The rise and fall of The SNP.

[AlimOzturk]

7 minutes ago, JackLadd said:

 

It's not a case of couldn't but shouldnt, unless self inflicted poverty and chaos are desirable outcomes. It would also tear Scotland apart.

 

FACTS AND FIGURES 

[sadj]

5 minutes ago, JackLadd said:

 

It's not a case of couldn't but shouldnt, unless self inflicted poverty and chaos are desirable outcomes. It would also tear Scotland apart.

so still no facts just your opinion.

 

You are back to we can’t afford to be independent and should be a parasite to the UK. Therefore back to my point about how you are saying people up here shouldnt be looked after by a nanny state but the country should by a nanny WM.

 

Can you provide the facts about how we would be putting ourselves into self inflicted poverty , how it would be chaos and how it would tear Scotland apart?

 

Thanks in advance all Indy supporting people on this thread waiting to debate these facts with you.

[manaliveits105]

50 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

Man, Scottish cringe is a damn strange thing. I don't think I'll ever “get” it.

Your giving it a good go though 

[Don Dan]

1 hour ago, luckydug said:

He admitted himself that he had indulged in behaviour that could be viewed as inappropriate. 

He behaves himself and none of this happens. 

 

indeed you are correct. 
However what has cause the rift between Salmond and Sturgeon. 
once best buddies and the dynamic duo of the independence push to being at each other’s throats. The cause may well be in the media or online somewhere but I’ve not seen anything other than this current spat that could be the cause.

[sadj]

3 minutes ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

It would be a painful divorce, both externally and internally.

Whether it would ultimately be 'worth it' is entirely subjective.

I don’t think it would be that painful , its not like it would happen 2/3hours after a vote of Yes. It would be carefully done over Id imagine at least 5 to 10 years. That would allow for proper restructuring and debates and decisions on borders to be made. England as it would stand would have rights far further north in the seas than they should , things like that would need to be worked out. Not as was made out last time if we vote Yes you will be in poverty in the morning as all your money will be gone as you will have no currency. 

[Weakened Offender]

11 minutes ago, JackLadd said:

 

It's not a case of couldn't but shouldnt, unless self inflicted poverty and chaos are desirable outcomes. It would also tear Scotland apart.

 

Deary me. 

[luckydug]

8 minutes ago, JackLadd said:

 

It's not a case of couldn't but shouldnt, unless self inflicted poverty and chaos are desirable outcomes. It would also tear Scotland apart.

Why do you think poverty and chaos would result in Scotland when all the other Independent small countries do fine ? 

Why would Independence tear Scotland apart if it was the democratic will of the people ? 

[sadj]

2 minutes ago, BarneyBattles said:

 

As Gorgeous George once said, I admire your indefatigability. I've given up trying to communicate with most of the pro-union posters on here as they make a lot of noise (and post a lot of smilies) without actually saying anything.  

Indeed , one day one will respond with a sensible argument and debate 😏

[NANOJAMBO]

14 minutes ago, JackLadd said:

 

It's not a case of couldn't but shouldnt, unless self inflicted poverty and chaos are desirable outcomes. It would also tear Scotland apart.

Why would these be the outcomes ?

 Based on what evidence ?

I've noticed quite a few on here take this tack but there's never any evidence put forward.

Are you really saying that an established western democracy like Scotland with a relatively large economy cannot succeed ?  If so, why not ? 

[ArcticJambo]

2 minutes ago, JackLadd said:

 

It's not a case of couldn't but shouldnt, unless self inflicted poverty and chaos are desirable outcomes. It would also tear Scotland apart.

Along what lines?  I'm genuinely interested, btw.

 

Political? Aren't we, as a country, pretty much socially democratic, fiscally conservative.

 

Religious? While more and more Scots seem to be 'Like bothered with that divisive pish', there perhaps is some merit in how this might play out in an independent Scotland. From afar, it certainly looks still to be somewhat relevant in the west.

