They Can't Relegate Us (Legally)

[Beast Boy]

31 minutes ago, IveSeenTheLight said:

 

I agree, not enough time to be certain of anything,

but the graph suggests that the peak from 30 cases is around 30 days. Now I accept each country has responded differently so there will be variances.

China got it back down to manageable levels within 2 months.

 

I think we'll be in lockdown all of April, probably most of May, but social distancing is potentially likely to be eased come June / July

I don’t think Italy’s figures show a definite peak yet, another few days before it can be ruled out as just being a blip. Like I said though, even if it has peaked, I seriously doubt we will be getting together in our thousands to fill football stadiums in 16 weeks from now.

[Fozzyonthefence]

1 minute ago, soonbe110 said:

Season ticket sales are absolutely essential to our top league teams, most of them anyway, surviving until football restarts in the autumn. If the football authorities can’t see that then there really is no hope. 

All the more reason for our players to accept a wage cut then.  I can see a lot of non renewals if they carry on with their current stance.

[Peebo]

3 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

We re a lot different from say South Korea that was mentioned. Completely different management and control of the virus. They don't have a lockdown, instead determined testing and tracing of carriers. 

 

Here with the virus allowed to be widespread it will be a very different 'return to normal'. 

It’s a far point. We do not know what will happen. There is a huge amount of uncertainty. But right now, I struggle to see how it could work to have the season finished through a compressed schedule of closed door games in a few months time. 

[Mikey1874]

1 minute ago, IveSeenTheLight said:

 

I agree with the position today, but again, given the trends for this virus across the world, potentially you could have a much better picture by the time UEFA are suggesting (Mid-May)

As I said earlier, I think we will be in lockdown all of April and possibly May, but I'd anticipate social distancing to start to be relaxed by June.

June therefore could be the time to get the players ready for games in July.

 

All hypothetical and possible won;t play out that way, but it has to be possible given the stats to date.

 

If I was player / Players Union that would be the first thing I would say.

 

You can't cut my wages when you might not lose any income. 

[soonbe110]

32 minutes ago, Nookie Bear said:

 

A sensible solution casually thrown out on a message board and it's sorted - over to your SPFL!

Prize money is peanuts compared to ST sales for us. 

[IveSeenTheLight]

Just now, soonbe110 said:

An awful lots of things need to get restarted before football does. Transport, schools, businesses, etc are not just going to fire up to 100% overnight. 

 

A very fair and valid point.

I'd agree that the relaxation of the restrictions will be staged.

It will happen at some point though and all were really discussion is how it will be re-introduced, not if.

When is also a debatable point, but again, it will happen at some point.

[frankblack]

4 minutes ago, IveSeenTheLight said:

 

I respectfully disagree.

 

Insurance - What clause in their insurance determines that a set number of supporter need to be in attendance before they are covered? How have other games around the world managed to be played behind closed doors?

 

Players need insurance to play and won''t get it while the pandemic is not under control and possibly without a vaccine.

 

4 minutes ago, IveSeenTheLight said:

Income - The clubs have already received income from season tickets. They are not making income at the moment, so they are not losing anything more. You could make an argument that there are expenses to cover for games, but this could be offset with subscriptionTV. I'm sure after months of no football, there would be demand.

 

Nonsense - every business has overheads to cover in wages, taxes, and other taxes even when not playing - that burns their cash.

 

They will lose money on playing closed door games also.

 

4 minutes ago, IveSeenTheLight said:

Home advantage - This is a weak argument in my opinion, again we could show games having taken place before behind closed doors and whilst I accept its not ideal, as a staged return to football (4 home games to go in this season??), I don't think this is adequate justification to dismiss. If you had the opportunity to play games behind closed doors or accept the league and positions as is, what would you choose?

 

Got to disagree - playing at home to a loud intimidating partizan crowd can get you better results at home than away.

[RonnieG]

9 minutes ago, soonbe110 said:

Hamilton and Hearts would I think. 

Yeh but thats not how the voting system works.  Why would Celtic / Rangers / Aberdeen vote to expand the league?

[Nookie Bear]

1 minute ago, soonbe110 said:

Prize money is peanuts compared to ST sales for us. 

 

But it still helps.

 

And judging by the mood on here, i wouldn't be holding out for much ST money right now.

[soonbe110]

23 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

The one problem with taking season ticket revenue now is that it means budgets will have to be cut to make the money last several months longer.

