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Neilson and the plan B


Scott Leitch

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davemclaren
Just now, Pasquale for King said:

I’ve seen a few question him on the transfer thread tbh 😜

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Lord Beni of Gorgie

Plan B, people only want Plan A. Win playing like 1970 Brazil. Personally a turgid 1 0 win on the road pleases me just the same 

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Pasquale for King
16 minutes ago, Lord Beni of Gorgie said:

Plan B, people only want Plan A. Win playing like 1970 Brazil. Personally a turgid 1 0 win on the road pleases me just the same 

Results are the most important thing, especially away from home. Having a plan b ready and worked on that will hurt the opponents show you’ve done you’re homework, our coaching staff rarely get high marks for this. 

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soonbe110
2 hours ago, JimmyCant said:

How about you swat up a bit on company law, company boards, who gets to vote on a board and who doesn’t, then look at the Hearts board and see who represents the majority shareholding, and particularly see who DOESNT get to vote but is on the board as non executive.

 

if Ann budge holds more sway than her shareholding dictates it should, then the FOH board members on behalf of the owners (that’s us) and bast majority shareholders  have a duty to steer away from that, by removing her if necessary.

Maybe you that needs to do some studying. How many executive directors are there on the Hearts board for starters. Do you have any idea? Do you really think non-executive directors don’t have a say and a vote at Board meetings? 

Second one for now - the chair runs the meetings and usually has casting vote.  Do you think we are different? 
 

Don’t think you have a clue re the FoH/Hearts FC operating model that has been worked on for five years and is now in place. 

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3 hours ago, Pasquale for King said:

As she said nothing has changed, I’m not sure JA will have much of a say on whether the manager needs changed tbh. Not sure how you think she as the chairmen doesn’t have power but a director does? I’m not convinced anyone on the board knows the first thing about football if past decisions are anything to go by, do you?

Well she was in total charge till a few months ago share wise but if the CEO, DOF & FOH went to the Board about replacing Neilson she couldn’t overrule them as they know more about football and the fans views that anyone else in the club. This league is there for the taking and if we get our act together who knows 1st or 2nd are up for grabs.

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Pasquale for King
42 minutes ago, mitch41 said:

Well she was in total charge till a few months ago share wise but if the CEO, DOF & FOH went to the Board about replacing Neilson she couldn’t overrule them as they know more about football and the fans views that anyone else in the club. This league is there for the taking and if we get our act together who knows 1st or 2nd are up for grabs.

The people you mention didn’t and still don’t have the power to do that, the board makes those decisions. 
The FoH would need to call an EGM to replace the board. 
I couldn’t agree more about this league being up for grabs. 

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JimmyCant
4 hours ago, soonbe110 said:

Maybe you that needs to do some studying. How many executive directors are there on the Hearts board for starters. Do you have any idea? Do you really think non-executive directors don’t have a say and a vote at Board meetings? 

Second one for now - the chair runs the meetings and usually has casting vote.  Do you think we are different? 
 

Don’t think you have a clue re the FoH/Hearts FC operating model that has been worked on for five years and is now in place. 

So let’s get this straight then. You believe that Ann Budge, despite transferring most of her shares to FOH and despite her saying she is stepping back, still has a vice like grip of control of the club and nothing big can be done without her approval.

 

Do you think that’s what contributing members signed up to and the majority shareholding is happy to be at the beck and call of the minority shareholding. Like the tail wagging the dog ?

 

You also think that the manager can’t be sacked unless she personally pulls the trigger ? In fact if she wants to extend him for 5 years she can do that too without a quorum ?

 

I’ll ask you again if the above are true. What was the whole point of fan ownership if it’s left one minority shareholder in full control ? A minority shareholder, I’ll remind you, who is totally out of her depth running a football club.

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16 minutes ago, JimmyCant said:

So let’s get this straight then. You believe that Ann Budge, despite transferring most of her shares to FOH and despite her saying she is stepping back, still has a vice like grip of control of the club and nothing big can be done without her approval.

 

Do you think that’s what contributing members signed up to and the majority shareholding is happy to be at the beck and call of the minority shareholding. Like the tail wagging the dog ?

