Neilson and the plan B

[mitch41]

15 minutes ago, InternationalJambo said:

Jesus Christ. A loss and the moon howlers are out. We just sitting third in the league for a laugh aye? Other teams no started this season yet? What a load of absolute nonsense.

Moon Howlers if you want but who was right about Cathro & Levein. It you can’t see that Neilson is not up to the job it’s nobody’s fault but yours. Many teams have had very good players and failed where many teams have had average players and have performed way above what is expected. A manager is the most important job in any club and while we have Neilson we will fail to be the club we have the potential to be. 

[Pasquale for King]

11 hours ago, Rick Sanchez said:

To be fair, Neilson and Savage both knew the system we were playing. So the whole RWB situation is on both of them.

Savage can only go and find players the manager asks him too, it’s not his job to say you need a RWB. 

[NB GIN]

On 20/11/2021 at 17:20, suds66 said:

He's utterly clueless.

He has improved and I am not a fan but he is def doing better than I thought he would. The team is settled and the tactics are as well and I think he deserves time to see how we go this season 

We will finish third and if that’s the case why should be be sacked who would do better ?

[InternationalJambo]

36 minutes ago, mitch41 said:

Moon Howlers if you want but who was right about Cathro & Levein. It you can’t see that Neilson is not up to the job it’s nobody’s fault but yours. Many teams have had very good players and failed where many teams have had average players and have performed way above what is expected. A manager is the most important job in any club and while we have Neilson we will fail to be the club we have the potential to be. 

Lol.

[Section Q]

17 hours ago, mitch41 said:

Moon Howlers if you want but who was right about Cathro & Levein. It you can’t see that Neilson is not up to the job it’s nobody’s fault but yours. Many teams have had very good players and failed where many teams have had average players and have performed way above what is expected. A manager is the most important job in any club and while we have Neilson we will fail to be the club we have the potential to be. 

Take break mate.

[whyskey]

Take a step back and look at our results, against teams that play open football we have taken most of our points sevco, hibs celtic, and Dundee united twice. We struggle against teams that turns games into a battle, we have to many players that are lightweight when we play these type of teams. More physical players are needed especially away from home.

[TyphoonJambo]

13 minutes ago, whyskey said:

Take a step back and look at our results, against teams that play open football we have taken most of our points sevco, hibs celtic, and Dundee united twice. We struggle against teams that turns games into a battle, we have to many players that are lightweight when we play these type of teams. More physical players are needed especially away from home.

I know he's regarded as a defensive midfielder but I think it was crying out for Harring to put some bite into the middle. 

[Taffin]

5 minutes ago, TypoonJambo said:

I know he's regarded as a defensive midfielder but I think it was crying out for Harring to put some bite into the middle. 

 

100%.

 

If we were playing a 343 again (I didn't see this game in fairness) then the 3 centre backs and the 2 CMS are there to defend. The 3 forwards and the 3 WBs are there to attack.

 

We were better with Haring in the 2 at the start of the season imo, especially away from home

[TexasAndy]

Every team in the league, nay football, performs better at home.  It's not just a Hearts thing.  But we do need to work out ways of getting results at places like Fir park.  Motherwell were not interested in pretty football and went for the physical, direct approach which we couldn't cope with.  I have seen us do the very same to OF at Tynecastle over the years.   We are very much set up for free flowing games like the D Utd match but the reality is games like Saturday are more the normal in this league especially away from home.   Getting a good team together is one thing and we have pretty much achieved that.  Finding consistency and adapting to each challenge is the next step.  

[frankblack]

10 hours ago, mitch41 said:

Moon Howlers if you want but who was right about Cathro & Levein. It you can’t see that Neilson is not up to the job it’s nobody’s fault but yours. Many teams have had very good players and failed where many teams have had average players and have performed way above what is expected. A manager is the most important job in any club and while we have Neilson we will fail to be the club we have the potential to be. 

 

Give it a rest FFS.

