JamboAl Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 4 minutes ago, Fozzyonthefence said: Do you think Hearts have more cash in the bank than Hibs? Are you going to take my bet? Just 2 simple questions this time, let’s see if you can answer them. Q1. I couldn't give a hoot. You are the one making the assumptions! Q2. The bet is almost impossible to settle unless you write to both clubs and ask the cash position as at a date around 3 weeks ago. Even that does not take account of expected income/outgoings in the 6 months period AB has projected. It is fairly obvious you don't understand the economics of the situation but still you rattle on Do you want me to draw pictures? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beast Boy Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 Do folk honestly think Ron Gordon is going to use his money to prop up Hibs whilst they have no income? If he does, he will demand every penny is repaid with interest... through HSL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David McCaig Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 1 minute ago, Special Officer Doofy said: Do folk honestly think Ron Gordon is going to use his money to prop up Hibs whilst they have no income? If he does, he will demand every penny is repaid with interest... through HSL. It would actually be in his interests to accrue debt by paying full wages... Hibs then default on repayment... All Hibs assets are transferred to Ron Gordon as per charging orders!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fozzyonthefence Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 (edited) 12 minutes ago, JamboAl said: Q1. I couldn't give a hoot. You are the one making the assumptions! Q2. The bet is almost impossible to settle unless you write to both clubs and ask the cash position as at a date around 3 weeks ago. Even that does not take account of expected income/outgoings in the 6 months period AB has projected. It is fairly obvious you don't understand the economics of the situation but still you rattle on Do you want me to draw pictures? Clearly you do give a hoot or you wouldn’t be all over me like a cheap suit. As I expected, though, you bottled it! You come on here accusing me of talking pish but won’t put your money where your mouth is! I offered you the chance to settle it based on accounts and FYI both Hearts and Hibs have 30th June as their financial year end - would you like me to draw pictures to explain that? So accounts at 30th June 2020 might actually work in your favour if Hibs use their cash reserves rather than cut wages. Bet is still open. Edited March 31, 2020 by Fozzyonthefence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboAl Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 1 minute ago, Fozzyonthefence said: As I expected, you bottled it! You come on here accusing me of talking pish but won’t put your money where your mouth is! I offered you the chance to settle it based on accounts and FYI both Hearts and Hibs have 30th June as their financial year end - would you like me to draw pictures to explain that? So accounts at 30th June 2020 might actually work in your favour if Hibs use their cash reserves rather than cut wages. Bet is still open. Some people use a spade to dig a deeper hole. You use a keyboard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Last Laff Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 9 minutes ago, Special Officer Doofy said: Do folk honestly think Ron Gordon is going to use his money to prop up Hibs whilst they have no income? If he does, he will demand every penny is repaid with interest... through HSL. He can just use his holding on the stadium or whatever of the assets he’s got locked in and turn them into flats (oh the irony, that ones for you Sheepie). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RonnieG Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 11 minutes ago, Special Officer Doofy said: Do folk honestly think Ron Gordon is going to use his money to prop up Hibs whilst they have no income? If he does, he will demand every penny is repaid with interest... through HSL. HSL wont exist when the season re-starts. Gordon has already said he has no interest in it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
washniklaw Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 Ann Budge is a leader and I want to thank her for a quick assessment of the situation and evaluation of the action that was required to navigate through this mess. Only time will tell, but I think she is right in her course of action. Sure, she got some negative PR in the short term but I'm certain she will be able to brush off the headlines and commentaries of pundits safe in the knowledge that she has done the right things for her club. It short term vs long term and she has made decisions that will secure this club for a long time. Taking criticism is a big part of being a leader and true leadership requires people to make decisions that aren't always popular. If Hibs choose a different path I think it is the wrong one. They will mount up debt to players every day this continues and in the long run have to find the money to pay back this debt. Footballers need to be humble, football clubs need to be humble, football fans need to be humble and admit this is a terrible predicament for a club and cut back accordingly. If Hibs are that desperate for positive PR that they will saddle themselves with debt they need to consider what is important. