Russia Invades Ukraine

[Cade]

Don't take their nuclear bleating at face value.

They're only coming out with that pish because they're losing their army in vast numbers.

If they were actually winning they'd not mention them at all.

Russia has already been told what the consequences of even a small tactical nuke would be.
Even they are not daft enough for that.

 

The alternative offered is to allow them to invade anyone they want that isn't in NATO, just in case they nuke us if we speak up or act???

Nah, baws tae that.

That just leads back to USSR mk2 and another 50 years of Cold War.

 

If we allow them to keep what they illegally annexed, it legalises and legitimises wars of conquest and bampots around the world will be licking their lips.
Taiwan, for one, would be in immediate danger.

West Bank in Palestine, for another.
Yemen, another case.
Kashmir, again.

It'd be a free-for-all because they know that the international community will send thoughts and prayers and do feck all else in the face of massive naked aggression.

Appeasing dictators didn't work so well in the 1930s.

It didn't work in 1994, it didn't work in 2014, it didn't work in 2022 and it won't work now.

[Nucky Thompson]

This thread has turned a bit weird 

[Cranston]

56 minutes ago, Cade said:

Don't take their nuclear bleating at face value.

They're only coming out with that pish because they're losing their army in vast numbers.

If they were actually winning they'd not mention them at all.

Russia has already been told what the consequences of even a small tactical nuke would be.
Even they are not daft enough for that.

 

The alternative offered is to allow them to invade anyone they want that isn't in NATO, just in case they nuke us if we speak up or act???

Nah, baws tae that.

That just leads back to USSR mk2 and another 50 years of Cold War.

 

If we allow them to keep what they illegally annexed, it legalises and legitimises wars of conquest and bampots around the world will be licking their lips.
Taiwan, for one, would be in immediate danger.

West Bank in Palestine, for another.
Yemen, another case.
Kashmir, again.

It'd be a free-for-all because they know that the international community will send thoughts and prayers and do feck all else in the face of massive naked aggression.

Appeasing dictators didn't work so well in the 1930s.

It didn't work in 1994, it didn't work in 2014, it didn't work in 2022 and it won't work now.

Realism is not appeasement. Russia is, believe it or not the largest nuclear weaponised country in the world, and I firmly believe Putin would deploy if Russia is seriously threatened. I'm not saying appease. However, we must tread very carefully if we are to avoid the next escalation, and seek diplomacy, and peace with Russia, while not raising the white flag. Its foolhardy to believe that we could defeat Russia without WW3 and nuclear devastation a possibility. I agree, that we cannot just give in to Russia, however, there has to be an acceptance that we must, have a duty to seek some sort of peace deal for both sides to take stock. Its imperative.

[Mikey1874]

3 hours ago, Cranston said:

You want Nato boots on the ground against Russia, or wipe them them out with ever more powerful Nato weaponry? Really?

 

You want Russia to subjugate Europe. Be in complete control. 

 

It doesn't look like that. But no one predicted Ukraine. 

[Mikey1874]

1 hour ago, Cranston said:

Realism is not appeasement. Russia is, believe it or not the largest nuclear weaponised country in the world, and I firmly believe Putin would deploy if Russia is seriously threatened. I'm not saying appease. However, we must tread very carefully if we are to avoid the next escalation, and seek diplomacy, and peace with Russia, while not raising the white flag. Its foolhardy to believe that we could defeat Russia without WW3 and nuclear devastation a possibility. I agree, that we cannot just give in to Russia, however, there has to be an acceptance that we must, have a duty to seek some sort of peace deal for both sides to take stock. Its imperative.

 

Yes.

 

Let the strong take over the week. Piss off out of your house. I'll send you an address to post me your keys.

 

You've got till Friday. 

[Cranston]

1 minute ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

You want Russia to subjugate Europe. Be in complete control. 

 

It doesn't look like that. But no one predicted Ukraine. 