 

You also think that the manager can’t be sacked unless she personally pulls the trigger ? In fact if she wants to extend him for 5 years she can do that too without a quorum ?

 

I’ll ask you again if the above are true. What was the whole point of fan ownership if it’s left one minority shareholder in full control ? A minority shareholder, I’ll remind you, who is totally out of her depth running a football club.

 

The whole point of fan ownership was to safeguard the club's future, same as it was the last time you asked.

It's never been about fan control.

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soonbe110
7 hours ago, JimmyCant said:

So let’s get this straight then. You believe that Ann Budge, despite transferring most of her shares to FOH and despite her saying she is stepping back, still has a vice like grip of control of the club and nothing big can be done without her approval.

 

Do you think that’s what contributing members signed up to and the majority shareholding is happy to be at the beck and call of the minority shareholding. Like the tail wagging the dog ?

 

You also think that the manager can’t be sacked unless she personally pulls the trigger ? In fact if she wants to extend him for 5 years she can do that too without a quorum ?

 

I’ll ask you again if the above are true. What was the whole point of fan ownership if it’s left one minority shareholder in full control ? A minority shareholder, I’ll remind you, who is totally out of her depth running a football club.

Think you have replied to me instead of Pasquale - no surprise, you were all over the place last night. 

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JimmyCant
1 hour ago, soonbe110 said:

Think you have replied to me instead of Pasquale - no surprise, you were all over the place last night. 

I’m only trying to establish how it is that the major shareholder group has next to no say in the future of the club. 

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On 23/11/2021 at 14:41, jr ewing said:

Mixing it up a bit and making the opposition think about it would help, but is he capable mmmm maybe not. 

Yeah at times we probably need to adapt to the game quicker. But overall I am enjoying the way we are trying to play, it will take time. Savage needs to be given enormous credit here as Neilson has been given a very good squad here. Bring in a good striker and we are looking very decent.

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davemclaren
2 hours ago, JimmyCant said:

I’m only trying to establish how it is that the major shareholder group has next to no say in the future of the club. 

They have as much say as they want. 

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soonbe110
2 hours ago, JimmyCant said:

I’m only trying to establish how it is that the major shareholder group has next to no say in the future of the club. 

They have all the say they want to have. They have two members on the board through which they can get their views across. Future direction of the club is one of the boards key responsibilities, managing on a day to day basis is left to the executive team and the management team. As long as they are headed in the right direction no need for the board, never mind FoH, to get get involved. 

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31 minutes ago, NB GIN said:

Yeah at times we probably need to adapt to the game quicker. But overall I am enjoying the way we are trying to play, it will take time. Savage needs to be given enormous credit here as Neilson has been given a very good squad here. Bring in a good striker and we are looking very decent.

Time, more time, January transfer window, time more time, Summer transfer window, time, more time.

Now where have I heard this before mmm.    Oh that’s right Every Season.

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Vlad Magic
16 minutes ago, mitch41 said:

Time, more time, January transfer window, time more time, Summer transfer window, time, more time.

Now where have I heard this before mmm.    Oh that’s right Every Season.


 

I would bet good money you have a hissy fit and throw your Lego when your morning t doesn’t have enough sugar in it.

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3 hours ago, Vlad Magic said:


 

I would bet good money you have a hissy fit and throw your Lego when your morning t doesn’t have enough sugar in it.

I’m always calm, cool & collected. I have nerves of steel, I’m brave as a lion & know everything about football management. I keep telling you -

I’m a Legend in my own Mind.

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Vlad Magic
25 minutes ago, mitch41 said:

I’m always calm, cool & collected. I have nerves of steel, I’m brave as a lion & know everything about football management. I keep telling you -

I’m a Legend in my own Mind.


Knows everything about football management?

 

You want to replace Neilson.

 

You must have skipped the lesson where changing managers slows down the team building process.

 

Can’t have it both ways young apprentice.

 

 

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16 minutes ago, Vlad Magic said:


Knows everything about football management?

 

You want to replace Neilson.

 

You must have skipped the lesson where changing managers slows down the team building process.

