The rise and fall of The SNP.

[The Real Maroonblood]

1 hour ago, XB52 said:

Saleemul Huq, director of the International Center for Climate Change and Development, praised the FM as becoming the "true leader" who has emerged from this summit.

[Japan Jambo]

1 hour ago, Roxy Hearts said:

Fair enough. I just want the opportunity for a clean slate on everything!

 

alas not, there is the small (well not so small actually) issue of the national debt that needs factored into the equation. Obviously a proud independent Scotland would naturally be happy to bear it's fair share rather than bolting from the restaurant when the bill arrives like a degenerate jakey. 

Edited November 29, 2021 by Japan Jambo

[JudyJudyJudy]

16 minutes ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

Who ? 

[The Real Maroonblood]

9 minutes ago, JamesM48 said:

Who ? 

Nicola if she rattles anyone's cage.

[Unknown user]

27 minutes ago, Japan Jambo said:

 

alas not, there is the small (well not so small actually) issue of the national debt that needs factored into the equation. Obviously a proud independent Scotland would naturally be happy to bear it's fair share rather than bolting from the restaurant when the bill arrives like a degenerate jakey. 

 

Can you list the examples where a successor state has had to start burdened by the debt of another government?

 

If this is so obvious, it must be the norm, right?

[Alex Kintner]

1 hour ago, manaliveits105 said:

Which turned out to be a pile of shite 

They provided their economic analysis. If you didn’t like it, you vote against it. It’ll be the same next time.

 

1 hour ago, pablo said:

 

There's no prospect of another referendum and certainly not one within the lifetime of this Parliament.
 

What makes you think that?

 

1 hour ago, pablo said:

 

There's not even a sustained majority in favour of having one.

 

There is. Recent opinion polling since the election has consistently shown a majority in favour of there being a referendum. Most polls have shown a slight leaning towards voting No though so not sure if that’s what you’re getting mixed up with 🤷🏻‍♂️

[Hmfc1965]

8 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

Can you list the examples where a successor state has had to start burdened by the debt of another government?

 

If this is so obvious, it must be the norm, right?

I would assume it is.

[Japan Jambo]

3 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

Can you list the examples where a successor state has had to start burdened by the debt of another government?

 

If this is so obvious, it must be the norm, right?

 

well for a start it isn't another government it the government of the UK, of which Scotland is a part.

 

In terms of divorce bills look no further than Brexit. 

 

If you want to leave be prepared to get your credit card out, no more one last last round of giveaways before jumping out the window in the bogs and legging it. 🙂 

 

 

 

[Des Lynam]

Unless the SNP answer the currency question then sadly the independence vote will lose again. 

[Unknown user]

8 minutes ago, Japan Jambo said:

 

well for a start it isn't another government it the government of the UK, of which Scotland is a part.

 

In terms of divorce bills look no further than Brexit. 

 

If you want to leave be prepared to get your credit card out, no more one last last round of giveaways before jumping out the window in the bogs and legging it. 🙂 

 

Sorry mate, I assumed you knew what a successor state was.

 

I'm talking about where a small country (the successor) breaks away from a larger entity (the continuator) - EXACTLY the situation if Scotland left the UK.

 

In the many, many changes of statehood in history, far too many to list, how many successor states have been burdened by debt the larger entity built up?

 

I know the answer.

Once, a country in Africa god knows how long ago took a few billion of debt.

 

There is no legal or moral obligation to take on UK debt.

 

And anyway, why would you want our children and grandchildren to be burdened with enormous debt against any expectation of international law? 

[Konrad von Carstein]

1 hour ago, Beni said:

 

You voted for it though, so you're obviously not against independence in principle.

What would have to change now for you to rejoin the Independence campaign?

 

[Japan Jambo]

8 minutes ago, Des Lynam said:

Unless the SNP answer the currency question then sadly the independence vote will lose again. 

 

from 2013...

 

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201213/ldselect/ldeconaf/152/15215.htm

[Des Lynam]

1 minute ago, Japan Jambo said:

 

from 2013...