 

You are like a stuck record who wants to sack the manager the first time we lose a game.  Doesn't matter who the manager is you will fill your breeks at the first bad result and spend thereafter to bump your gums on here calling for their head.  Every manager out thread going back twenty years must be full of your panic merchant rants.

 

Your credibility is non-existent.  If you can't deal with supporting a club like Hearts through its ups and downs then go find something else to do with your time.

 

 

[suds66]

10 hours ago, NB GIN said:

He has improved and I am not a fan but he is def doing better than I thought he would. The team is settled and the tactics are as well and I think he deserves time to see how we go this season 

We will finish third and if that’s the case why should be be sacked who would do better ?

Tend to agree with most of what you say NB however, it was so obvious what the problem was on Saturday afternoon and he didn't have the ability to change it.

I think he is limited. Like others have said he is a safe pair of hands but if we are going to progress as a team, I do not think Neilson is the man to take us forward.

Opinions about who could do a better job will be subjective. I like the work Davidson is doing at St Johnstone for example.

[Rockwell]

On 21/11/2021 at 09:23, Tommy Brown said:

👍

They say their capacity is 13750 I'd love to know how they were going to shoehorn nearly  another 6000 people in

Edited November 22, 2021 by Rockwell

[Tommy Brown]

1 hour ago, Rockwell said:

They say their capacity is 13750 I'd love to know how they were going to shoehorn nearly  another 6000 people in

 

I eventually found that the Davi Cooper Stand holds 4,500

 

Did we have fans in the Main stand?

Edited November 22, 2021 by Tommy Brown

[Rogue Daddy]

2 hours ago, suds66 said:

Tend to agree with most of what you say NB however, it was so obvious what the problem was on Saturday afternoon and he didn't have the ability to change it.

I think he is limited. Like others have said he is a safe pair of hands but if we are going to progress as a team, I do not think Neilson is the man to take us forward.

Opinions about who could do a better job will be subjective. I like the work Davidson is doing at St Johnstone for example.

The thing is.. he actually does. In our first game of the season against Celtic, after they equalised and were pinning us back - he took off GMS and put on Haring.  From that minute on, we were back in the game and eventually got the winner. A bit like taking one step back to move two forward.

 

The question is WHY wasn't the change made - everyone could see we were being bullied/overrun in midfield.. and from early on in the first half. Not to make a change was criminal and we got what we deserved. Eerily similar to the second half against Aberdeen. He (and his staff) just seem to be nowhere, some games.

 

I do agree with you that he is limited... but if we can all see what is going on in a game, why can/t he or his coaching staff. It was THAT obvious on Saturday.

[bobskeldon]

22 minutes ago, Rogue Daddy said:

The thing is.. he actually does. In our first game of the season against Celtic, after they equalised and were pinning us back - he took off GMS and put on Haring.  From that minute on, we were back in the game and eventually got the winner. A bit like taking one step back to move two forward.

 

The question is WHY wasn't the change made - everyone could see we were being bullied/overrun in midfield.. and from early on in the first half. Not to make a change was criminal and we got what we deserved. Eerily similar to the second half against Aberdeen. He (and his staff) just seem to be nowhere, some games.

 

I do agree with you that he is limited... but if we can all see what is going on in a game, why can/t he or his coaching staff. It was THAT obvious on Saturday.

As it was after 20 mins at Ibrox and Pittodrie! I find the whole thing quite baffling especially as Haring was outstanding in the only two away games we won at Paisley and Dundee.

[been here before]

35 minutes ago, Tommy Brown said:

 

I eventually found that the Davi Cooper Stand holds 4,500

 

Did we have fans in the Main stand?

 

Nope

 

Just the South Stand away end that holds 4,856 fans. Im sure I read in the programme its to be named after Tommy McLean.

 

The Davie Coooer stand only holds 2,373 and is for the home support.

[Hectormasson]

14 hours ago, mitch41 said:

Moon Howlers if you want but who was right about Cathro & Levein. It you can’t see that Neilson is not up to the job it’s nobody’s fault but yours. Many teams have had very good players and failed where many teams have had average players and have performed way above what is expected. A manager is the most important job in any club and while we have Neilson we will fail to be the club we have the potential to be. 

