Mass clear out?

[fast_blood]

17 minutes ago, JimmyCant said:

Team needs improved but he wants to keep the team together. Is that not contradictory to you  

It doesn't say that though. He says squad needs improved. Players will inevitably move on and need replaced. 

[Neverforgetfiveone]

On 01/03/2021 at 09:24, GinRummy said:

Whether it does or doesn't I'm not totally sure. The two CB's just need to do their job to the level required, regardless of the formation. They really haven't done that consistently for close to three seasons. 

 

4-3-3 is a formation that RN himself said 'would probably suit the players best' so why we haven't seen it yet I have no idea.

Because the 4-3-3 system relays on pace from the front 3, of which GMS, LB and SN are as slow as a week in the jail! The 3 midfielders need to be able to cover the ground. AI and McE could probably cope but SN, PH, JW nae chance! This is a 4-4-2 lump it up to no one up front squad... build, overseen and destroyed by years of shocking recruitment!

[Neverforgetfiveone]

Just now, Neverforgetfiveone said:

Because the 4-3-3 system relays on pace from the front 3, of which GMS, LB and SN are as slow as a week in the jail! The 3 midfielders need to be able to cover the ground. AI and McE could probably cope but SN, PH, JW nae chance! This is a 4-4-2 lump it up to no one up front squad... build, overseen and destroyed by years of shocking recruitment!

Whoever resigned Jamie Walker should sit in the corner facing the wall... for the rest of their life!

[GinRummy]

3 minutes ago, Neverforgetfiveone said:

Because the 4-3-3 system relays on pace from the front 3, of which GMS, LB and SN are as slow as a week in the jail! The 3 midfielders need to be able to cover the ground. AI and McE could probably cope but SN, PH, JW nae chance! This is a 4-4-2 lump it up to no one up front squad... build, overseen and destroyed by years of shocking recruitment!

So my opinion aside, it’s probably more pertinent to wonder why robbie thinks 4-3-3 is ‘the formation that would probably suit the players best’. Just trying to bluff the opposition maybe.

 

agree completely about the poor recruitment.

Edited March 11, 2021 by GinRummy

[Guest ToqueJambo]

5 minutes ago, Neverforgetfiveone said:

Because the 4-3-3 system relays on pace from the front 3, of which GMS, LB and SN are as slow as a week in the jail! The 3 midfielders need to be able to cover the ground. AI and McE could probably cope but SN, PH, JW nae chance! This is a 4-4-2 lump it up to no one up front squad... build, overseen and destroyed by years of shocking recruitment!

 

From the players we signed, Ginnelly, GMS and Gnando all have enough pace to playing a front 3 and Walker has enough skill to do it. Henderson can play in a front 3. I think we should have kept Wighton for it as well. 

 

It's not all about pace though. Crabbe, Clark and Robbo all played in very good front 3s for us and none were exactly known for their pace.

 

We played 4-4-2 with a diamond against Dundee and it worked quite well. We weren't lumping it up.

Edited March 11, 2021 by ToqueJambo

[Guest ToqueJambo]

Just now, GinRummy said:

So my opinion aside, it’s probably more pertinent to wonder why robbie thinks 4-3-3 is ‘the formation that would probably suit the players best’. Just trying to bluff the opposition maybe.

 

Lots of people agree with him. We absolutely have the players to do it, especially in this league.

[GinRummy]

5 minutes ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

Lots of people agree with him. We absolutely have the players to do it, especially in this league.

If we’re talking formations I quite liked the 4-2-3-1 when we first played it but it seemed to go stale and he took too much time to change it. I liked the shape on Saturday and would be happy to see us continue with that. As for 4-3-3? Thinking about who the three would be in both midfield and attack, I don’t see why not. It’s legs in midfield you need for it and McEneff and Halliday seem to have decent engines. Maybe once guys like GMS and Gnando get up to speed we’ll see it. 

[Guest ToqueJambo]

2 minutes ago, GinRummy said:

If we’re talking formations I quite liked the 4-2-3-1 when we first played it but it seemed to go stale and he took too much time to change it. I liked the shape on Saturday and would be happy to see us continue with that. As for 4-3-3? Thinking about who the three would be in both midfield and attack, I don’t see why not. It’s legs in midfield you need for it and McEneff and Halliday seem to have decent engines. Maybe once guys like GMS and Gnando get up to speed we’ll see it. 