No, we are already into normal season ticket season for most clubs. Clubs finances are always largely based on using a chunk of them to get over the summer period and then matchday income and prize money covers much of the  rest 

[Peebo]

1 minute ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

If I was player / Players Union that would be the first thing I would say.

 

You can't cut my wages when you might not lose any income. 

Income has already been lost that will never be recovered. Given the impending recession (and possible depression) it would take a pretty brave economist to argue future revenue streams will not also be impacted, even once restrictions are removed. 

[frankblack]

1 minute ago, IveSeenTheLight said:

 

A very fair and valid point.

I'd agree that the relaxation of the restrictions will be staged.

It will happen at some point though and all were really discussion is how it will be re-introduced, not if.

When is also a debatable point, but again, it will happen at some point.

 

Football and other mass-attendance events like gigs/festivals will be the last to see restrictions lifted.

[soonbe110]

24 minutes ago, IveSeenTheLight said:

 

As I said, for today, yes, that is an accepted position.

In 4-5 months time if the stats reflect we are well past the peak and reduced the active / new cases to a manageable level, then why not??????

Because it serves no real purpose for anyone and some of the clubs won’t still be in existence. 

[IveSeenTheLight]

2 minutes ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

I don’t think Italy’s figures show a definite peak yet, another few days before it can be ruled out as just being a blip. Like I said though, even if it has peaked, I seriously doubt we will be getting together in our thousands to fill football stadiums in 16 weeks from now.

 

 

For your first sentence, I aggree, we need a longer period to be certain.

It certainly appears to have slowed and at least plateau'd 

 

For your second, I have not suggested that we will be filling the stadiums in 16 weeks (4 months or July). 

My point was that could it be an option in 4 months time, to have a staged return in the way of closed door games.

 

[frankblack]

Just now, soonbe110 said:

No, we are already into normal season ticket season for most clubs. Clubs finances are always largely based on using a chunk of them to get over the summer period and then matchday income and prize money covers much of the  rest 

 

Yes, but we may be looking at a 6 month gap after that which is not budgeted for.

[soonbe110]

24 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

No - there is little chance the players will be insured, teams lose income, and it means that teams lose their home advantage.  St Mirren beat us with home advantage before the suspension and we wouldn't benefit from home advantage in a game that might decide our survival.

Add in that if lockdown lasts 13 weeks then players need 3-4 weeks to recover fitness. They won’t be able to train together until late June in that scenario. 

[EIEIO]

2 hours ago, Des Lynam said:

We deserve what we get after 38 games. 

Correct anything else is guess work.

[soonbe110]

14 minutes ago, IveSeenTheLight said:

 

I respectfully disagree.

 

Insurance - What clause in their insurance determines that a set number of supporter need to be in attendance before they are covered? How have other games around the world managed to be played behind closed doors?

 

Income - The clubs have already received income from season tickets. They are not making income at the moment, so they are not losing anything more. You could make an argument that there are expenses to cover for games, but this could be offset with subscriptionTV. I'm sure after months of no football, there would be demand.

 

Home advantage - This is a weak argument in my opinion, again we could show games having taken place before behind closed doors and whilst I accept its not ideal, as a staged return to football (4 home games to go in this season??), I don't think this is adequate justification to dismiss. If you had the opportunity to play games behind closed doors or accept the league and positions as is, what would you choose?

Contracts? 

[frankblack]

1 minute ago, soonbe110 said:

Add in that if lockdown lasts 13 weeks then players need 3-4 weeks to recover fitness. They won’t be able to train together until late June in that scenario. 

 

In fairness, most of our players would probably in the same shape of fitness they have been all season if they played tomorrow

[RENE]

15 minutes ago, soonbe110 said:

SPFL meeting today cancelled so doubt it. 

Until English FA have decided.....

[soonbe110]

9 minutes ago, Fozzyonthefence said:

All the more reason for our players to accept a wage cut then.  I can see a lot of non renewals if they carry on with their current stance.

Agreed

[The Roller]

10 minutes ago, Dazo said:

Ffs what’s the point. 🙄

Don’t waste your time with him.

 

Thick as shite in a bottle.

[soonbe110]

7 minutes ago, RonnieG said:

Yeh but thats not how the voting system works.  Why would Celtic / Rangers / Aberdeen vote to expand the league?

Two clubs can stop any proposal being approved. 

[IveSeenTheLight]

Just now, Barack said:

You missing football or something?

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm sure we all are, nonetheless, we will get passed this pandemic.

Don;t get me wrong, I take this very seriously and was calling out those that were dismissive in the early stages.

I truly hope everyone gets through this and feel for those that are affected by those that don't. 

