaning a direct comparison. The fancy term for what I was doing is reducto ad absurdum which is just a fancy way of saying that fussing over a few bad results, taken broadly, would lead you to dismiss some of the best football teams ever.

 

But whatever.

I know what it means.

But whatever. 

 

[GinRummy]

1 minute ago, Led Tasso said:

 

Right, but folk remember Doddie more fondly than Ivanauskas despite the latter winning the big cup.

 

IMO "greatest ever" is far too much for Neilson, unless he wins a league title. "Greatest since Walker" might be closer but eras are so different and all that. Currently I'd say the very top of the best since Walker should be Macdonald, JJ, Burley (as a special case of course), Sergio, and Neilson. You can dicker about the ordering within that group but Neilson has 100% proven he deserves to be in the most elite group.

He’s not the greatest since Walker. Burley just doesn’t feature and Doddie and JJ are ahead of him imo. So mostly agree. Win percentages on there own aren’t enough to define a manager. Craig Levein got us third two seasons on the bounce, Robbie hasn’t even managed that yet. Folk just getting a bit premature in their assessment of him.  

[lost in space]

3 minutes ago, Mr Elwood P said:

Defensive players: Kio, Cochrane, Rowles, Neilson & if you're being a pendant Zander Clark.

 

Attacking Players: Grant, Shankland, Snodgrass, Forrest and Humphrys.

 

5 + 5 = 10

 

Result: balanced squad with options all over the place. 

Thats a balanced set of signings - NOT proof of a balanced squad. To prove that you would have to include the players already signed.

[Hmfc1965]

1 minute ago, frankblack said:

 

Those on here doing their nut about RN would have been calling for JJ's head after the 5-1 cup final defeat to Rangers.

If you remember,  and I suspect you do, getting to that final felt like an achievement. 

There then seemed to be steady progress to next season's League Cup final then 1998.

 

[WageThief]

1 minute ago, Led Tasso said:

 

Right, but folk remember Doddie more fondly than Ivanauskas despite the latter winning the big cup.

 

 

I'm not old enough to remember Doddie's time properly but it's about context I suppose.  Those who are old enough maybe remember the shitty years previous to him, and although he didn't win, he got closer to the League than anyone else since and beat Bayern Munich and go further in Europe/done better in Europe than anyone else since.

[frankblack]

Just now, Hmfc1965 said:

If you remember,  and I suspect you do, getting to that final felt like an achievement. 

There then seemed to be steady progress to next season's League Cup final then 1998.

 

 

Much like with us just now, then?

[lost in space]

4 minutes ago, Led Tasso said:

 

So you were talking out your arse, in other words.

If you had any intellect, you would give reasons on why you disagree with my post - but NO, insults is probably as good as it gets for you. 

[WageThief]

4 minutes ago, lost in space said:

its a pity he doesnt set his sights on the League Cup.

 

He's like his mentor George Burley, but better dressed.  Too big for the nonsense cup.

[Mr Elwood P]

3 minutes ago, lost in space said:

Thats a balanced set of signings - NOT proof of a balanced squad. To prove that you would have to include the players already signed.

Well add them all up and you'll find we have plenty cover for the 3 or 4 attacking positions on the park...

[Hmfc1965]

Just now, frankblack said:

 

Much like with us just now, then?

Not entirely. 

We've gone from losing in normal time to losing on penalties to losing in extra time.

[frankblack]

Just now, Hmfc1965 said:

Not entirely. 

We've gone from losing in normal time to losing on penalties to losing in extra time.

 

With a 3rd place finish and European League qualification. 👌

[lost in space]

Just now, Mr Elwood P said:

Well add them all up and you'll find we have plenty cover for the 3 or 4 attacking positions on the park...

Disagree. They are not likely to be good enough in that position (CF/Striker) if we need to call on them.

[Mr Elwood P]

Just now, lost in space said:

Disagree. They are not likely to be good enough in that position (CF/Striker) if we need to call on them.

Who isn't good enough? Grant or Snodgrass or Gino or Humphrys? Even GMS will do a job when called upon. 

[GinRummy]

1 minute ago, Hmfc1965 said:

Not entirely. 

We've gone from losing in normal time to losing on penalties to losing in extra time.

