The rise and fall of The SNP.

[jack D and coke]

Just now, Pans Jambo said:

A previous Yes voter

You reckon he’s telling porkies???

[Don Dan]

3 minutes ago, sadj said:

Again not a single answer to what you were asked. 
 

Things have progressively become more indy less union over the last forty years. It is now at a point that the Union side have to make the arguments of persuasion or they will get left behind. Make that argument for us

The argument was made in 2014 you lost. 
You have questions to answer from then which have still not been answered. 
you know the usual ones like currency and border control etc. 
you convince me why I should want independence. Note the only way I would vote independence is if there was a cast iron guarantee of getting into the EU. 

[NANOJAMBO]

14 minutes ago, JackLadd said:

 

On the current deficit between tax revenue and spending. Start up costs, no central bank, no means of raising capital and likely high interest rates required to issue bonds on capital markets. Likely movement of people and liquid assets out of Scotland on day one. Don't forget the snp are not selling an iScotland, they are selling Scotland as a dominion of Brussels on par with the former Baltic states of the Soviet Union. The only difference is the EU would expect Scotland to pay for the privilege of surrendering large chunks of sovereignty and influence for access to markets that are already accessible. We would also have to take on and service our share of UK national debt and have and English customs border. All considered it would be a catastrophe.

These are not all barriers to indy , they're not all obstacles which cannot be overcome - some of them are inevitable consequences which would arise, even the USA had some of these issues in 1776 .

The SNP can "sell" what they like - this is another smokescreen from "no" voters : there's NO reason to assume the SNP would be the party of govt so why do you assume the oppopsite? The SNP can say what it likes about the EU - it would be down to a referendum to decide, not the SNP 

: you know that. 

 

The comparison with Russia & the Baltic states is ridiculous.

 

Pay off the UKs debts ? Based on what : the UK spent it they'll have to pay it back. There is no legal obligation on Scotland here.

[sadj]

2 minutes ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

I don't believe SG have made convincing argument to break up what we have. 

If we have another referendum, I would like SNP to detail exactly how my children will be better off than at present. 

Vague promises are not enough. I want to know if we will be trying to rejoin EU and if we do, what will the entry costs be. I don't want to hear that behind the scenes assurances have been given for this and that, I want legal cast iron guarantees. 

If we get all of that and we, Scotland, vote for independence, then fair enough, I will accept decision and carry on with life as nothing much will change quickly, give or take a few different flags flying. 

I'm Scottish in the current Union and I'll still be Scottish afterwards. 

 

See I understand where you personally are coming from , not sure its all possible but its one of the big issues , independence is an unknown the UK is better the devil you know. To move past that you need to have to provide certain info on direction and independence as a statement is not that the argument of some that nuts and bolts are needed is a sensible one. Going back to Brexit though , how much info of post EU was there. A lot of it was played on fears of immigrants and the like. 
 

fair post though 👍🏻

[NANOJAMBO]

2 minutes ago, Boy Daniel said:

The argument was made in 2014 you lost. 
You have questions to answer from then which have still not been answered. 
you know the usual ones like currency and border control etc. 
you convince me why I should want independence. Note the only way I would vote independence is if there was a cast iron guarantee of getting into the EU. 

You know very well (and more importantly, so does Westminster) that Scotland was told - wanna stay in the EU ? Better stay in the union.  They know , you know , that's a game changer. 

[Don Dan]

The poll of 1,031 adults conducted by telephone between February 15 and 21, also found that, with don’t knows excluded, 52 per cent would vote Yes in a second independence referendum, a fall of four percentage points since the last Ipsos MORI survey in November, with 48 per cent voting No. With don’t knows included, the figures as 48 per cent for Yes and 44 per cent for no with seven per cent undecided.

This follows a Scotsman poll by Savanta ComRes earlier this month which found support for independence had dropped below 50 per cent when don’t knows were included for the first time since December, with 47 per cent of Scots intending to vote Yes, 42 per cent voting No, and 10 per cent undecided. When the don’t knows were excluded, the support for independence was 53 per cent, with No backed by 47 per cent of Scots.

