SPFL and Covid ( Leagues 1 and 2 to restart )

[redalir]

2 hours ago, firsttimecaller said:

I'm aware this is an essay, but nevermind!

 

It’s come to the point where I feel I can’t stand by any more. A reality check needs to kick-in at some point here.

 

At the time when the league was suspended, Hearts were bottom. They were beaten 1-0 by St Mirren in a game which the vast majority of Hearts supporters, and everyone else, had labelled as “must win”. Hearts didn’t win this game, and were therefore four points adrift at the bottom of the table with eight games to play. Hearts had won four games all season. The performance at St Mirren was described variously as “meek”, “insipid” and “lacking threat”. Hearts nearest rivals for relegation were unbeaten in their last five home matches and had kept clean sheets in four of those.

 

Hearts supporters shared the view that, from a sporting point of view, they were the worst team in the league. On 14^th March, under the title of “At What point Did You Think Our Season Was Doomed?”, various posters on JKB acknowledged how poor Hearts were. Saughton Jambo, who has recently been noticeably vocal around fairness with regards to the Court of Session case, pointed out “This is worse than the 80-81 season [when Hearts were relegated]. We had an excuse back then... we don’t now”. Stan pointed out that “Going 3 down to Killie after the break … was the last chance to turn the corner and finish the season well”. Famous 1874 said that “It’s hard to say when we were doomed as we’ve been s***e all season bar a handful of results”. In a poll on the 14^th March on JKB, 12.8% of Hearts own fans acknowledged that they deserved to be relegated.

 

From a sporting perspective, Hearts were the worst football team in the league. In the match thread following the St Mirren defeat, the overall mood was disappointment and acknowledgment of how poor a team they were. In that match thread, Fozzyonthefence noted prior to the defeat “Lose on Wednesday and we’re down.  I think you’re the only person on here that doesn’t think that” in response to a poster suggesting they could stay up. JimmyCant pointed out that “We’ve got 5 key games left … We’ll need to win 4 out of those 5. That’s becoming a big ask the more you look at it.” Bear in mind, this is a Hearts team that had won four times all season.

 

On sporting merit, Hearts deserved to be relegated.

 

There is also the worrying trend emerging around Hearts supporters expressly hoping for negative outcomes for other clubs whilst at the same time becoming noticeably vocal around the concept of fairness. There is the startling example of the post on the aforementioned St Mirren matchday thread of a poster highlighting how funny it would be to beat St Mirren, sending them bottom, and then for the season to be called due to COVID19. I’m fairly certain the poster in question has had this particular post copy/pasted several times, and so I’ll spare them the reminder of it. This schadenfreude has now been replaced by hoping that other clubs go into administration, seemingly based on the assumption that they “voted against Hearts” in order to relegate them.

 

Throughout various threads, numerous assertions have been made as to which clubs people would like to go into administration. The thread titled “Administration” from 26^th June notes that some fans believe that “quite a few” will suffer this fate and that Hearts should “Get that interdict served ASAP”. Amongst others, Dundee, Hibs, St Mirren, Ross County, Hamilton and Albion Rovers are all named as clubs that posters hope enter administration, a process which results in numerous job losses and can end in financial hardship for ordinary employees. It’s noteworthy that several of these clubs were Hearts rivals within the bottom six of the league.Thank goodness for the few comments of common sense on such matters, notably Sassenach, who said “I've suffered admin events … It's horrible, and I wouldn't wish it on any fellow football fans”. Some things surely transcend sport.

 

The matter of finance also comes into play in issue. Hearts suffered a previous administration event, ultimately leading to their relegation in the 2010s. This was caused largely by financial mismanagement. Within their list of creditors, Hearts included fellow football clubs Ayr United, Livingston, Musselburgh Athletic, Stenhousemuir and Rangers. They also owed monies to a variety of public bodies, including the City of Edinburgh Council, Scottish Water and Scottish Police Authority. There are no winners in administration events. Supporter boycotts of all clubs who voted against Hearts league reconstruction proposals have been widely mentioned online.

 

To a significant extent, supporters of other clubs (the Pie & Bovril forum is a marker of this) do sympathise with the situation in which Hearts currently find themselves, but many have expressed a significant distaste for the sense of entitlement being displayed. Under the JKB thread of “Wigan Go Into Administration”, posters note that there may be “decent freebies to be had” and that this is “karma for Webstergate”. The irony and understanding of the concept of karma and justice for perceived previous wrongdoings is an interesting one.

 

Similarly, the suggestion that Dundee United are a target of Hearts fans’ dislike appears to be an interesting perspective. Taken from the thread last week on JKB  “I Used To Post On Here About Liking Dundee Utd”, Salad Fingers notes that he/she “recently developed a strong hatred of them and their fans”. The supposed crime committed by Dundee United is defending themselves and their promotion in the Court of Session and being asked to pay £50,000 for the privilege.

 

The thread posted this morning on JKB titled “Merging Clubs” highlights and reinforces the prevailing sense of entitlement amongst posters on the site, perhaps representative of the wider Hearts support. The assertion from Space Pirate that there are “far too many wee diddy clubs” and that clubs should merge underlines the contempt in which other clubs in Scotland are held.

 

As it stands, the hugely successful Foundation of Hearts brings circa £2M into the club each year from fans and it has been revealed that James Anderson has acted as a benefactor over recent times. During this time, Hearts have spent £17M on a main stand within Tynecastle and this is yet to be fully completed. During the recent Court of Session case, various figures of compensation have been raised and noted, both on JKB and within the Scottish media. It has been suggested that Hearts are seeking compensation and damages in the region of £8M.

