The rise and fall of The SNP.

[The Mighty Thor]

1 hour ago, Des Lynam said:

If Scotland is such a cost to the UK then why is there opposition to independence from Westminster? 

The one question the boys can never ever answer. 

 

The best they seem to be able to come up with is some misty eyed bollocks rooted in a time when Britannia ruled the waves and their glorious empire was in full swing. A historical 'Better Together' if you will.

 

Time has moved on, except for the two world wars, one world cup types who bought the Global Britain, take back control nonsense spewed out by Farage, Johnson and Gove.  

 

The UK is an irrelevance in the UK let alone around the rest of the planet.

[The Real Maroonblood]

1 hour ago, Des Lynam said:

If Scotland is such a cost to the UK then why is there opposition to independence from Westminster? 

That’s always a pertinent question.

Would like to here a answer to that.

[Roxy Hearts]

30 minutes ago, Japan Jambo said:

 

feel free to lay out your vision by answering the questions. If you don't know what you want and Boris isn't fussed with the detail it could be a cluster**** of monumental proportions...

 

 

I don't need a vision. I'll accept independence warts and all. I've no doubts whatsoever that the people living in Scotland would work to make it successful but it would be difficult at first. We have a  well educated population to overcome any issues. All IMO.

[The Mighty Thor]

18 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

It's not a strategy, it's international law 🤷‍♂️

International laws are there to be broken 'in limited and specific ways' Smithee.

 

Only when it suits the narrative, naturally 😉

[Japan Jambo]

1 minute ago, Roxy Hearts said:

I don't need a vision. I'll accept independence warts and all. I've no doubts whatsoever that the people living in Scotland would work to make it successful but it would be difficult at first. We have a  well educated population to overcome any issues. All IMO.

 

so basically the Brexiteer argument then, cool.

[Roxy Hearts]

33 minutes ago, lost in space said:

Ah, he's an idiot is he??? Aye, very good - he did his bit to save us but he's an idiot according to you.

Why don't YOU have a go at answering the questions???

I'm not a politician or economist and not a single poster on here has the answers! Yes he's an idiot but I'm grateful that he assisted as did many others. He's a typical, obstinate, self loathing, cringing Britnat! Don’t trust him in the slightest and never has a good word to say about Scotland. 

[Jeffros Furios]

Sturgeon did state in an interview on Radio4 (I think) that Scotland would take its share of national debt .

Would we get EU membership with such an amount of debt ? 

 

[Boab]

2 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

The one question the boys can never ever answer. 

 

The best they seem to be able to come up with is some misty eyed bollocks rooted in a time when Britannia ruled the waves and their glorious empire was in full swing. A historical 'Better Together' if you will.

 

Time has moved on, except for the two world wars, one world cup types who bought the Global Britain, take back control nonsense spewed out by Farage, Johnson and Gove.  

 

The UK is an irrelevance in the UK let alone around the rest of the planet.

As a yes voter last time, I disagree, mate. Regardless of peoples' views on Britain's past, the geo-political status of the North Atlantic is as important to the UK as it's ever been. 

The claptrap fear project that the better together campaign ramped up last time was ridiculous, with Lamont et al outside Asda saying the price of food would go up.

I think most knew it was all bollocks but try talking national security and future military strategy to the general public and they would look at you like a cow watching a train go past !

[Roxy Hearts]

5 minutes ago, Japan Jambo said:

 

so basically the Brexiteer argument then, cool.

Majority voted for it 😉

[Japan Jambo]

2 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

Majority voted for it 😉

 

not in Scotland 😉 

[Unknown user]

6 minutes ago, Jeffros Furios said:

Sturgeon did state in an interview on Radio4 (I think) that Scotland would take its share of national debt .

Would we get EU membership with such an amount of debt ? 

 

Sturgeon's an arsehole too

[Roxy Hearts]

1 minute ago, Japan Jambo said:

 

not in Scotland 😉 

Don't tell unionists that! They'll have a fit 😆

[The Mighty Thor]

9 minutes ago, Boab said:

As a yes voter last time, I disagree, mate. Regardless of peoples' views on Britain's past, the geo-political status of the North Atlantic is as important to the UK as it's ever been. 

The claptrap fear project that the better together campaign ramped up last time was ridiculous, with Lamont et al outside Asda saying the price of food would go up.

