Russia Invades Ukraine

[Cade]

It's Russia.

"The Truth" simply doesn't exist.
Misinformation, lies, cover-ups, false flags, gaslighting and other shenanigans is just how they live their lives.

 

We'll never know what really happened yesterday.

You can guess, second guess, third guess, double-think and conspiracy theory yourself into a mental tornado trying to work it out.

[Cranston]

6 minutes ago, Cade said:

It's Russia.

"The Truth" simply doesn't exist.
Misinformation, lies, cover-ups, false flags, gaslighting and other shenanigans is just how they live their lives.

 

We'll never know what really happened yesterday.

You can guess, second guess, third guess, double-think and conspiracy theory yourself into a mental tornado trying to work it out.

What's your point?

[Cade]

Speculation isn't worth the time, the only thing that matters is the consequences and what Poundland Stalin does next.

[Ulysses]

27 minutes ago, Cade said:

It's Russia.

"The Truth" simply doesn't exist.
Misinformation, lies, cover-ups, false flags, gaslighting and other shenanigans is just how they live their lives.

 

We'll never know what really happened yesterday.

You can guess, second guess, third guess, double-think and conspiracy theory yourself into a mental tornado trying to work it out.

 

 

Russia have caught four people.  By Tuesday, seven of the four will have confessed to being Ukrainian agents, working with the CIA.

[mrmarkus1981_1]

13 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

 

Russia have caught four people.  By Tuesday, seven of the four will have confessed to being Ukrainian agents, working with the CIA.

💯

[OBE]

34 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

 

Russia have caught four people.  By Tuesday, seven of the four will have confessed to being Ukrainian agents, working with the CIA.

 

With I hate, Putin tattooed on their tadgers or clits...what, what...?🤷‍♂️

Edited March 23 by OBE

[Cade]

1 hour ago, Ulysses said:

 

 

Russia have caught four people.  By Tuesday, seven of the four will have confessed to being Ukrainian agents, working with the CIA.

 

They'll also have confessed to stealing Shergar, being Lord Lucan and the sacking of Rome in 387 BC

[Ulysses]

9 minutes ago, Cade said:

 

They'll also have confessed to stealing Shergar, being Lord Lucan and the sacking of Rome in 387 BC

 

And why not?   

[Cade]

Sevastopol has been hit by a massive Ukrainian strike again, using modified S-300 missiles, hordes of drones and Storm Shadow missiles.

 

The two remaining Ropucha-class heavy landing ships of the Russian Black Sea Fleet were both hit, but we don't know how badly.

These ships can carry 500 tons of cargo and have been used to ferry military equipment direct from Russia to Crimea.

The Black Sea Fleet had 4 of them at the start of the war.
Two were destroyed earlier in the war and now it seems that the last two are also now out of commission.

 

The main communications and command centre of the Black Sea Fleet was also hit.

 

Other reports state that an air base close to Sevastopol was hit with several aircraft badly damaged or destroyed.

 

On the other side, Russia has gone back to trying to knock out every power station in Ukraine. 

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

8 hours ago, Cade said:

Sevastopol has been hit by a massive Ukrainian strike again, using modified S-300 missiles, hordes of drones and Storm Shadow missiles.

 

The two remaining Ropucha-class heavy landing ships of the Russian Black Sea Fleet were both hit, but we don't know how badly.

These ships can carry 500 tons of cargo and have been used to ferry military equipment direct from Russia to Crimea.

The Black Sea Fleet had 4 of them at the start of the war.
Two were destroyed earlier in the war and now it seems that the last two are also now out of commission.

 

The main communications and command centre of the Black Sea Fleet was also hit.

 

Other reports state that an air base close to Sevastopol was hit with several aircraft badly damaged or destroyed.

 

On the other side, Russia has gone back to trying to knock out every power station in Ukraine. 

 

[Cade]

Following Rheinmetall's example, the German/French arms manufacturer KNDS is building a factory in western Ukraine.

KNDS are responsible for the latest modification for Leopard 2 and are designing the next generation Main Ground Combat System which will replace Leopard.

 

This new facility in Ukraine will primarily be for servicing, repairs and spare parts, shortening the supply lines and keeping the Western equipment on the front lines for much longer.