You seem to have confused me with a different poster. I've never said I want 'Russia to subjugate Europe' or 'Be in complete control'.

[Cranston]

1 minute ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

Yes.

 

Let the strong take over the week. Piss off out of your house. I'll send you an address to post me your keys.

 

You've got till Friday. 

Very obtuse and maniacal interpretation. Alarming even.

[Mikey1874]

19 minutes ago, Cranston said:

Very obtuse and maniacal interpretation. Alarming even.

 

You want to make peace with Russia. 

 

Peace through strength. You are probably nice and comfortable not being under any threat in your life, hopefully.

 

But you think threat should be rewarded. You are the one who is alarming.

[Libertarian]

11 hours ago, Cranston said:

There are very few in the West now cheering or whooping. The reality of the war in Ukraine, and the possibility of it expanding has sobered up most who once did. My hope is that there will emerge the possibility of a truce and peace talks armed with reality and acceptance. WW3 at least in Europe is unavoidable if Putin and the West do not facilitate a peace summit sometime, hopefully soon. 

If you want peace in Ukraine stop sending arms to Ukraine. It's as simple as that. Zelensky and Putin had brokered a peace deal in Istanbul in April 2022 until Biden sent his poodle, the cretin Boris to Kiev and told them to keep fighting as the West would support Ukraine to the hilt. The result 500,000 Ukrainian dead soldiers and counting, millions of lives disrupted and a ruined Ukraine which will never recover.

[Pap]

1 hour ago, Libertarian said:

If you want peace in Ukraine stop sending arms to Ukraine. It's as simple as that. Zelensky and Putin had brokered a peace deal in Istanbul in April 2022 until Biden sent his poodle, the cretin Boris to Kiev and told them to keep fighting as the West would support Ukraine to the hilt. The result 500,000 Ukrainian dead soldiers and counting, millions of lives disrupted and a ruined Ukraine which will never recover.

 

[Jeffros Furios]

1 hour ago, Libertarian said:

If you want peace in Ukraine stop sending arms to Ukraine. It's as simple as that. Zelensky and Putin had brokered a peace deal in Istanbul in April 2022 until Biden sent his poodle, the cretin Boris to Kiev and told them to keep fighting as the West would support Ukraine to the hilt. The result 500,000 Ukrainian dead soldiers and counting, millions of lives disrupted and a ruined Ukraine which will never recover.

If you believe 500,000 Ukranians are dead how many Russians do you think are dead ? 

And there won't  be peace until the poisoned dwarf pulls his 3rd rate army of rapists and drunks from Ukraine .

 

If you think Putin is the good guy here you are a nutter that needs locked up .

 

[Mikey1874]

Just for helping (a bit patronising to say educate) there were real peace proposals/ ideas from Ukraine early on partly because they were in shock at being invaded and were trying everything to stop it.

 

If anyone has seen the videos of the early phone calls between Zelensky and Macron where Zelensky is begging Macron to get Putin to stop it. 

 

The proposal from Ukraine was to make Crimea and Dombas special areas that could be negotiated later. Ukraine was offering to concede sovereignty there.

 

But what ended it all was the evidence of torture and killing of civilians in Bucha etc from early March 2022. And that's 2 years now Ukraine is not prepared to talk to Russia and Russia is still trying to get to control more territory first.

 

 

[RustyRightPeg]

6 hours ago, Libertarian said:

If you want peace in Ukraine stop sending arms to Ukraine. It's as simple as that. Zelensky and Putin had brokered a peace deal in Istanbul in April 2022 until Biden sent his poodle, the cretin Boris to Kiev and told them to keep fighting as the West would support Ukraine to the hilt. The result 500,000 Ukrainian dead soldiers and counting, millions of lives disrupted and a ruined Ukraine which will never recover.