It’s a hard task beating Celtic in a cup final tbf. We just need to keep getting there and we’ll win one eventually. That’s what you do when you’re up against a team who dominate Scottish football. 

[frankblack]

1 minute ago, lost in space said:

Disagree. They are not likely to be good enough in that position (CF/Striker) if we need to call on them.

 

How much exactly do you think a striker of that quality costs?

[Naisys Tackle]

25 minutes ago, GinRummy said:

Probably trophy but if he’s here for another 20 years that’d be less impressive. If he keeps getting to finals we’ll win one soon. Look at 98, felt like we’d never win one. 

Well he's only one more chance to make one this season sadly. 

[GinRummy]

Just now, Robbies Tackle said:

Well he's only one more chance to make one this season sadly. 

Yeah. The Kilmarnock game was the low point this season. Went out with an absolute whimper. Garbage. 

[Naisys Tackle]

6 minutes ago, WageThief said:

 

He's like his mentor George Burley, but better dressed.  Too big for the nonsense cup.

I'm sure he would love to win any trophy. 

[Naisys Tackle]

Just now, GinRummy said:

Yeah. The Kilmarnock game was the low point this season. Went out with an absolute whimper. Garbage. 

Live and learn hopefully.  

[lost in space]

2 minutes ago, Mr Elwood P said:

Who isn't good enough? Grant or Snodgrass or Gino or Humphrys? Even GMS will do a job when called upon. 

My god, now I know you must be joking -GMS??

How low are you going to set the bar???

For a CF position - Shankland is the only person we know we can rely on. Humphrys might be good enough. We dont know. We should not be going into a season, knowing this.

[GinRummy]

1 minute ago, Robbies Tackle said:

Live and learn hopefully.  

Hope so. 

[Hmfc1965]

5 minutes ago, GinRummy said:

It’s a hard task beating Celtic in a cup final tbf. We just need to keep getting there and we’ll win one eventually. That’s what you do when you’re up against a team who dominate Scottish football. 

It is. Or Rangers.

To be honest this is getting absurd.

[GinRummy]

Just now, Hmfc1965 said:

It is. Or Rangers.

To be honest this is getting absurd.

Your chat with other posters might be absurd to you but all I’ve said is beating Celtic, or rangers in a cup final isn’t easy. You get to enough finals and you’ll win one eventually. 98 taught us that 

[lost in space]

5 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

How much exactly do you think a striker of that quality costs?

About the same as 2 def Mids!

 

OK, not being serious with that last comment. I find it hard to believe that we have started the season with only 1 CF/Striker that we know is good.

[Mr Elwood P]

4 minutes ago, lost in space said:

My god, now I know you must be joking -GMS??

How low are you going to set the bar???

For a CF position - Shankland is the only person we know we can rely on. Humphrys might be good enough. We dont know. We should not be going into a season, knowing this.

You know absolutely nothing and are just making a fool of yourself. Your entire argument is that Humphrys might not be good enough?? I'll trust the recruitment team over some slaver on JKB...

[kingantti1874]

7 minutes ago, lost in space said:

About the same as 2 def Mids!

 

OK, not being serious with that last comment. I find it hard to believe that we have started the season with only 1 CF/Striker that we know is good.

And that Robbie Neilsons fault ? Btw I agree with you.L other than the fact we started with 2.    I’m pretty sure Neilson isn’t happy with that situation either 

[lost in space]

Just now, Mr Elwood P said:

You know absolutely nothing and are just making a fool of yourself. Your entire argument is that Humphrys might not be good enough?? I'll trust the recruitment team over some slaver on JKB...

So, are you saying that Humphrys WILL definitely be a success??

No doubts? 

Yes, my argument is Humphrys may not be good enough. You dont know. I dont know. The recruitment team dont know.  They will know that he has a good chance of being good - but he does not have the history (unlike Shankland) for anyone to know that he will be good.

We should not be in that position.

[Mikey1874]

On 08/09/2022 at 19:53, Australis said:

Said on another thread we would get 4 points from our group.

Now changing that to no points.

 

We are god damn awful with no game plan and not an ounce of fitness.

 

Cammy Devlin finding out he is playing along side some lazy gutless barstewards.