I think most knew it was all bollocks but try talking national security and future military strategy to the general public and they would look at you like a cow watching a train go past !

The geo- political status and protecting the North Atlantic corridor is important if pretending you're a player on the global stage and a military power is your thing. 

Those days are gone for the UK. The only place the UK projects power is between the lugs of those two world wars types and of course in the mind of the man who thinks he's the Churchill of the modern age. 

The same man who accelerated the decline in the UKs power by removing it from the security and information sharing of a 27 country block.

You see the pattern emerging here?

[Boab]

3 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

The geo- political status and protecting the North Atlantic corridor is important if pretending you're a player on the global stage and a military power is your thing. 

Those days are gone for the UK. The only place the UK projects power is between the lugs of those two world wars types and of course in the mind of the man who thinks he's the Churchill of the modern age. 

The same man who accelerated the decline in the UKs power by removing it from the security and information sharing of a 27 country block.

You see the pattern emerging here?

It's a far bigger thing than that rice pudding in a suit, I think we can agree there. If a crisis developed, they'd sedate him and lock him in a cupboard.

As I say, we are only one of nine states with nuclear capability. How that is maintained and deployed has a bearing on this part of the world.

Don't get me wrong, not much would change in the same way the Yanks have bases all over the world.

[pablo]

Some delicious reading over the last page or so.

 

Tinfoil Tam O'Shanters having to suspend all economic, legislative and democratic reality to make a case for breaking up the UK.

 

 

[Unknown user]

Meanwhile, on planet Pablo...

 

9 minutes ago, pablo said:

Some delicious reading over the last page or so.

 

Tinfoil Tam O'Shanters having to suspend all economic, legislative and democratic reality to make a case for breaking up the UK.

 

 

 

[coconut doug]

6 minutes ago, Japan Jambo said:

 

so the debt just vanishes into thin air does it? Here is some more homework for you;

 

Ian Murray’s top ten:

1. What would the currency of an independent Scotland be?

2. Would the Scottish Government raise taxes or make public service cuts to make up the current fiscal deficit of 22.4% of GDP?

3. What measures would you take to ensure Scotland remains in the UK single market, and how would this be compatible with joining the European Union?

4. Would an independent Scotland accept the Euro in order to join the European Union?

5. Would there be freedom of movement between Scotland and England? How would work if Scotland is part of the European single market?

6. Will oil form the basis of the economic plan for an independent Scotland as it did in 2014?

7. How would you protect the pensions of people who have paid into the UK wide state pension scheme?

8. Would Scots not living Scotland be able to vote? Would the captain of the Scottish football team get a vote in an independence referendum?

9. Given its taken years to start using devolved welfare powers, how long does the SNP estimate it will take to setup an independent state?

10. What would the eligibility criteria be for citizenship of an independent Scotland?

 

  All these questions have been answered countless times on here. It's not the fault of Indy supporters if people like Murray continue to pretend that they are unaware of the answers. 

I'll give you some

 

 1. The current policy is a Scottish currency.

 

2. Scotland does not have a fiscal deficit as scotland does not spend around 50% of the expenditure atributed to it. 

 

3. If Scotland were to join the EU the trading arrangements with rUk would be determined by the EU. Any attempt to damage trade for Scotland would result in even more damage for RUK. Scotland could not take any measures as these things are decided by the EU. A stupid question imo.

 

4. A hypothetical question as there is no requirement to join the Euro for new members. There is a requirement to move towards it but some who joined years ago still have not done so. Murray knows this but like so many others in his position he wont be straight about it.

 

5. There are no border restrictions between Ireland and Northern Ireland so why would there be between Scotland and England? Goods may face checks same as now in NI but that would be England's choice if they don't want a free trade deal.

 

6. No, and it wasn't the last time where oil was described as a bonus. 

 

7. Just like every other country Scotland would pay it's own people their own pensions. Presumably residents of all part of the former UK would receive their full pensions paid for by their new governments. Why would pensions need to be protected? Who is attacking them? Surely in an Indy Scotland the pension burden would be smaller anyway.