[Don Dan]

5 minutes ago, NANOJAMBO said:

You know very well (and more importantly, so does Westminster) that Scotland was told - wanna stay in the EU ? Better stay in the union.  They know , you know , that's a game changer. 

Indeed that was the case. However after witnessing the the 4 year and counting Brexit shambles do you honestly think that the majority of Scots would want to go through the trauma if the exit from the U.K. 

I think not. The silent majority will still be silent as they vote No again. 

Edited February 25, 2021 by Boy Daniel

[NANOJAMBO]

3 minutes ago, Boy Daniel said:

The poll of 1,031 adults conducted by telephone between February 15 and 21, also found that, with don’t knows excluded, 52 per cent would vote Yes in a second independence referendum, a fall of four percentage points since the last Ipsos MORI survey in November, with 48 per cent voting No. With don’t knows included, the figures as 48 per cent for Yes and 44 per cent for no with seven per cent undecided.

This follows a Scotsman poll by Savanta ComRes earlier this month which found support for indepWhat's your point - are we supposed to stop talking about it bceecause of  telephone poll ?endence had dropped below 50 per cent when don’t knows were included for the first time since December, with 47 per cent of Scots intending to vote Yes, 42 per cent voting No, and 10 per cent undecided. When the don’t knows were excluded, the support for independence was 53 per cent, with No backed by 47 per cent of Scots.

 

[NANOJAMBO]

Just now, Boy Daniel said:

Indeed that was the case. However after witnessing the the 4 year and counting Brexit shambles do you honestly think that the majority of Scots would want to go through the trauma if the exit from the U.K. 

I think not. The silent majority will still be silent as the vote No again. 

I don't presume to speak for others : that's what the referendum will do. 

[sadj]

2 minutes ago, Boy Daniel said:

The argument was made in 2014 you lost. 
You have questions to answer from then which have still not been answered. 
you know the usual ones like currency and border control etc. 
you convince me why I should want independence. Note the only way I would vote independence is if there was a cast iron guarantee of getting into the EU. 

The fact you are saying currency swayed you is a red flag. Do you realise that we arent going to lose our currency and have nothing by being independent. We could continue with sterling , we could move to the Euro , we could have our own currency. Its a very trivial matter. A lot of the world trades in US Dollars , it has no impact what you can the coin in your pocket. The only part that matters is where it would be placed by financial value and that could be as lower than sterling (if say it was the Scottish Pound) and within 24hours be worth more. 
 

Border Control again a small thing. How do the US and Canada work , people travel over borders every day without issue. Why would that be any different. If anything the only thing more difficult about that is that we have Brexit now so rejoining the EU would probably require a working agreement between us upon rejoining the EU.

[Don Dan]

Just now, NANOJAMBO said:

I don't presume to speak for others : that's what the referendum will do. 

Exactly 

[sadj]

2 minutes ago, Boy Daniel said:

Exactly 

Meant to say whilst I dont agree at least you gave reasons if not the info that led you to get there

[Governor Tarkin]

22 minutes ago, NANOJAMBO said:

It isn't subjective : you're either pro or anti indy - and I'd suggest anyone (as is often alluded to on here) putting a measure of "worth" on indy is not in favour. Fair enough. 

You say the debate is too narrow but it's a really simply question : do you want independence and do you want to bear whatever cost arises from that (I say "cost" not only in reference to finance). 

 

 

This is a contradictory position which lacks internal logic.

 

Why would you bear the 'cost' of independence if independence itself has no value?

It clearly does have a value to you - even if that value is that independence is an end in itself - which is basically what you are saying.

 

I don't think that independence purely as an end in itself or for its own sake is a compelling argument.

Many do.

It's subjective.

 

Edited February 25, 2021 by Governor Tarkin

[Don Dan]

Just now, sadj said:

The fact you are saying currency swayed you is a red flag. Do you realise that we arent going to lose our currency and have nothing by being independent. We could continue with sterling , we could move to the Euro , we could have our own currency. Its a very trivial matter. A lot of the world trades in US Dollars , it has no impact what you can the coin in your pocket. The only part that matters is where it would be placed by financial value and that could be as lower than sterling (if say it was the Scottish Pound) and within 24hours be worth more. 
 