 

What will the clowns excuse for that be this week?

 

 

Quality analysis 

[GinRummy]

2 minutes ago, kingantti1874 said:

And that Robbie Neilsons fault ? Btw I agree with you.L other than the fact we started with 2.    I’m pretty sure Neilson isn’t happy with that situation either 

He mentioned he was after another ‘forward’ on more than one occasion during the window. Agree, it’s fairly obvious we were likely after a few other targets before Humphrys. 

[davemclaren]

13 minutes ago, lost in space said:

About the same as 2 def Mids!

 

OK, not being serious with that last comment. I find it hard to believe that we have started the season with only 1 CF/Striker that we know is good.

I imagine Robbie and Joe will know what they are getting with Humphries.  

[lost in space]

1 minute ago, kingantti1874 said:

And that Robbie Neilsons fault ? Btw I agree with you.L other than the fact we started with 2.    I’m pretty sure Neilson isn’t happy with that situation either 

Yes, we are on a "Neilson thread" - and I and others have drifted into recruitment/ negative play etc.

In fairness, Neilson is a big part of the recruitment process.

Re 2 - Boyce would have been handy as a standby striker but he knows that his legs were not going to be good enough for more than a small number of games there. He has moved back (rightly in my view) to more of a supporting role.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

29 minutes ago, lost in space said:

If you had any intellect, you would give reasons on why you disagree with my post - but NO, insults is probably as good as it gets for you. 

Mate I wrote a long post yesterday on this thread that explicitly pointed out the factual errors you were making, and you just waved it off and said, "I'm not responding to that." You'll forgive me if I don't bother again.

[Mr Elwood P]

9 minutes ago, lost in space said:

So, are you saying that Humphrys WILL definitely be a success??

No doubts? 

Yes, my argument is Humphrys may not be good enough. You dont know. I dont know. The recruitment team dont know.  They will know that he has a good chance of being good - but he does not have the history (unlike Shankland) for anyone to know that he will be good.

We should not be in that position.

Nobody knew if Shankland would be a success either so that's a terrible example. Half the posters on here were ambivalent at best. Even yesterday folk on the Match-day thread were criticising his hold up play and lack of assists. Then he perfectly holds the ball up for the Forrest goal. 

Edited September 19, 2022 by Mr Elwood P

[lost in space]

2 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

I imagine Robbie and Joe will know what they are getting with Humphries.  

They will know the type of player he is. They will know his strengths and weaknesses. They will believe that there is a good/very good chance that he will be good for us.

They do not know if he will be a success here. Every player is a bit of a gamble and what the player has done in the past will determine how much of a gamble.

Humphrys history (or lack of) means he is more of a gamble than I would have liked.

[Bazzas right boot]

Bobmeister or Bob seems inadequate. 

King Bob seems more appropriate. 

 

We'll finish 3rd again. 

He'll be 3/3 for 3rd place finishes. 

 

Folk will talk about McInnes and other such shite. 

 

The goal posts will move. 

 

 

 

[GinRummy]

Just now, lost in space said:

They will know the type of player he is. They will know his strengths and weaknesses. They will believe that there is a good/very good chance that he will be good for us.

They do not know if he will be a success here. Every player is a bit of a gamble and what the player has done in the past will determine how much of a gamble.

Humphrys history (or lack of) means he is more of a gamble than I would have liked.

I suspect he’s more of a gamble than Robbie or Joe would have liked as well. Surely you just wait and see though? I doubt many clubs would have filled all the positions they needed filled with their first or even second choice targets. 

[lost in space]

3 minutes ago, Led Tasso said:

Mate I wrote a long post yesterday on this thread that explicitly pointed out the factual errors you were making, and you just waved it off and said, "I'm not responding to that." You'll forgive me if I don't bother again.

Not factual errors - maybe you disagreed my opinion (which is fine).  I didnt respond due to personal insults probably.

I will forgive if you dont bother again. I would actually prefer it.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

1 minute ago, lost in space said:

Not factual errors - maybe you disagreed my opinion (which is fine).  I didnt respond due to personal insults probably.

I will forgive if you dont bother again. I would actually prefer it.

 

Ignore list it is, then!