 

Can’t have it both ways young apprentice.

 

 

Build a team !.  Joe Savage has done more than anyone in the last 6 years. But having good players is great but if your management of the team is poor your f####d. 

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Vlad Magic
48 minutes ago, mitch41 said:

Build a team !.  Joe Savage has done more than anyone in the last 6 years. But having good players is great but if your management of the team is poor your f####d. 


That’s a level of naivety I’ve yet to see. 

 

Im out.

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ToqueJambo

Wasn't plan B the hammering of D Utd at home with a brand new strike force? All season everyone had said if we lose Boyce we're doomed, but he had a plan B. Best performance in years.

 

I wish we'd kept exactly the same team for Well in fact or just Souttar for Halkett.

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JimmyCant
31 minutes ago, Agentjambo said:

He’s not got a plan B,apparently we just have to get better at plan A.

 

 

So his way of figuring out how to win away is to do the same things that caused you to lose away. No away win for 3 months ! The sooner this amateur is out the door the better. 

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King prawn

I don’t mind us sticking to a formation at the start of each game with the correct players in the correct positions. What I don’t understand is when we’re getting overrun in midfield, why we don’t put an extra man in there. 

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Fozzyonthefence
13 hours ago, ToqueJambo said:

Wasn't plan B the hammering of D Utd at home with a brand new strike force? All season everyone had said if we lose Boyce we're doomed, but he had a plan B. Best performance in years.

 

I wish we'd kept exactly the same team for Well in fact or just Souttar for Halkett.


It wasn’t a new system against Utd, therefore, not a plan B.  All he did was replace the injured Boyce with Ginnelly. In fact, it would appear that the man himself has just admitted he has no plan B but if you disagree with the manager, fair enough.

 

Personally I find that worrying.  One of the biggest problems with Levein was his arrogance / stubbornness.  It would appear that Neilson is similar.  Teams have sussed out how to play us now, as evidenced by the Motherwell and Aberdeen games.  It doesn’t take a football genius to realise that we’re going to get overrun in midfield when teams play 3 in the middle against our 2.  As a lot of posters have previously suggested, I’d like to see us try 3-5-2 in certain games. 

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Fozzyonthefence
8 minutes ago, King prawn said:

I don’t mind us sticking to a formation at the start of each game with the correct players in the correct positions. What I don’t understand is when we’re getting overrun in midfield, why we don’t put an extra man in there. 


Exactly. 

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JimmyCant
Just now, Fozzyonthefence said:


It wasn’t a new system against Utd, therefore, not a plan B.  In fact, it would appear that the man himself has just admitted he has no plan B but if you disagree with the manager, fair enough.

 

Personally I find that worrying.  One of the biggest problems with Levein was his arrogance / stubbornness.  It would appear that Neilson is similar.  Teams have sussed out how to play us now, as evidenced by the Motherwell and Aberdeen games.  It doesn’t take a football genius to realise that we’re going to get overrun in midfield when teams play 3 in the middle against our 2.  As have a lot of posters previously suggested, I’d like to see us try 3-5-2 in certain games. 

It’s not even a massive departure from the base system. Take one out of the front 3, play 2 up front. Put a strong holding midfielder in. Push Devlin and Beni 20 yards further up the park and put a press on. This idiot is going to keep going away with 2 lightweights in midfield and the same thing is going to keep happening.

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Smith's right boot
59 minutes ago, Agentjambo said:

He’s not got a plan B,apparently we just have to get better at plan A.

 

 

 

 

Good stuff. 

 

Trying to implement a way of playing and philosophy for the club. 

 

It is also generally working. 

 

No need to flap about like a headless chicken at the first sign of adversity. 

 

Too many folk get into a flap here. 

 

Cool heads required. 

 

 

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Smith's right boot
21 minutes ago, King prawn said:

I don’t mind us sticking to a formation at the start of each game with the correct players in the correct positions. What I don’t understand is when we’re getting overrun in midfield, why we don’t put an extra man in there. 

 

 

Fair. 

 

 

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JimmyCant
1 minute ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

 

Good stuff. 

 

Trying to implement a way of playing and philosophy for the club. 