 

I grew up with Robbo, JC and Clark so I like a nippy winger/wing forward, a big target man type and a striker. Crabbe, JC and Robbo were a great combo though - our Messi, Naymar and Suarez 😄. It's all about how they play together and having the right midfielders as you say.

[GinRummy]

1 minute ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

I grew up with Robbo, JC and Clark so I like a nippy winger/wing forward, a big target man type and a striker. Crabbe, JC and Robbo were a great combo though - our Messi, Naymar and Suarez 😄. It's all about how they play together and having the right midfielders as you say.

Same here. 51 this year. Great to watch those three back in the day. 

[Neverforgetfiveone]

2 hours ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

From the players we signed, Ginnelly, GMS and Gnando all have enough pace to playing a front 3 and Walker has enough skill to do it. Henderson can play in a front 3. I think we should have kept Wighton for it as well. 

 

It's not all about pace though. Crabbe, Clark and Robbo all played in very good front 3s for us and none were exactly known for their pace.

 

We played 4-4-2 with a diamond against Dundee and it worked quite well. We weren't lumping it up.

Agree that Ginnelly and possibly Robert’s were in the thought of wide players and either Boyce/Naismith as a 3 upfront. I think we have become a 4-4-2 side by default through this season due to injuries. We can get away with 4-4-2 in this division but decent 4-3-3 sides in the Premiership will rip us to bits. Too Square, too slow, too predictable.
 

Must be addressed, I’d be amazed if the DoF and Neilson are not working on that right now.

[Batistuta87]

3 hours ago, Costanza said:

Still makes me laugh/gives me nightmares reading this.

 

"A popular player with bags of talent and determination, former Reds boss Jose Mourinho has predicted his compatriot will become the outstanding Portuguese goalkeeper of his generation."

 

https://www.manutd.com/en/players-and-staff/detail/joel-castro-pereira#

 

😂😂😂😂

Really does give you the shivers doesn't it 😳

 

[mitch41]

18 hours ago, soonbe110 said:

How do you keep 48 players match fit? How do keep the 30 that don’t get stripped on a Saturday content? How do you pay all those wages with your income running at 50% of what it was? 

By playing games against other teams. I happens now and it can be ramped up.There will be loans to other clubs if the management think they best for the individual player. In years to come if the Academy gets it’s act together but at this moment in time most would agree that this part of the operation has to improve.

[JamboAl]

7 minutes ago, mitch41 said:

By playing games against other teams. I happens now and it can be ramped up.There will be loans to other clubs if the management think they best for the individual player. In years to come if the Academy gets it’s act together but at this moment in time most would agree that this part of the operation has to improve.

 

You wouldn't need to play other teams, Mitch.  With 48 players you could make up 4 separate teams and play each other as part of training .  Even allowing for injuries you could easily make up 3 teams with the fringe players always being picked for one of the teams  BUT

I think you overlooked the other question you were asked as below

 

How do you pay all those wages with your income running at 50% of what it was? 

[mitch41]

12 hours ago, JamboAl said:

 

You wouldn't need to play other teams, Mitch.  With 48 players you could make up 4 separate teams and play each other as part of training .  Even allowing for injuries you could easily make up 3 teams with the fringe players always being picked for one of the teams  BUT

I think you overlooked the other question you were asked as below

 

How do you pay all those wages with your income running at 50% of what it was? 

Good question. By being successful and filling Tynie every home game and Playing attractive, attacking football.

Remember it’s the Scottish Premiership we play in not the English Premier League and the only team that is any good just now is Rangers. We shouldn’t be worried by the rest.

[jimbojambo]

We'll need 18 players stripped every matchday next season so will probably need a playing staff around double that number including youngsters who have earned their first contract in my opinion. Might take a couple of seasons to get down to that number as any player with a decent length left on their contract will be in no hurry to leave in the current climate. 

[JamboAl]

8 hours ago, mitch41 said:

Good question. By being successful and filling Tynie every home game and Playing attractive, attacking football.

Remember it’s the Scottish Premiership we play in not the English Premier League and the only team that is any good just now is Rangers. We shouldn’t be worried by the rest.

Unfortunately these two highlighted points don't always go hand in hand nor do you need 48 players to achieve it.

[GinRummy]

6 minutes ago, JamboAl said:

Unfortunately these two highlighted points don't always go hand in hand nor do you need 48 players to achieve it.