 

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201213/ldselect/ldeconaf/152/15215.htm

 

The pound sterling option has gone thanks to Brexit. 

[Japan Jambo]

1 minute ago, Smithee said:

 

Sorry mate, I assumed you knew what a successor state was.

 

I'm talking about where a small country (the successor) breaks away from a larger entity (the continuator) - EXACTLY the situation if Scotland left the UK.

 

In the many, many changes of statehood in history, far too many to list, how many successor states have been burdened by debt the larger entity built up?

 

I know the answer.

Once, a country in Africa god knows how long ago took a few billion of debt.

 

There is no legal or moral obligation to take on UK debt.

 

And anyway, why would you want our children and grandchildren to be burdened with enormous debt against any expectation of international law? 

 

The only thing clear here in Smithee is that your vision of an Independent Scotland entails a free handout on day one - with all debts forgiven. Clearly you have no compulsions about English grandchildren picking up the tab for you.

[Unknown user]

1 minute ago, Japan Jambo said:

 

The only thing clear here in Smithee is that your vision of an Independent Scotland entails a free handout on day one - with all debts forgiven. Clearly you have no compulsions about English grandchildren picking up the tab for you.

 

Scotland has no debt, there is no legal or moral obligation to take any with us, never has been.

 

If you want to contact Westminster and take your share on to satisfy your sense of fairness, by all means contact them.

[Des Lynam]

3 minutes ago, Japan Jambo said:

 

The only thing clear here in Smithee is that your vision of an Independent Scotland entails a free handout on day one - with all debts forgiven. Clearly you have no compulsions about English grandchildren picking up the tab for you.

If Scotland is such a cost to the UK then why is there opposition to independence from Westminster? 

[Unknown user]

23 minutes ago, Hmfc1965 said:

I would assume it is.

 

Many would, it isn't though.

[Enzo Chiefo]

3 hours ago, Alex Kintner said:

Without going into this tired old argument again, there’s a majority of MPs in Holyrood who stood on a manifesto of implementing of second referendum. That’s a democratic mandate however you try to spin it.

A point blank refusal by Westminster (which they’re carefully avoiding just now) just adds more people to the side of wanting a referendum. There’s a lot of people out there who are No voters but still recognise that we have the right to decide our own future. Some of those No’s will turn to Maybe’s the longer WM resists.

But a devolved administration, regardless of the numbers, has no mandate to vote or opine on reserved powers.

DC sanctioned a referendum, a generation ago,😂 because the SNP won an overall majority at Holyrood. 

They didn't achieve that this time.

[Japan Jambo]

1 minute ago, Des Lynam said:

If Scotland is such a cost to the UK then why is there opposition to independence from Westminster? 

 

Great question, it's a topic I often find myself discussing!

 

Beyond the mealy mouthed 'better together' platitudes the best arguments I hear are to do with defence, namely; strategic concern around Faslane, territorial waters and access from the North Sea to the Atlantic. I suspect there are also huge dollops of the rUK having diminished status and what that means for place and sensibilities.

 

[Unknown user]

4 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

But a devolved administration, regardless of the numbers, has no mandate to vote or opine on reserved powers.

DC sanctioned a referendum, a generation ago,😂 because the SNP won an overall majority at Holyrood. 

They didn't achieve that this time.

 

There's an independence supporting majority at Holyrood again so let's get it on

[lost in space]

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/labour-10-questions-independence-snp-25565645

10 question from a good Jambo. Will we get answers?

Anybody on here like to answer them???

[Roxy Hearts]

1 hour ago, Japan Jambo said:

 

alas not, there is the small (well not so small actually) issue of the national debt that needs factored into the equation. Obviously a proud independent Scotland would naturally be happy to bear it's fair share rather than bolting from the restaurant when the bill arrives like a degenerate jakey. 

Take debt and assets that we've contributed to all over the world as part of the illustrious UK! Scotland has a notional debt as it didn't create it, this is done on our behalf as part of the illustrious UK, again! Negotiations will occur all over the place and realpolitik will take place but then again we're hoping on Westminster growing up.