 

[Threedoorsdown]

6 hours ago, Libertarian said:

If you want peace in Ukraine stop sending arms to Ukraine. It's as simple as that. Zelensky and Putin had brokered a peace deal in Istanbul in April 2022 until Biden sent his poodle, the cretin Boris to Kiev and told them to keep fighting as the West would support Ukraine to the hilt. The result 500,000 Ukrainian dead soldiers and counting, millions of lives disrupted and a ruined Ukraine which will never recover.

This must be a troll? Surely it can only be a troll.

[Lovecraft]

6 hours ago, Libertarian said:

If you want peace in Ukraine stop sending arms to Ukraine. It's as simple as that. Zelensky and Putin had brokered a peace deal in Istanbul in April 2022 until Biden sent his poodle, the cretin Boris to Kiev and told them to keep fighting as the West would support Ukraine to the hilt. The result 500,000 Ukrainian dead soldiers and counting, millions of lives disrupted and a ruined Ukraine which will never recover.

[Dawnrazor]

1 hour ago, Lovecraft said:

🤣🤣🤣

[Konrad von Carstein]

1 hour ago, Lovecraft said:

Fair comment

 

[Cranston]

8 hours ago, Libertarian said:

If you want peace in Ukraine stop sending arms to Ukraine. It's as simple as that. Zelensky and Putin had brokered a peace deal in Istanbul in April 2022 until Biden sent his poodle, the cretin Boris to Kiev and told them to keep fighting as the West would support Ukraine to the hilt. The result 500,000 Ukrainian dead soldiers and counting, millions of lives disrupted and a ruined Ukraine which will never recover.

Let's hypothesize for a moment. In your opinion, would Putin immediately stop the war in Ukraine, if no further weapons were imported to Ukraine, and would Putin engage in negotiations with Ukraine? Or would he view it as weakness, and push ever more to conquer the whole of Ukraine? How would you see it developing, in such an event?

[Cranston]

15 hours ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

You want to make peace with Russia. 

 

Peace through strength. You are probably nice and comfortable not being under any threat in your life, hopefully.

 

But you think threat should be rewarded. You are the one who is alarming.

I appreciate the central point, however, strength isn't always being forceful. The West is powerful enough to also be realistic, take stock, and understand that there will have to be negotiations with Russia sometime, otherwise it could become catastrophic for the whole of Europe. I hope that solutions can be found by wiser people than us, without more needless bloodshed and carnage. We need clever people in charge, not yahoo warmongers. 

[Sawdust Caesar]

17 hours ago, Cranston said:

Realism is not appeasement. Russia is, believe it or not the largest nuclear weaponised country in the world, and I firmly believe Putin would deploy if Russia is seriously threatened. I'm not saying appease. However, we must tread very carefully if we are to avoid the next escalation, and seek diplomacy, and peace with Russia, while not raising the white flag. Its foolhardy to believe that we could defeat Russia without WW3 and nuclear devastation a possibility. I agree, that we cannot just give in to Russia, however, there has to be an acceptance that we must, have a duty to seek some sort of peace deal for both sides to take stock. Its imperative.

I don't. The Russians aren't willing to commit suicide for Putin's ego because the West also have more than enough nukes to obliterate Russia and little Vlad knows this. The policy Russia has regarding using nukes is when the country is being invaded they can deploy them. If Russia isn't being invaded then I don't see any of the top military commanders  or politicians willing to fire them off because they aren't winning in Ukraine.  

 

Putin has being threatening the use of nukes for ages now, it's his go to threat when things aren't going well for him.

[redjambo]

10 minutes ago, Cranston said:

Let's hypothesize for a moment. In your opinion, would Putin immediately stop the war in Ukraine, if no further weapons were imported to Ukraine, and would Putin engage in negotiations with Ukraine? Or would he view it as weakness, and push ever more to conquer the whole of Ukraine? How would you see it developing, in such an event?