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DETTY29 Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 1 hour ago, busby1985 said: It’ll be some mad split and still manage to get 4 old firm games I imagine. Top 8 bottom 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beast Boy Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 2 minutes ago, RonnieG said: HSL wont exist when the season re-starts. Gordon has already said he has no interest in it. He has no interest in it as a vehicle for the fans to buy his shares... he will transform it in to a vehicle to pay him back for any money he spends on Hibs. Bookmark this comment. 🐴⬆️ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RonnieG Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 1 minute ago, washniklaw said: Ann Budge is a leader and I want to thank her for a quick assessment of the situation and evaluation of the action that was required to navigate through this mess. Only time will tell, but I think she is right in her course of action. Sure, she got some negative PR in the short term but I'm certain she will be able to brush off the headlines and commentaries of pundits safe in the knowledge that she has done the right things for her club. It short term vs long term and she has made decisions that will secure this club for a long time. Taking criticism is a big part of being a leader and true leadership requires people to make decisions that aren't always popular. If Hibs choose a different path I think it is the wrong one. They will mount up debt to players every day this continues and in the long run have to find the money to pay back this debt. Footballers need to be humble, football clubs need to be humble, football fans need to be humble and admit this is a terrible predicament for a club and cut back accordingly. If Hibs are that desperate for positive PR that they will saddle themselves with debt they need to consider what is important. Ann made a pigs ear of the announcement and subsequent leaks to the press. I'm sure privately even she will admit that. I'm sure if she had spoken to the players in the first instance and explained what she was looking to do there wouldnt have been much of the poor PR she has had. All teams will do something similar if this continues for more than a few months. But it could have been handled much more positively. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fozzyonthefence Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 8 minutes ago, JamboAl said: Some people use a spade to dig a deeper hole. You use a keyboard. The irony.😂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beast Boy Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 (edited) 8 minutes ago, RonnieG said: Ann made a pigs ear of the announcement and subsequent leaks to the press. I'm sure privately even she will admit that. I'm sure if she had spoken to the players in the first instance and explained what she was looking to do there wouldnt have been much of the poor PR she has had. All teams will do something similar if this continues for more than a few months. But it could have been handled much more positively. Nah. She decided to take action to safeguard the future of the club whilst others stood around with their fingers in their bottoms like a mass Marvin Bartley tribute act. The press would have had a kick at Hearts regardless of what they did. Edited March 31, 2020 by Special Officer Doofy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TyphoonJambo Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 (edited) 7 minutes ago, DETTY29 said: Top 8 bottom 6 Top 2 bottom 12,with best of 11 for top 2.With obvious caveat that the top 2 can only be from Glasgow and be capable of hosting a 40k plus event. Edited March 31, 2020 by TypoonJambo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HMFC01 Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 27 minutes ago, David McCaig said: It would actually be in his interests to accrue debt by paying full wages... Hibs then default on repayment... All Hibs assets are transferred to Ron Gordon as per charging orders!! 13 minutes ago, Special Officer Doofy said: He has no interest in it as a vehicle for the fans to buy his shares... he will transform it in to a vehicle to pay him back for any money he spends on Hibs. Bookmark this comment. 🐴⬆️ I am liking these 2 comments. Could both happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
washniklaw Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 9 minutes ago, RonnieG said: Ann made a pigs ear of the announcement and subsequent leaks to the press. I'm sure privately even she will admit that. I'm sure if she had spoken to the players in the first instance and explained what she was looking to do there wouldnt have been much of the poor PR she has had. All teams will do something similar if this continues for more than a few months. But it could have been handled much more positively. I'm really not sure PR is that important in the short term, this is all about survival and she took quick decisive action to secure the club. Much better to have poor PR now and a club to follow than wait for everyone else to safe us or wait on the SPFL to make any decisions. She showed guts and leadership, I appreciate her actions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilberts Fridge Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 Hibs' accounts for the full year to 30 June 2019 are due today!!! Not exactly evidence of a prudently run business, leaving it to the last minute to complete the accounts is it. Lets see if they get filed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davemclaren Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 1 minute ago, Gilberts Fridge said: Hibs' accounts for the full year to 30 June 2019 are due today!!! Not exactly evidence of a prudently run business, leaving it to the last minute to complete the accounts is it. Lets see if they get filed. A fine for not filing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XB52 Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 24 minutes