 

[Hmfc1965]

20 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

Many would, it isn't though.

I don't see why it wouldn't be in this situation. 

We have benefited, using the word advisedly, from the spending that lead to the debt.

Edited November 29, 2021 by Hmfc1965

[Japan Jambo]

1 minute ago, Roxy Hearts said:

Take debt and assets that we've contributed to all over the world as part of the illustrious UK! Scotland has a notional debt as it didn't create it, this is done on our behalf as part of the illustrious UK, again! Negotiations will occur all over the place and realpolitik will take place but then again we're hoping on Westminster growing up.

 

 

Yes, some realism - on the extremely narrow point while the debt is indeed in the name of the UK it will undoubtedly be up for negotiation should the split happen. It is no more England's debt than it is Scotland's.  👍

[Unknown user]

1 minute ago, Hmfc1965 said:

I don't see why it wouldn't be in this situation. 

We have benefited, using the word advisedly, from the spending that lead to the debt.

 

I don't see why it would be, it's a completely new legal entity.

 

This isn't a weird or unique situation, it's happened many many times before.

 

As I said to JJ if this offends your sensibilities, feel free to contact Westminster and take on your share. Sure, you have no legal or moral obligation to do it, but the debt was built up in your name so it's only fair your children are burdened right?

[Unknown user]

2 minutes ago, Japan Jambo said:

 

Yes, some realism - on the extremely narrow point while the debt is indeed in the name of the UK it will undoubtedly be up for negotiation should the split happen. It is no more England's debt than it is Scotland's.  👍

Who said it's England's? If England went independent they'd be a new legal entity as well.

[Roxy Hearts]

6 minutes ago, lost in space said:

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/labour-10-questions-independence-snp-25565645

10 question from a good Jambo. Will we get answers?

Anybody on here like to answer them???

That idiot never heard of the word negotiations? The unfortunate thing is we're dealing with an obstinate Westminster and Britnats like him! He's one of the reasons I'll never vote Labour again.

[Japan Jambo]

Just now, Smithee said:

Who said it's England's? If England went independent they'd be a new legal entity as well.

 

so the debt just vanishes into thin air does it? Here is some more homework for you;

 

Ian Murray’s top ten:

1. What would the currency of an independent Scotland be?

2. Would the Scottish Government raise taxes or make public service cuts to make up the current fiscal deficit of 22.4% of GDP?

3. What measures would you take to ensure Scotland remains in the UK single market, and how would this be compatible with joining the European Union?

4. Would an independent Scotland accept the Euro in order to join the European Union?

5. Would there be freedom of movement between Scotland and England? How would work if Scotland is part of the European single market?

6. Will oil form the basis of the economic plan for an independent Scotland as it did in 2014?

7. How would you protect the pensions of people who have paid into the UK wide state pension scheme?

8. Would Scots not living Scotland be able to vote? Would the captain of the Scottish football team get a vote in an independence referendum?

9. Given its taken years to start using devolved welfare powers, how long does the SNP estimate it will take to setup an independent state?

10. What would the eligibility criteria be for citizenship of an independent Scotland?

[Hmfc1965]

3 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

I don't see why it would be, it's a completely new legal entity.

 

This isn't a weird or unique situation, it's happened many many times before.

 

As I said to JJ if this offends your sensibilities, feel free to contact Westminster and take on your share. Sure, you have no legal or moral obligation to do it, but the debt was built up in your name so it's only fair your children are burdened right?

Has it?

What did others do?

The only obvious direct comparison I can think of if the Czech Republic and Slovakia. 

[Japan Jambo]

2 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

That idiot never heard of the word negotiations? The unfortunate thing is we're dealing with an obstinate Westminster and Britnats like him! He's one of the reasons I'll never vote Labour again.

 

feel free to lay out your vision by answering the questions. If you don't know what you want and Boris isn't fussed with the detail it could be a cluster**** of monumental proportions...