Border Control again a small thing. How do the US and Canada work , people travel over borders every day without issue. Why would that be any different. If anything the only thing more difficult about that is that we have Brexit now so rejoining the EU would probably require a working agreement between us upon rejoining the EU.

It’s anything but trivial. In fact it’s a main point when people are considering the benefits or otherwise of independence. 
Borders are a problem as is import and export. These issues still have been resolved. The other big issue which is rumbling away in the back ground is passporting between the EU and the U.K. 

That still hasn’t been resolved. These issue IMO will be greatly magnified if we have independence. 

[Don Dan]

9 minutes ago, sadj said:

Meant to say whilst I dont agree at least you gave reasons if not the info that led you to get there

 
The information has already been discussed at length prior to the 2014 referendum. What we (voting Scots)  are waiting on is the White Paper laying out in clear terms from Sturgeon and the independence cohort what needs to be done, what it will cost, what it will look like and how this will work to the benefit of the average punter. The last White Paper failed to do that and if my memory serves me right Sturgeon was the author of it. She needs to do better this time if she’s got time whilst dealing with Covid and firefighting the dramas that are playing out just now within the party. 

Edited February 25, 2021 by Boy Daniel

[Pans Jambo]

2 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

You reckon he’s telling porkies???

You can never fully jump from one camp to another without a little bit of the one you left behind still being in there somewhere. The man is a rabid unionist with a deep hatred or disdain of anything remotely Scottish unless Westmister are controlling it! NO WAY he voted Yes for Scottish Independence. 

[jack D and coke]

7 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

You can never fully jump from one camp to another without a little bit of the one you left behind still being in there somewhere. The man is a rabid unionist with a deep hatred or disdain of anything remotely Scottish unless Westmister are controlling it! NO WAY he voted Yes for Scottish Independence. 

Yeah I’d be more than a tad surprised myself  

[coconut doug]

1 hour ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

I don't believe SG have made convincing argument to break up what we have. 

If we have another referendum, I would like SNP to detail exactly how my children will be better off than at present. 

Vague promises are not enough. I want to know if we will be trying to rejoin EU and if we do, what will the entry costs be. I don't want to hear that behind the scenes assurances have been given for this and that, I want legal cast iron guarantees. 

If we get all of that and we, Scotland, vote for independence, then fair enough, I will accept decision and carry on with life as nothing much will change quickly, give or take a few different flags flying. 

I'm Scottish in the current Union and I'll still be Scottish afterwards. 

 

SG arguments are not convincing imo. They were better before but Indy is off the agenda now so there's no point in arguing in favour of something you have no intention of implementing. Public opinion being what it is we should have been independent by now or very close to it anyway. The current debacle shows that Indy will destroy the SNP and they are not going to destroy themselves as they earn a good living from the current system.

 

    I would like to know though how my children's interests are going to be protected if they remain in Scotland. Scotland's wishes are routinely disregarded whilst at the same time we have a massive mostly unelected and non scottish legislature.

 I would like to know and see some evidence of this levelling up they keep talking about. i would like to see some reversal of the deepening inequality that has made the UK almost the worst in the world. I would like guarantees that we are not going to enter any more foreign wars on sexed up pretexts that leave a million dead and tens of millions homeless. I want to know that we will not be supporting the head choppers of Saudi Arabia to wage war on one of the world's poorest countries and that we will not be giving money, training, weapons and  supporting terrorist groups like Isis and Al Nusra. I want to know that my children will not be fighting or involved in these atrocities just so they can maintain the despotic rulers of the Gulf states or preserve the corporate interests of multinational companies (none of which are British). I want to live i a country where our military is used to protect our own people and not used to support USA/Israeli interests in some pathetic attempt to be relevant.

 

        Since the prospect of any of these things actually happening is vanishingly small i would contend that your children's best interests will be best served in an independent Scotland and even if it meant a reduction in disposable income (which i very much doubt it would) it would still be a price well worth paying.