Spot on👍🇶🇦🇶🇦

[JamboGraham]

Not read the whole thread so possibly been mentioned but as it stands we have taken 16 from 21 points against the current top 6 but only 8 from 21 against the current bottom 6.

[JamboGraham]

Selected others against the current top 6 are; Aberdeen 8 from 27, Dundee Utd 8 from 18, Hibs 5 from 18 and Motherwell 5 from 21.

[JamboGraham]

And for balance against the current bottom six it's; Aberdeen 7 from 15, Dundee Utd 16 from 24, Hibs 10 from 15 and Motherwell 16 from 21.

[GinRummy]

14 hours ago, NB GIN said:

He has improved and I am not a fan but he is def doing better than I thought he would. The team is settled and the tactics are as well and I think he deserves time to see how we go this season 

We will finish third and if that’s the case why should be be sacked who would do better ?

He’ll get the time. There’s no question about it and our league position is very good.  Last season he stuck with 4-2-3-1 and it gradually became more and more defensive as the season went on leading to ‘the blip’ which I won’t bang on about. This season he seems determined to stick to 3-4-3 with the subs more often than not  just stepping in to replace like for like. Teams would have watched how Motherwell dealt with us on Saturday so he absolutely has to rethink how rigidly he sticks to formation and not just isolate the forwards by playing more defensively like he did last year. 

[The Tackle]

How is Naismith doing with his coaching badges? 

[JamboGraham]

Also worth noting that Aberdeen, Dundee Utd, Hearts, Hibs and Motherwell have collectively played 32 away games so far. 8 wins, 12 draws, 12 losses. Away wins are treasured items in this league. None of these clubs have won more than 2 away yet.

[JamboGraham]

For balance the collective home record is played 35; 19 wins, 6 draws and 10 losses. Aberdeen and Motherwell have 3 home losses, Dundee Utd and Hibs have two.

[JamboGraham]

So for me Plan B is less about overly worrying about what we do on the road; away games in our league are tough and no realistic rival is likely to overly pull away from us on that measure alone.

 

Our plan B has to be focussed on how we approach games against the weaker sides in the league. This is where we are losing points (in comparison to our rivals).

[soonbe110]

1 hour ago, Rogue Daddy said:

The thing is.. he actually does. In our first game of the season against Celtic, after they equalised and were pinning us back - he took off GMS and put on Haring.  From that minute on, we were back in the game and eventually got the winner. A bit like taking one step back to move two forward.

 

The question is WHY wasn't the change made - everyone could see we were being bullied/overrun in midfield.. and from early on in the first half. Not to make a change was criminal and we got what we deserved. Eerily similar to the second half against Aberdeen. He (and his staff) just seem to be nowhere, some games.

 

I do agree with you that he is limited... but if we can all see what is going on in a game, why can/t he or his coaching staff. It was THAT obvious on Saturday.

He made a big change after 59 mins on Sat replacing Woodburn with Boyce and going with Boyce and Gino up front with McKay in behind them. Clearly planning to play through the middle. Only five minutes later Moore is sent off so impossible to say if the change would have made a difference. 

[Pasquale for King]

9 minutes ago, JamboGraham said:

So for me Plan B is less about overly worrying about what we do on the road; away games in our league are tough and no realistic rival is likely to overly pull away from us on that measure alone.

 

Our plan B has to be focussed on how we approach games against the weaker sides in the league. This is where we are losing points (in comparison to our rivals).

I think all the stats you have provided just prove what’s been said so far on this thread, that against teams that battle he doesn’t have a plan B to change the game, his plan A isn’t working in these games either even after vowing to improve our away form. 
Challenging for second place this season with the uglies not at their best will not be achieved with the current tactics, especially away from home..