48 players is too much. I disagree with your other point though. Every successful hearts team I can remember played attractive attacking football and were good to watch. I think it’s a myth that the two don’t always go hand in hand. 

[soonbe110]

8 hours ago, mitch41 said:

Good question. By being successful and filling Tynie every home game and Playing attractive, attacking football.

Remember it’s the Scottish Premiership we play in not the English Premier League and the only team that is any good just now is Rangers. We shouldn’t be worried by the rest.

Do you really think Tynecastle will have any ‘full crowd’ games in the next 6-9 months? Even if we do you have to remember that the majority of those attending will have significant credits carried forward against next seasons season ticket. Not all will take the credit but many will. Budge has already said it’s likely to take three years to get our income back to where it was pre-pandemic. I like your positive ambition but fear it’s not in the least way possible. 

[JamboAl]

51 minutes ago, GinRummy said:

48 players is too much. I disagree with your other point though. Every successful hearts team I can remember played attractive attacking football and were good to watch. I think it’s a myth that the two don’t always go hand in hand. 

I didn't say they don't ever go hand in hand.  I said they don't always go hand in hand.

[GinRummy]

1 minute ago, JamboAl said:

I didn't say they don't ever go hand in hand.  I said they don't always go hand in hand.

That’s true I suppose. Will concede that one. 

[mitch41]

5 hours ago, JamboAl said:

Unfortunately these two highlighted points don't always go hand in hand nor do you need 48 players to achieve it.

48 players is the total number of the playing staff from 16 year olds upwards. 

 

[DH1986]

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/sport/football/hearts/hearts-plan-for-summer-signings-and-players-leaving-3170568

[Batistuta87]

10 minutes ago, DH1986 said:

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/sport/football/hearts/hearts-plan-for-summer-signings-and-players-leaving-3170568

 

Sounding like everyone who is out of contract at the end of the season will be a goner apart from Irving (if he accepts our offer).

 

Not really too bothered either way at this point and I now just want the season over with and for the rebuild to start. Other than one or two exceptions, nobody is indispensible. 

 

Edited March 19, 2021 by Batistuta87

[Juho_Makela_Goal_Machine]

35 minutes ago, DH1986 said:

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/sport/football/hearts/hearts-plan-for-summer-signings-and-players-leaving-3170568

 

Fine with all those mentioned leaving. Obviously tough to see Cochrane go as the expectations for him were so high, but that Celtic game was 3 and a half years ago now. Can't hold on to that forever. Hopefully we can work something out with Damour and get him out the door as well. That would leave us short a LB, RB, CB, and probably 2 wingers, and obviously looking to add quality in all other positions if the right player becomes available.

[ford donald]

27 minutes ago, Batistuta87 said:

 

Sounding like everyone who is out of contract at the end of the season will be a goner apart from Irving (if he accepts our offer).

 

Not really too bothered either way at this point and I now just want the season over with and for the rebuild to start. Other than one or two exceptions, nobody is indispensible. 

 

We need better quality players and a smaller squad,too many passengers.

[GinRummy]

 

“There are a number of positions where we're looking to recruit and that [centre-back] is an area where we're trying to get somebody,” he said.

"We have a lot of players that are moving out in the summer, so there are a lot of areas we need to strengthen in. We're looking to improve in all areas right the way through the team.

“I don't want to put a number on it but there will be changes. The summer is going to be similar to January in that there will still be uncertainty about crowds coming back in and uncertainty about budgets for everyone. For us it's just making sure that, when we start the season, we've improved the squad”

 

RN’s quotes from linked article. 

[john thomas]

57 minutes ago, Juho_Makela_Goal_Machine said:

 

Fine with all those mentioned leaving. Obviously tough to see Cochrane go as the expectations for him were so high, but that Celtic game was 3 and a half years ago now. Can't hold on to that forever. Hopefully we can work something out with Damour and get him out the door as well. That would leave us short a LB, RB, CB, and probably 2 wingers, and obviously looking to add quality in all other positions if the right player becomes available.

Real shame if Cochrane goes . That Celtic game showed what he is capable of . He dominated Brown which , despite what some think , is not easy .

[Nookie Bear]

On 13/03/2021 at 10:03, soonbe110 said:

Do you really think Tynecastle will have any ‘full crowd’ games in the next 6-9 months? Even if we do you have to remember that the majority of those attending will have significant credits carried forward against next seasons season ticket. Not all will take the credit but many will. Budge has already said it’s likely to take three years to get our income back to where it was pre-pandemic. I like your positive ambition but fear it’s not in the least way possible. 