 

 

[Unknown user]

3 minutes ago, Japan Jambo said:

 

so the debt just vanishes into thin air does it? Here is some more homework for you;

 

Ian Murray’s top ten:

1. What would the currency of an independent Scotland be?

2. Would the Scottish Government raise taxes or make public service cuts to make up the current fiscal deficit of 22.4% of GDP?

3. What measures would you take to ensure Scotland remains in the UK single market, and how would this be compatible with joining the European Union?

4. Would an independent Scotland accept the Euro in order to join the European Union?

5. Would there be freedom of movement between Scotland and England? How would work if Scotland is part of the European single market?

6. Will oil form the basis of the economic plan for an independent Scotland as it did in 2014?

7. How would you protect the pensions of people who have paid into the UK wide state pension scheme?

8. Would Scots not living Scotland be able to vote? Would the captain of the Scottish football team get a vote in an independence referendum?

9. Given its taken years to start using devolved welfare powers, how long does the SNP estimate it will take to setup an independent state?

10. What would the eligibility criteria be for citizenship of an independent Scotland?

 

If the UK doesn't exist then there's no one liable for it, so the lending party makes a loss 🤷‍♂️

Edited November 29, 2021 by Smithee

[Alex Kintner]

7 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

But a devolved administration, regardless of the numbers, has no mandate to vote or opine on reserved powers.

DC sanctioned a referendum, a generation ago,😂 because the SNP won an overall majority at Holyrood. 

They didn't achieve that this time.

It’s the voters who provide the mandate, not legislation. It was the democratic will of the Scottish electorate to return a pro-Indy majority to Holyrood. It’s up to BJ and co if they want to respect that democratic will but as I said earlier, the more he resists it then the more No’s turn to Maybe’s and the more Maybe’s turn to Yes’s.

[lost in space]

2 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

That idiot never heard of the word negotiations? The unfortunate thing is we're dealing with an obstinate Westminster and Britnats like him! He's one of the reasons I'll never vote Labour again.

Ah, he's an idiot is he??? Aye, very good - he did his bit to save us but he's an idiot according to you.

Why don't YOU have a go at answering the questions???

[Unknown user]

2 minutes ago, Hmfc1965 said:

Has it?

What did others do?

The only obvious direct comparison I can think of if the Czech Republic and Slovakia. 

No offence but I'm not going to spoonfeed. How much debt did Lithuania take from the USSR? How much did RoI take from the UK? 

[Hmfc1965]

1 minute ago, Smithee said:

No offence but I'm not going to spoonfeed. How much debt did Lithuania take from the USSR? How much did RoI take from the UK? 

I don't see either as the same situation,  and in the ROI case you've talking about vastly different times. 

[Unknown user]

1 minute ago, Hmfc1965 said:

I don't see either as the same situation,  and in the ROI case you've talking about vastly different times. 

 

It doesn't really matter how you see it, the People's Republic of Scotland would be an entirely different legal entity from the one obliged to pay the debt.

That's how it works, sometimes even the bank makes a loss. It's all very sad of course.

[Alex Kintner]

11 minutes ago, Japan Jambo said:

 

so the debt just vanishes into thin air does it? Here is some more homework for you;

 

Ian Murray’s top ten:

1. What would the currency of an independent Scotland be?

2. Would the Scottish Government raise taxes or make public service cuts to make up the current fiscal deficit of 22.4% of GDP?

3. What measures would you take to ensure Scotland remains in the UK single market, and how would this be compatible with joining the European Union?

4. Would an independent Scotland accept the Euro in order to join the European Union?

5. Would there be freedom of movement between Scotland and England? How would work if Scotland is part of the European single market?

6. Will oil form the basis of the economic plan for an independent Scotland as it did in 2014?

7. How would you protect the pensions of people who have paid into the UK wide state pension scheme?

8. Would Scots not living Scotland be able to vote? Would the captain of the Scottish football team get a vote in an independence referendum?