 

Economic? I genuinely don't know where the engine lies, or whether there is a number of inter-connected ones.  How might investment in certain sectors, perhaps based on geog/pop lead to a great cohesiveness, or a fraction of sorts.

 

[Justin Z]

5 minutes ago, NANOJAMBO said:

Why would these be the outcomes ?

 Based on what evidence ?

I've noticed quite a few on here take this tack but there's never any evidence put forward.

 

Whilst berating and insulting folk trying in earnest to have an evidence-based, sensible conversation about the issue. It's just all so typical.

[Weakened Offender]

11 minutes ago, sadj said:

Indeed , one day one will respond with a sensible argument and debate 😏

 

I wouldn't mind hearing or reading a sensible argument for remaining in this so-called union. 

[manaliveits105]

Only bullying I see on here is by the separatists - they seem to be angry people 

[NANOJAMBO]

1 minute ago, Justin Z said:

 

Whilst berating and insulting folk trying in earnest to have an evidence-based, sensible conversation about the issue. It's just all so typical.

Indeed. BB has taken the hump and refuses to discuss , Zlatanable was verging on paranoia last time I asked him about his belief that his civil rights would be lost in the event of indy and he refused to discuss it further also. 

[NANOJAMBO]

1 minute ago, Weakened Offender said:

 

I wouldn't mind hearing or reading a sensible argument for remaining in this so-called union. 

This. 

[NANOJAMBO]

1 minute ago, manaliveits105 said:

Only bullying I see on here is by the separatists - they seem to be angry people 

We're having a sensible debate - any thoughts on the current questions of today ? 

[Don Dan]

24 minutes ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

It would be a painful divorce, both externally and internally.

Whether it would ultimately be 'worth it' is entirely subjective.

In a nutshell. 
 

[sadj]

5 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

Only bullying I see on here is by the separatists - they seem to be angry people 

Please provide evidence of this. Only abuse today has been from JackLadd 

Edited February 25, 2021 by sadj

[Justin Z]

2 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

Only bullying I see on here is by the separatists - they seem to be angry people 

 

Coming out with this barely a quarter of an hour after you attempted a failed personal dig at me. Sounds about right—thank you for demonstrating your complete lack of integrity and basic decency yet again.

[sadj]

Just now, Boy Daniel said:

In a nutshell. 
 

Why do you believe that? Is it because of the history of a few hundred years. For instance how was Brexit an easy split in the end (right or wring is not relevant) yet Scotland and the UK wouldn’t be?

[jack D and coke]

3 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

Only bullying I see on here is by the separatists - they seem to be angry people 

You seem to imagine this quite a bit man. 
Why not (as a previous Yes voter especially) explain your journey to a staunch as **** No position and possibly even convince us to follow you over there? 

[NANOJAMBO]

2 minutes ago, Boy Daniel said:

In a nutshell. 
 

 

It would be a painful divorce, both externally and internally.

Whether it would ultimately be 'worth it' is entirely subjective.

*************************************************************8

Why would it be painful - what does that mean ? 

 

What does "worth it" mean to you ?

 

Is it better to stay in the union because the union is "better" or simply because the "divorce" isn't "worth it"?

[Don Dan]

5 minutes ago, sadj said:

Why do you believe that? Is it because of the history of a few hundred years. For instance how was Brexit an easy split in the end (right or wring is not relevant) yet Scotland and the UK wouldn’t be?

The U.K. are far more in twined the The UK and the EU were.

Brexit was an easy split and it’s still not over yet. 

[Governor Tarkin]

2 minutes ago, NANOJAMBO said:

 

It would be a painful divorce, both externally and internally.

Whether it would ultimately be 'worth it' is entirely subjective.

*************************************************************8

Why would it be painful - what does that mean ? 

 

What does "worth it" mean to you ?

 

Is it better to stay in the union because the union is "better" or simply because the "divorce" isn't "worth it"?

 

It's subjective, we're not going to agree.