 

Remember, if/when you get a reply from Libertarian, that back in 2022 he expressed the opinion that there was no way that Russia would launch a full invasion of Ukraine, while also stating that Ukraine would deserve everything that might come to them (I presume that included murder, rape, maimings, looting, stealing of children etc.). Ask him whether the atrocities at Bucha happened, for example, and perhaps you'll get a better understanding of his point of view.

[Jim_Duncan]

47 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

Remember, if/when you get a reply from Libertarian, that back in 2022 he expressed the opinion that there was no way that Russia would launch a full invasion of Ukraine, while also stating that Ukraine would deserve everything that might come to them (I presume that included murder, rape, maimings, looting, stealing of children etc.). Ask him whether the atrocities at Bucha happened, for example, and perhaps you'll get a better understanding of his point of view.

I’m more interested in him squaring the circle on how Jewish Zelenskyy is a Nazi. 

[Cade]

The self-declared "2nd best army in the World" has had its heid kicked in by a much smaller neighbour armed with mostly old Soviet-era equipment, small amounts of donated surplus Cold War era NATO gear and only tiny token amounts of modern Western kit.

 

Russia has had to resort to emptying prisons and press-ganging immigrants into its army.

It's had to resort to digging out out ancient, obsolete T-62 and even T-55 tanks and pressing them into front line service.

They've lost 1/3 of the Black Sea Fleet to a nation without a navy and have had to scatter the rest to prevent them from being sunk too. 

They're expending men and machines in huge quantities just to hold the lines static, and are taking many months to take even moderately sized towns (which are totally destroyed in the process)

What was touted as a blitzkreig that was going to sweep all before them, replacing the Ukraine government with a Russian puppet and restoring Russian pride and international prestige has ended up in WW1 style trench warfare, half a million dead, a trashed military, an economy in deep shite, a loss of international reputation and a rapid expansion of NATO.

The entire debacle has been an embarrassment for them.

 

The only way they can possibly save face now is through a complete military victory.

Even if you offered them peace right now, they'd make ludicrous demands they know will never be accepted.

We saw this in the build up to the invasion with their demands to prevent the invasion being utterly outrageous.

They'll not stop until they've proven a point to themselves.

The Russians are terrified of direct Western involvement.

Because that means large amounts of cutting-edge modern gear against their ancient rusty tanks.

 

 

Edited April 2 by Cade

[Boab]

19 hours ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

You want Russia to subjugate Europe. Be in complete control. 

 

It doesn't look like that. But no one predicted Ukraine. 

You think the West didn’t have a clue about Russian intentions going back to the early 90’s ?

Really ?

The Russians were never going to give up Crimea. It’s like asking the yanks to give up on Israel. 
Ask yourself why NATO and the yanks didn’t support Ukraine in 2014 as they are now. 
Please don’t say because Putin lied to them !

[henrysmithsgloves]

Another one of Putin's friends blown up🧐

 https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/27084298/valeriy-chaika-killed-car-bomb-ukraine/

[manaliveits105]

another sad loss to fashion 

[Class of 75]

17 hours ago, Cade said:

The self-declared "2nd best army in the World" has had its heid kicked in by a much smaller neighbour armed with mostly old Soviet-era equipment, small amounts of donated surplus Cold War era NATO gear and only tiny token amounts of modern Western kit.

 

Russia has had to resort to emptying prisons and press-ganging immigrants into its army.

It's had to resort to digging out out ancient, obsolete T-62 and even T-55 tanks and pressing them into front line service.

They've lost 1/3 of the Black Sea Fleet to a nation without a navy and have had to scatter the rest to prevent them from being sunk too. 

They're expending men and machines in huge quantities just to hold the lines static, and are taking many months to take even moderately sized towns (which are totally destroyed in the process)

What was touted as a blitzkreig that was going to sweep all before them, replacing the Ukraine government with a Russian puppet and restoring Russian pride and international prestige has ended up in WW1 style trench warfare, half a million dead, a trashed military, an economy in deep shite, a loss of international reputation and a rapid expansion of NATO.

