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Mass clear out?


GinRummy

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5 hours ago, heartmussel said:

I believe Kerr is one of Hibs main targets

He's Hibbee for sure and could replace Porteous when he goes to Celtic

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1 minute ago, Section Q said:

I actually had forgotten this matey. He's made some impact eh......!

What sort of communication and how often do we expect? 

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1 minute ago, Locky said:

I agree with you on the Stendel point. In an ideal world, he'd have got a chance. The way we went about getting Neilson without ever really admitting we'd punted Stendel, left a really bad taste in my mouth.

 

But, ultimately, what can we do? What's done is done, and we have little control over it. I still don't think Neilson is bad for the club, quite the opposite. But I do get why people were uneasy about his appointment.

Fair enough 👍, I wasn’t convinced he was the way to go at the time and as time goes on he isn’t doing anything to  prove me wrong. He’s had all his assistants in to support him pronto, he’s now got a sporting director and has had money available to make signings but the football is imo worse to watch than last year against way weaker opposition. Time will tell, and I fear next season will be another write off of mediocrity, where he will have a decent budget and plenty time and backing from the hierarchy something which his predecessor never had. 

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Glamorgan Jambo

Don't want to rain on anyone's parade but several of the players folks want 'cleared out' have contracts for next season (and even beyond). Naismith and Damour being prime examples. These guys don't need to leave. Same goes for the distinctly underwhelming Halliday. And if Haring is struggling fitness wise I'm fairly sure he has another season on his contract.

 

I'm also not a fan of huge clear outs. I still think we're suffering from the infamous Cathro window more than 4 years ago where for example Igor Rossi was replaced by Aaron Hughes. Steady as she goes presuming we get promoted. And yes that means that Berra, Zlamal, Doyle, Frear etc will leave.

 

Aidy White is someone I'd keep presuming he's not on a huge wage (which may be incorrect). Aside from his injury issues he's one of our few players with genuine pace. Especially early this season I thought he did well coming on as a sub against tiring defences.

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davemclaren
3 minutes ago, GinRummy said:

What sort of communication and how often do we expect? 

Isn’t he basically running the non football aspects as I believe Neilson and Savage also report direct to Ann?

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13 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

Isn’t he basically running the non football aspects as I believe Neilson and Savage also report direct to Ann?

 Didn’t know that. I assume savage and Neilson reported to mckinlay. 

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Seymour M Hersh
7 hours ago, The Grim Reaper said:

 

 

(List copied from elsewhere)

 

What's the point of the list? 

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Guest ToqueJambo
5 hours ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:


Good coach though. Very good coach. That’s the difference.

 

Ian Cathro was and still is it seems a very good coach. Neilson to me has what it takes to be a Hearts manager simply because he puts out a team that gets the results we need more often than not, and "style" wise he has stated for the record how he wants us to play and it's how all of us want Hearts to play. The differences of opinion seem to be around the expectations of how long he should get to do that. Given everyone agrees we've had 5 years of regression, it will probably take more than 20 games or so to turn things around. Haven't a clue about his training ground coaching ability or his coaching team - none of us do if we're being honest. An encouraging thing this season, thinking back to previous seasons, has been his subs have more often than not been spot on. Not every time obviously, before someone jumps in.

 

On topic, I'd be OK with the team for next season shaping up like this after a clear out assuming he keeps his favoured formation:

 

Gordon

Smith/new RB Souttar New CB Kingsley

Irving/Haring/New Mid McEneff

New mid/wing/forward Walker/new AM GMS

Boyce

 

Subs: Stewart, Gnando, new forward, new wing/Ginnelly, Halkett, Youngster, Youngster

Edited by ToqueJambo
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1 hour ago, Glamorgan Jambo said:

Don't want to rain on anyone's parade but several of the players folks want 'cleared out' have contracts for next season (and even beyond). Naismith and Damour being prime examples. These guys don't need to leave. Same goes for the distinctly underwhelming Halliday. And if Haring is struggling fitness wise I'm fairly sure he has another season on his contract.

 

I'm also not a fan of huge clear outs. I still think we're suffering from the infamous Cathro window more than 4 years ago where for example Igor Rossi was replaced by Aaron Hughes. Steady as she goes presuming we get promoted. And yes that means that Berra, Zlamal, Doyle, Frear etc will leave.

 

Aidy White is someone I'd keep presuming he's not on a huge wage (which may be incorrect). Aside from his injury issues he's one of our few players with genuine pace. Especially early this season I thought he did well coming on as a sub against tiring defences.

