They Can't Relegate Us (Legally)

[IveSeenTheLight]

2 minutes ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

What a massive ****ing facepalm from UEFA. Aye, we’ll all be flocking to stadia in our tens of thousands in July/August.

 

Blackmailing associations and leagues in to not putting public safety before cash. Idiotic.

 

I agree, highly unlikely, but to be fair it seems they are drawing up a number of plans and aim to advise by mid-May, which plans they wish to use.

So their saying, don;t end the leagues early. One of the plans may be for later than July / August as contingency.

Seems to me that were in for a long 6 week wait on any direction for deciding on the season

[Peebo]

1 minute ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

Fair points.

 

But more certainty will also help clubs sell season tickets. 

Season tickets are for next year. We are months away from any degree of certainty about that. 

[Mikey1874]

Just now, Peebo said:

Season tickets are for next year. We are months away from any degree of certainty about that. 

 

But they also need to know if they are getting home gates from 19/20.

 

Can't cut wages if you are going to end up with no losses. 

[Bazzas right boot]

1 hour ago, Dazo said:

Leaving all the issues aside The only clubs to be happy would be those in 1st spot. For everyone else it’s either meh or unfair. You think that’s the cleanest, fairest option ? 
 

I agree though there is no solution that will please all. 

 

All you are doing is recognizing the team that was 1st when the league ended, so yes it is fair. 

Meh would be  a good outcome for most clubs on this. 

 

I don't think nil and void is an option due to commercial reasons so what I said or there abouts is the fairest, cleanest and safest way as it mitigates the fall out across the board. 

 

[Zico]

UEFA are in fantasyland if they think there’s going to be any football played in July. 

[Beast Boy]

2 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

But more certainty will also help clubs sell season tickets. 

Not when it’s a false sense of certainty that is highly unlikely to exist in the real world where thousands of people are still dying daily of a highly infectious virus that has no vaccination nor cure. I somehow doubt we will be going about our normal lives in 12 or even 16 weeks. I’d certainly not be putting my health and safety in the hands of UEFA, put it that way.

[Beast Boy]

1 minute ago, Zico said:

UEFA are in fantasyland if they think there’s going to be any football played in July. 

 

It’s highly irresponsible of them to be blackmailing leagues and associations in to taking risks with people’s safety.

 

[frankblack]

3 minutes ago, Zico said:

UEFA are in fantasyland if they think there’s going to be any football played in July. 

 

Precisely.

 

Zero chance whatsoever of football resuming any time in the next 5 months or more considering self-isolation can't be lifted and safe distancing isn't compatible with football stadiums.  We will be lucky to have a solution in place by Christmas.

 

These clowns will put their member clubs out of business by not being able to plan and sell season tickets with no knowledge of what the fixture commitments will be or which division clubs will be in.

[Peebo]

8 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

But they also need to know if they are getting home gates from 19/20.

 

Can't cut wages if you are going to end up with no losses. 

I don’t think there are any businesses in the world that will come out this period without having suffered negative financial aspects. Cutting wages is potentially one legitimate way to try to mitigate that. Football clubs are no different.

 

If the league is officially ended now, it would help clubs plan but would undoubtedly have a negative financial impact. 

[IveSeenTheLight]

8 minutes ago, Zico said:

UEFA are in fantasyland if they think there’s going to be any football played in July. 

 

5 minutes ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

 

It’s highly irresponsible of them to be blackmailing leagues and associations in to taking risks with people’s safety.

 

 

Theres a good chance that is true, however indicators are showing that places like Spain and Italy, the 2nd and 3rd worst hit areas in the world appear to have peaked and are starting to decline.

With July three months away, is it conceivable that games could be played behind closed doors in July or August?

Maybe, maybe not, but there may be a possibility.

 

[frankblack]

2 minutes ago, IveSeenTheLight said:

 

 

Theres a good chance that is true, however indicators are showing that places like Spain and Italy, the 2nd and 3rd worst hit areas in the world appear to have peaked and are starting to decline.

With July three months away, is it conceivable that games could be played behind closed doors in July or August?

Maybe, maybe not, but there may be a possibility.

 

 

Playing games behind closed doors is only practical in leagues where TV money would compensate the refunds to season ticket holders and lack of walk-up income.  The money from a TV game in Scotland will be lucky to cover the wages of the players on the pitch never mind other overheads, and if all games weren't televised then that is a massive loss of income.