Currently, it has to be shipped to Poland or Germany for repairs.

[highlandjambo3]

12 hours ago, Cade said:

 

KNDS are responsible for the latest modification for Leopard 2 and are designing the next generation Main Ground Combat System which will replace Leopard.

* I’m not clear what the future of manned (or unmanned) armour has on any potential future battlefield.  I mean £2m tanks are effectively being knocked out by £20k anti-tank missiles.  Our heavy modern western tanks seem to have fallen off the radar with limited effectiveness.  
 

The conflict in Ukraine has changed our view on combat effectiveness with the use of highly successful sea & air drones.  I’d imagine people controlling defence budgets will be very reluctant to procure heavy armour.  I get upgrading and modernisation of the current kit will likely be extended but new stuff, not so sure.
 

I do know that purchasing equipment goes through a lengthy research, development & testing process before being issued and many defence contracts will have already been signed so it’s not going to be a quick fix.
 

*not ITK 

[micole]

Just watched a BBC documentary called " Enemy in the woods", really hard hitting and bloody terrifying.

[Cade]

3 hours ago, highlandjambo3 said:

* I’m not clear what the future of manned (or unmanned) armour has on any potential future battlefield.  I mean £2m tanks are effectively being knocked out by £20k anti-tank missiles.  Our heavy modern western tanks seem to have fallen off the radar with limited effectiveness.  
 

The conflict in Ukraine has changed our view on combat effectiveness with the use of highly successful sea & air drones.  I’d imagine people controlling defence budgets will be very reluctant to procure heavy armour.  I get upgrading and modernisation of the current kit will likely be extended but new stuff, not so sure.
 

I do know that purchasing equipment goes through a lengthy research, development & testing process before being issued and many defence contracts will have already been signed so it’s not going to be a quick fix.
 

*not ITK 

 

"The end of the tank" has been a topic brought up ever since they first appeared on the battlefield.

Firstly it was held that heavy artillery kills tanks (which is true) but tanks still got used to great effect in WW2.

Then it was held that air power kills tanks (which is true) but tanks still got used throughout the Cold War.
Then it was held that man portable missiles kill tanks (which is true) but tanks still got used in Desert Storm and other places around the world.
And now it's held that drones kill tanks (which is true) but tanks are still the primary weapon for shock attacks and taking ground.

 

 

[trotter]

10 minutes ago, Cade said:

 

"The end of the tank" has been a topic brought up ever since they first appeared on the battlefield.

Firstly it was held that heavy artillery kills tanks (which is true) but tanks still got used to great effect in WW2.

Then it was held that air power kills tanks (which is true) but tanks still got used throughout the Cold War.
Then it was held that man portable missiles kill tanks (which is true) but tanks still got used in Desert Storm and other places around the world.
And now it's held that drones kill tanks (which is true) but tanks are still the primary weapon for shock attacks and taking ground.

 

 

Indeed. You can't occupy territory with a drone.

[highlandjambo3]

42 minutes ago, Cade said:

 

"The end of the tank" has been a topic brought up ever since they first appeared on the battlefield.

 

1.  Firstly it was held that heavy artillery kills tanks (which is true) but tanks still got used to great effect in WW2.

 

2. Then it was held that air power kills tanks (which is true) but tanks still got used throughout the Cold War.

3. Then it was held that man portable missiles kill tanks (which is true) but tanks still got used in Desert Storm and other places around the world.

 

And now it's held that drones kill tanks (which is true) but tanks are still the primary weapon for shock attacks and taking ground.

 

 

 

1.  Artillery will destroy a tank but, you’d need a direct top deck/turret hit, which would be more luck than judgment and, require X number of rounds to be successful….💰 Forward observation officers will drop HE rounds into a group of tanks to cause superficial damage (antennas, sights, rangefinders etc) and cause confusion but, they won’t saturate an area hoping to get a direct hit.

 

2. As with artillery, aircraft are a very expensive way to attack a tank, attack helicopters for all their technology are vulnerable…..cost of an apache vT90……..💰

 

3.  Man portable missiles do kill tanks but previously, guided missile launchers required a defilade shot (side on) which took time to get to the target as the operator had to “drive” the missile towards the target, this left the anti tank team very *vulnerable…..the tank had the advantage.