 

Nothing wrong with being positive and looking forward to a time, whenever that may be that we can get back to enjoying life as we know it.

[The Roller]

6 minutes ago, Barack said:

Genuinely unsure now if folk are taking the piss, with regards to their expectations on when football will ever start again, never mind with full stadiums.

 

I’d be surprised if it’s any time in 2020.

 

We might get back to Tynecastle at some point in 2021. Might.

[Heartsofgold]

1 minute ago, IveSeenTheLight said:

 

I agree with your statement as of today, in 4-5 months time, maybe not so.

Closed doors games has happened in the past and could be a possibility in the coming months, but I accept, only once we are well over the peak and social distancing rules start to be relaxes

 

Closed door games have happened as a one off due to circumstances,  We're talking about playing several games over an extended period.  There are 2 sensible solutions:

 

1.  Finish season now and honours/prize money is paid out as it stands.  Relegation/promotion for the teams in bottom/top places and no play offs.  Problems - Where do I begin with this one!!  Relegated teams with a fighting chance of recovery start lengthy and expensive legal action.  Not wanted by ANYONE!!!  Teams with a realistic chance of catching the top team do the same.

 

2.  Finish season now as above but no relegation and promote 2 teams up.  Keep the split after 26 games and each mini league play each other 2 times meaning same amount of games played so no extra stress on players.  Only team shafted here are the Blue Glaswegian Arse Cheek.  I can live with that.

 

What I've not seen discussed anywhere is the welfare of the players.  If they try to rush the end of this season then that's opening up a potential disaster for the players.  Yes, for the most part, they will have been doing some fitness work at home but come on!!!  Does anyone here thing that any player will be fully match fit to restart competitive professional football after a 2-4 month idle period?!?!?  Get a grip.

 

On top of this, many. many players contracts expire on 31/5/2020 not just in our team.  These contracts are strictly time limited ie finish on a specific date.  They are not related to the number of games or even to a specific league finishing date.  I can see no legally enforceable way that these contract can be extended without negotiation.

 

The only sensible, healthy option is to stop this season, let the 'air' clear and start afresh sometime in 2021/2021.  Allow the players to extend their contracts or move on and give us, the fans and supporters, clarity.

[IveSeenTheLight]

3 minutes ago, soonbe110 said:

Contracts? 

 

I'm sure it's not inconceivable to grant short term extensions / have a delay to the summer window to accommodate.

I don;t know how many players Hearts have out of contract, Aberdeen have 2 I believe.

It may be up to clubs whether they want to offer short term extensions or not.

[RonnieG]

3 minutes ago, soonbe110 said:

Two clubs can stop any proposal being approved. 

Exactly.  So a proposal to change to 14 teams is highly unlikely.

[David McCaig]

4 minutes ago, IveSeenTheLight said:

 

I'm sure it's not inconceivable to grant short term extensions / have a delay to the summer window to accommodate.

I don;t know how many players Hearts have out of contract, Aberdeen have 2 I believe.

It may be up to clubs whether they want to offer short term extensions or not.

Clubs can offer what they want... but you cant make a player accept.  It’s a much bigger issue for players at clubs like Hamilton who take short term contracts for a pittance, with an eye to being in the shop window.

[RonnieG]

3 minutes ago, Barack said:

 

If there is league(s) reconstruction, then a 75% majority of all member clubs comes into play for it to take place.

 

Not just the "big boys" at the top.

So one more after those 3 and it cant go through.  As i said I think its highly unlikely. 

[David McCaig]

4 minutes ago, Barack said:

 

If there is league(s) reconstruction, then a 75% majority of all member clubs comes into play for it to take place.

 

Not just the "big boys" at the top.

Is that in addition to the SPL 2-club veto?

 

If not, what would stop the lower league clubs voting for 2 divisions of 20?

[sac]

48 minutes ago, IveSeenTheLight said:

 

As I said, for today, yes, that is an accepted position.

In 4-5 months time if the stats reflect we are well past the peak and reduced the active / new cases to a manageable level, then why not??????

4-5 months. So you don’t think the league will have been scrapped by then?
Im sorry, but I think you’re on your own with that one.

[RonnieG]

5 minutes ago, Barack said:

You seem to think its likely that training will resume by May and Covid-19 antibodies will be given out like sweeties in a few weeks. So forgive me if I don't subscribe to your train of thought, Ronald.

Nice comeback on the point made.  Thanks for that.

[IveSeenTheLight]

6 minutes ago, sac said:

4-5 months. So you don’t think the league will have been scrapped by then?
Im sorry, but I think you’re on your own with that one.