[Governor Tarkin]

1 hour ago, coconut doug said:

    I would like to know though how my children's interests are going to be protected if they remain in Scotland. Scotland's wishes are routinely disregarded whilst at the same time we have a massive mostly unelected and non scottish legislature.

 I would like to know and see some evidence of this levelling up they keep talking about. i would like to see some reversal of the deepening inequality that has made the UK almost the worst in the world. I would like guarantees that we are not going to enter any more foreign wars on sexed up pretexts that leave a million dead and tens of millions homeless. I want to know that we will not be supporting the head choppers of Saudi Arabia to wage war on one of the world's poorest countries and that we will not be giving money, training, weapons and  supporting terrorist groups like Isis and Al Nusra. I want to know that my children will not be fighting or involved in these atrocities just so they can maintain the despotic rulers of the Gulf states or preserve the corporate interests of multinational companies (none of which are British). I want to live i a country where our military is used to protect our own people and not used to support USA/Israeli interests in some pathetic attempt to be relevant.

 

        Since the prospect of any of these things actually happening is vanishingly small i would contend that your children's best interests will be best served in an independent Scotland and even if it meant a reduction in disposable income (which i very much doubt it would) it would still be a price well worth paying.

 

@NANOJAMBO, this is what a compelling argument looks like. ^^^^

 

👍

[Guest]

https://yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com/2021/02/25/jim-sillars-lodges-formal-complaint-against-the-first-minister/amp/?__twitter_impression=true 

[Weakened Offender]

3 hours ago, Boy Daniel said:

Indeed that was the case. However after witnessing the the 4 year and counting Brexit shambles do you honestly think that the majority of Scots would want to go through the trauma if the exit from the U.K. 

I think not. The silent majority will still be silent as they vote No again. 

 

How do you know what the silent majority are going to do? That's a serious question by the way. 😊

[Brighton Jambo]

28 minutes ago, Candy said:

https://yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com/2021/02/25/jim-sillars-lodges-formal-complaint-against-the-first-minister/amp/?__twitter_impression=true 

They are all turning on each other now.  They have never been closer to independence and they are going to torpedo it themselves.  It’s unbelievable what’s happening.  

[Weakened Offender]

5 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said:

They are all turning on each other now.  They have never been closer to independence and they are going to torpedo it themselves.  It’s unbelievable what’s happening.  

 

Jim Sillars turned on the party years ago. 

[Don Dan]

Here’s the Jim Sillars Scotsman report.

 

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/former-snp-deputy-accuses-nicola-sturgeon-of-breaching-ministerial-code-over-salmond-attack-at-covid-briefing-3147396

[Don Dan]

58 minutes ago, Weakened Offender said:

 

How do you know what the silent majority are going to do? That's a serious question by the way. 😊

 I knew last time and in speaking with the same people and even more people  I am able to make my option based on what is being said.  
the Independence campaigners lead by cheer leaders Salmond and Sturgeon thought they had the Yes result it in the bag, well we now know they didn’t. It was the silent majority who went to the polls and voted No. The same or similar scenario is playing out now. Of course they need permission to hold a referendum from Westminster with looks unlikely. They could of course plow on regardless but they’d be foolish if they did especially with this current shit show playing out. 
Lots of people I spoke prior to the 2014 vote kept quiet principly because the hostile and condescending nature of the Yes voters. 
There is one particular poster on here that loves to ridicule anyone who says anything against independence. I’m actually surprised he’s not been on here today. Time yet I suppose. 

Edited February 25, 2021 by Boy Daniel

[Weakened Offender]

2 minutes ago, Boy Daniel said:

 I knew last time and in speaking with the same people and even more people  I am able to make my option based on what being said.  
the Independence campaigners lead by cheer leaders Salmond and Sturgeon thought they had the Yes result it in the bag, well we now know they didn’t. It was the silent majority who went to the polls and voted No. The same or similar scenario is playing out now. Of course they need permission to hold a referendum from Westminster with looks unlikely. They could of course plow on regardless but they’d be foolish if they did especially with this current shit show playing out. 
Lots of people I spoke prior to the 2014 vote kept quiet principly because the hostile and condescending nature of the Yes voters. 
There one particular poster on here that loves to ridicule anyone who says anything against independence. I’m actually surprised he’s not been on here today. Time yet I suppose. 