 

Previously the tank was a particularly formidable opponent due to its protection, mobility & firepower but now, with the introduction of a portable “top attack” (NLAW) weapons, this is a massive game changer.  Now I don’t know if there is any R&D programs that are currently looking to add more protection to the top of a tank turret…..if there is then this duel continues.

 

I’m more on the side of a cost effective tank deterrent that can be produced in vast numbers fairly cheaply.  You would consider aircraft and artillery would be classed as specialist equipment and used sparingly.  
 

 

* I did spend a total of 18 weeks at the anti tank school in Warminster learning how to attack these beasts and, it was never front on. I also spent 8 years in an anti tank platoon with 7th armoured brigade (the desert rats), 2 of those years I commanded the platoon……but of course that was quite a while back 😳

 

[henrysmithsgloves]

1 hour ago, highlandjambo3 said:

 

1.  Artillery will destroy a tank but, you’d need a direct top deck/turret hit, which would be more luck than judgment and, require X number of rounds to be successful….💰 Forward observation officers will drop HE rounds into a group of tanks to cause superficial damage (antennas, sights, rangefinders etc) and cause confusion but, they won’t saturate an area hoping to get a direct hit.

 

2. As with artillery, aircraft are a very expensive way to attack a tank, attack helicopters for all their technology are vulnerable…..cost of an apache vT90……..💰

 

3.  Man portable missiles do kill tanks but previously, guided missile launchers required a defilade shot (side on) which took time to get to the target as the operator had to “drive” the missile towards the target, this left the anti tank team very *vulnerable…..the tank had the advantage.

 

Previously the tank was a particularly formidable opponent due to its protection, mobility & firepower but now, with the introduction of a portable “top attack” (NLAW) weapons, this is a massive game changer.  Now I don’t know if there is any R&D programs that are currently looking to add more protection to the top of a tank turret…..if there is then this duel continues.

 

I’m more on the side of a cost effective tank deterrent that can be produced in vast numbers fairly cheaply.  You would consider aircraft and artillery would be classed as specialist equipment and used sparingly.  
 

 

* I did spend a total of 18 weeks at the anti tank school in Warminster learning how to attack these beasts and, it was never front on. I also spent 8 years in an anti tank platoon with 7th armoured brigade (the desert rats), 2 of those years I commanded the platoon……but of course that was quite a while back 😳

 

Usually the tank killers are the operators🤔👍🏻

[highlandjambo3]

1 minute ago, henrysmithsgloves said:

Usually the tank killers are the operators🤔👍🏻

Yes….the term operator is the person guiding the missile to the target……looking for a K kill (tank completely destroyed) or M kill (tanks mobility destroyed but the turret is still operating) 

[Sooperstar]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/25/russian-officials-lauding-torture-was-unthinkable-now-it-is-proud-to-do-so

 

 

[Sooperstar]

12 hours ago, micole said:

Just watched a BBC documentary called " Enemy in the woods", really hard hitting and bloody terrifying.

Just watched it now. Completely engrossing. 

[Cade]

Head of the FSB says that the terror attack was a CIA/MI6 operation

 

[Mikey1874]

16 minutes ago, Cade said:

Head of the FSB says that the terror attack was a CIA/MI6 operation

 

 

They are getting confused

 

 

[Mikey1874]

On 25/03/2024 at 10:21, micole said:

Just watched a BBC documentary called " Enemy in the woods", really hard hitting and bloody terrifying.

 

Although it was clearly very dangerous, you didn't really see that till they said at end that out of 99 men in unit, 66 were seriously injured and 10 killed. 

[Cade]

An update on the Sevastopol Harbour strike(s).

 

One of the two heavy landing ships was less badly damaged than previously thought. The Storm Shadow seems to have impacted the dock next to it, so the only damage it took was from debris and the pressure wave.

The other heavy landing ship has been pushed into a dry dock, so it obviously took heavy damage and had to be taken out of the water ASAP.

 

It now seems that the Ivan Khurs, a naval intelligence and electronic warfare ship was hit in the stern by a Storm Shadow and looks to have sustained heavy damage.