The entire debacle has been an embarrassment for them.

 

The only way they can possibly save face now is through a complete military victory.

Even if you offered them peace right now, they'd make ludicrous demands they know will never be accepted.

We saw this in the build up to the invasion with their demands to prevent the invasion being utterly outrageous.

They'll not stop until they've proven a point to themselves.

The Russians are terrified of direct Western involvement.

Because that means large amounts of cutting-edge modern gear against their ancient rusty tanks.

 

 

Not the first time either. Beaten by a smaller British force in Crimea in the 19th Century, trounced by Japan in the early 1900's, capitulated in WW1, effectively kept standing by the Allies in WWII and embarrassed by Afghan goat herders in the 1980's. Hopefully, face defeat again in Ukraine.

Edited April 3 by Class of 75

[Cade]

Ukraine's aerial drones are getting larger, longer ranged and much more capable.

They've hit a factory deep inside Russia that was producing Iranian designed Shahed drones, a good 1,200km over the border in central Russia (Tatarstan).

The drone was the size of a light aircraft and managed to fly that distance across Russia without being either spotted nor intercepted.

This may or may not be because all of Russia's air defences are either around Moscow or in Ukraine.

A similar drone attack hit another oil refinery up north on the Finnish border, again around 1,000km and again without being spotted or intercepted.

Some analysts think that Russian fuel output has fallen by as much as 15% due to the recent refinery attacks and they've had to resort to importing fuel from Belarus.

 

 

[Benny Factor]

9 hours ago, henrysmithsgloves said:

Another one of Putin's friends blown up🧐

 https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/27084298/valeriy-chaika-killed-car-bomb-ukraine/

How appropriate that he was driving a Mitsubishi Pajero    

[henrysmithsgloves]

9 hours ago, manaliveits105 said:

another sad loss to fashion 

🤣🤣

[Mikey1874]

1 hour ago, Benny Factor said:

How appropriate that he was driving a Mitsubishi Pajero    

 

Yeah

 

Good news the car in the picture above was not the one destroyed 

 

 

[Cade]

Several Russian propaganda sources are claiming that the drone that hit Tatarstan was launched from Kazahkstan.

 

I told you they'd be after The Stans next after Ukraine......they're trying to rebuild the USSR.

[Threedoorsdown]

5 minutes ago, Cade said:

Several Russian propaganda sources are claiming that the drone that hit Tatarstan was launched from Kazahkstan.

 

I told you they'd be after The Stans next after Ukraine......they're trying to rebuild the USSR.

The Chinese must be creaming themselves right now. 

[Mikey1874]

Drone and AI technology offers opportunities for some conflict. 

[redjambo]

3 hours ago, Cade said:

Several Russian propaganda sources are claiming that the drone that hit Tatarstan was launched from Kazahkstan.

 

I told you they'd be after The Stans next after Ukraine......they're trying to rebuild the USSR.

 

I did contemplate the notion when I saw how close the target was to the Kazakhstan border. I very much doubt however that this was the case. The Kazakhs wouldn't want to get involved (not yet anyway), and the logistics of doing it behind their backs are a mite difficult, particularly given the nature of the drone.

[redjambo]

3 hours ago, Threedoorsdown said:

The Chinese must be creaming themselves right now. 

 

China = Machiavelli. Don't get involved, keep ties on both sides, and profit from the losses of both. Taking a leaf out of Turkey's book.

[henrysmithsgloves]

 

[cuthy2k]

40ish drones attack a Ruskie airfield in the Rostov region. 6 aircraft destroyed and around 8 more damaged. 

 

Ukraine also taking small aircraft and fitting them with tech to turn them into drones laden with expslovies. 

[Ulysses]

Says all that needs to be said, frankly. 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/05/fugitive-former-us-city-councillor-enlists-with-russia-for-war-in-ukraine

 

[Cranston]

1 hour ago, cuthy2k said:

40ish drones attack a Ruskie airfield in the Rostov region. 6 aircraft destroyed and around 8 more damaged. 