 

Following on from the Court of Session hearing, Hearts supporters are seemingly painting the club, and Ann Budge in particular, as champions of justice, noting that there is a crucial role to be played in fighting corruption. Indeed, it has been suggested that Ann Budge previously stepped down from her role on the SPFL Board as she wanted to challenge the corruption that she saw. Reporting of the matter would seem to indicate otherwise - https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/sport/football/hearts-chairwoman-ann-budge-voted-spfl-board-583624

 

Throughout this process since March, there has been much play with regards to revisionism. The term relegated has been replaced with expelled, for instance. Interestingly, manager Daniel Stendal’s contract reputably had a clause allowing it’s termination in the event of relegation, as confirmed by both Ann Budge and Daniel Stendal. This clause was enacted. The tone and portrayal of Ann Budge has shifted too. Compare the descriptions with regards to her perceived leadership skills that were expressed on JKB during January and February to now.

 

Before Hearts continue to fall further down the rabbit hole of blaming other people, clubs and institutions, perhaps the blame needs to lie closer to home.

I have heard/read a number of people saying we wouldn't make up 4 points.

 

Just as a reminder in season 2013/2014.  After 30 games Hearts had scored less points  than they had this year 21 (-15). 

 

The league over the last 8 games would be

Pos.		P	Pts
1	Celtic	8	18
2	Heart of Midlothian	8	17
3	Motherwell	8	13
4	St. Johnstone	8	12
5	St. Mirren	8	12
6	Ross County	8	11
7	Aberdeen	8	10
8	Inverness CT	8	9
9	Kilmarnock	8	9
10	Dundee United	8	8
11	Partick Thistle	8	6
12	Hibernian	8	1

 

Without the points deduction we would not have been automatically relegated. We all know what did happen. Hibs were 13 points (excluding the -15) ahead of us at the 30 game mark.

 

So while we were the worst team in the league up to the 30 games, we were not the worst team over the last 8 games. 

 

Who can say something similar would not have happened this year,

[doctor jambo]

1 minute ago, cosanostra said:

 

What's wrong with doing what the English PL have done?

It would have meant Celtic NOT being voted a title, may have saved Hearts, and relegated brechin/ross county.

It would have cost a couple of million to the clubs in the top flight, as opposed to the £2.5 million cost of not playing the games via clawback from BT.

There should have been a cost/benefit analysis done re the costs of playing the games vs the cost of not doing so- legal costs+ claw back etc and those figures presented to the clubs PRIOR to the vote- or that is what I would have done.

you know- INFORMED CHOICE

[Glamorgan Jambo]

Basically Dundee Utd, Raith and Cove were duped into signing up as respondents to last week's court action by Doncaster, McKenzie et al. There was no need for them to stand up for their interests as the SPFL were preparing a case. All they succeeded in doing was giving the SPFL a risk free (for them but not for the 3 clubs) but low chance at getting the case dismissed. So excuse me not wasting one second worrying about the costs they have incurred on a useless QC.

 

Remember all the tweets coming out from Brian Mclauchlin about HMFC vs SPFL and others. Fed straight into his pudgy paws by Doncaster etc. We can expect the attempts to generate a pile on to continue.

 

Meanwhile I assume Doncaster has delegated the task of pulling together the documents and recommending their person for the panel to the SFA.

[Horatio Caine]

firsttimecaller instead of trawling JKB looking for evidence of bitterness, why not turn your investigative gifts to the SPFL whose bungling incompetence has led to this ridiculous situation?  No idea who you support - maybe no-one except yourself (and your estranged kids possibly), - like others on here I suspect you are a journo.  At least have the decency and integrity to lay your cards on the table.

Edited July 6, 2020 by Horatio Caine

[colinmaroon]

3 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

It would have meant Celtic NOT being voted a title, may have saved Hearts, and relegated brechin/ross county.

It would have cost a couple of million to the clubs in the top flight, as opposed to the £2.5 million cost of not playing the games via clawback from BT.

There should have been a cost/benefit analysis done re the costs of playing the games vs the cost of not doing so- legal costs+ claw back etc and those figures presented to the clubs PRIOR to the vote- or that is what I would have done.

you know- INFORMED CHOICE

 

Exactly!

[Hagar the Horrible]

4 minutes ago, Diadora Van Basten said:

I do we win the arguments at arbitration then they have choice:

 

Amend the league or pay £10 million 

 

I think they will amend the league 

I think the reconstruction boat has not only sailed, its hit an iceberg.

 

There is a bout a 20% we will be re-instated and 80% chance of compensation, its the amount that is the worry, too much and we kill too many clubs, not enough and we suffer. If we get re-instated, only the Calpol 3 will suffer, compensation everybody suffers. 

 

If we win because we proved they are what we all know for a fact, they are corrupt!,

 

If we win we would be re-instated but there will be no reconstruction, just DU will have to suck it up or fight for their own compensation claim against the SPFL.

[Anything2]

8 minutes ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

No, she’s on record as saying there are too many senior clubs in Scotland’s professional set up. She doesn’t want to get rid of clubs, she just commented that the senior set up has too many clubs in it. This is true, it does. The needs of the majority of clubs in the senior set up are very different to the truly full time professional clubs. Most are part time. Nobody wants to get rid of these clubs, they just want all clubs to play and compete at a level that best suits their resources and needs.

And intelligent people can hold an opinion about one thing whilst also make pragmatic decisions about the specific situation at hand. So it's more than feasible to believe that there are too many teams in the professional set up and also think that relegation via vote is unfair. 

[tokyowalnut]

I thought Neil Doncaster spoke very eloquently and passionately about the new sponsorship deal he has negotiated for the SPFL. He gets a hard time, but hands up, he has brought in a multi million pound sponsorship for the new season 👍

 

Edit:

 

Just rewatched the Sky Sports interview, I obviously misunderstood. How silly, imagine thinking he had actually done his job in bringing money to the game and not sitting like a smug twat telling lies on TV. 