[GinRummy]

6 minutes ago, soonbe110 said:

He made a big change after 59 mins on Sat replacing Woodburn with Boyce and going with Boyce and Gino up front with McKay in behind them. Clearly planning to play through the middle. Only five minutes later Moore is sent off so impossible to say if the change would have made a difference. 

Do you think Haring or McEneff would have been a better sub. Other than some fairly decent longish balls to beat their press a few times, we struggled to create much. Switching the forwards round a wee bit wouldn’t have solved that problem imo. 

[Lfhearts]

9 minutes ago, soonbe110 said:

He made a big change after 59 mins on Sat replacing Woodburn with Boyce and going with Boyce and Gino up front with McKay in behind them. Clearly planning to play through the middle. Only five minutes later Moore is sent off so impossible to say if the change would have made a difference. 

5 minutes later than he changed it against Aberdeen, don't have much faith in him when it comes to changing formation to try and chase a game, looks lacking to me.

[Ex member of the SaS]

19 minutes ago, soonbe110 said:

He made a big change after 59 mins on Sat replacing Woodburn with Boyce and going with Boyce and Gino up front with McKay in behind them. Clearly planning to play through the middle. Only five minutes later Moore is sent off so impossible to say if the change would have made a difference. 

Yes but that was 40 minutes too late. Just how would they play through the middle when every time a player got the ball a Motherwell player pounced? As others were saying Haring change early on would be been the better move.

[Rogue Daddy]

29 minutes ago, soonbe110 said:

He made a big change after 59 mins on Sat replacing Woodburn with Boyce and going with Boyce and Gino up front with McKay in behind them. Clearly planning to play through the middle. Only five minutes later Moore is sent off so impossible to say if the change would have made a difference. 

 

This is still a bit too like-for-like for me. Swapping them about a bit wasn't going to do much against their midfield IMO. I would have replaced Gino with Haring (next/between Beni & Cammy) and went two up front. It worked against Celtic earlier in the season.

Edited November 22, 2021 by Rogue Daddy

[soonbe110]

38 minutes ago, GinRummy said:

Do you think Haring or McEneff would have been a better sub. Other than some fairly decent longish balls to beat their press a few times, we struggled to create much. Switching the forwards round a wee bit wouldn’t have solved that problem imo. 

Don’t know but think he made a positive change given we were 1-0 down and tried to change the way we were going at them. Priori to the change we had been trying to get down the wings, the change was, I think, an attempt to go through the middle. Maybe could have shored up midfield more but that would have left us short up front. 

[soonbe110]

38 minutes ago, Lfhearts said:

5 minutes later than he changed it against Aberdeen, don't have much faith in him when it comes to changing formation to try and chase a game, looks lacking to me.

Very few managers make changes before 60 minutes unless getting slaughtered. They always think they can get their original plan reinforced at half time and give them 10-15 mins of second half to see if they were listening. 

[soonbe110]

31 minutes ago, Ex member of the SaS said:

Yes but that was 40 minutes too late. Just how would they play through the middle when every time a player got the ball a Motherwell player pounced? As others were saying Haring change early on would be been the better move.

Because we had been spread way too wide first half with McKay and Woodburn almost hugging the touch lines and Gino running about spare. Nothing really changed first 10 of second half so he changed it to play much more through the middle.  May have worked because we would have matched them numbers wise in there. We will never know thanks to Moore’s brainstorm. 

[soonbe110]

33 minutes ago, Ex member of the SaS said:

Yes but that was 40 minutes too late. Just how would they play through the middle when every time a player got the ball a Motherwell player pounced? As others were saying Haring change early on would be been the better move.

Don’t think any manager will make a tactical substitution after 19 minutes. Unheard of so don’t understand why you are even suggesting it. 

[soonbe110]

26 minutes ago, Rogue Daddy said:

 

This is still a bit too like-for-like for me. Swapping them about a bit wasn't going to do much against their midfield IMO. I would have replaced Gino with Haring (next/between Beni & Cammy) and went two up front. It worked against Celtic earlier in the season.