 

Thanks for confirming you don't know. 👍

[Don Dan]

4 minutes ago, Weakened Offender said:

 

Thanks for confirming you don't know. 👍

Just like you know you are going to win. It’s based on what we think will happen which is based on how we assess things. 
so from my point of view I know. 
PS I was right the last time. I may well be right this time. You were wrong last time I suspect.
 

Edited February 25, 2021 by Boy Daniel
PS I was right last time.

[Weakened Offender]

11 minutes ago, Boy Daniel said:

Just like you know you are going to win. It’s based on what we think will happen which is based on how we assess things. 
so from my point of view I know. 
PS I was right the last time. I may well be right this time. You were wrong last time I suspect.
 

 

I didn't know YES would win last time and I don't know if YES will win next time. 

 

But today's poll showing YES being in the lead was the 22nd poll in a row to show that. 

 

You crack on speaking for the silent majority though. 😊

[Don Dan]

Just now, Weakened Offender said:

 

I didn't know YES would win last time and I don't know if YES will win next time. 

 

But today's poll showing YES being in the lead was the 22nd poll in a row to show that. 

 

You crack on speaking for the silent majority though. 😊

Las two polls show a decrease in the lead. However as Salmond and Sturgeon found out last time, don’t trust the polls. 

 My advice to the Yes campaign is put up a credible argument backed up by a White Paper with substance. If I see a credible argument other than trying to satisfy a wishful pipe dream then I would be persuaded to vote yes. At the moment the only thing that would make me vote Yes is definitely getting back into the EU. 

 

[Don Dan]

8 minutes ago, Weakened Offender said:

You crack on speaking for the silent majority though.

Their time will come if and when there is another referendum. 

[jack D and coke]

59 minutes ago, Boy Daniel said:

 I knew last time and in speaking with the same people and even more people  I am able to make my option based on what is being said.  
the Independence campaigners lead by cheer leaders Salmond and Sturgeon thought they had the Yes result it in the bag, well we now know they didn’t. It was the silent majority who went to the polls and voted No. The same or similar scenario is playing out now. Of course they need permission to hold a referendum from Westminster with looks unlikely. They could of course plow on regardless but they’d be foolish if they did especially with this current shit show playing out. 
Lots of people I spoke prior to the 2014 vote kept quiet principly because the hostile and condescending nature of the Yes voters. 
There is one particular poster on here that loves to ridicule anyone who says anything against independence. I’m actually surprised he’s not been on here today. Time yet I suppose. 

I didn’t know anyone who thought Yes would win last time. I always suspected No would win personally. 
Im still of the opinion No would likely win. We’d bottle it again I reckon and that really will be that. 

[jack D and coke]

33 minutes ago, Boy Daniel said:

Las two polls show a decrease in the lead. However as Salmond and Sturgeon found out last time, don’t trust the polls. 

 My advice to the Yes campaign is put up a credible argument backed up by a White Paper with substance. If I see a credible argument other than trying to satisfy a wishful pipe dream then I would be persuaded to vote yes. At the moment the only thing that would make me vote Yes is definitely getting back into the EU. 

 

One single poll showed Yes in the lead last time at very close to the actual vote itself. 
Considering it was around the 20-25% mark in the beginning it was a fair shift in opinion. I didn’t see any claims of victory tbh. It was always the outside shout. 

[Mikey1874]

2 hours ago, Candy said:

https://yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com/2021/02/25/jim-sillars-lodges-formal-complaint-against-the-first-minister/amp/?__twitter_impression=true 

 

I think this is just the start.

[Weakened Offender]

21 minutes ago, BarneyBattles said:

Oh and for those who are gleefully anticipating the next week or so of the Salmond inquiry, be careful what you wish for. The inevitable public inquiry into Westminster’s bungling of the pandemic will blow Salmond-gate out of the water. 