 

Are we not playing against teams in much worse financial peril than us, though? We even got £500k from the government, which the SPL did not.

[kila]

No extension for Berra then?

[JamboAl]

6 minutes ago, Nookie Bear said:

 

Are we not playing against teams in much worse financial peril than us, though? We even got £500k from the government, which the SPL did not.

We play against teams in a worst financial peril even in normal times and the Ugly Sisters do it every season.

[portobellojambo1]

Player arrivals/departures are just part of the game, these things happen. As for income, and when it will return to normal, I think the 3 year period being stated is probably very flexible, in as much as I don't think it is possible even yet to know the correct period.

 

When will full attendences be allowed to return to games, when will the hospitality suites, the club shop reopen, so it may well be just a rough timescale given at this stage, but normality could return much earlier.

 

In terms of the names I've read as probably/possibly leaving at this stage the only two I'd like to see the club look to retain are Harry Cochrane and Andy Irving. We've seen what both can do and I'm just a bit perturbed/confused as to what has happened to Cochrane. As for Irving, I have to say that what I read does suggest to me that he is being given a fair bit of misguidance by his agent. He will earn based on performance, and he is far from the real deal yet. Still has a lot of learning to do, HMFC may well give him the time to complete that learning, other bigger clubs may not. I think he'd be a wise young man to take a further deal from HMFC, continue to progress and make his mark and then move on to another club if big money is really the most important aspect to him and/or his agent.

[JamboAl]

1 hour ago, portobellojambo1 said:

Player arrivals/departures are just part of the game, these things happen. As for income, and when it will return to normal, I think the 3 year period being stated is probably very flexible, in as much as I don't think it is possible even yet to know the correct period.

 

When will full attendences be allowed to return to games, when will the hospitality suites, the club shop reopen, so it may well be just a rough timescale given at this stage, but normality could return much earlier.

 

In terms of the names I've read as probably/possibly leaving at this stage the only two I'd like to see the club look to retain are Harry Cochrane and Andy Irving. We've seen what both can do and I'm just a bit perturbed/confused as to what has happened to Cochrane. As for Irving, I have to say that what I read does suggest to me that he is being given a fair bit of misguidance by his agent. He will earn based on performance, and he is far from the real deal yet. Still has a lot of learning to do, HMFC may well give him the time to complete that learning, other bigger clubs may not. I think he'd be a wise young man to take a further deal from HMFC, continue to progress and make his mark and then move on to another club if big money is really the most important aspect to him and/or his agent.

I'd guess he will get bonuses paid on the team's performance and that could be an impediment to renewing his contract.  He may be looking for security and perhaps. a decent length contract, say 5 years.

I don't know his circumstances but it would not be uncommon for a 20 year old to be engaged or in a serious relationship with the possibilty of marriage, house purchase, children, all within that 5 year period.  If I were in that situation I'd be looking for a higher basic to provide some degree of certainty rather than have to rely on a winning bonus which inevitably would depend on the performance of the team as a whole even if I were the star man in every game.  And if I get a longish term injury or be dropped because of a form loss, do I qualify for win bonuses?

All of the above is of course theoretical but if it were the case it begs the question as to whether we sacrifice the wage structure, the player or can we have an individually tailored wage basis.

[Batistuta87]

2 hours ago, john thomas said:

Real shame if Cochrane goes . That Celtic game showed what he is capable of . He dominated Brown which , despite what some think , is not easy .

 

I think we need to get over this Harry Cochrane thing. He has literally had one or two good games, three years ago.

 

Since then he's struggled to make any impact 1) in our first team, 2) in our Reserves, 3) at Dunfermline and 4) at Morton.

 

(In fairness I'm not sure how he's doing at Morton, but that's the point - haven't heard anything, so he obviously isn't smashing it).

 

Edited March 19, 2021 by Batistuta87

[fast_blood]

4 minutes ago, Batistuta87 said:

 

I think we need to get over this Harry Cochrane thing. He has literally had one or two good games, three years ago.

 

Since then he's struggled to make any impact 1) in our first team, 2) in our Reserves, 3) at Dunfermline and 4) at Morton.

 

(In fairness I'm not sure how he's doing at Morton, but that's the point - haven't heard anything, so he obviously isn't smashing it).