 

 

 

 

[Stuart G]

1 hour ago, Hendolad said:

I had the misfortune of being in the company of Mr Leckie a few years ago at Hamilton racing.He was giving it the big licks about how he was going to get tips throughout the day from his "source" from a yard.Not one winner.He was an arrogant man and wanted the conversation centered around him.

In 2012 our supporters club hired him as 1 of 3 guest speakers on a Sunday afternoon, he breezed in, announced that he would need to speak first and then leave as had a deadline to.meet, he started off with a joke Kevin Bridges was using about the face painter at Ibrox, obviously everyone had heard it, one of the worst guest speakers we have had, took his money and ran, even our other 2 speakers were disgusted with him.

He is an arrogant twat of a man and hopefully his paper go down the tubes sooner rather than later taking him with it.

[Beast Boy]

2 minutes ago, Anything2 said:

And intelligent people can hold an opinion about one thing whilst also make pragmatic decisions about the specific situation at hand. So it's more than feasible to believe that there are too many teams in the professional set up and also think that relegation via vote is unfair. 

Indeed. Pretty sure William & William know this too. Wouldn’t surprise me to find out BBJ and Leckie were the same Willie in fact. Both type out oodles of obtuse misdirection and try and pass it off as damning evidence.

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

There is a long term argument that compensation may be better. 

 

It will be a double whammy of us receiving money taking from our rivals. 

 

One year of pain could work out significantly in our favour over 5

[Cisco1914]

16 minutes ago, PTBCAL said:

Does anyone still believe we will

be reinstated. We are in the championship and hopefully with a few quid compensation in our pocket. 
 

As a club this needs to be resolved soon as ultimately there will be some big decisions to make on and off the pitch 

I'll take our medicine whatever the outcome will be from the arbitration, they make big decisions and won't give a **** who is on the receiving end.It will only come down the law.

[graygo]

3 hours ago, Spellczech said:

Not sure if I quite get all the anger at DUFC, Cove and Raith. They are just fighting their corner. My irritation with them is that they may have voted against reconstruction, not that they are trying to hold onto promotion... That is not to say I am not angry. I am angry at the SPFL and Dundee over the curtailment of the season, and I am angry about every club which voted against reconstruction. I am also angry as to why the Record article talks of other clubs giving moral support to Cove, Raith & United in their fight against us and Partick, but this could be Redtop BS. I do hate the Daily Record.

 

All over the place.

[Dirty Deeds]

Just because we were having a bad season does not mean that we haven't been shafted. 

 

The SPFL made a mess of ending the season and temporary reconstruction would have been fair.

 

What's happened is unfair.  If it was also against Conpany Law then hell mend the lot of them.

[grumpyespana]

11 hours ago, gashauskis9 said:

Just think.  With reconstruction, these three teams would have kept their titles, their promotions and saved themselves a fortune in legal costs.  Utter helmets the lot of them. 

Just thinking were they being guided by Donkey who knows.

[Nookie Bear]

6 minutes ago, Hagar the Horrible said:

I think the reconstruction boat has not only sailed, its hit an iceberg.

 

There is a bout a 20% we will be re-instated and 80% chance of compensation, its the amount that is the worry, too much and we kill too many clubs, not enough and we suffer. If we get re-instated, only the Calpol 3 will suffer, compensation everybody suffers. 

 

If we win because we proved they are what we all know for a fact, they are corrupt!,

 

If we win we would be re-instated but there will be no reconstruction, just DU will have to suck it up or fight for their own compensation claim against the SPFL.

 

For me, the recon ship has sailed because the SPFL dithered so long in resolving this that, by amending the league now would be so disruptive (especially as the fixtures are out and the mindset is very much looking towards next season).

 

The 2 options in april should have been reconstruction or null&void.

[Jambo314]

32 minutes ago, Billybuffjaw said:

She's also on record as saying there are far too many clubs in Scotland. I'm playing Devils advocate btw and I don't think there's a Hearts fan out there who genuinely believes Budge would have voted for recon if we weren't bottom.

Hobo alert!!

[colinmaroon]

2 minutes ago, Jambo314 said:

Hobo alert!!

 

 

Obviously!

[Hectormasson]

23 minutes ago, Boof said:

 

Neatly summarised for you.

 

It's in red and bold, in case you have difficulty finding it.

We were completely f......d sidaways by the scumbags splfa,   all rules bard when it comes to taking that shower of c....s on !!!!!!c.mon the hmfc  🇶🇦🇶🇦🇶🇦🇶🇦

[Diadora Van Basten]

I think Albion Rovers showed there are too many clubs in the SPFL.

 

Unless clubs are paying players £200 a week then they are basically playing as a hobby and should be playing in regional rather than national leagues. 

[kila]

37 minutes ago, Billybuffjaw said:

She's also on record as saying there are far too many clubs in Scotland. I'm playing Devils advocate btw and I don't think there's a Hearts fan out there who genuinely believes Budge would have voted for recon if we weren't bottom.

 

She definitely would.

 

Hell I reckon she'd still have come up with the 14-14-14/16 proposal. Because that is still the most sensible league structure. But no, we need a couple more lower leagues for clubs with no ambition to clog up while limiting the progression of Highland/Lowland teams with ambition.

 

Let's not forget Budge was on the SPFL board once so knows how this shite works and she had ideas on making the game better that couldn't get any support.

 

[Weebroon98]

Just now, Diadora Van Basten said:

I think Albion Rovers showed there are too many clubs in the SPFL.

 

Unless clubs are paying players £200 a week then they are basically playing as a hobby and should be playing in regional rather than national leagues. 