It's been tied up to another ship, so that probably means it's listing to one side.

Russia only has two of these ships, one in the Northern Fleet and this one in the Black Sea Fleet.

Ukraine had previously attacked this ship with a small naval drone late last year but this time they've punched a hole through it with a cruise missile.

[cosanostra]

On 26/03/2024 at 05:09, Sooperstar said:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/25/russian-officials-lauding-torture-was-unthinkable-now-it-is-proud-to-do-so

 

 

 

Can't even the imagine the quality of "life" this guys are facing. I try not to feel sorry for people who carry out murderous rampages on innocent people but goddamn these guys would have been infinitely better off not being taken alive.

[OBE]

Putin, after interrogating these bams, will tell the world, they all had Kyiv postcodes...

Edited March 27 by OBE

[SwindonJambo]

Chilling words from the Polish PM Donald Tusk. 

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-68692195

[Threedoorsdown]

10 hours ago, SwindonJambo said:

Chilling words from the Polish PM Donald Tusk. 

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-68692195

Sounds like a new tactic to get money out of our pockets.

 

They all have bombs that can take everyone out in seconds. It’s all a farce.

[Cade]

Even though Poundland Stalin has won his wee pretendy election, Russia seems to be trying to maintain the rate of progress they achieved in the run-up.

They're pushing westwards from both Bahkmut and Avdiivka, but as usual are getting pasted.

 

On the Avdiivka front they launched a huge attack with nearly 50 vehicles, 12 of them being IFVs with infantry both inside and hanging on to the outside. The rest of the force was tanks.
They ran into Ukrainian mines, artillery and ATGMs, lost all the infantry and therefor the attack was repulsed.

Some of the tanks involved appeared to be ancient T-62s.

 

Up near Bakhmut they're pressing towards Chasiv Yar through a forest which contains an old soviet-era nuclear bunker complex, so Ukraine is pretty well dug in up there and the Russians are losing men and materials at a huge rate there too.

 

With their artillery systems running out of barrels (and being destroyed in large numbers), Russia are relying more and more on their air power, having retrofitted tens of thousands of old dumb bombs with wing kits to turn them into gliding bombs, extending their range and also their accuracy (a bit).

Ukraine desperately needs either more air defence systems of the long-awaited F-16s in the air to counter this new threat.

 

Russia is demanding the arrest and extradition of several Ukrainian individuals they blame for the terror attack.

Bleating on about international law, of all things. Laughable.

 

The Czech purchase of 800,000 artillery shells has been completed after a bunch of other nations all chipped in. They'll be delivered shortly so that's a big boost for Ukraine.

A further 700,000 shells are available and the Czechs just need a few more nations to pitch in a bit more money.
France is sending another 78 Caesar artillery systems to Ukraine.
Denmark and Greece are exchanging their F-16s for F-35s, with a good deal of the F-16s being allocated to Ukraine.

There were a total of 45 F-16s pledged to Ukraine, but more are being pledged as the weeks roll by (albeit in smaller numbers, an extra 6 here, another 4 there)

 

The West (well, Europe) seems to be waking up and taking this seriously.
It was easy to send surplus stuff to Ukraine early in the war, but now that's all been used up and The West is actually having to make new stuff to send.

Factories are being built or upgraded and production is increasing sharply.

Poland, France and Czechia are taking the lead on keeping pressure on the rest of Europe to pull the finger out. The Baltic nations don't need any encouragement.

[Libertarian]

16 minutes ago, Cade said:

Even though Poundland Stalin has won his wee pretendy election, Russia seems to be trying to maintain the rate of progress they achieved in the run-up.

They're pushing westwards from both Bahkmut and Avdiivka, but as usual are getting pasted.

 

On the Avdiivka front they launched a huge attack with nearly 50 vehicles, 12 of them being IFVs with infantry both inside and hanging on to the outside. The rest of the force was tanks.
They ran into Ukrainian mines, artillery and ATGMs, lost all the infantry and therefor the attack was repulsed.

Some of the tanks involved appeared to be ancient T-62s.

 

Up near Bakhmut they're pressing towards Chasiv Yar through a forest which contains an old soviet-era nuclear bunker complex, so Ukraine is pretty well dug in up there and the Russians are losing men and materials at a huge rate there too.