ago, RonnieG said: Ann made a pigs ear of the announcement and subsequent leaks to the press. I'm sure privately even she will admit that. I'm sure if she had spoken to the players in the first instance and explained what she was looking to do there wouldnt have been much of the poor PR she has had. All teams will do something similar if this continues for more than a few months. But it could have been handled much more positively. The players all knew before the announcement Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusk_Till_Dawn Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 1 hour ago, Homme said: Nice of HSL to save up for months and months and then pay about 5 days of the Hibs wage bill. Top, top fans. :pleasing: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pasquale for King Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 1 hour ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said: Don’t worry, JamboAl only exists here to muddy the waters around any criticism of the regime. Who told you that? Can you prove it? Do you have a link from a source that he finds acceptable and will then ignore anyway 😜? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pasquale for King Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 12 minutes ago, Gilberts Fridge said: Hibs' accounts for the full year to 30 June 2019 are due today!!! Not exactly evidence of a prudently run business, leaving it to the last minute to complete the accounts is it. Lets see if they get filed. No wonder I couldn’t find them anywhere, seems a long time to wait, just before they years out and possibly as long as you can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilberts Fridge Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 8 minutes ago, davemclaren said: A fine for not filing? Yes, automatic, although I don't think its large but it rises the longer the accounts are not filed. TBH I am pretty surprised that they have not been filed before today, Hibs like all companies will have an accountant firm advising them and their directors will be aware of their responsibilities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pasquale for King Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 Spurs announce 550 non playing staff to take a 20 wage cut and go on furlough, Levy wants players and management to take a cut too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam_the_legend Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 Shocking behaviour from spurs...🙄 https://www.skysports.com/share/11966191 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wavydavy Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 52 minutes ago, Special Officer Doofy said: Do folk honestly think Ron Gordon is going to use his money to prop up Hibs whilst they have no income? If he does, he will demand every penny is repaid with interest... through HSL. Of course he won't just like the major shareholders in the airlines are not going to prop up their failing companies with their own cash. Poor old Stelios could only manage to get a £60 million dividend. EasyJet founder Sir Stelios Haji-Ioannou has defended a £60 million dividend he and his siblings received from the airline 10 days before the carrier grounded all aircraft. The payout was part of a £174 million dividend made to shareholders, which was signed off in February when 'the world looked like a much happier place', he said. Stelios and his siblings are the largest single shareholders in easyJet, holding a 34% stake. In a statement, he said the cash was 'automatically' paid to shareholders on March 20 and payments were 'impossible to stop'. He hit back at calls to return the money, saying people who suggested he did so were 'naïve' and 'malicious', adding easyJet 'is not a charity'. His statement said: "I am perplexed as to how that would work? To be used how? To pay that money straight over to Airbus? "And what is the consideration for such a gift? Or is it meant as a selfless charitable donation? Charity towards which deserving cause exactly? easyJet is not a registered charity to receive donations and neither is Airbus. "That's not how publicly listed companies work." He is threatening to seek the removal of board members unless easyJet pulls out of a contract with Airbus to provide 107 aircraft, which he said will cost £4.5 billion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboAl Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 8 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said: Who told you that? Can you prove it? Do you have a link from a source that he finds acceptable and will then ignore anyway 😜? Really constructive post whch says more about you than me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dazo Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 41 minutes ago, RonnieG said: Ann made a pigs ear of the announcement and subsequent leaks to the press. I'm sure privately even she will admit that. I'm sure if she had spoken to the players in the first instance and explained what she was looking to do there wouldnt have been much of the poor PR she has had. All teams will do something similar if this continues for more than a few months. But it could have been handled much more positively. She didn’t leak it to the press and did speak to players first. Pretty much sums up how much shite you have posted. Still you worry about PR while she worries about the long term future Of the club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambo in Yorkshire Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 The 14 team league next season might end up being very simple to run. If football doesn’t return until October then it would be a 26 week season and no split. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beast Boy Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 4 minutes ago, wavydavy said: Of course he won't just like the major shareholders in the airlines are not going to prop up their failing companies with their own cash. Poor old Stelios could only manage to get a £60 million dividend. EasyJet founder Sir Stelios Haji-Ioannou has defended a £60 million dividend he and his siblings received from the airline 10 days before the carrier grounded all aircraft. The payout was part of a £174 million dividend made to shareholders, which was signed off in February when 'the world looked like a much happier place', he said. Stelios and his siblings are the largest single shareholders in easyJet, holding a 34% stake. In a statement, he said the cash was 'automatically' paid to shareholders on March 20 and payments were 'impossible to stop'. He hit back at calls to return the money, saying people who suggested he did so were 'naïve' and 'malicious', adding easyJet 'is not a charity'. His statement said: "I am perplexed as to how that would work? To be used how? To pay that money straight over to Airbus? "And what is the consideration for such a gift? Or is it meant as a selfless charitable donation? Charity towards which deserving cause exactly? easyJet is not a registered charity to receive donations and neither is Airbus. "That's not how publicly listed companies work." He is threatening to seek the removal of board members unless easyJet pulls out of a contract with Airbus to provide 107 aircraft, which he said will cost £4.5 billion. I think when it comes to Hibs, a lot of people confuse the major shareholder, with the company that owns the club, and the club itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john5698 Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 25 minutes ago, Gilberts Fridge said: Yes, automatic, although I don't think its large but it rises the longer the accounts are not filed. TBH I am pretty surprised that they have not been filed before today, Hibs like all companies will have an accountant firm advising them and their directors will be aware of their responsibilities. It is £175 for the first month. I am surprised with them publicly stating they are so good that they have not been filed yet, maybe lost the authentication codes again. It can effect your credit rating if not filed on time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Beni of Gorgie Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 3 hours ago, Special Officer Doofy said: Every single one of your posts on this website is just: ”lack of comprehension” or “irony” and a wee smilie. You bring absolutely **** all to the discussion and just attempt to troll Hearts supporters. Strange troll, absurd really Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beast Boy Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 Just now, Sir Gio said: Strange troll, absurd really Irony, failure to comprehend, as you were etc... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monsignor Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 Spurs have now told the special one and their players that they should expect wage cuts due to the Covid-19 virus! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Last Laff Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 50 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said: Who told you that? Can you prove it? Do you have a link from a source that he finds acceptable and will then ignore anyway 😜? yassss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
...a bit disco Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beast Boy Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 6 minutes ago, Monsignor said: Spurs have now told the special one and their players that they should expect wage cuts due to the Covid-19 virus! They should tell Spurs to “**** off”... oh wait... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beast Boy Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 (edited) 13 minutes ago, ...a bit disco said: No, Frank. You can **** off. Maybe if your journalists hadn’t been lining up to kick HMFC for the last couple of decades, I might have considered it. Dems the breaks and you reap what you sow. Maybe get Helen Martin to take a 50% salary cut? Arseholes. Edited March 31, 2020 by Special Officer Doofy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Last Laff Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 9 minutes ago, ...a bit disco said: Expect now the posters saying it wasn’t a good idea to do this to now change their minds collectively. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pasquale for King Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 4 minutes ago, Last Laff said: Expect now the posters saying it wasn’t a good idea to do this to now change their minds collectively. As long as folk realise that cuts will still need to happen no matter how much we raise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hungry hippo Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 17 minutes ago, ...a bit disco said: Will not be easy to market this in a way is; fair to those who can't buy tickets now, maximises income for the club, allows for the fact we do don't know which league we'll be in and how many games will be played. A very difficult balancing act to market but I'm sure the fans will back the club again although there will be usual moans no matter how it's structured. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboAl Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 12 minutes ago, Last Laff said: Expect now the posters saying it wasn’t a good idea to do this to now change their minds collectively. Or the posters who thought it might not be a good idea. Guess who posted this You’re painting the picture of clever planning and being ahead of the club .