Decent post. I don’t think Halliday will leave and I’d doubt if Neilson wants him to leave either. Guys like him who can fill in in a couple of positions will be needed with a slimmed down squad imo. We won’t have a youngster who can cover for every position.  If Halliday is second choice left back and 3rd or 4th choice midfielder I can live with that. Maybe someone can come up with an up to date list but even accounting for guys under contract I still think we have a big scope for a fairly big turnaround in players. Surely some of the contracted players who are surplus to requirements will find other clubs as well. 

Edited by GinRummy
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Psychedelicropcircle
9 hours ago, lost in space said:

Quote from Halkett -

" We had a chat after the Inverness game".

 

Yup, says it all to me. A nice cosy chat. Probably over tea and scones.

Any raised voices??? Nah, no need for that.  Probably all asked for their opinions but not allowed to name underperforming players. There is HR issues to consider.

 

Probably took a vote on how they should "move forward as a team" and take collective responsibility.

Glad we have that sorted.

Was there jam tomorrow on said scones🤔

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The Grim Reaper
34 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

What's the point of the list? 


What’s the meaning of life?

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1 hour ago, GinRummy said:

Damn! You got me. Mr McKinlay has been quiet but I don’t know if we should have expected to hear anything from him or not. When we are getting announcements from the club do you think it’ll be from Ann or Andrew? 

Football related it will be Savage or Nielson. Corporate/finance announcements should be either Chairperson or CEO. When FoH take over I believe chairperson role is planned to be non-exec so that would mean McKinlay is the main man on a day to day basis. Season ticket renewals on the horizon so it will be interesting but as Budge is still executive Chair I’d expect it to be her for now. 

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Just now, soonbe110 said:

Football related it will be Savage or Nielson. Corporate/finance announcements should be either Chairperson or CEO. When FoH take over I believe chairperson role is planned to be non-exec so that would mean McKinlay is the main man on a day to day basis. Season ticket renewals on the horizon so it will be interesting but as Budge is still executive Chair I’d expect it to be her for now. 

Thanks. 

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2 hours ago, Lfhearts said:

Liam Gordon, Doig and Paton walk into that Hearts side, so not necessary true, all doing much better than being at Hearts, who is to blame, that should be the question.

Doig left because he was second choice behind Hickey. Paton, from memory, had some attitude issues. No idea re Gordon. 

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1 hour ago, stevie1874 said:

Fair enough 👍, I wasn’t convinced he was the way to go at the time and as time goes on he isn’t doing anything to  prove me wrong. He’s had all his assistants in to support him pronto, he’s now got a sporting director and has had money available to make signings but the football is imo worse to watch than last year against way weaker opposition. Time will tell, and I fear next season will be another write off of mediocrity, where he will have a decent budget and plenty time and backing from the hierarchy something which his predecessor never had. 

Decent footballers won’t sign for a club playing a reduced season in the second tier of Scottish football. Certainly not of the quality thats required for next season. That’s the hard facts about the signings or lack of them. 

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23 minutes ago, GinRummy said:

Decent post. I don’t think Halliday will leave and I’d doubt if Neilson wants him to leave either. Guys like him who can fill in in a couple of positions will be needed with a slimmed down squad imo. We won’t have a youngster who can cover for every position.  If Halliday is second choice left back and 3rd or 4th choice midfielder I can live with that. Maybe someone can come up with an up to date list but even accounting for guys under contract I still think we have a big scope for a fairly big turnaround in players. Surely some of the contracted players who are surplus to requirements will find other clubs as well. 

Likely outs

Bobby

Doyle

Berra

White

Hamilton

Cochrane

Damour

Wighton

Moore

Haring

Irving

Frear

Roberts

Naismith


Thats 14

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David Black
2 hours ago, soonbe110 said:

Need to be convinced youngsters are ready though. Last time we had a team of largely youngsters we were relegated. 

True, but then it was about 8 youngsters and 3 seniors. Done the right way it would be the other way round. If were not going to give some of the youngsters a chance to prove themselves it's pointless even having the academy.

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8 minutes ago, soonbe110 said:

Decent footballers won’t sign for a club playing a reduced season in the second tier of Scottish football. Certainly not of the quality thats required for next season. That’s the hard facts about the signings or lack of them. 

Footballers go where the money is. 

Rule No1. 