9. Given its taken years to start using devolved welfare powers, how long does the SNP estimate it will take to setup an independent state?

10. What would the eligibility criteria be for citizenship of an independent Scotland?

All valid questions and I’d like them all to be answered before I cast my vote in a second referendum. 
 

Got to be careful not put the cart before the horse though and two separate issues being conflated here:

 

1. Should there be a second Indy referendum?

 

2. Should Scotland be an independent country?

 

The answer to number 1 has already been answered democratically by the Scottish electorate. The more people who deny that, the more likely the answer to number 2 will be yes.
 

[Japan Jambo]

9 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

If the UK doesn't exist then there's no one liable for it, so the lending party makes a loss 🤷‍♂️

 

To be clear your strategy is we all do a runner?!  okay, think you'll find that results in being barred from every hostelry in town but fair enough.

 

Are you going to take a stab at the questions?

[JudyJudyJudy]

2 hours ago, Alex Kintner said:

Being governed by the government we vote for is the key thing for me. I don’t really care if it’s an SNP, Labour, Tory or even Lib Dem govt but as long as they have the full set of powers necessary to run the country in the best interests of Scotland then I’ll be happy 👍🏻

Yes I agree however I don’t like the in between part . The years of austerity which may follow ! 

2 hours ago, Alex Kintner said:

There was a hugely detailed white paper before the last referendum. There'll be another one before the next referendum. The economic plans were in there. The problem was that a lot of people thought they were unrealistic.

It made a great door stopper lol 

2 hours ago, manaliveits105 said:

Which turned out to be a pile of shite 

Lol 

2 hours ago, Roxy Hearts said:

Very good film. Brilliantly played by Maggie Smith.

She’s a national treasure so she is ! Maggie not Nicola  

56 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

Sorry mate, I assumed you knew what a successor state was.

 

I'm talking about where a small country (the successor) breaks away from a larger entity (the continuator) - EXACTLY the situation if Scotland left the UK.

 

In the many, many changes of statehood in history, far too many to list, how many successor states have been burdened by debt the larger entity built up?

 

I know the answer.

Once, a country in Africa god knows how long ago took a few billion of debt.

 

There is no legal or moral obligation to take on UK debt.

 

And anyway, why would you want our children and grandchildren to be burdened with enormous debt against any expectation of international law? 

Not a A very good start to being a sovereign nation by bumping their bills is it ? It wouldn’t do them any favours on the international economic scene 

44 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

Scotland has no debt, there is no legal or moral obligation to take any with us, never has been.

 

If you want to contact Westminster and take your share on to satisfy your sense of fairness, by all means contact them.

See above 

12 minutes ago, Japan Jambo said:

 

so the debt just vanishes into thin air does it? Here is some more homework for you;

 

Ian Murray’s top ten:

1. What would the currency of an independent Scotland be?

2. Would the Scottish Government raise taxes or make public service cuts to make up the current fiscal deficit of 22.4% of GDP?

3. What measures would you take to ensure Scotland remains in the UK single market, and how would this be compatible with joining the European Union?

4. Would an independent Scotland accept the Euro in order to join the European Union?

5. Would there be freedom of movement between Scotland and England? How would work if Scotland is part of the European single market?

6. Will oil form the basis of the economic plan for an independent Scotland as it did in 2014?

7. How would you protect the pensions of people who have paid into the UK wide state pension scheme?

8. Would Scots not living Scotland be able to vote? Would the captain of the Scottish football team get a vote in an independence referendum?

9. Given its taken years to start using devolved welfare powers, how long does the SNP estimate it will take to setup an independent state?

10. What would the eligibility criteria be for citizenship of an independent Scotland?

Answer to question 6 is now no 

8 minutes ago, Alex Kintner said:

It’s the voters who provide the mandate, not legislation. It was the democratic will of the Scottish electorate to return a pro-Indy majority to Holyrood. It’s up to BJ and co if they want to respect that democratic will but as I said earlier, the more he resists it then the more No’s turn to Maybe’s and the more Maybe’s turn to Yes’s.