 

With their artillery systems running out of barrels (and being destroyed in large numbers), Russia are relying more and more on their air power, having retrofitted tens of thousands of old dumb bombs with wing kits to turn them into gliding bombs, extending their range and also their accuracy (a bit).

Ukraine desperately needs either more air defence systems of the long-awaited F-16s in the air to counter this new threat.

 

Russia is demanding the arrest and extradition of several Ukrainian individuals they blame for the terror attack.

Bleating on about international law, of all things. Laughable.

 

The Czech purchase of 800,000 artillery shells has been completed after a bunch of other nations all chipped in. They'll be delivered shortly so that's a big boost for Ukraine.

A further 700,000 shells are available and the Czechs just need a few more nations to pitch in a bit more money.
France is sending another 78 Caesar artillery systems to Ukraine.
Denmark and Greece are exchanging their F-16s for F-35s, with a good deal of the F-16s being allocated to Ukraine.

There were a total of 45 F-16s pledged to Ukraine, but more are being pledged as the weeks roll by (albeit in smaller numbers, an extra 6 here, another 4 there)

 

The West (well, Europe) seems to be waking up and taking this seriously.
It was easy to send surplus stuff to Ukraine early in the war, but now that's all been used up and The West is actually having to make new stuff to send.

Factories are being built or upgraded and production is increasing sharply.

Poland, France and Czechia are taking the lead on keeping pressure on the rest of Europe to pull the finger out. The Baltic nations don't need any encouragement.

If you feel so strongly why don't you go and volunteer. Ukraine obviously needs every one they can get since they have nearly half a million dead. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/18/us/politics/ukraine-russia-war-casualties.html

[Konrad von Carstein]

9 minutes ago, Libertarian said:

If you feel so strongly why don't you go and volunteer. Ukraine obviously needs every one they can get since they have nearly half a million dead. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/18/us/politics/ukraine-russia-war-casualties.html

Very strange take on Cades post, and by strange I mean idiotic attention seeking.

 

 

@Cade keep up the excellent posting on this topic.

[Footballfirst]

16 minutes ago, Libertarian said:

If you feel so strongly why don't you go and volunteer. Ukraine obviously needs every one they can get since they have nearly half a million dead. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/18/us/politics/ukraine-russia-war-casualties.html

I take it that you are stoutly defending the Midlothian oblast, from your nuclear bunker in Penicuik-on-North-Esk, against those nazi Ukraine sympathisers from Glencorse barracks.

[highlandjambo3]

36 minutes ago, Cade said:

 

The Czech purchase of 800,000 artillery shells has been completed after a bunch of other nations all chipped in. They'll be delivered shortly so that's a big boost for Ukraine.

A further 700,000 shells are available and the Czechs just need a few more nations to pitch in a bit more money.
France is sending another 78 Caesar artillery systems to Ukraine.
Denmark and Greece are exchanging their F-16s for F-35s, with a good deal of the F-16s being allocated to Ukraine.

There were a total of 45 F-16s pledged to Ukraine, but more are being pledged as the weeks roll by (albeit in smaller numbers, an extra 6 here, another 4 there)

I heard that the UK are sending 100,000 military grade, fold flat, undetectable can openers, blast proof as well and can open a tin in under 5 seconds.

 

 

 

 

[Libertarian]

30 minutes ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

Very strange take on Cades post, and by strange I mean idiotic attention seeking.

 

 

@Cade keep up the excellent posting on this topic.

The tragedy of Ukraine is not a game. Ordinary people are being press ganged by Ukrainian militias and sent to their deaths on the front line fighting Americas proxy war. The Ukrainian people are basically being held hostage by several thousand Ukrainian Nazis. Ukraine will lose this war and there is every chance that there won't be a country called Ukraine at the end. Even if it does survive it will be a rump disfunctional state shorn of its industrial base and coastline. Those in the West who cheer from the sidelines are partly responsible for this tragedy.