Edited April 3, 2020 by frankblack

[Clerry Jambo]

 

Barry Anderson

 

@BarryAnderson_

·

41m

 

SFA, SPFL & clubs have no plans to void the season. Would mean a legal war & cost millions. Preference is to play all matches but clubs' cash crisis is increasing pressure to end campaign now & issue prize money based on current positions (different to voiding).

[The Roller]

Fantasy.

 

Which is fine by me as the longer this is dragged on and a decision isn’t reached, the less chance there is of us being relegated.

 

When football eventually returns it’ll do so on an entirely different landscape.

 

 

[Beast Boy]

8 minutes ago, IveSeenTheLight said:

 

 

Theres a good chance that is true, however indicators are showing that places like Spain and Italy, the 2nd and 3rd worst hit areas in the world appear to have peaked and are starting to decline.

With July three months away, is it conceivable that games could be played behind closed doors in July or August?

Maybe, maybe not, but there may be a possibility.

 

Not enough data to indicate that with any certainty yet. We can but hope though. Even if it has though, we won’t be flocking to stadiums in our thousands that soon after things have peaked. 
 

Edited April 3, 2020 by Special Officer Doofy

[IveSeenTheLight]

Just now, frankblack said:

 

Playing games behind closed doors is only practical in leagues where TV money would compensate the refunds to season ticket holders and lack of walk-up income.  The money from a TV game in Scotland will be lucky to cover the wages of the players on the pitch never mind other overheads.

 

Refunds to season ticket holders? I doubt that.

Many clubs, Hearts and Aberdeen included have granted access to ST holders to their clubTV.

Maybe there is an opportunity for "walk-ups" to subscribe.

 

The clubs are not getting any revenue from games as it stands, so I'll not dismiss potentials to conclude the season and have a plan for starting the next season.

Lets hypothesize that the league games are concluded in July and August behind closed doors, maybe the Scottish cup could be concluded at the end of August / beginning of September. two week break then the next season could start mid to late September.

This all depends on the numbers, but looking at the stats and other areas (China, South Korea etc) that have been through the peak and are managing the virus in their country, it may be possible to start next season and for fans to attend in September (6 months away)

 

All depends on the numbers, but far too early to write it off in my opinion

[Peebo]

3 minutes ago, Clerry Jambo said:

 

Barry Anderson

 

@BarryAnderson_

·

41m

 

SFA, SPFL & clubs have no plans to void the season. Would mean a legal war & cost millions. Preference is to play all matches but clubs' cash crisis is increasing pressure to end campaign now & issue prize money based on current positions (different to voiding).

As I said above, dish out prize money now based on current positions if that is why clubs want league to end now; try to finish league if circumstances allow (wait and see); adjust next season’s prize money to account for any differences between league positions based on which prize money paid now and any final league position if different.

[IveSeenTheLight]

3 minutes ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

Not enough data to indicate that with any certainty yet. We can but hope though. Even if it has though, we won’t be flocking to stadiums in our thousands that soon after things have peaked. 

 

I agree, not enough time to be certain of anything,

but the graph suggests that the peak from 30 cases is around 30 days. Now I accept each country has responded differently so there will be variances.

China got it back down to manageable levels within 2 months.

 

I think we'll be in lockdown all of April, probably most of May, but social distancing is potentially likely to be eased come June / July

[Peebo]

7 minutes ago, IveSeenTheLight said:

 

Refunds to season ticket holders? I doubt that.

Many clubs, Hearts and Aberdeen included have granted access to ST holders to their clubTV.

Maybe there is an opportunity for "walk-ups" to subscribe.

 

The clubs are not getting any revenue from games as it stands, so I'll not dismiss potentials to conclude the season and have a plan for starting the next season.

Lets hypothesize that the league games are concluded in July and August behind closed doors, maybe the Scottish cup could be concluded at the end of August / beginning of September. two week break then the next season could start mid to late September.

This all depends on the numbers, but looking at the stats and other areas (China, South Korea etc) that have been through the peak and are managing the virus in their country, it may be possible to start next season and for fans to attend in September (6 months away)

 

All depends on the numbers, but far too early to write it off in my opinion

The idea of “closed door” games is a completely nonsense. It would require the application of some bespoke government restrictions to allow games to go ahead, which is hard to imagine - football is not essential under any reasonable application of the term.

 

And what happens if players display symptoms/tests positive and games have to be postponed (which would, in my opinion, inevitably happen). 