 

8. People with scottish heritage should be able to vote in Scottish elections if they want. It is a choice though, you shouldn't be able to vote in elections in countries you are not a citizen of. Maybe we should be like Australia and compel all our ciizens to vote in every election. Residents of other countries should not get the opportunity to vote in a referendum though unless their foreign residence is temporary. There are not many people in this category.

 

9. We did not take some welfare powers because the terms on which they were offered were deemed onerous. As we already have many national functions it should be relatively easy for them to adapt to Indy. I think 18 months was a figure considered reasonable.

 

10. Presumably that would be similar to that of other countries. Why would it not be?

 

There are of course a number of questions which could be raised about continued membership of the UK.

 

1. When can we expect an honest and competent government in Westminster?

 

2. When will we see a stop to the increase in inequality both socially and geographically across the UK?

 

3. What is being done to mitigate against the disproportionately bad trading effects caused to Scotland by leaving the EU.

 

4. Can we expect that Northern Ireland will continue to be treated more favourably than other parts of the UK and can we conclude from this that in the UK those who use violence and threaten violence will be rewarded for it.

 

5. When can we expect to have in place a foreign policy that prioritises the needs of our country and our region rather than doing everything we possibly can to attach ourselves to the U.S?

 

6.When will we stop inventing excuses to justify our involvement in the destruction of countries like Iraq, Syria and Libya?

 

7. When will the U.K. stop arming, training and supporting the most despotic regimes on the planet including Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Bahrain and UAE.

 

8. When will we improve our democracy by abolishing the HoL and introducing proportional representation? Given that the Labour party have been promising to ablolish the HoL for over a hundred years, how long do you think it will be before we manage it?

 

9. When can we expect to pay pensions that are not amongst the lowest in the developed world?

 

10. Can we ever expect the U.K. to have an economic plan or is everything to be left to market forces?

[JudyJudyJudy]

Oi oi  well well well shes a right crafty  one that Nicky .  Has an emergency press conference about Covid on the same day she has her Conference speech. Guess which one completely dominates the headlines ?????????? 

 

[Japan Jambo]

6 minutes ago, JamesM48 said:

Oi oi  well well well shes a right crafty  one that Nicky .  Has an emergency press conference about Covid on the same day she has her Conference speech. Guess which one completely dominates the headlines ?????????? 

 

 

Very capable politician, cute move. Kicking Indy ref into the long weeds again - end of '23 now, but throw in a wee bribe and hey presto nothing to see here. A cynic might suggest she's not bought into the idea, I've a feeling she has knows fine well the economics don't work.

[pablo]

15 minutes ago, Japan Jambo said:

 

Very capable politician, cute move. Kicking Indy ref into the long weeds again - end of '23 now, but throw in a wee bribe and hey presto nothing to see here. A cynic might suggest she's not bought into the idea, I've a feeling she has knows fine well the economics don't work.

 

All her supporters care about is Independence, so she has to throw them something. But it's not happening. Free thinking Scots understand this.

 

Far easier to string the hard-core along than talking about the Queen Elizabeth Hospital scandal, Ferry cock ups and the like.

 

 

Edited November 29, 2021 by pablo

[JudyJudyJudy]

15 minutes ago, Japan Jambo said:

 

Very capable politician, cute move. Kicking Indy ref into the long weeds again - end of '23 now, but throw in a wee bribe and hey presto nothing to see here. A cynic might suggest she's not bought into the idea, I've a feeling she has knows fine well the economics don't work.

How can people not see this ? No need to answer,  There are none so blind as those who will not see”

 

[Japan Jambo]

1 minute ago, pablo said:

 

All her supporters care about is Independence, so she has to throw them something. But it's not happening. Free thinking Scots understand this.

 

Far easier to spin the hard-core along than talking about the Queen Elizabeth Hospital scandal, Ferry cock ups and the like.

 

 

 

Just looking at 'The National' (I presume this is a giveaway pamphlet and not a serious publication?) and see wee Eck on maneuvers with Joanna Cherry, wonder if Alba may start to pick up some of those who are actually serious about change?

[Alex Kintner]

5 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

All her supporters care about is Independence, so she has to throw them something. But it's not happening. Free thinking Scots understand this.

 

Far easier to string the hard-core along than talking about the Queen Elizabeth Hospital scandal, Ferry cock ups and the like.