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pasquale for King Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 Gregor Townsend taking a 25% wage deferral, he’s all heart eh 😱🤔🙈😆? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beast Boy Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 7 minutes ago, Hungry hippo said: Will not be easy to market this in a way is; fair to those who can't buy tickets now, maximises income for the club, allows for the fact we do don't know which league we'll be in and how many games will be played. A very difficult balancing act to market but I'm sure the fans will back the club again although there will be usual moans no matter how it's structured. I suspect Ann has been given a heads up that there will be no relegation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hungry hippo Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 3 minutes ago, Special Officer Doofy said: I suspect Ann has been given a heads up that there will be no relegation. Even if she has, which I'm not convinced of, we wouldn't be able to state it when selling the season tickets until the SPFL actually voted for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beast Boy Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 2 minutes ago, Hungry hippo said: Even if she has, which I'm not convinced of, we wouldn't be able to state it when selling the season tickets until the SPFL actually voted for it. I don’t think we would be putting season tickets on sale, unless she knew what division we would be starting in. I also believe she’d take legal action if they attempted to relegate us. I’m convinced she’s been tipped off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
busby1985 Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 (edited) So the news about us starting to plan to sell season tickets makes me think the rumours about the league being called as is with no relegation must have substance. Suppose this equally could be said about the rumours of them calling the league and us being relegated but am gonna try be positive. Edited March 31, 2020 by busby1985 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pasquale for King Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 (edited) I don’t think I’ve ever had a favourite journalist but I do now. Edited March 31, 2020 by Pasquale for King Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clerry Jambo Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 Catastrophic Hearts' would deserve relegation by Paul Forsyth Ian Murray, an early driving force behind the Foundation of Hearts, has described as a “total and utter disgrace” the club’s failure to have made more of the £10 million ploughed into it by supporters during the last seven years. That was the total reached yesterday by the fans group, of which the Labour MP was chairman in 2013. Since then, it has helped the club out of administration and acquired nearly 8,000 members who will eventually assume ownership from Ann Budge, the majority shareholder. That transition, originally scheduled for next month, was officially put on hold yesterday because of the coronavirus crisis which has plunged Hearts into trouble on and off the pitch. Not only have they asked their staff to take a 50 per cent wage cut, but the team stand on the brink of relegation from the Ladbrokes Premiership. Amid doubts as to whether the suspended season will ever resume, Murray says that fans who have invested so much in the club deserve an explanation for the “catastrophic” failures that have left them four points adrift at the foot of the table, with serious financial difficulties. “If Hearts get relegated, they thoroughly deserve it, by a long way,” he says. “To only win four [league] games with the kind of money that has been spent on that squad, with the kind of players we have got, is a total and utter disgrace. It’s an embarrassment. "Of the four games they have won, two have been against Hibs and one against Rangers. That tells you there is an attitude problem. And that’s the thing that upsets the Hearts fans more than anything else, especially in the context of putting in 10 million quid.” Budge yesterday issued a statement in which she insisted that Hearts were in no more financial trouble than any other Scottish club. While Murray is not critical of the decision to reduce salaries, he is frustrated that the club are in such an unhealthy position. Despite the pandemic, fans are still signing up to the Foundation of Hearts and donating by direct debit. Murray believes there should be more to show for those fundraising efforts, which repaid Budge’s initial investment, part-funded the redevelopment of Tynecastle and provided the club with £4.5 million in working capital. “Ten million quid is a lot of money,” he says. “And the club looks as if it is in financial trouble because this crisis has hit. Yes, of course, we have built a new stand, but it doubled in price. There have to be big questions asked about that. Player recruitment . . . the amount of money that has been paid on a squad for managers that have not delivered . . . and they have not delivered by a catastrophic amount for a club like Hearts with all the money that the fans are putting in. It’s £10 million on top of record revenues for the club. These are difficult questions, but they are questions that fans who are still contributing to the foundation in this crisis have a right to ask. And they deserve answers.” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RonnieG Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 32 minutes ago, Last Laff said: Expect now the posters saying it wasn’t a good idea to do this to now change their minds collectively. Exactly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.