That's exactly what Gordon Strachan was saying a couple of months ago

[Nelly Terraces]

**** all this did/didn't deserve to go down shite - back to the legal chat...

 

When can we expect to hear on who's been chosen for the arbitration? And when do we think it will actually start??

[Seymour M Hersh]

2 hours ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

Bill Leckie!

 

Looking forward to see if we can destroy that fixture list too.

 

I'm now of the opinion I want the whole corrupt building destroyed so that there is no football in Scotland this year while we rebuild a league system on fairness and transparency run y professionals for the clubs and not by the clubs. **** the SPFL & SFA. 

[manaliveits105]

SFA have appointed Stevie Wonder to scrutinise the required documents on behalf of the panel

[Col]

Hi, I am a Tranmere Rovers fan. We are in a similar predicament, and I suspect the excellent leadership of our club is watching the Scottish situation with great interest. It is wholly unacceptable that a season comes to an unexpected early finish and clubs are punished, both in status and financially, for the position they happened to be in at the time of early termination.

 

In our case we were 3 points off safety with a game in hand. The season was stopped, and then restarted again just for teams that happened to lie 4th to 7th in the division below to have an undeserved competition to take our place. The EFL actually paid for the COVID tests on the players involved in playoffs, virtually proving that this was a solution brought about by non-footballing TV execs (Sky).

 

You have our total support in what you are seeking to achieve. Our common ground is that we have been punished as harshly as any team can ever be punished when we both have breached no football rules.

 

Stenhousemuir and Cowdenbeath used to be my favourite Scottish teams due to their cute names. Change that now to Hearts and Partick Thistle, Whether you prevail or not you have our respect for taking on the corporate bullies.

 

 

[Ethan Hunt]

51 minutes ago, SectionDJambo said:

If we remember the SPFL letter encouraging others to join in, at their own expense, maybe the SPFL wanted as many different clubs in court to attempt to dominate the time at the proceedings, to try to dilute our opinion. The Dundee United guy went on for far longer than anyone. Imagine if they had had another couple like him in there,  boring everyone to sleep. Thankfully,  the judge will have seen and heard it all before.

The point the 3 clubs seem to have conveniently missed, though, was that we never sought to stop them being promoted. We are only trying to stop us, Thistle and Stranraer from being demoted by a corrupt looking vote. They prevented an avenue for both promotion and no demotions, by voting against reconstruction.

There are so many inconsistencies of thought and action, that it's hard not to smell the stench of corruption, and subsequent fear of being found out.

The DU QC was given so much airtime as the number one aim of DU/RR/CR and the SPFL was to get the case dismissed.  That was why Boreland was allowed all the time, so much so that the SPFL QC was prepared to allow his replies to be “guillotined” as his argument was secondary.

[AllyjamboDerbyshire]

6 minutes ago, redalir said:

I have heard/read a number of people saying we wouldn't make up 4 points.

 

Just as a reminder in season 2013/2014.  After 30 games Hearts had scored less points  than they had this year 21 (-15). 

 

The league over the last 8 games would be

Pos.		P	Pts
1	Celtic	8	18
2	Heart of Midlothian	8	17
3	Motherwell	8	13
4	St. Johnstone	8	12
5	St. Mirren	8	12
6	Ross County	8	11
7	Aberdeen	8	10
8	Inverness CT	8	9
9	Kilmarnock	8	9
10	Dundee United	8	8
11	Partick Thistle	8	6
12	Hibernian	8	1

 

Without the points deduction we would not have been automatically relegated. We all know what did happen. Hibs were 13 points (excluding the -15) ahead of us at the 30 game mark.

 

So while we were the worst team in the league up to the 30 games, we were not the worst team over the last 8 games. 

 

Who can say something similar would not have happened this year,

Something to note about that end to the 2013 - 2014 season. With Eight games remaining Hibs were six points clear of not just one club, but two, in the play-off spot, and were so certain of their own safety that they kindly arranged for a relegation party in our honour. We know how that worked out for them, but it also meant that two clubs managed to claw back that six point deficit (plus 2 and 3 points - an 8 and 9 point turnaround) which puts our four point deficit into the 'quite easily done' category, especially if viewed from the two clubs starting that last eight game period, something far more unlikely than one club, Hearts, pulling back four or five points against the clubs above them.

[Anything2]

6 minutes ago, Diadora Van Basten said:

I think Albion Rovers showed there are too many clubs in the SPFL.

 

Unless clubs are paying players £200 a week then they are basically playing as a hobby and should be playing in regional rather than national leagues. 

There’s nothing wrong with players having other jobs and playing football as their side hustle as it were but you're correct it belongs somewhere further down the pyramid. Clubs that operate in that way are taking sponsorship money and prize money out of the same pot as clubs who are trying to sustain full time squads which is far more useful to the development of the national game etc. and there should be an obvious distinction between the two. 

[XB52]

59 minutes ago, Billybuffjaw said:

Don't let the fact he's right get in the way of a good argument. We would have done the same GUARANTEED.

No we would not, GUARANTEED FACT

[Gizmo]

7 minutes ago, Col said:

Hi, I am a Tranmere Rovers fan. We are in a similar predicament, and I suspect the excellent leadership of our club is watching the Scottish situation with great interest. It is wholly unacceptable that a season comes to an unexpected early finish and clubs are punished, both in status and financially, for the position they happened to be in at the time of early termination.

 

In our case we were 3 points off safety with a game in hand. The season was stopped, and then restarted again just for teams that happened to lie 4th to 7th in the division below to have an undeserved competition to take our place. The EFL actually paid for the COVID tests on the players involved in playoffs, virtually proving that this was a solution brought about by non-footballing TV execs (Sky).