 

 

Didn’t the Tories try to argue that not all SNP voters were Indy voters? 🤔

[JudyJudyJudy]

7 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

All her supporters care about is Independence, so she has to throw them something. But it's not happening. Free thinking Scots understand this.

 

Far easier to spin the hard-core along than talking about the Queen Elizabeth Hospital scandal, Ferry cock ups and the like.

 

 

She's like a downmarket plain Jane , Eva Peron,  giving out freebies to the descamisado.- the  " poor",   to increase her popularity and create a culture of dependency on the state really.  

 

 

 

Scottish child payment to double to £20 from April, says Sturgeon | Nicola Sturgeon | The Guardian

 

[Konrad von Carstein]

17 minutes ago, JamesM48 said:

She's like a downmarket plain Jane , Eva Peron,  giving out freebies to the descamisado.- the  " poor",   to increase her popularity and create a culture of dependency on the state really.  

 

 

 

Scottish child payment to double to £20 from April, says Sturgeon | Nicola Sturgeon | The Guardian

 

Don't talk shite James...

[Enzo Chiefo]

2 hours ago, Smithee said:

 

It doesn't really matter how you see it, the People's Republic of Scotland would be an entirely different legal entity from the one obliged to pay the debt.

That's how it works, sometimes even the bank makes a loss. It's all very sad of course.

People's Republic of Scotland 🤣🤣

What a dark, dank, depressing place that would be. Full state control and the likes of Sturgeon, Sheridan and Harvie telling you what you can eat,say, drink and think.

Thankfully we have the UK and the monarchy, a tier of excellence that protects the people from career politicians. 

[lost in space]

2 hours ago, Roxy Hearts said:

I'm not a politician or economist and not a single poster on here has the answers! Yes he's an idiot but I'm grateful that he assisted as did many others. He's a typical, obstinate, self loathing, cringing Britnat! Don’t trust him in the slightest and never has a good word to say about Scotland. 

I partly agree - no-one has the answers to these questions - which is why Ian Murray asked them!

I don't like many politicians in Westminster or Holyrood- but I don't think they are idiots.

Understand that you don't like Murray or have no respect for him but calling him an idiot does not show that you are very balanced - imo, of course.

[Francis Albert]

3 hours ago, Des Lynam said:

If Scotland is such a cost to the UK then why is there opposition to independence from Westminster? 

Nations have a tendency to oppose break up. The USA would probably have been better off if it the time if it had accepted the break away of the generally backward and poorer Confederate States. Instead it killed and maimed a generation at great cost to save the Union. Don't by the way suggest the motive was to free slaves.

Spain and Italy and even France would be better off if they accepted separation of some areas with independence movememts. Instead they suppress those movements strongly.

 

 

[Roxy Hearts]

2 minutes ago, lost in space said:

I partly agree - no-one has the answers to these questions - which is why Ian Murray asked them!

I don't like many politicians in Westminster or Holyrood- but I don't think they are idiots.

Understand that you don't like Murray or have no respect for him but calling him an idiot does not show that you are very balanced - imo, of course.

I tend to call people idiots that see others as the same and in my opinion he treats certain Scots with disdain. 

 

I'm not here for balance. I'm a fully fledged supporter of independence.

[Konrad von Carstein]

26 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

People's Republic of Scotland 🤣🤣

What a dark, dank, depressing place that would be. Full state control and the likes of Sturgeon, Sheridan and Harvie telling you what you can eat,say, drink and think.

Thankfully we have the UK and the monarchy, a tier of excellence that protects the people from career politicians. 

 

 

[lost in space]

56 minutes ago, Alex Kintner said:

Didn’t the Tories try to argue that not all SNP voters were Indy voters? 🤔

Of course not all SNP supporters want Indy. You would be mad to think otherwise.

Of course the majority do want Indy but there are voters who vote SNP because their MSP is good at their job and there are tactical voters who vote SNP to stop a Tory win.

 

 

[JudyJudyJudy]

2 minutes ago, jonesy said:

Ha! The wish.com Evita!

mare like wish,com Ryvita 

[lost in space]

3 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

I tend to call people idiots that see others as the same and in my opinion he treats certain Scots with disdain. 

 

I'm not here for balance. I'm a fully fledged supporter of independence.

OK, take your point. Personally, I feel disdain for many politicians who are not idiots.