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Auldbenches
2 hours ago, soonbe110 said:

He won’t be getting a lot from the minimal media stuff he does. Only 30 come October, needs to be playing regularly given he only has about another 2-3 years left. Could easily see him at any of the bottom clubs 

I thought he was more than adequate for this league.  So that's me and the recruitment got it wrong...

Do you needs a certain type with him if he is playing in midfield?

He might be alright back up as a left back.  

 

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2 minutes ago, NANOJAMBO said:

Footballers go where the money is. 

Rule No1. 

Agreed, we are not paying big money this season to any of the guys we have signed. Only Kingsley has been upgraded to premiership pay so far 

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Just now, Auldbenches said:

I thought he was more than adequate for this league.  So that's me and the recruitment got it wrong...

Do you needs a certain type with him if he is playing in midfield?

He might be alright back up as a left back.  

 

He is adequate for this season but would need a major improvement for top league. Was only ever a regular with Rangers as a left back. I said earlier on thread that standby left back is only role I see for him next season. Don’t think he will go for that because he knows he would probably be released at the end of next season when contract expires. He will be looking for a 2/3 year deal at a club this summer. Won’t be us I hope. That would take him through to age 32/33. 

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9 minutes ago, soonbe110 said:

Likely outs

Bobby

Doyle

Berra

White

Hamilton

Cochrane

Damour

Wighton

Moore

Haring

Irving

Frear

Roberts

Naismith


Thats 14

It’s what we need. We can all make a case for individual players on that list but a clean(ish) sweep and new policies is what’s needed. 

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Based on the number of changes Robbie made when we were last promoted I was under no illusions that we'd see the same team next season. I'd be more surprised if we don't punt half of them regardless how we did this season.

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No Idle Talk

This place is frightening at the moment. It seems everybody apart from Craig Gordon should GTF as they are letting the club down. It's mental.

 

This is where I am at:

 

Ann Budge is good for Hearts

 

Robbie Neilson deserves more time and less criticism

 

The squad isn't as bad as made out 

 

Two or three good signings in the right positions and challenging for the top four next season is not out of the question

 

The club had better not be lowballing Andy Irving. That would be a mistake.

 

I am enjoying this season even though the performances are at times difficult to watch.

 

I realise this may be way too positive for some but that's essentially how I feel about Hearts just now. I really don't understand why so many people seem to think the sky is falling.

Edited by No Idle Talk
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Dusk_Till_Dawn
1 hour ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

Ian Cathro was and still is it seems a very good coach. Neilson to me has what it takes to be a Hearts manager simply because he puts out a team that gets the results we need more often than not, and "style" wise he has stated for the record how he wants us to play and it's how all of us want Hearts to play. The differences of opinion seem to be around the expectations of how long he should get to do that. Given everyone agrees we've had 5 years of regression, it will probably take more than 20 games or so to turn things around. Haven't a clue about his training ground coaching ability or his coaching team - none of us do if we're being honest. An encouraging thing this season, thinking back to previous seasons, has been his subs have more often than not been spot on. Not every time obviously, before someone jumps in.

 

On topic, I'd be OK with the team for next season shaping up like this after a clear out assuming he keeps his favoured formation:

 

Gordon

Smith/new RB Souttar New CB Kingsley

Irving/Haring/New Mid McEneff

New mid/wing/forward Walker/new AM GMS

Boyce

 

Subs: Stewart, Gnando, new forward, new wing/Ginnelly, Halkett, Youngster, Youngster


We can’t not appoint good coaches on the basis that Cathro was pish. You need to do due diligence but the reality with Cathro is that he was like a frightened puppy who froze in the public eye. Never had the personality for management.

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Dusk_Till_Dawn
11 minutes ago, A_A wehatethehibs said:

I think a lot of players know Neilson is going to bin them. 


Doubt it.

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Guest ToqueJambo
2 hours ago, davemclaren said:

Isn’t he basically running the non football aspects as I believe Neilson and Savage also report direct to Ann?

 

You're right. This was the new set-up announced by Budge when Neilson joined.

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Guest ToqueJambo
2 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:


We can’t not appoint good coaches on the basis that Cathro was pish. You need to do due diligence but the reality with Cathro is that he was like a frightened puppy who froze in the public eye. Never had the personality for management.

 

It still annoys me that Kris Boyd was right about Cathro. Cathro is still enjoying the kind of stellar career in football coaching that Boyd could only dream of so there's that I suppose.

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jamboinglasgow
2 hours ago, davemclaren said:

Isn’t he basically running the non football aspects as I believe Neilson and Savage also report direct to Ann?