That would have left us with only Woodburn and McKay up front?
He didn’t swap them about. We had been playing with McKay and Woodburn very wide and Gino on his own in the middle. The change was to have Gino and Boyce upfront together in the middle with McKay playing as a 10 behind them. 

[Bongo 1874]

Just now, soonbe110 said:

That would have left us with only Woodburn and McKay up front?
He didn’t swap them about. We had been playing with McKay and Woodburn very wide and Gino on his own in the middle. The change was to have Gino and Boyce upfront together in the middle with McKay playing as a 10 behind them. 

Robbie played with no strikers, confirming he doesn't trust or rate Gnanduillet

 

 

That's on him. 

Edited November 22, 2021 by Bongo 1874

[Bazzas right boot]

1 hour ago, JamboGraham said:

So for me Plan B is less about overly worrying about what we do on the road; away games in our league are tough and no realistic rival is likely to overly pull away from us on that measure alone.

 

Our plan B has to be focussed on how we approach games against the weaker sides in the league. This is where we are losing points (in comparison to our rivals).

 

1 hour ago, JamboGraham said:

For balance the collective home record is played 35; 19 wins, 6 draws and 10 losses. Aberdeen and Motherwell have 3 home losses, Dundee Utd and Hibs have two.

 

1 hour ago, JamboGraham said:

Also worth noting that Aberdeen, Dundee Utd, Hearts, Hibs and Motherwell have collectively played 32 away games so far. 8 wins, 12 draws, 12 losses. Away wins are treasured items in this league. None of these clubs have won more than 2 away yet.

 

1 hour ago, JamboGraham said:

And for balance against the current bottom six it's; Aberdeen 7 from 15, Dundee Utd 16 from 24, Hibs 10 from 15 and Motherwell 16 from 21.

 

1 hour ago, JamboGraham said:

Selected others against the current top 6 are; Aberdeen 8 from 27, Dundee Utd 8 from 18, Hibs 5 from 18 and Motherwell 5 from 21.

 

1 hour ago, JamboGraham said:

Not read the whole thread so possibly been mentioned but as it stands we have taken 16 from 21 points against the current top 6 but only 8 from 21 against the current bottom 6.

 

 

Great bit of work and information. 

[soonbe110]

Just now, Bongo 1874 said:

Robbie played with no strikers, confirming he doesn't trust or rate gnado. 

 

 

That's on him. 

After United  game everyone knows he is trying Gino through the middle so yes he played a striker.  Not sure Gino will be a success there, in fact I’d expect Boyce to start on Saturday. Nando is gone in just over a months time so why would he start him. If Hendo was not out on loan he would possibly have started. 

[Bongo 1874]

Just now, soonbe110 said:

After United  game everyone knows he is trying Gino through the middle so yes he played a striker.  Not sure Gino will be a success there, in fact I’d expect Boyce to start on Saturday. Nando is gone in just over a months time so why would he start him. If Hendo was not out on loan he would possibly have started. 

Gino is not a striker, he's showing his thoughts by benching Gnanduillet and playing a winger upfront instead of him. 

 

That is robbies choice, is Gnanduillet unfit? If so why is he taking up a place on the bench. 

[Rogue Daddy]

9 minutes ago, soonbe110 said:

That would have left us with only Woodburn and McKay up front?
He didn’t swap them about. We had been playing with McKay and Woodburn very wide and Gino on his own in the middle. The change was to have Gino and Boyce upfront together in the middle with McKay playing as a 10 behind them. 

I'm not saying you were wrong with regards to playing through the middle... I just thought the best 'play' would have been 2 up front (Boyce & Woodburn... or whoever) with adding Haring to midfield. This is exactly what he did against Celtic, and it changed the flow of the game. But, for some reason, he hasn't done this since then.

Moore getting sent off was the final nail however, so who knows.

[GinRummy]

6 minutes ago, Bongo 1874 said:

Gino is not a striker, he's showing his thoughts by benching Gnanduillet and playing a winger upfront instead of him. 

 

That is robbies choice, is Gnanduillet unfit? If so why is he taking up a place on the bench. 