 

He's not at morton, it's montrose 

[Stu_HMFC]

24 minutes ago, fast_blood said:

He's not at morton, it's montrose 

Regardless if he is at Morton or Montrose Batistuta is right.  Harry had a no bad season over 3 years ago and never progressed. If he was going to make it he would be in and around the first team or even on the bench but he has dropped into league one on loan and overtaken by Henderson and Irving in getting first team chances. I think there is more going on with him than what meets the eye,I've heard it was down to his attitude makes sense to run down the contract and free him in the summer if he isn't going to be in RN plans. 

[Stu_HMFC]

37 minutes ago, Batistuta87 said:

 

I think we need to get over this Harry Cochrane thing. He has literally had one or two good games, three years ago.

 

Since then he's struggled to make any impact 1) in our first team, 2) in our Reserves, 3) at Dunfermline and 4) at Morton.

 

(In fairness I'm not sure how he's doing at Morton, but that's the point - haven't heard anything, so he obviously isn't smashing it).

 

Agree 

[Batistuta87]

44 minutes ago, fast_blood said:

He's not at morton, it's montrose 

Montrose - apologies. That's worse than Morton lol.

Edited March 19, 2021 by Batistuta87

[john thomas]

1 hour ago, Batistuta87 said:

 

I think we need to get over this Harry Cochrane thing. He has literally had one or two good games, three years ago.

 

Since then he's struggled to make any impact 1) in our first team, 2) in our Reserves, 3) at Dunfermline and 4) at Morton.

 

(In fairness I'm not sure how he's doing at Morton, but that's the point - haven't heard anything, so he obviously isn't smashing it).

 

Just pointing out what he is capable of . If he can't play consistently at that standard then its a real shame

[Hearts1975]

1 hour ago, Batistuta87 said:

 

I think we need to get over this Harry Cochrane thing. He has literally had one or two good games, three years ago.

 

Since then he's struggled to make any impact 1) in our first team, 2) in our Reserves, 3) at Dunfermline and 4) at Morton.

 

(In fairness I'm not sure how he's doing at Morton, but that's the point - haven't heard anything, so he obviously isn't smashing it).

 

It’s a very good point that you make 

I never expected it in all honesty. I don’t think any of us did 

Can remember thinking after the septic demolition at home, that the boy would become a real star for us and go on to greater things in the game 

It wasn’t that long ago, but he has just literally fell off the planet since 

Such a shame and a waste of talent if this is the case - whether that be attitude or something else 

[fast_blood]

1 hour ago, Stu_HMFC said:

Regardless if he is at Morton or Montrose Batistuta is right.  Harry had a no bad season over 3 years ago and never progressed. If he was going to make it he would be in and around the first team or even on the bench but he has dropped into league one on loan and overtaken by Henderson and Irving in getting first team chances. I think there is more going on with him than what meets the eye,I've heard it was down to his attitude makes sense to run down the contract and free him in the summer if he isn't going to be in RN plans. 

 

I was pointing out the error, not disagreeing with his point. 

 

I think Harry may have thought he'd already made it after his previous run in the team. He's never kicked on and still seems to have the physique of a young teenager. It's a shame to be honest. 

[Mr Brightside]

4 hours ago, JamboAl said:

I'd guess he will get bonuses paid on the team's performance and that could be an impediment to renewing his contract.  He may be looking for security and perhaps. a decent length contract, say 5 years.

I don't know his circumstances but it would not be uncommon for a 20 year old to be engaged or in a serious relationship with the possibilty of marriage, house purchase, children, all within that 5 year period.  If I were in that situation I'd be looking for a higher basic to provide some degree of certainty rather than have to rely on a winning bonus which inevitably would depend on the performance of the team as a whole even if I were the star man in every game.  And if I get a longish term injury or be dropped because of a form loss, do I qualify for win bonuses?

All of the above is of course theoretical but if it were the case it begs the question as to whether we sacrifice the wage structure, the player or can we have an individually tailored wage basis.

Not many people in there early 20s get married or buy a house these days. More likely to happen in late 20s early 30s. I would be surprised if providing for a wife and kids is at the forefront of Andy Irving’s thinking.

[JamboAl]

2 hours ago, Mr Brightside said:

Not many people in there early 20s get married or buy a house these days. More likely to happen in late 20s early 30s. I would be surprised if providing for a wife and kids is at the forefront of Andy Irving’s thinking.

Perhaps because not many people earn as much as footballers and they don't need to get married to buy bricks and mortar.