Edited April 3, 2020 by Peebo

[Nookie Bear]

5 minutes ago, Peebo said:

As I said above, dish out prize money now based on current positions if that is why clubs want league to end now; try to finish league if circumstances allow (wait and see); adjust next season’s prize money to account for any differences between league positions based on which prize money paid now and any final league position if different.

 

A sensible solution casually thrown out on a message board and it's sorted - over to your SPFL!

[ramrod]

32 minutes ago, Peebo said:

Season tickets are for next year. We are months away from any degree of certainty about that. 

The salient point is it's one of the only options available to clubs for bringing revenue in during the shut down . 

[IveSeenTheLight]

Just now, Peebo said:

The idea of “closed door” games is a completely nonsense. It would require the application of some bespoke government restrictions to allow games to go ahead, which is hard to imagine - football is not essential under any reasonable application of the term.

 

And what happens if players display symptoms/tests positive and games have to be postponed (which would, in my opinion, inevitably happen). 

 

I agree with your statement as of today, in 4-5 months time, maybe not so.

Closed doors games has happened in the past and could be a possibility in the coming months, but I accept, only once we are well over the peak and social distancing rules start to be relaxes

[Dazo]

29 minutes ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

All you are doing is recognizing the team that was 1st when the league ended, so yes it is fair. 

Meh would be  a good outcome for most clubs on this. 

 

I don't think nil and void is an option due to commercial reasons so what I said or there abouts is the fairest, cleanest and safest way as it mitigates the fall out across the board. 

 

That’s not all you’ll be doing, you’ll be Unfairly relegating teams and denying other teams promotion. You seem to be blinkered by 1st spot. 
 

Commercially as a whole I can’t see how declaring the league as is makes any positive difference. 

[Peebo]

1 minute ago, ramrod said:

The salient point is it's one of the only options available to clubs for bringing revenue in during the shut down . 

 Correct. But right now people will be taking a leap of faith as to what they are getting (number of games, will their club exist etc.) regardless of whether or not this season is “ended” now. 

[jock _turd]

33 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

UEFA have warned clubs NOT to end leagues now.

 

Seems they think games  can be played in July / August.

 

Probably delays any decision though there is UEFA meeting today.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52148695

 

I do not think there is any question that playing the season to a finish is the best thing to do... but is it practical? I am not an expert but there are some pretty clued up epidemiologists out there who say this virus has a long way to run yet... many months. Numerous quite distant events are already being cancelled  BUT for whatever reason football seems to be the one activity that will not let it go and accept the situation. What we really need is a good positive and decisive move made by football in general to give football teams a chance to get their finances in order fr what would appear to be a long period of time without any income. Of course it is all about money... or the loss of it by Uefa that is all they are interested in... football and the clubs comes a distant second!

[Peebo]

2 minutes ago, IveSeenTheLight said:

 

I agree with your statement as of today, in 4-5 months time, maybe not so.

Closed doors games has happened in the past and could be a possibility in the coming months, but I accept, only once we are well over the peak and social distancing rules start to be relaxes

I suspect anyone/club/country involved in sanctioning or participating in the closed door games related to this pandemic thoroughly regrets the decision. 

Edited April 3, 2020 by Peebo

[ramrod]

2 minutes ago, Peebo said:

 Correct. But right now people will be taking a leap of faith as to what they are getting (number of games, will their club exist etc.) regardless of whether or not this season is “ended” now. 

One solution could be to email every season ticket holder asking them if they'd consider paying a £200 deposit for their existing season ticket with a view to firming up prices when things are firmed up re fixtures and leagues . 

Would bring on some revenue if we're desperate. 

[sac]

5 minutes ago, IveSeenTheLight said:

 

I agree with your statement as of today, in 4-5 months time, maybe not so.

Closed doors games has happened in the past and could be a possibility in the coming months, but I accept, only once we are well over the peak and social distancing rules start to be relaxes

PFA Scotland have dismissed closed doors games as player safety cannot be guaranteed against Coronavirus 

[IveSeenTheLight]

1 minute ago, Peebo said:

I suspect anyone/club/county involved in sanctioning or participating in the closed door games related to this pandemic thoroughly regrets the decision. 

 

I simply meant that games have been behind closed doors, not related to theis pandemic before, for various reasons.

When we get through this, I'm certain there will be a staged relaxation of the restrictions and the suggestion of closed door games is only one to try and aid the conclusion of the season.

We will get through this, football will happen again at some point, all were really discussing is when and how its restarted.

Is it not conceivable to have closed door games before the supporters flock back?