 

You have our total support in what you are seeking to achieve. Our common ground is that we have been punished as harshly as any team can ever be punished when we both have breached no football rules.

 

Stenhousemuir and Cowdenbeath used to be my favourite Scottish teams due to their cute names. Change that now to Hearts and Partick Thistle, Whether you prevail or not you have our respect for taking on the corporate bullies.

 

 

Best of luck, you've been utterly shafted considering you were in a stronger position than us with that game in hand. It's hard to shrug off the feeling that football is no longer "our" game but a corporate farce. 

Edited July 6, 2020 by Gizmo

[kila]

7 minutes ago, Col said:

Hi, I am a Tranmere Rovers fan. We are in a similar predicament, and I suspect the excellent leadership of our club is watching the Scottish situation with great interest. It is wholly unacceptable that a season comes to an unexpected early finish and clubs are punished, both in status and financially, for the position they happened to be in at the time of early termination.

 

In our case we were 3 points off safety with a game in hand. The season was stopped, and then restarted again just for teams that happened to lie 4th to 7th in the division below to have an undeserved competition to take our place. The EFL actually paid for the COVID tests on the players involved in playoffs, virtually proving that this was a solution brought about by non-footballing TV execs (Sky).

 

You have our total support in what you are seeking to achieve. Our common ground is that we have been punished as harshly as any team can ever be punished when we both have breached no football rules.

 

Stenhousemuir and Cowdenbeath used to be my favourite Scottish teams due to their cute names. Change that now to Hearts and Partick Thistle, Whether you prevail or not you have our respect for taking on the corporate bullies.

 

 

 

Welcome to the forum.

 

Hopefully Hearts can play friendlies with all the wronged clubs in Europe.

 

[Anything2]

6 minutes ago, Col said:

Hi, I am a Tranmere Rovers fan. We are in a similar predicament, and I suspect the excellent leadership of our club is watching the Scottish situation with great interest. It is wholly unacceptable that a season comes to an unexpected early finish and clubs are punished, both in status and financially, for the position they happened to be in at the time of early termination.

 

In our case we were 3 points off safety with a game in hand. The season was stopped, and then restarted again just for teams that happened to lie 4th to 7th in the division below to have an undeserved competition to take our place. The EFL actually paid for the COVID tests on the players involved in playoffs, virtually proving that this was a solution brought about by non-footballing TV execs (Sky).

 

You have our total support in what you are seeking to achieve. Our common ground is that we have been punished as harshly as any team can ever be punished when we both have breached no football rules.

 

Stenhousemuir and Cowdenbeath used to be my favourite Scottish teams due to their cute names. Change that now to Hearts and Partick Thistle, Whether you prevail or not you have our respect for taking on the corporate bullies.

 

 

If you chose your teams based on their name, how did you overlook the Heart of Midlothian! 

[redalir]

5 minutes ago, AllyjamboDerbyshire said:

Something to note about that end to the 2013 - 2014 season. With Eight games remaining Hibs were six points clear of not just one club, but two, in the play-off spot, and were so certain of their own safety that they kindly arranged for a relegation party in our honour. We know how that worked out for them, but it also meant that two clubs managed to claw back that six point deficit (plus 2 and 3 points - an 8 and 9 point turnaround) which puts our four point deficit into the 'quite easily done' category, especially if viewed from the two clubs starting that last eight game period, something far more unlikely than one club, Hearts, pulling back four or five points against the clubs above them.

Absolutely.

 

After 30 games

Pos.		P	Pts
1	Celtic	30	81
2	Aberdeen	30	58
3	Motherwell	30	57
4	Dundee United	30	50
5	Inverness CT	30	48
6	St. Johnstone	30	41
7	Hibernian	30	34
8	Partick Thistle	30	32
9	Kilmarnock	30	30
10	Ross County	30	29
11	St. Mirren	30	27
12	Heart of Midlothian	30	6

 

This is with the -15 . Otherwise we would be on 21.

Edited July 6, 2020 by redalir
added last line of text

[martoon]

10 minutes ago, Col said:

Hi, I am a Tranmere Rovers fan. We are in a similar predicament, and I suspect the excellent leadership of our club is watching the Scottish situation with great interest. It is wholly unacceptable that a season comes to an unexpected early finish and clubs are punished, both in status and financially, for the position they happened to be in at the time of early termination.

 

In our case we were 3 points off safety with a game in hand. The season was stopped, and then restarted again just for teams that happened to lie 4th to 7th in the division below to have an undeserved competition to take our place. The EFL actually paid for the COVID tests on the players involved in playoffs, virtually proving that this was a solution brought about by non-footballing TV execs (Sky).

 

You have our total support in what you are seeking to achieve. Our common ground is that we have been punished as harshly as any team can ever be punished when we both have breached no football rules.

 

Stenhousemuir and Cowdenbeath used to be my favourite Scottish teams due to their cute names. Change that now to Hearts and Partick Thistle, Whether you prevail or not you have our respect for taking on the corporate bullies.

 

 

 

Good post, Col, and welcome to Kickback. 

 

Where are Tranmere at the moment regarding court, appeals etc?

Edited July 6, 2020 by martoon

[Col]

1 minute ago, Anything2 said:

If you chose your teams based on their name, how did you overlook the Heart of Midlothian! 

Never knew they were called that when I made my original irrational decision!

[jambo-in-furness]

 

Lets get one thing straight,  compensation, whatever the amount is what it says, it’s to make up for our prospective loss in income.  OK it will be paid by the other clubs and that’s a plus but,  no way will it make up for being expelled.

 

Compensation is not profit.

[Mundaydog]

Afternoon folks,

 

apologies for a bit of confusion in regards to Arbitration outcome, but does the SPFL really have to agree with the outcome or can they worm out of it? Can they go to court if they don't like the outcome?