 

It is also generally working. 

 

No need to flap about like a headless chicken at the first sign of adversity. 

 

Too many folk get into a flap here. 

 

Cool heads required. 

 

 

One win in 6. 2 losses out of 3. Time to try something different IMO

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The Grim Reaper
9 minutes ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

 

Good stuff. 

 

Trying to implement a way of playing and philosophy for the club. 

 

It is also generally working. 

 

No need to flap about like a headless chicken at the first sign of adversity

 

Too many folk get into a flap here. 

 

Cool heads required. 

 

 

 

😂

 

You live on a different planet to the rest of the Hearts support.

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Rogue Daddy
17 minutes ago, JimmyCant said:

It’s not even a massive departure from the base system. Take one out of the front 3, play 2 up front. Put a strong holding midfielder in. Push Devlin and Beni 20 yards further up the park and put a press on. This idiot is going to keep going away with 2 lightweights in midfield and the same thing is going to keep happening.

Thing is (and I've said this on another thread), he has actually done this before... first game of the season against Celtic. At 1-1 we were getting over run, he took off GMS and put on Haring. it changed the flow of the game in our favour and we won! Why he hasn't done this since is anyone's guess... but he got tremendous credit for that change, especially with it being Celtic.. and we actually looked better going forward!

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JimmyCant
3 minutes ago, Rogue Daddy said:

Thing is (and I've said this on another thread), he has actually done this before... first game of the season against Celtic. At 1-1 we were getting over run, he took off GMS and put on Haring. it changed the flow of the game in our favour and we won! Why he hasn't done this since is anyone's guess... but he got tremendous credit for that change, especially with it being Celtic.. and we actually looked better going forward!

He did the same thing at Ibrox and salvaged a very good point out of it too

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I have been critical of Neilson for his defensive mindset, however this season he has been playing a more open attacking game - good on him I say, however maybe it is time to tighten up away from home and grind out draws and the occasional wins.

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20 minutes ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

 

Good stuff. 

 

Trying to implement a way of playing and philosophy for the club. 

 

It is also generally working. 

 

No need to flap about like a headless chicken at the first sign of adversity. 

 

Too many folk get into a flap here. 

 

Cool heads required. 

 

 


To be fair Tosh you did recommend cool heads when Levein was dragging us into the mire…..

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kingantti1874
1 hour ago, Agentjambo said:

He’s not got a plan B,apparently we just have to get better at plan A.

 

 


hes so dumb sometimes - I don’t think I’ve heard anyone say we should abandon the system.. when it works it’s very good..

 

BUT when it isn’t working we need to recognise it and be able to make adjustments. 

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Ex member of the SaS

On the subject of a plan B, His latest statement shows he is a one trick pony and intransigent. I am happy for him to stay if only he would do what a manager is there to do. Look at how the team are playing and make changes to improve things. Too often he has taken off a player only to put a similar one on, instead of making a change that would influence the game.

A big part of a manager's job is to read the game and see where we are losing ground, Ie: a plan B.

Others have mentioned the changes made during the Celtic game so why did he not make the same change against Motherwell? By sticking to ONE formation/tactic he is leaving us open to every other team in the league knowing how we will play in every game. That is not how you win games.

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Smith's right boot
27 minutes ago, Thomaso said:


To be fair Tosh you did recommend cool heads when Levein was dragging us into the mire…..

 

Aye, but we're third now after promotion. 

 

Do turn the page. 

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Smith's right boot
5 minutes ago, Ex member of the SaS said:

On the subject of a plan B, His latest statement shows he is a one trick pony and intransigent. I am happy for him to stay if only he would do what a manager is there to do. Look at how the team are playing and make changes to improve things. Too often he has taken off a player only to put a similar one on, instead of making a change that would influence the game.

A big part of a manager's job is to read the game and see where we are losing ground, Ie: a plan B.

Others have mentioned the changes made during the Celtic game so why did he not make the same change against Motherwell? By sticking to ONE formation/tactic he is leaving us open to every other team in the league knowing how we will play in every game. That is not how you win games.

 

Lots of posters think the opposite. 