 

You'd like to think so but I can't see it. The press in the UK will give them an easy ride as will the leader of the so-called opposition. 

 

Won't happen. 

[Governor Tarkin]

34 minutes ago, BarneyBattles said:

 

Oh and for those who are gleefully anticipating the next week or so of the Salmond inquiry, be careful what you wish for. The inevitable public inquiry into Westminster’s bungling of the pandemic will blow Salmond-gate out of the water. 
 

 

I'm gleefully anticipating the Salmond inquiry and the Westminster shitehousery inquiry.

I suspect most folk are.

[jamborich]

Canny be arsed scrolling trying to find a thread about her probably one out there, this woman seriously does my box in how anybody can support her is beyond comprehension, now looking forward to the disciples having their say

[graygo]

Nope, can't see any mention of her anywhere on here.

[NANOJAMBO]

19 minutes ago, jamborich said:

Canny be arsed scrolling trying to find a thread about her probably one out there, this woman seriously does my box in how anybody can support her is beyond comprehension, now looking forward to the disciples having their say

Not seeing anything from her critics either - of which there are many on here.

Two missed opportunities. 

[jamborich]

9 minutes ago, graygo said:

Nope, can't see any mention of her anywhere on here.

Good let's debate 

[Tazio]

I’ll not go down the road of discussing policies and so on as that’s been done to death on here. But oddly I was talking to someone about this earlier in. I don’t think it’s healthy when one party has an absolute dominance in a county and that one party is very much dominated by one person. Or in this case a married couple. 

[NANOJAMBO]

Is anyone willing post up what is happening - I genuinely don't know the current/historical events and I've stayed away from the last thread on the matter as it went down a rather predictable route. 

 

PS I don't live in Scotland so no news coverage down here. 

[jamborich]

3 minutes ago, Tazio said:

I’ll not go down the road of discussing policies and so on as that’s been done to death on here. But oddly I was talking to someone about this earlier in. I don’t think it’s healthy when one party has an absolute dominance in a county and that one party is very much dominated by one person. Or in this case a married couple. 

You obviously meant country but get your point Sturgeon is a scourge on this country vile woman 

[Tazio]

9 minutes ago, jamborich said:

You obviously meant country but get your point Sturgeon is a scourge on this country vile woman 

I wouldn’t go that far. But even if someone is a supporter of the SNP they must be seeing certain traits becoming very apparent. Anybody who is deified by their supporters and continually praised will start to develop a sense of infallibility and a certain arrogance. There have been issues within the party recently where it is made very clear that the view is back her ideas or get out of Dodge. However the one thing that has always been one of the SNP’s main strengths is an impressive PR campaign against any rivals, by conventional means or the mentality of their supporters on Twitter and the like. The recent business with Joanna Cherry is a massive test as is the Salmond situation and certain rifts are becoming more visible in the grassroots supporters. 

[graygo]

20 minutes ago, Tazio said:

I’ll not go down the road of discussing policies and so on as that’s been done to death on here. But oddly I was talking to someone about this earlier in. I don’t think it’s healthy when one party has an absolute dominance in a county and that one party is very much dominated by one person. Or in this case a married couple. 

 

Is that "absolute dominance" not actually a minority government unlike the Tory party in Westminster which is a majority government?

 

I think your guns need retrained.

[jamtartan74]

Would.

[hughesie27]

Trooper. Should be given a Damehood  or whatever its called.

[jamborich]

2 hours ago, hughesie27 said:

Trooper. Should be given a Damehood  or whatever its called.

Lol no sure if serious but sure you will explain 

[manaliveits105]

A wee comedian from Ayr famous for her white stilettos, eye raises and catchphrase

”look I’m not going to stand here and tell you the truth”

[Roxy Hearts]

Doesn't bother me. 

[Malinga the Swinga]

13 hours ago, Boy Daniel said:

At the moment the only thing that would make me vote Yes is definitely getting back into the EU. 

 

At any price or dependent on deal offered? 

I wanted to remain in EU, but we're out now and not sure I can be bothered with hassle of negotiating back in. The vaccination debacle in EU has further put me off, with France and Germany acting particularly badly.