 

Hearts / PT win = demotion deemed illegal, therefore no relegation, does that automatically mean no promotions (DU, RR & Cove) or does the SPFL have to force through reconstruction or can they hide behind asking the clubs to vote again?

 

Hearts / PT win = demotion deemed illegal, therefore no relegation, however SPFL say too late to change leagues therefore they offer Hearts & PT some compensation. (nowhere near the £8 & £2 million)

 

Hearts / PT lose = demotion stands & all we get is the usual 'relegation' parachute payment.

 

Hearts / PT lose = demotion stands but we can still claim for the £8 + £2 million?

 

I read comments on here about wanting to stay in the Premiership and one moment I agree and then I read comments about screwing the SPFL for every penny and accepting demotion and I agree with that..... At the moment I think I would like mega compensation but Hearts & Partick to refuse on moral grounds - 'no club to suffer' and all that but in response for not accepting the payout  Doncaster & the rest of the SPFL committee have to stand down.

 

The topic refreshes that quick at moment by the time I've written this more than 20 folk have replied, lol

 

[Col]

Just now, martoon said:

 

Good post, Cal, and welcome to Kickback. 

 

Where are Tranmere at the moment regarding court, appeals etc?

They only had the decision a couple of weeks ago, and we are told they are considering their options which may include a legal challenge. Problem is it looks like TR will be the only English club adversely affected as the top two divisions played on, and there is talk of no relegation in the division below. I suspect they will await the outcome of Hearts case before deciding whether to throw money at it

[luckydug]

1 hour ago, Billybuffjaw said:

Don't let the fact he's right get in the way of a good argument. We would have done the same GUARANTEED.

How the **** are you still here ? 

 

[Col]

8 minutes ago, Gizmo said:

Best of luck, you've been utterly shafted considering you were in a stronger position than us with that game in hand. It's hard to shrug off the feeling that football is no longer "our" game but a corporate farce. 

Exactly, and that corporate farce is run by tv execs with no feeling for the game

[benny]

2 hours ago, firsttimecaller said:

I'm aware this is an essay, but nevermind!

 

It’s come to the point where I feel I can’t stand by any more. A reality check needs to kick-in at some point here.

 

At the time when the league was suspended, Hearts were bottom. They were beaten 1-0 by St Mirren in a game which the vast majority of Hearts supporters, and everyone else, had labelled as “must win”. Hearts didn’t win this game, and were therefore four points adrift at the bottom of the table with eight games to play. Hearts had won four games all season. The performance at St Mirren was described variously as “meek”, “insipid” and “lacking threat”. Hearts nearest rivals for relegation were unbeaten in their last five home matches and had kept clean sheets in four of those.

 

Hearts supporters shared the view that, from a sporting point of view, they were the worst team in the league. On 14^th March, under the title of “At What point Did You Think Our Season Was Doomed?”, various posters on JKB acknowledged how poor Hearts were. Saughton Jambo, who has recently been noticeably vocal around fairness with regards to the Court of Session case, pointed out “This is worse than the 80-81 season [when Hearts were relegated]. We had an excuse back then... we don’t now”. Stan pointed out that “Going 3 down to Killie after the break … was the last chance to turn the corner and finish the season well”. Famous 1874 said that “It’s hard to say when we were doomed as we’ve been s***e all season bar a handful of results”. In a poll on the 14^th March on JKB, 12.8% of Hearts own fans acknowledged that they deserved to be relegated.

 

From a sporting perspective, Hearts were the worst football team in the league. In the match thread following the St Mirren defeat, the overall mood was disappointment and acknowledgment of how poor a team they were. In that match thread, Fozzyonthefence noted prior to the defeat “Lose on Wednesday and we’re down.  I think you’re the only person on here that doesn’t think that” in response to a poster suggesting they could stay up. JimmyCant pointed out that “We’ve got 5 key games left … We’ll need to win 4 out of those 5. That’s becoming a big ask the more you look at it.” Bear in mind, this is a Hearts team that had won four times all season.

 

On sporting merit, Hearts deserved to be relegated.

 

There is also the worrying trend emerging around Hearts supporters expressly hoping for negative outcomes for other clubs whilst at the same time becoming noticeably vocal around the concept of fairness. There is the startling example of the post on the aforementioned St Mirren matchday thread of a poster highlighting how funny it would be to beat St Mirren, sending them bottom, and then for the season to be called due to COVID19. I’m fairly certain the poster in question has had this particular post copy/pasted several times, and so I’ll spare them the reminder of it. This schadenfreude has now been replaced by hoping that other clubs go into administration, seemingly based on the assumption that they “voted against Hearts” in order to relegate them.

 

Throughout various threads, numerous assertions have been made as to which clubs people would like to go into administration. The thread titled “Administration” from 26^th June notes that some fans believe that “quite a few” will suffer this fate and that Hearts should “Get that interdict served ASAP”. Amongst others, Dundee, Hibs, St Mirren, Ross County, Hamilton and Albion Rovers are all named as clubs that posters hope enter administration, a process which results in numerous job losses and can end in financial hardship for ordinary employees. It’s noteworthy that several of these clubs were Hearts rivals within the bottom six of the league.Thank goodness for the few comments of common sense on such matters, notably Sassenach, who said “I've suffered admin events … It's horrible, and I wouldn't wish it on any fellow football fans”. Some things surely transcend sport.

 

The matter of finance also comes into play in issue. Hearts suffered a previous administration event, ultimately leading to their relegation in the 2010s. This was caused largely by financial mismanagement. Within their list of creditors, Hearts included fellow football clubs Ayr United, Livingston, Musselburgh Athletic, Stenhousemuir and Rangers. They also owed monies to a variety of public bodies, including the City of Edinburgh Council, Scottish Water and Scottish Police Authority. There are no winners in administration events. Supporter boycotts of all clubs who voted against Hearts league reconstruction proposals have been widely mentioned online.