[Konrad von Carstein]

39 minutes ago, Libertarian said:

The tragedy of Ukraine is not a game. Ordinary people are being press ganged by Ukrainian militias and sent to their deaths on the front line fighting Americas proxy war. The Ukrainian people are basically being held hostage by several thousand Ukrainian Nazis. Ukraine will lose this war and there is every chance that there won't be a country called Ukraine at the end. Even if it does survive it will be a rump disfunctional state shorn of its industrial base and coastline. Those in the West who cheer from the sidelines are partly responsible for this tragedy.

 

[Libertarian]

3 minutes ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

 

👍

 

[Mikey1874]

42 minutes ago, Libertarian said:

The tragedy of Ukraine is not a game. Ordinary people are being press ganged by Ukrainian militias and sent to their deaths on the front line fighting Americas proxy war. The Ukrainian people are basically being held hostage by several thousand Ukrainian Nazis. Ukraine will lose this war and there is every chance that there won't be a country called Ukraine at the end. Even if it does survive it will be a rump disfunctional state shorn of its industrial base and coastline. Those in the West who cheer from the sidelines are partly responsible for this tragedy.

 

1. Thousands of civilians were killed in the main Russian invasion areas.

 

2. Russia goes after key people murdering or kidnapping key officials. Lots still missing from the occupied and reclaimed areas.

 

3. Ukrainians in the occupied areas are basically forced to be Russian. Can't get any services without basically taking a Russian passport.

 

4. Thousands of people moved to Russia forcibly. Adults moved to poorer areas in Russia to help their economy and thousands of children 'adopted' forcibly with their parents not knowing where they are.

 

5. Russia wants to instal a pro Russian Government in Ukraine.

 

6. Still bombing civilian areas and destroying power. 

 

Which of the above do you support? If any of that happened here should Scotland just accept it.

[Libertarian]

55 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

1. Thousands of civilians were killed in the main Russian invasion areas.

 

2. Russia goes after key people murdering or kidnapping key officials. Lots still missing from the occupied and reclaimed areas.

 

3. Ukrainians in the occupied areas are basically forced to be Russian. Can't get any services without basically taking a Russian passport.

 

4. Thousands of people moved to Russia forcibly. Adults moved to poorer areas in Russia to help their economy and thousands of children 'adopted' forcibly with their parents not knowing where they are.

 

5. Russia wants to instal a pro Russian Government in Ukraine.

 

6. Still bombing civilian areas and destroying power. 

 

Which of the above do you support? If any of that happened here should Scotland just accept it.

1. 14,000 dead between 2014 & 2022 with Ukrainian indiscriminate shelling of Donetsk & Lugansk.

2. January 2024 Gonzalo Lira journalist died in Ukrainian prison. March 2024 A Ukrainian car bomb kills an election official in Berdyansk. November 2023 Mikhail Filipenko pro Russian politician murdered by Ukraine. May 2023 Ukraine attempts to murder Zakhar Prelepin pro Russian writer. There are many more examples, just do the research.

3. In 2014 after the overthrow of the democratically elected president of Ukraine in the CIA backed maiden the citizens of Mariupol & Crimea voted overwhelmingly to leave Ukraine and join Russia. The citizens of Donetsk & Lugansk took up arms after being attacked by the Ukrainian military.

4. Over 2 million refugees have left Ukraine for Russia 

5. Russia wants security. Since 2014 NATO trained and armed a Ukrainian army of 500,000. Opinion polls regularly revealed that only 20 per cent of the Ukrainian population wanted to join NATO.

6. 2024 Belgorod civilians indiscriminately bombed. 2014 - 2024 indiscriminate shelling of civilians in Donetsk & Lugansk by Ukrainian military.

 

Reading some of the comments on this thread one would think that Ukraine is a paragon of democracy and human rights.

[henrysmithsgloves]

11 minutes ago, Libertarian said:

1. 14,000 dead between 2014 & 2022 with Ukrainian indiscriminate shelling of Donetsk & Lugansk.

2. January 2024 Gonzalo Lira journalist died in Ukrainian prison. March 2024 A Ukrainian car bomb kills an election official in Berdyansk. November 2023 Mikhail Filipenko pro Russian politician murdered by Ukraine. May 2023 Ukraine attempts to murder Zakhar Prelepin pro Russian writer. There are many more examples, just do the research.