[frankblack]

1 minute ago, ramrod said:

One solution could be to email every season ticket holder asking them if they'd consider paying a £200 deposit for their existing season ticket with a view to firming up prices when things are firmed up re fixtures and leagues . 

Would bring on some revenue if we're desperate. 

 

The one problem with taking season ticket revenue now is that it means budgets will have to be cut to make the money last several months longer.

[IveSeenTheLight]

Just now, sac said:

PFA Scotland have dismissed closed doors games as player safety cannot be guaranteed against Coronavirus 

 

As I said, for today, yes, that is an accepted position.

In 4-5 months time if the stats reflect we are well past the peak and reduced the active / new cases to a manageable level, then why not??????

[frankblack]

1 minute ago, IveSeenTheLight said:

 

I simply meant that games have been behind closed doors, not related to theis pandemic before, for various reasons.

When we get through this, I'm certain there will be a staged relaxation of the restrictions and the suggestion of closed door games is only one to try and aid the conclusion of the season.

We will get through this, football will happen again at some point, all were really discussing is when and how its restarted.

Is it not conceivable to have closed door games before the supporters flock back?

 

No - there is little chance the players will be insured, teams lose income, and it means that teams lose their home advantage.  St Mirren beat us with home advantage before the suspension and we wouldn't benefit from home advantage in a game that might decide our survival.

[ramrod]

1 minute ago, frankblack said:

 

The one problem with taking season ticket revenue now is that it means budgets will have to be cut to make the money last several months longer.

Yeah , that's why I'm against it tbh . 

Hopefully we can avoid having to do it . 

[Jambo 4 Ever]

3 hours ago, Smithee said:

 

There's no need for that mate, we're all on the same side here

Glad you agree mate that we should take it gracefully if we go down now 

[Mikey1874]

4 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

The one problem with taking season ticket revenue now is that it means budgets will have to be cut to make the money last several months longer.

 

Maybe need to explain that.

 

12 months in year.  Same amount of games if season is completed.

 

Players paid the same basic salary every month of year including July (outside of bonuses). Out of contract players issue to be confirmed.

[Peebo]

10 minutes ago, IveSeenTheLight said:

 

I simply meant that games have been behind closed doors, not related to theis pandemic before, for various reasons.

When we get through this, I'm certain there will be a staged relaxation of the restrictions and the suggestion of closed door games is only one to try and aid the conclusion of the season.

We will get through this, football will happen again at some point, all were really discussing is when and how its restarted.

Is it not conceivable to have closed door games before the supporters flock back?

Not to me. You would need restrictions to be eased and clear line of sight as to when that would happen (to allow “pre season” training, organisation, player contracts etc. etc.). The former will happen, but the latter doesn’t align with government approach so far in imposition of measures.

 

There would need to be clear contingency plans (for wider outbreak resuming, or at club/individual level).

 

I can’t see how it could work, given it would necessarily need to be over a tight time frame. 

Edited April 3, 2020 by Peebo

[Gambo]

1 hour ago, IveSeenTheLight said:

I see UEFA are condemning concluding the seasons early and stating access to European competitions could be at risk for associations doing so.

Apparently they are proposing that the leagues are finished in July and August

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52148695

 

Guess we may hear more later today

That would be 4month since last ball kicked. Stupod idea, far too big a break to be same season.

 

Null and void season including cup, renegociate sponsorship deals and get ready to start new season in August/September.

[ramrod]

4 minutes ago, Natural Orders said:

Glad you agree mate that we should take it gracefully if we go down now 

Only an idiot would agree to that 

[Jambo 4 Ever]

2 minutes ago, ramrod said:

Only an idiot would agree to that 

Well we will have to agree to disagree mate

we are not good enough to stay up so why should we?!

[soonbe110]

1 hour ago, RonnieG said:

A change to a 14 team league wont happen imo.  Its diluting the prize money for the other teams, and you will struggle to find a team that would vote for that. 

Hamilton and Hearts would I think. 

[soonbe110]

1 hour ago, IveSeenTheLight said:

I see UEFA are condemning concluding the seasons early and stating access to European competitions could be at risk for associations doing so.

Apparently they are proposing that the leagues are finished in July and August

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52148695

 

Guess we may hear more later today

SPFL meeting today cancelled so doubt it. 

[IveSeenTheLight]

4 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

No - there is little chance the players will be insured, teams lose income, and it means that teams lose their home advantage.  St Mirren beat us with home advantage before the suspension and we wouldn't benefit from home advantage in a game that might decide our survival.

 

I respectfully disagree.