 

To a significant extent, supporters of other clubs (the Pie & Bovril forum is a marker of this) do sympathise with the situation in which Hearts currently find themselves, but many have expressed a significant distaste for the sense of entitlement being displayed. Under the JKB thread of “Wigan Go Into Administration”, posters note that there may be “decent freebies to be had” and that this is “karma for Webstergate”. The irony and understanding of the concept of karma and justice for perceived previous wrongdoings is an interesting one.

 

Similarly, the suggestion that Dundee United are a target of Hearts fans’ dislike appears to be an interesting perspective. Taken from the thread last week on JKB  “I Used To Post On Here About Liking Dundee Utd”, Salad Fingers notes that he/she “recently developed a strong hatred of them and their fans”. The supposed crime committed by Dundee United is defending themselves and their promotion in the Court of Session and being asked to pay £50,000 for the privilege.

 

The thread posted this morning on JKB titled “Merging Clubs” highlights and reinforces the prevailing sense of entitlement amongst posters on the site, perhaps representative of the wider Hearts support. The assertion from Space Pirate that there are “far too many wee diddy clubs” and that clubs should merge underlines the contempt in which other clubs in Scotland are held.

 

As it stands, the hugely successful Foundation of Hearts brings circa £2M into the club each year from fans and it has been revealed that James Anderson has acted as a benefactor over recent times. During this time, Hearts have spent £17M on a main stand within Tynecastle and this is yet to be fully completed. During the recent Court of Session case, various figures of compensation have been raised and noted, both on JKB and within the Scottish media. It has been suggested that Hearts are seeking compensation and damages in the region of £8M.

 

Following on from the Court of Session hearing, Hearts supporters are seemingly painting the club, and Ann Budge in particular, as champions of justice, noting that there is a crucial role to be played in fighting corruption. Indeed, it has been suggested that Ann Budge previously stepped down from her role on the SPFL Board as she wanted to challenge the corruption that she saw. Reporting of the matter would seem to indicate otherwise - https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/sport/football/hearts-chairwoman-ann-budge-voted-spfl-board-583624

 

Throughout this process since March, there has been much play with regards to revisionism. The term relegated has been replaced with expelled, for instance. Interestingly, manager Daniel Stendal’s contract reputably had a clause allowing it’s termination in the event of relegation, as confirmed by both Ann Budge and Daniel Stendal. This clause was enacted. The tone and portrayal of Ann Budge has shifted too. Compare the descriptions with regards to her perceived leadership skills that were expressed on JKB during January and February to now.

 

Before Hearts continue to fall further down the rabbit hole of blaming other people, clubs and institutions, perhaps the blame needs to lie closer to home.

What have we done to Lawson to make him come back with this pish.

[Diadora Van Basten]

15 minutes ago, Col said:

Hi, I am a Tranmere Rovers fan. We are in a similar predicament, and I suspect the excellent leadership of our club is watching the Scottish situation with great interest. It is wholly unacceptable that a season comes to an unexpected early finish and clubs are punished, both in status and financially, for the position they happened to be in at the time of early termination.

 

In our case we were 3 points off safety with a game in hand. The season was stopped, and then restarted again just for teams that happened to lie 4th to 7th in the division below to have an undeserved competition to take our place. The EFL actually paid for the COVID tests on the players involved in playoffs, virtually proving that this was a solution brought about by non-footballing TV execs (Sky).

 

You have our total support in what you are seeking to achieve. Our common ground is that we have been punished as harshly as any team can ever be punished when we both have breached no football rules.

 

Stenhousemuir and Cowdenbeath used to be my favourite Scottish teams due to their cute names. Change that now to Hearts and Partick Thistle, Whether you prevail or not you have our respect for taking on the corporate bullies.

 

 

I hope Tranmere fight the injustice that has happened to them.
 

I think all clubs relegated were classed as collateral damage to the authorities.

 

I think there is now a Special bond between all teams that have been shafted in Scotland, England, Belgium and France.

[wavydavy]

57 minutes ago, Billybuffjaw said:

She's also on record as saying there are far too many clubs in Scotland. I'm playing Devils advocate btw and I don't think there's a Hearts fan out there who genuinely believes Budge would have voted for recon if we weren't bottom.

 

By making this comment you are saying she is lying. I totally disagree and believe that she practices what she preaches and is 100% honest.

 

Did she say that she would do all she could to aid a reconstruction plan? Yes she did and tried her hardest to try and get a workable format.

 

Did she warn the SPFL that if Hearts were Expelled from the SPL to the Championship that she would take legal action?  Yes she did.

 

I think you can see that she is a Woman who tells the truth unlike many she has to work with by way of the other members and Board of the SPFL.

[Beast Boy]

1 hour ago, Billybuffjaw said:

Don't let the fact he's right get in the way of a good argument. We would have done the same GUARANTEED.

No we wouldn’t. It’s quite clear Budge doesn’t operate this way. Throughout this entire shambles, she has been advocating a solution that doesn’t punish anyone unfairly. Honestly, are you that wee fat turd Leckie?

[AllyjamboDerbyshire]

16 minutes ago, Col said:

Hi, I am a Tranmere Rovers fan. We are in a similar predicament, and I suspect the excellent leadership of our club is watching the Scottish situation with great interest. It is wholly unacceptable that a season comes to an unexpected early finish and clubs are punished, both in status and financially, for the position they happened to be in at the time of early termination.