3. In 2014 after the overthrow of the democratically elected president of Ukraine in the CIA backed maiden the citizens of Mariupol & Crimea voted overwhelmingly to leave Ukraine and join Russia. The citizens of Donetsk & Lugansk took up arms after being attacked by the Ukrainian military.

4. Over 2 million refugees have left Ukraine for Russia 

5. Russia wants security. Since 2014 NATO trained and armed a Ukrainian army of 500,000. Opinion polls regularly revealed that only 20 per cent of the Ukrainian population wanted to join NATO.

6. 2024 Belgorod civilians indiscriminately bombed. 2014 - 2024 indiscriminate shelling of civilians in Donetsk & Lugansk by Ukrainian military.

 

Reading some of the comments on this thread one would think that Ukraine is a paragon of democracy and human rights.

Are you  JKB's lord haw haw?

[Threedoorsdown]

If WW3 is going to break out, if they could kindly do it before my last quarters British Gas bill is due I’d be grateful. 

[Malinga the Swinga]

3 hours ago, henrysmithsgloves said:

Are you  JKB's lord haw haw?

Nah, he's just acting like a ****

[henrysmithsgloves]

32 minutes ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

Nah, he's just acting like a ****

Sometimes I despair for folk 😔

[Tommy Brown]

6 hours ago, Libertarian said:

The tragedy of Ukraine is not a game. Ordinary people are being press ganged by Ukrainian militias and sent to their deaths on the front line fighting Americas proxy war. The Ukrainian people are basically being held hostage by several thousand Ukrainian Nazis. Ukraine will lose this war and there is every chance that there won't be a country called Ukraine at the end. Even if it does survive it will be a rump disfunctional state shorn of its industrial base and coastline. Those in the West who cheer from the sidelines are partly responsible for this tragedy.

FFS.

[Hansel]

28 minutes ago, Tommy Brown said:

FFS.

This

 

Every day is April fools for @Libertarian

[Cranston]

7 hours ago, Libertarian said:

The tragedy of Ukraine is not a game. Ordinary people are being press ganged by Ukrainian militias and sent to their deaths on the front line fighting Americas proxy war. The Ukrainian people are basically being held hostage by several thousand Ukrainian Nazis. Ukraine will lose this war and there is every chance that there won't be a country called Ukraine at the end. Even if it does survive it will be a rump disfunctional state shorn of its industrial base and coastline. Those in the West who cheer from the sidelines are partly responsible for this tragedy.

There are very few in the West now cheering or whooping. The reality of the war in Ukraine, and the possibility of it expanding has sobered up most who once did. My hope is that there will emerge the possibility of a truce and peace talks armed with reality and acceptance. WW3 at least in Europe is unavoidable if Putin and the West do not facilitate a peace summit sometime, hopefully soon. 

Edited April 1 by Cranston

[Mac_fae_Gillie]

4 hours ago, Threedoorsdown said:

If WW3 is going to break out, if they could kindly do it before my last quarters British Gas bill is due I’d be grateful. 

Just give them a low reading then rebalance it when the price drops.

[Cade]

40 minutes ago, Cranston said:

There are very few in the West now cheering or whooping. The reality of the war in Ukraine, and the possibility of it expanding has sobered up most who once did. My hope is that there will emerge the possibility of a truce and peace talks armed with reality and acceptance. WW3 at least in Europe is unavoidable if Putin and the West do not facilitate a peace summit sometime, hopefully soon. 

 

We had a peace summit in 1994 when Ukraine handed over their Nukes to the Russians, internationally recognised borders were established and security guarantees given to Ukraine.
Some people thought the Russians would be satisfied with that.

After Russia ignored all of that and called The West's bluff in 2014, we had another peace summit when Crimea and half of the Donbas was annexed.

Some people thought the Russians would be satisfied with that.

After Russia ignored that in 2022, we find ourselves in the current situation.

Now nobody is simple-minded enough to think that if they're allowed to keep what they have illegally annexed (again) they'd be content to stop there.

They'll simply re-build, re-arm and go once again, like they did in 2014 and again in 2022, because The West continues to piss about.

 

Eastern Europe knows this, the Baltic nations know this, Finland and Sweden know this.