Re balance - thanks for that clarity - though not really required.😇

[Savage Vince]

1 hour ago, pablo said:

Free thinking Scots understand this.

 

Which political parties have these 'free thinking' Scots been voting for since 2014? 😊

[Alex Kintner]

1 hour ago, JamesM48 said:

She's like a downmarket plain Jane , Eva Peron,  giving out freebies to the descamisado.- the  " poor",   to increase her popularity and create a culture of dependency on the state really.  

 

 

 

Scottish child payment to double to £20 from April, says Sturgeon | Nicola Sturgeon | The Guardian

 

Jesus wept, James. Even by your standards that’s a shocker.
 

Finding fault in her doubling payments to children living in poverty

 

 

[Roxy Hearts]

8 minutes ago, lost in space said:

OK, take your point. Personally, I feel disdain for many politicians who are not idiots.

Re balance - thanks for that clarity - though not really required.😇

👍

[JudyJudyJudy]

6 minutes ago, Alex Kintner said:

Jesus wept, James. Even by your standards that’s a shocker.
 

Finding fault in her doubling payments to children living in poverty

 

 

I've lived in the real world Alex. 

[Alex Kintner]

2 minutes ago, JamesM48 said:

I've lived in the real world Alex. 

Where families living in poverty don’t deserve help? 
 

 

[JudyJudyJudy]

7 minutes ago, Alex Kintner said:

Where families living in poverty don’t deserve help? 
 

 

What's your definition of poverty ? 

[Alex Kintner]

1 minute ago, JamesM48 said:

What's your definition of poverty ? 

Families on low income and/or benefits who struggle to make ends meet. Families where an extra £10 a week makes a huge, huge difference. 

[Savage Vince]

15 minutes ago, JamesM48 said:

I've lived in the real world Alex. 

 

Who did you vote for in the last General Election? 

[JudyJudyJudy]

Just now, Savage Vince said:

 

Who did you vote for in the last General Election? 

SNP 

[JudyJudyJudy]

1 minute ago, Alex Kintner said:

Families on low income and/or benefits who struggle to make ends meet. Families where an extra £10 a week makes a huge, huge difference. 

Why do they " struggle " to make ends meet ? 

[Konrad von Carstein]

1 minute ago, JamesM48 said:

Why do they " struggle " to make ends meet ? 

[JudyJudyJudy]

3 minutes ago, Alex Kintner said:

Families on low income and/or benefits who struggle to make ends meet. Families where an extra £10 a week makes a huge, huge difference. 

Why are they on a " low income?  Do they work full time ? Mayne that may help ? After all there is nursery and school provision to help and also tapered council tax and housing benefit to help with those bills ? Maybe encourage employers to substantially increase wages so those people can work full time ? 

[JudyJudyJudy]

2 minutes ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

Budgeting skills for people can be of help. 

[Des Lynam]

1 minute ago, JamesM48 said:

Why are they on a " low income?  Do they work full time ? Mayne that may help ? After all there is nursery and school provision to help and also tapered council tax and housing benefit to help with those bills ? Maybe encourage employers to substantially increase wages so those people can work full time ? 

It’s not that simple James. And is it the kids fault that they live in a low income family? 

[Savage Vince]

6 minutes ago, JamesM48 said:

SNP 

 

My arse 😁

 

Tell the truth. 

[Japan Jambo]

Politics Live has John Nicolson on it today - worth a watch...

[Ked]

Not sure how the benefit system works.

But I worry about increasing benefits to low paid .

I'm happy for benefits to those who genuinely cannot work.

But lower taxes means you dont get caught in benefit trap.

The 40% tax for earnings over 43 thousand is criminal .

As is the 26% you pay under that which includes worthless private pensions.

For the working poor in Edinburgh there is not much change left if you earn 13 pounds an hour or less.

For those of us on more it's a squeeze.

I've worked plenty this year and I'm now approaching the point of 40% tax.

And I am livid about that.

I have grafted and put in a lot of hours to see the jobs through .

Benefits are fine to catch those who need caught .

Lower taxes are better for those who can and do provide for their children .

Giving an extra tenner a week wont cut poverty.

Proper pay and less tax does.

Extra cash in working peoples pocket circulates better.

High tax doesnt work and especially is proven not to raise living standards for the poor.