 

Neilson and Savage report to the board rather than just Ann. It was why they considering it a mistake having Levein on the board.

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10 hours ago, everton_jambo said:

Halkett looked good before his injury last season. He just looks so shaky now. Still think he and Souttar could be a good long term partnership under a different manager but think we need a more dominating CB for next season. At the moment teams (including part timers)  look dangerous whenever they enter our half.

Honestly didn't think he was good at all before his injury.He scored goals but defensively he has been garbage since day one.Constantly out of position with no pace to get back always leaving his partner exposed.

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27 minutes ago, No Idle Talk said:

This place is frightening at the moment. It seems everybody apart from Craig Gordon should GTF as they are letting the club down. It's mental.

 

This is where I am at:

 

Ann Budge is good for Hearts

 

Robbie Neilson deserves more time and less criticism

 

The squad isn't as bad as made out 

 

Two or three good signings in the right positions and challenging for the top four next season is not out of the question

 

The club had better not be lowballing Andy Irving. That would be a mistake.

 

I am enjoying this season even though the performances are at times difficult to watch.

 

I realise this may be way too positive for some but that's essentially how I feel about Hearts just now. I really don't understand why so many people seem to think the sky is falling.

I think everyone is a bit uptight at the moment. It is a bit nutty at times but it’s a tough season for us fans and folk just have opinions that they feel strongly about. 
 

Ann Budge is good for us but that doesn’t gloss over the terrible decisions she’s made. We are where we are, at least partly  due to her awful choices. Robbie definitely deserves more time but again questions are rightly being asked about him sticking to a system that, most of us can see, needed changed a month ago. It leads to bigger, perhaps unfair, questions about his tactics in general. 
 

For whatever reasons, be it the high basic low bonus structure, general poor signings, lack of pace, lack of motivation for whatever reason, this squad and the remnants of last seasons squad have consistently underperformed for 3 different managers (4 if you include AM). For that reason I favour a huge clear out and rebuild. A change in tact in recruitment, no more one last decent payday for players nearing retirement, 4 year deals for journeymen or project players who are injury prone or failed at levels lower than ours. I want players with pace, drive, vim and ambition. Like the players at some of the pishy clubs who shamed us last season only a step up from that. 

Edited by GinRummy
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Guest ToqueJambo
14 minutes ago, A_A wehatethehibs said:

I think a lot of players know Neilson is going to bin them. 

 

Agree with this. I think that was an issue under Stendel as well. It's probably the biggest difference between 14/15 and this season. We binned the senior pros before 14/15 despite them not really doing much wrong in order to bring in a fresh energy about the place. Robbie no doubt would have liked to have cleared more out than he could. Stendel also would have if COVID hadn't happened as well.

 

Hibs kept a lot of the players who got them relegated (and who had underperformed for years in some cases) and it showed in terms of how long it took them to get promoted.

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55 minutes ago, soonbe110 said:

Decent footballers won’t sign for a club playing a reduced season in the second tier of Scottish football. Certainly not of the quality thats required for next season. That’s the hard facts about the signings or lack of them. 

So why make some of the signings he’s made, apart from Kingsley & Gordon we should have went with the same squad and supplemented it with the youth players.

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Guest ToqueJambo
2 minutes ago, vegas-voss said:

Honestly didn't think he was good at all before his injury.He scored goals but defensively he has been garbage since day one.Constantly out of position with no pace to get back always leaving his partner exposed.

 

Hard to remember now, but he was considered a shoo-in for the next Scotland squad when he got injured. Doesn't say much mind you considering the players we have at CB for Scotland.

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davemclaren
4 minutes ago, jamboinglasgow said:

 

Neilson and Savage report to the board rather than just Ann. It was why they considering it a mistake having Levein on the board.

Thanks for the clarification. 

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Guest ToqueJambo
1 minute ago, stevie1874 said:

So why make some of the signings he’s made, apart from Kingsley & Gordon we should have went with the same squad and supplemented it with the youth players.

 

Some of the players no doubt triggered relegation clauses and/or we needed to bring in fees and reduce the wage bill because of covid.

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4 minutes ago, stevie1874 said:

So why make some of the signings he’s made, apart from Kingsley & Gordon we should have went with the same squad and supplemented it with the youth players.

Which youth players? I’m not disagreeing with you and I’d like to see the young guys coming through but I’ve not seen many of them play? 

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2 minutes ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

Some of the players no doubt triggered relegation clauses and/or we needed to bring in fees and reduce the wage bill because of covid.