 

Insurance - What clause in their insurance determines that a set number of supporter need to be in attendance before they are covered? How have other games around the world managed to be played behind closed doors?

 

Income - The clubs have already received income from season tickets. They are not making income at the moment, so they are not losing anything more. You could make an argument that there are expenses to cover for games, but this could be offset with subscriptionTV. I'm sure after months of no football, there would be demand.

 

Home advantage - This is a weak argument in my opinion, again we could show games having taken place before behind closed doors and whilst I accept its not ideal, as a staged return to football (4 home games to go in this season??), I don't think this is adequate justification to dismiss. If you had the opportunity to play games behind closed doors or accept the league and positions as is, what would you choose?

[Dazo]

Just now, Natural Orders said:

Well we will have to agree to disagree mate

we are not good enough to stay up so why should we?!

Had enough of this we aren’t good enough or we deserve to go down chat. Yes we’ve been poor but that hasn’t been decided yet, the league isn’t finished. 

[Unknown user]

9 minutes ago, Natural Orders said:

Glad you agree mate that we should take it gracefully if we go down now 

 

Bloody hell, is it Opposite Day already?

[Mikey1874]

11 minutes ago, Peebo said:

Not to me. You would need restrictions to be eased and clear line of sight as to when that would happen (to allow “pre season” training, organisation, player contracts etc. etc.). The former will happen, but the latter doesn’t align with government approach so far in imposition of measures.

 

There would need to be clear contingency plans (for wider outbreak resuming, or at club/individual level).

 

I can’t see how it could work, given it would necessarily need to be over a tight time frame. 

 

We re a lot different from say South Korea that was mentioned. Completely different management and control of the virus. They don't have a lockdown, instead determined testing and tracing of carriers and their contacts. 

 

Here with the virus allowed to be widespread it will be a very different and difficult 'return to normal'. 

Edited April 3, 2020 by Mikey1874

[Jambo 4 Ever]

Just now, Dazo said:

Had enough of this we aren’t good enough or we deserve to go down chat. Yes we’ve been poor but that hasn’t been decided yet, the league isn’t finished. 

Yeh but we don’t deserve to stay up - we have been garbage 

[soonbe110]

1 hour ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

Fair points.

 

But more certainty will also help clubs sell season tickets. 

 

And they will know whether or not they are getting home gates etc from 19/20. Help them with player wage cuts. 

Season ticket sales are absolutely essential to our top league teams, most of them anyway, surviving until football restarts in the autumn. If the football authorities can’t see that then there really is no hope. 

[Dazo]

2 minutes ago, IveSeenTheLight said:

 

I respectfully disagree.

 

Insurance - What clause in their insurance determines that a set number of supporter need to be in attendance before they are covered? How have other games around the world managed to be played behind closed doors?

On insurance would it not be centred round playing during pandemic and/or while a threat from Covid 19 ? I’m pretty sure clauses and terms and conditions will be getting altered to all clubs insurance policies right now regarding this. 

[IveSeenTheLight]

6 minutes ago, Peebo said:

Not to me. You would need restrictions to be eased and clear line of sight as to when that would happen (to allow “pre season” training, organisation, player contracts etc. etc.). The former will happen, but the latter doesn’t align with government approach so far in imposition of measures.

 

There would need to be clear contingency plans (for wider outbreak resuming, or at club/individual level).

 

I can’t see how it could work, given it would necessarily need to be over a tight time frame. 

 

I agree with the position today, but again, given the trends for this virus across the world, potentially you could have a much better picture by the time UEFA are suggesting (Mid-May)

As I said earlier, I think we will be in lockdown all of April and possibly May, but I'd anticipate social distancing to start to be relaxed by June.

June therefore could be the time to get the players ready for games in July.

 

All hypothetical and possible won;t play out that way, but it has to be possible given the stats to date.

[soonbe110]

47 minutes ago, IveSeenTheLight said:

 

 

Theres a good chance that is true, however indicators are showing that places like Spain and Italy, the 2nd and 3rd worst hit areas in the world appear to have peaked and are starting to decline.

With July three months away, is it conceivable that games could be played behind closed doors in July or August?

Maybe, maybe not, but there may be a possibility.

 

An awful lots of things need to get restarted before football does. Transport, schools, businesses, etc are not just going to fire up to 100% overnight. 

[Dazo]

3 minutes ago, Natural Orders said:

Yeh but we don’t deserve to stay up - we have been garbage 

Ffs what’s the point. 🙄