 

In our case we were 3 points off safety with a game in hand. The season was stopped, and then restarted again just for teams that happened to lie 4th to 7th in the division below to have an undeserved competition to take our place. The EFL actually paid for the COVID tests on the players involved in playoffs, virtually proving that this was a solution brought about by non-footballing TV execs (Sky).

 

You have our total support in what you are seeking to achieve. Our common ground is that we have been punished as harshly as any team can ever be punished when we both have breached no football rules.

 

Stenhousemuir and Cowdenbeath used to be my favourite Scottish teams due to their cute names. Change that now to Hearts and Partick Thistle, Whether you prevail or not you have our respect for taking on the corporate bullies.

 

 

Cheers, Col. Good to see that sporting integrity is still understood in football, amongst some of the game's supporters, at least. I still find it unbelievable that 'do no harm' was not the primary concern in the way football governance dealt with the virus fallout.

[Oneneilberry]

5 minutes ago, luckydug said:

How the **** are you still here ? 

 

Agreed if I wanted to listen to the slavering pish of other teams I’d be on P&B

[Voice of reason]

The lack of common decency and sporting integrity throughout this has been disgraceful from start to finish. Any reasonable minded person can see that the three ‘expelled’ clubs have been greatly wronged and it was totally unnecessary from Day 1. Unfortunately, some narrow minded and spiteful individuals are now tying themselves in knots trying to justify the wrongs on any platform they can access – these people should take a step back and reassess. They are now so entrenched I fear that they’ll never be shifted from their views.

 

Key points for me:

 

·         Why was the original vote only on one option that severely punished 3 clubs due to a pandemic? No consideration of reconstruction, no promotions etc. being put to a vote. Why were these options taking off the table without a vote?

 

·         Why wasn’t the only option that never punished anyone, reconstructing to a 14-10-10-10 not put forward as the preferred option right at the start? I thought the SPFL was meant to look after ‘all’ its members.

 

·         Bullying and coercion by the SPFL is well documented by various chairmen in print and on radio over the vote – absolutely damning to be honest.

 

·         Tying that one option in with getting money? Was it really essential? If not, it was akin to blackmail.

 

·         Why the rush to push through the season ending? Totally unnecessary as has been shown by other leagues completing their seasons on the playing field. Yes, it would have cost money for testing but would have saved significantly on refunds to TV companies. We could easily have played the last 8 games as has been shown elsewhere – I bet James Anderson would have even paid for it if they had asked. As for scrapping the play-offs, which would have just been 2 extra matches to play, that was a particular low – was that anything to do with SPFL board members from Hamilton and Brechin being involved in the boards’ decision making?

 

·         Why push through with playing Scottish Cup, knowing that one club, Hearts, would be at a massive disadvantage due to being unfairly expelled, resulting in not being able to train or play matches until a lot later than the other 3 semi-finalists? If you scrap the league surely you scrap the cup? Surely it’s not just continuing so Celtic can say they won another treble?

 

·         The Dundee vote is simply so farcical that no one can stick up for that and why it was allowed to happen. They voted against the proposal and it had to stand. More apparent blackmail carried out in open sight of the whole country.

 

·         The Rangers dossier: it had to go to a vote on whether it would be investigated but the SPFL own ‘Deloittes’ investigation happened in secret without any vote? Who paid for this and why was no vote needed? The SPFL appears to make up rules to suit themselves and then ignore them when it suits their agenda.

 

·         Why did the SFA not offer arbitration in April? They only offered it, along with a threat to the 3 wronged clubs, after court proceedings had started. Surely they should have offered this early rather than sitting back and watching the SPFL deliberately run down the clock.

 

·         The media and opposition supporters have always been critical of the way the SPFL is run but suddenly they are all incredibly supportive of them. It just feels like a witch-hunt against the 3 expelled teams. I’d expect the wider football family to show empathy and the punished clubs but, unfortunately, they are using what’s happened to stick the knife in. We have all heard the phrases ‘pay-back time’ etc. from certain chairmen and it’s unsavoury to say the least. Lots of media and chairmen need to take a step back and ask themselves if they have taken the wrong side on this, and for all the wrong reasons.

 

The bottom line is that the people saying that Hearts deserved to be relegated and should take their medicine are so wrong and would be arguing the absolute opposite if this happened to their club. We were only 4 points behind with 8 games to go and things can change quickly in football. We had quite recently prior to lockdown beaten Rangers twice and Hibs at Easter Road. We were blowing hot and cold but clearly capable of lifting it for big occasions. A perfect example is Werder Bremen, who were 4 points behind safety at lockdown in Germany with less games to play than we had, but survived once it resumed. We were not even the favourites with the bookies to go down at the point the league was called. As for Partick Thistle, that is simply farcical that they were relegated when a blind man could see they were going to play themselves out of it. Hearts, Partick Thistle and Stranraer did not deserve to be relegated. Sporting integrity was thrown out the window when this was voted through. As for the person saying that Ann Budge would not have voted for reconstruction if it never benefited Hearts – that’s really poor. I don’t know her but all evidence would clearly show that she has a very high moral code. I am sure she would always have done the right thing – in this case, that would mean voting to ensure not one single club would be punished due to a global pandemic.

[luckydug]

1 hour ago, John Findlay said:

You really are a sandwich short of a picnic.

He's an attention seeker or Hibs take your pick. 

He clearly knows nothing about Mrs Budge. 

[firsttimecaller]

In order to set a few points correct with regards to things I posted earlier.

 

Obviously, I don’t support Hearts, nor do I have a vested interest in the SPFL. I follow my local club, Bonnyrigg Rose.

 

No, I’m not a journalist or being paid or asked to post.

 

To be frank, I felt compelled to post on the basis I genuinely believe that the bigger picture is being missed here by supporters of Hearts on here in the dash to lay blame at everyone else’s door.