I think we may have a better picture by mid-may to see if its possible to resume in 4-5 months.

Maybe not though.

[ramrod]

47 minutes ago, Natural Orders said:

Well we will have to agree to disagree mate

we are not good enough to stay up so why should we?!

If the season resumes we could be above Hamilton within two games.

nobody knows how the season would eventually pan out .

Its madness to accept relegation on what's gone before . 

[steve123]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-scotland-52096781

 

There is a bit on here saying plan is to finish season July/ August

[Mikey1874]

7 minutes ago, steve123 said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-scotland-52096781

 

There is a bit on here saying plan is to finish season July/ August

 

July /August is current UEFA position 

[jamboinglasgow]

UEFA now threatening leagues that dont finish the league. It appears to be based solely around the fact the top 5 leagues could lose a lot of tv money if the league ends early or called null and void. Its getting beyond a joke at the power the top 5 leagues have. 

[Calebs Grandad]

Should any team in our league go bust then their results will be wiped out and any points won from them will be deducted. Given we are absolutely sh*te this season then hopefully it will bring the sides remaining a bit closer to us. 
 

ok bit hopeful thinking but who knows 🤷🏼‍♂️

[Beast Boy]

6 minutes ago, jamboinglasgow said:

UEFA now threatening leagues that dont finish the league. It appears to be based solely around the fact the top 5 leagues could lose a lot of tv money if the league ends early or called null and void. Its getting beyond a joke at the power the top 5 leagues have. 

 

They should be VERY careful about going down this path. ****ing idiotic imo.

[Drumelzier]

On 01/04/2020 at 17:48, jonnothejambo said:

 

Cheers mate. Hope you are all well. 

 

Take care.

 

All good mate,thanks.Tried to PM you but you're not able to receive PM's ?

[Beast Boy]

4 minutes ago, jonnothejambo said:

I really do not think there will be any football this calendar year, certainly not with crowds attending. 

 

We cannot allow crowd gathering for a long time and the authorities will not take any chances.  The restrictions will need to be carefully phased out when the time comes.

How everyone else can see this except the football authorities is anyone’s guess. My personal guess is 💰 

Edited April 3, 2020 by Special Officer Doofy

[DETTY29]

This is ESPNs VAR and laws specialist.

 

Imo he is on the button so Im quite confident on his views on UEFA thinking.

 

I haven't read it in full and to determine if there is any impact on us, and he is updating just now too.

 

 

 

 

[frankblack]

6 minutes ago, DETTY29 said:

This is ESPNs VAR and laws specialist.

 

Imo he is on the button so Im quite confident on his views on UEFA thinking.

 

I haven't read it in full and to determine if there is any impact on us, and he is updating just now too.

 

 

 

 

 

European competitions are going to be out of the question until all countries have a vaccine and are back to normality, so the Belgians are spot on to ignore UEFA's threats.

[Calebs Grandad]

24 minutes ago, jonnothejambo said:

I really do not think there will be any football this calendar year, certainly not with crowds attending. 

 

We cannot allow crowd gathering for a long time and the authorities will not take any chances.  The restrictions will need to be carefully phased out when the time comes.

I tend to agree on this as we have no way of knowing that the virus has been completely wiped out. Behind closed doors events may become the norm for a long time yet. 

[Mikey1874]

9 minutes ago, DETTY29 said:

This is ESPNs VAR and laws specialist.

 

Imo he is on the button so Im quite confident on his views on UEFA thinking.

 

I haven't read it in full and to determine if there is any impact on us, and he is updating just now too.

 

 

 

 

 

More here

 

 

[DETTY29]

Not really much so far.

 

Big 5 countries want leagues and European competition to finish.

 

Netherlands are pretty much saying 'are you oblivious to what is happening?

 

Belgium same.  They are not playing out season and one of their regions mayors is saying no chance will allow games to go ahead and risk crowd gathering.

 

Belgium confident on their legal position. 

 

Above two countries have or will get full tv payouts due to 'force majeure' conditions.

 

A number of countries including Scotland still looking to align to UEFA as representative still in UEL.  Rangers have surprised us all but beating Leverkeusen by 3 goals?  Really?

 

Nothing in this about relegation threatened teams.  UEFA naturally, not interested in anyone but big boys

[Mikey1874]

 

[Mikey1874]

So much depends on different broadcast deals.

 

Cowdenbeath chairman said on Saturday UEFA and broadcasters are the key players. 

[Mikey1874]