 

Many have posted we should impose our style of play on other teams and not tinker ever week. 

 

Folk have been banging on about this for ages. 

 

Some have any mentioned Bob tinkers too much. 

 

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Yeh after the latest article in the EEN my concern is growing. Not saying change the plan for home games as it has worked well. It should still be changeable away from home dependent on the opposition. Also players coming through the academy should be adaptable to different styles. 

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1 hour ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

Aye, but we're third now after promotion. 

 

Do turn the page. 


Never let them forget…..  😉

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2 hours ago, JimmyCant said:

So his way of figuring out how to win away is to do the same things that caused you to lose away. No away win for 3 months ! The sooner this amateur is out the door the better. 

 

Like every Plan made - it works well until someone punches you in the face!

 

Robbie's plan is fine until the other team disrupt it. Then he is clueless on how to make the necessary changes.

 

The number of times Fans look on despair at us being over run in Midfield, yet still he cannot see it until it is too late.

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Not really following this thread closely but am I right in thinking that we still have some contributors who doubt that Robbie is is a good manager?

 

 

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14 minutes ago, gowestjambo said:

 

Like every Plan made - it works well until someone punches you in the face!

 

Robbie's plan is fine until the other team disrupt it. Then he is clueless on how to make the necessary changes.

 

The number of times Fans look on despair at us being over run in Midfield, yet still he cannot see it until it is too late.


That was certainly evident at Aberdeen 🤷‍♂️

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3 hours ago, Rods said:

Yeh after the latest article in the EEN my concern is growing. Not saying change the plan for home games as it has worked well. It should still be changeable away from home dependent on the opposition. Also players coming through the academy should be adaptable to different styles. 

Interesting though that lots on here have criticised him, both first time and second spell, for tinkering, saying he shouldn’t worry about other teams, we are Hearts, just impose our formation on the opposition.  Now we have a number on here saying he needs to start tinkering. What’s it to be ? 
 

I know the answer - he can’t win with many whatever he does and whatever the results are. 

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58 minutes ago, soonbe110 said:

Interesting though that lots on here have criticised him, both first time and second spell, for tinkering, saying he shouldn’t worry about other teams, we are Hearts, just impose our formation on the opposition.  Now we have a number on here saying he needs to start tinkering. What’s it to be ? 
 

I know the answer - he can’t win with many whatever he does and whatever the results are. 

Just the results. 

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lost in space
57 minutes ago, soonbe110 said:

Interesting though that lots on here have criticised him, both first time and second spell, for tinkering, saying he shouldn’t worry about other teams, we are Hearts, just impose our formation on the opposition.  Now we have a number on here saying he needs to start tinkering. What’s it to be ? 
 

I know the answer - he can’t win with many whatever he does and whatever the results are. 

The problem is we are not imposing ourselves on the opposition often enough away from home, whether there is tinkering or not.

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Smith's right boot
1 hour ago, soonbe110 said:

Interesting though that lots on here have criticised him, both first time and second spell, for tinkering, saying he shouldn’t worry about other teams, we are Hearts, just impose our formation on the opposition.  Now we have a number on here saying he needs to start tinkering. What’s it to be ? 
 

I know the answer - he can’t win with many whatever he does and whatever the results are. 

 

 

 

It's generally the same crowd as well. 

They'll flip their argument to suit. 

 

 

It's actually quite amusing. 

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Smith's right boot
13 minutes ago, lost in space said:

The problem is we are not imposing ourselves on the opposition often enough away from home, whether there is tinkering or not.

 

Aye, that pesky other team defending, attacking, trying to win games. 

It is an issue. 

 

Tbh, If it wasn't for that we'd never lose a game. 

 

 

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lost in space
49 minutes ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

Aye, that pesky other team defending, attacking, trying to win games. 

It is an issue. 

 

Tbh, If it wasn't for that we'd never lose a game. 

 

 

Of course. We mostly have better players than the other teams though. We are using the same pool of players, home and away, yet not "bossing" often enough away from home.

No matter who you are, this is a concern - and changes need to be made.

Or do you think we should continue with same team/same formation/ same tactics - yet expect different results?

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