I don’t know any hearts fans who wanted to go with a different front three than the one who started v Dundee United. 

[soonbe110]

6 minutes ago, Bongo 1874 said:

Gino is not a striker, he's showing his thoughts by benching Gnanduillet and playing a winger upfront instead of him. 

 

That is robbies choice, is Gnanduillet unfit? If so why is he taking up a place on the bench. 

Due to Boyce injury. Gino upfront through the middle worked against United. Tried it again on Saturday, who wouldn’t have?  It didn’t work this time so might not be tried again. You don’t have to be very clever to have realised that Gnando has no future with us and isn’t rated by the coaching team.  Has never really looked the part from day 1.  In fact  he hasn’t really looked interested from day 1 which is a big part of the problem I believe. Who was missing from the bench on Saturday that could have played up front?  I was surprised that he put Gnando on before GMS on Saturday. Better bet through the middle as we saw at the end of last season but currently short of confidence. 

[Rogue Daddy]

4 minutes ago, GinRummy said:

I don’t know any hearts fans who wanted to go with a different front three than the one who started v Dundee United. 

Yeah, I was hoping to see the same team who beat Dundee UTD... although I was a bit disappointed to see Smith at RWB. Think he should have slotted into Hallett's position and left Moore and Soapy where they played against Utd.

[soonbe110]

5 minutes ago, Rogue Daddy said:

I'm not saying you were wrong with regards to playing through the middle... I just thought the best 'play' would have been 2 up front (Boyce & Woodburn... or whoever) with adding Haring to midfield. This is exactly what he did against Celtic, and it changed the flow of the game. But, for some reason, he hasn't done this since then.

Moore getting sent off was the final nail however, so who knows.

Possibly it would have been I agree.  However without Gino and McKay there would have been no pace up front. I was just responding to posters saying he didn’t try to change things which clearly wasn’t the case. 

[Rogue Daddy]

Just now, soonbe110 said:

Possibly it would have been I agree.  However without Gino and McKay there would have been no pace up front. I was just responding to posters saying he didn’t try to change things which clearly wasn’t the case. 

👍

[soonbe110]

Just now, Rogue Daddy said:

Yeah, I was hoping to see the same team who beat Dundee UTD... although I was a bit disappointed to see Smith at RWB. Think he should have slotted into Hallett's position and left Moore and Soapy where they played against Utd.

With hindsight I agree with that though pre-game I was quite excited about Moore Soapy and Kingsley at the back. Not excited anymore though. 

[bobskeldon]

33 minutes ago, GinRummy said:

I don’t know any hearts fans who wanted to go with a different front three than the one who started v Dundee United. 

I wouldn’t have went with ANY 3, playing 3 at home against Utd is very different from playing 3 against Motherwell! At Ibrox (for 65 mins) and at Pittodrie, we really struggled with 3 and clearly we haven’t learnt any lessons which, for me, is slightly worrying. 

[Bazzas right boot]

1 minute ago, bobskeldon said:

I wouldn’t have went with ANY 3, playing 3 at home against Utd is very different from playing 3 against Motherwell! At Ibrox (for 65 mins) and at Pittodrie, we really struggled with 3 and clearly we haven’t learnt any lessons which, for me, is slightly worrying. 

 

 

Yet many posters bang on about not changing, imposing our game plan and almost everyone wanted the same set up v Dundee Utd. 

 

 

 

 

[GinRummy]

4 minutes ago, bobskeldon said:

I wouldn’t have went with ANY 3, playing 3 at home against Utd is very different from playing 3 against Motherwell! At Ibrox (for 65 mins) and at Pittodrie, we really struggled with 3 and clearly we haven’t learnt any lessons which, for me, is slightly worrying. 

In hindsight I agree. If I’m honest I just wanted a repeat of the Dundee United game. From very early on, it was obvious that wasn’t going to be the case. The players didn’t seem as confident or committed to me but you’re right about the formation. We needed an extra bit of dig in the middle of the park.