France has sat up and paid attention, the Germans are slowly waking up, the UK is dithering and the USA cannot be trusted.
Turkey and India are sat on the fence, Hungary, Slovakia and Serbia are vocally supporting Russia. 
Belarus, Iran, North Korea and China are actively supporting Russia with military equipment.

 

Russia is either stopped in its tracks in Ukraine on this third attempt at physical domination of its neighbour or we have to face a resurgent and re-established USSR and a new, decades-long Cold War which will cost us trillions.
It really shouldn't be a difficult choice.

[Cranston]

1 minute ago, Cade said:

 

We had a peace summit in 1994 when Ukraine handed over their Nukes to the Russians, internationally recognised borders were established and security guarantees given to Ukraine.
Some people thought the Russians would be satisfied with that.

After Russia ignored all of that and called The West's bluff in 2014, we had another peace summit when Crimea and half of the Donbas was annexed.

Some people thought the Russians would be satisfied with that.

After Russia ignored that in 2022, we find ourselves in the current situation.

Now nobody is simple-minded enough to think that if they're allowed to keep what they have illegally annexed (again) they'd be content to stop there.

They'll simply re-build, re-arm and go once again, like they did in 2014 and again in 2022, because The West continues to piss about.

 

Eastern Europe knows this, the Baltic nations know this, Finland and Sweden know this.

France has sat up and paid attention, the Germans are slowly waking up, the UK is dithering and the USA cannot be trusted.
Turkey and India are sat on the fence, Hungary, Slovakia and Serbia are vocally supporting Russia. 
Belarus, Iran, North Korea and China are actively supporting Russia with military equipment.

 

Russia is either stopped in its tracks in Ukraine on this third attempt at physical domination of its neighbour or we have to face a resurgent and re-established USSR and a new, decades-long Cold War which will cost us trillions.
It really shouldn't be a difficult choice.

You want Nato boots on the ground against Russia, or wipe them them out with ever more powerful Nato weaponry? Really?

[Cade]

Just give Ukraine what they need and let them do the job.

Remember that we did give them legally binding security guarantees then decided to not actually provide those security guarantees.

If they had thought we'd abandon them, they'd not have handed the nukes over.

And also remember that the USA flew in two Senators (one from each party) and other diplomats to give speeches supporting the popular democratic revolution in 2014.

We've been involved since the start.

And remember that Ukraine is also an EU and NATO applicant and because of that, Russia has been made more determined to wipe it out; Ukraine becomes untouchable for the rest of time if they kick the Russians out, so Putin knows this is his final chance, so he's not going to stop, nor be happy with jus the bits he's taken, he wants the entire thing.

And so because we accepted their candidacy into both of those institutions, both of those institutions need to support Ukraine, short of boots on the ground.

Just give them what they need.

Remember that Iran, China and North Korea are openly arming Russia, so for anyone to moan about NATO/EU/anyone else arming Ukraine is laughable.

[Cranston]

22 minutes ago, Cade said:

Just give Ukraine what they need and let them do the job.

Remember that we did give them legally binding security guarantees then decided to not actually provide those security guarantees.

If they had thought we'd abandon them, they'd not have handed the nukes over.

And also remember that the USA flew in two Senators (one from each party) and other diplomats to give speeches supporting the popular democratic revolution in 2014.

We've been involved since the start.

And remember that Ukraine is also an EU and NATO applicant and because of that, Russia has been made more determined to wipe it out; Ukraine becomes untouchable for the rest of time if they kick the Russians out, so Putin knows this is his final chance, so he's not going to stop, nor be happy with jus the bits he's taken, he wants the entire thing.

And so because we accepted their candidacy into both of those institutions, both of those institutions need to support Ukraine, short of boots on the ground.

Just give them what they need.

Remember that Iran, China and North Korea are openly arming Russia, so for anyone to moan about NATO/EU/anyone else arming Ukraine is laughable.

Its not laughable, at all, in any way shape or form. Being gung ho against Russia, is risking WW3 against the most nuclear armed country in the world. There has to be efforts and energy in making renewed peace with Russia. Putin isn't going to be in power forever, and patience might pay off in the long term. There are very high stakes at play here, and defeating Russia is not the answer unfortunately.