 

Ukraine also taking small aircraft and fitting them with tech to turn them into drones laden with expslovies. 

What good does that do though? 

 

The West is going to have to ensure Ukraine engages in peace talks sometime, why waste energy and time on useless drone bombing of some airfield somewhere. Just get on with making the deal with Russia, and get them back into the fold asap. Enough of the posturing. 

[cuthy2k]

Just now, Cranston said:

What good does that do though? 

 

The West is going to have to ensure Ukraine engages in peace talks sometime, why waste energy and time on useless drone bombing of some airfield somewhere. Just get on with making the deal with Russia, and get them back into the fold asap. Enough of the posturing. 

 

It does alot of good from a UKR position and naive to think as useless. That is at least 14 expensive aircraft that now cannot be used on the frontline. It will also likely consume other jets which need to be stripped for parts to repair those damaged until the supply chain can catchup. It makes the RUS millitary machine weaker as they are relying on these aircraft to 'toss' bombs at UKR positions. 

 

And what deal would you propose? UKR give up sovereign territory in return for guarantees that RUS won't do this again? RUS will rearm and go again in a few years.  

[Cranston]

1 minute ago, cuthy2k said:

 

It does alot of good from a UKR position and naive to think as useless. That is at least 14 expensive aircraft that now cannot be used on the frontline. It will also likely consume other jets which need to be stripped for parts to repair those damaged until the supply chain can catchup. It makes the RUS millitary machine weaker as they are relying on these aircraft to 'toss' bombs at UKR positions. 

 

And what deal would you propose? UKR give up sovereign territory in return for guarantees that RUS won't do this again? RUS will rearm and go again in a few years.  

In the few years grace, do you not think by that time Ukraine would be armed to the teeth by Nato, possibly even a member of Nato, works both ways.

[cuthy2k]

4 minutes ago, Cranston said:

In the few years grace, do you not think by that time Ukraine would be armed to the teeth by Nato, possibly even a member of Nato, works both ways.

 

Yes, a good point. Not sure UKR would be happy giving up territory however. Glad I'm not the one making that call. 

[noskillson]

We should stop ****ing about and .nuke Russia.. then invade... Pillage all the natural resources and turn the population into factory fodder making Russia the sweatshop for the world.. it's what the Russian propaganda machine is spouting so it would be no surprise if it happens... Go NATO Go!!!!

[Mikey1874]

21 minutes ago, Cranston said:

What good does that do though? 

 

The West is going to have to ensure Ukraine engages in peace talks sometime, why waste energy and time on useless drone bombing of some airfield somewhere. Just get on with making the deal with Russia, and get them back into the fold asap. Enough of the posturing. 

 

What should Ukraine give up for peace?

[Jim_Duncan]

25 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

Says all that needs to be said, frankly. 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/05/fugitive-former-us-city-councillor-enlists-with-russia-for-war-in-ukraine

 

Trump will probably make him US Ambassador to Russia come January 2025.

[Jim_Duncan]

Just now, Mikey1874 said:

 

What should Ukraine give up for peace?

That awful Eurovision song they won with a couple of years ago.

[Jim_Duncan]

2 minutes ago, noskillson said:

We should stop ****ing about and .nuke Russia.. then invade... Pillage all the natural resources and turn the population into factory fodder making Russia the sweatshop for the world.. it's what the Russian propaganda machine is spouting so it would be no surprise if it happens... Go NATO Go!!!!

I'm in.

 

Just give me 24 hours to build my own fall out shelter.

[Jeff]

8 minutes ago, Jim_Duncan said:

That awful Eurovision song they won with a couple of years ago.

 

That was a banger you miserable git

[Jim_Duncan]

1 minute ago, Jeff said:

 

That was a banger you miserable git

I diverted my FOH donation to Putin that month.