Sorry I’m not talking about the players that left. We should be good enough to win the league without signing Halliday, GMS, Kasteneer, Frear, Roberts etc. We also have Haring sitting on the bench every week?

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2 minutes ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

Hard to remember now, but he was considered a shoo-in for the next Scotland squad when he got injured. Doesn't say much mind you considering the players we have at CB for Scotland.

No I can remember that and I can remember thinking ****ing hell.He arrived thinking he was Pique bombing forward and a threat in the other box unlike Pique though he could never get back and just left the defence exposed.Was always the defensive partner that took the flack.He was fully committed player though and had a bit of passion about him when he first came but that also seems to have gone.We were blessed with so many great centrebacks at Hearts over the years I just thought it would always be that way.I wouldn't mind just a couple of competent ones now.

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1 minute ago, GinRummy said:

Which youth players? I’m not disagreeing with you and I’d like to see the young guys coming through but I’ve not seen many of them play? 

Henderson, Moore, Smith, McGill to name a few would have benefitted with more game time with experienced players which we have roundabout them in this league.  It’s a poor league we’re in. 

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The Mighty Thor

I wouldn't give the football dept at Hearts any significant money for transfers. 

The utter shite signed over the last few years has been incredible. 

Neilson has continued this rich vein by adding the likes of Halliday, Popescu and of course running his expert eye over Roberts and Frear, not to mention everyone else's dross on loan. 

We need a clear out alright. Board. Football management. Players.

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3 minutes ago, GinRummy said:

Which youth players? I’m not disagreeing with you and I’d like to see the young guys coming through but I’ve not seen many of them play? 

Agreed we don't seem to have anyone of note ready to come through.

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1 minute ago, The Mighty Thor said:

I wouldn't give the football dept at Hearts any significant money for transfers. 

The utter shite signed over the last few years has been incredible. 

Neilson has continued this rich vein by adding the likes of Halliday, Popescu and of course running his expert eye over Roberts and Frear, not to mention everyone else's dross on loan. 

We need a clear out alright. Board. Football management. Players.

My hope is that things will get better under the new Sporting director.McEneff is hopefully just the beginning.

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Guest ToqueJambo
3 minutes ago, vegas-voss said:

No I can remember that and I can remember thinking ****ing hell.He arrived thinking he was Pique bombing forward and a threat in the other box unlike Pique though he could never get back and just left the defence exposed.Was always the defensive partner that took the flack.He was fully committed player though and had a bit of passion about him when he first came but that also seems to have gone.We were blessed with so many great centrebacks at Hearts over the years I just thought it would always be that way.I wouldn't mind just a couple of competent ones now.

 

 

Definitely. Like you I want a return to the CBs we used to sign and bring through the ranks. There are too many to list. Souttar is more like it and they did have potential as a partnership early on.

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Guest ToqueJambo
10 minutes ago, stevie1874 said:

Sorry I’m not talking about the players that left. We should be good enough to win the league without signing Halliday, GMS, Kasteneer, Frear, Roberts etc. We also have Haring sitting on the bench every week?

 

Gotcha. Some of Neilson's selections have been weird - Walker and Naismith mainly. I've put it down to not exactly having a typical pre season with very few pre-season games so he's been trying different things, but then I am a Neilson fanboy/apologist.

 

Aside from long-term injured, every single player in the first team squad seems to have had a game in the first 20 or so games of the season - must be a record? Disappointed not to see at least 1 or 2 of McGill, Cochrane, Chris Hamilton or Connor Smith involved and that Tony MacDonald was allowed to leave unless he really wasn't keen on staying. I'd also rather have stuck with Moore and Henderson than a couple of the wide players we've signed.

Edited by ToqueJambo
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1 minute ago, stevie1874 said:

Henderson, Moore, Smith, McGill to name a few would have benefitted with more game time with experienced players which we have roundabout them in this league.  It’s a poor league we’re in. 

Henderson and Moore had that last season. A season we were demoted. Not blaming them but they failed along with the rest of the squad against bottom six teams probably fairly similar to the teams we face this season. For me, they only looked good when they were tasked with pinning back an opposition full back or wing back.  Is that something we really needed this season? There replacements were mostly poor but that doesn’t make them better or point to a future at the club for either of them.

 

McGill, I think played two league cup games, looked good in one and terrible in the other. Could be argued he should have had more of a chance. Could we handle our midfield being even worse if he didn’t work out?

 

Smith I don’t know much about tbh. I’m sure I’ve seen him play but can’t remember anything much about him.  

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