They did this in 2014 . 

[Japan Jambo]

1 minute ago, Alex Kintner said:

All valid questions and I’d like them all to be answered before I cast my vote in a second referendum. 
 

Got to be careful not put the cart before the horse though and two separate issues being conflated here:

 

1. Should there be a second Indy referendum?

 

2. Should Scotland be an independent country?

 

The answer to number 1 has already been answered democratically by the Scottish electorate. The more people who deny that, the more likely the answer to number 2 will be yes.
 

 

Any thoughts as to what those ten answers might be Alex?

[Unknown user]

2 minutes ago, Japan Jambo said:

 

To be clear your strategy is we all do a runner?!  okay, think you'll find that results in being barred from every hostelry in town but fair enough.

 

Are you going to take a stab at the questions?

 

It's not a strategy, it's international law 🤷‍♂️

[JudyJudyJudy]

2 minutes ago, Alex Kintner said:

All valid questions and I’d like them all to be answered before I cast my vote in a second referendum. 
 

Got to be careful not put the cart before the horse though and two separate issues being conflated here:

 

1. Should there be a second Indy referendum?

 

2. Should Scotland be an independent country?

 

The answer to number 1 has already been answered democratically by the Scottish electorate. The more people who deny that, the more likely the answer to number 2 will be yes.
 

Agreed . There should be one . Get it out of the way again and let’s get in with the real issues facing Scotland 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 

[lost in space]

6 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

It doesn't really matter how you see it, the People's Republic of Scotland would be an entirely different legal entity from the one obliged to pay the debt.

That's how it works, sometimes even the bank makes a loss. It's all very sad of course.

So will Scotland be "Rangers in disguise"? Will we be called "The Scotland"??

[Hmfc1965]

8 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

It doesn't really matter how you see it, the People's Republic of Scotland would be an entirely different legal entity from the one obliged to pay the debt.

That's how it works, sometimes even the bank makes a loss. It's all very sad of course.

So you see Scotland as a wee oppressed nation taken over by the dastardly English?

[Alex Kintner]

5 minutes ago, JamesM48 said:

They did this in 2014 .

Did what in 2014?

[Alex Kintner]

5 minutes ago, Japan Jambo said:

 

Any thoughts as to what those ten answers might be Alex?

To be honest, no. I’d expect to be provided with all that information prior to the next referendum by the Yes campaign. I’ll balance that info up with my desire to be a country whose parliament has full autonomy and decide how I’ll vote 👍🏻

[Unknown user]

3 minutes ago, lost in space said:

So will Scotland be "Rangers in disguise"? Will we be called "The Scotland"??

 

Why would we need to change? Scotland has no debt.

But I'd be up for Great Scotland, or even the United Kingdom of Fife, etc

 

 

3 minutes ago, Hmfc1965 said:

So you see Scotland as a wee oppressed nation taken over by the dastardly English?

 

[Alex Kintner]

7 minutes ago, JamesM48 said:

Agreed . There should be one . Get it out of the way again and let’s get in with the real issues facing Scotland 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 

If I was the Tories I’d be wanting it asap. The longer it is delayed the better for those who favour Independence.

[Hmfc1965]

1 minute ago, Smithee said:

 

Why would we need to change? Scotland has no debt.

But I'd be up for Great Scotland, or even the United Kingdom of Fife, etc

 

 

 

Scotland has no debt . As part of the United Kingdom we've built up a bit.

[Japan Jambo]

1 minute ago, Alex Kintner said:

To be honest, no. I’d expect to be provided with all that information prior to the next referendum by the Yes campaign. I’ll balance that info up with my desire to be a country whose parliament has full autonomy and decide how I’ll vote 👍🏻

 

fair enough. looking that Czech/Slovak 'velvet divorce' I think both being part of the EU really helped take so much of the really difficult issues off the table. It's really not clear to me how the circle gets squared here and it's way past time some critical thinking was done. The parallels with Brexit where the heart ruled the head are way to close imo.