[NANOJAMBO]

Just now, Boy Daniel said:

The U.K. are far more in twined the The UK and the EU were.

Brexit was an easy split and it’s still not over yet. 

In what way was it easy ?

[Don Dan]

4 minutes ago, NANOJAMBO said:

Why would it be painful - what does that mean ? 

Lots of people would get hurt when trading rules are imposed just ask the fishermen and drivers with lunch boxes. 

 

5 minutes ago, NANOJAMBO said:

What does "worth it" mean to you ?

Will we better off or poorer because of it. 

[Don Dan]

Just now, NANOJAMBO said:

In what way was it easy ?

Sorry I meant wasn’t 

[NANOJAMBO]

Just now, Governor Tarkin said:

 

It's subjective, we're not going to agree.

It's not subjective at all : I'm happy to disagree and have a reasoned debate but I'm trying to understand why you paint such a gloomy picture ? 

[Governor Tarkin]

Just now, Boy Daniel said:

The U.K. are far more in twined the The UK and the EU were.

Brexit was an easy split and it’s still not over yet. 

 

It's far too early to say whether Brexit will be an easy split or not.

The Covid pandemic has temporarily sidelined much of the posturing on either side.

Some of the early signs are encouraging, however.

[manaliveits105]

Cheer up guys latest STV poll today - 52 % YES - huzzah !

down by 4 % since November - BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO !

and the fish effect still to kick in 

[NANOJAMBO]

1 minute ago, Boy Daniel said:

Lots of people would get hurt when trading rules are imposed just ask the fishermen and drivers with lunch boxes. 

 

Will we better off or poorer because of it. 

I'll ask again : what is your measure of the "worth" of independence ?  I'm assuming you think you'd be worse off - based on what ? (happy to be corrected). 

[luckydug]

15 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

Only bullying I see on here is by the separatists - they seem to be angry people 

When did asking people to explain strongly worded opinions become bullying ? 

[sadj]

4 minutes ago, Boy Daniel said:

The U.K. are far more in twined the The UK and the EU were.

Brexit was an easy split and it’s still not over yet. 

Thats irrelevant how entwined they are though. Plenty legislation , laws had to be changed , adapted etc to accomodate leaving the EU , business had to adapt. There would be alot less to change in the case of independence. You also have an easier timescale to reach full agreement. 

2 minutes ago, Boy Daniel said:

Lots of people would get hurt when trading rules are imposed just ask the fishermen and drivers with lunch boxes. 

 

Will we better off or poorer because of it. 

Trading rules such as? What about Fishermen and drivers with lunchboxes. You still are not giving facts or figures just your opinion. 

[Don Dan]

3 minutes ago, NANOJAMBO said:

I'll ask again : what is your measure of the "worth" of independence ?  I'm assuming you think you'd be worse off - based on what ? (happy to be corrected). 

Being better off. 

[sadj]

3 minutes ago, luckydug said:

When did asking people to explain strongly worded opinions become bullying ? 

You will never get an answer from him. Just more trolling. 

[sadj]

Just now, Boy Daniel said:

Being better off. 

Why do you think youd be worse off though? Or the country would be worse off? Hat facts or figures made you arrive at that conclusion

[Don Dan]

3 minutes ago, sadj said:

Thats irrelevant how entwined they are though. Plenty legislation , laws had to be changed , adapted etc to accomodate leaving the EU , business had to adapt. There would be alot less to change in the case of independence. You also have an easier timescale to reach full agreement. 

Trading rules such as? What about Fishermen and drivers with lunchboxes. You still are not giving facts or figures just your opinion. 

Your obviously a dyed in the wool Nat who won’t entertain anyone else’s views. I’m off now to spend my wealth.

[Mikey1874]

44 minutes ago, Boy Daniel said:

indeed you are correct. 
However what has cause the rift between Salmond and Sturgeon. 
once best buddies and the dynamic duo of the independence push to being at each other’s throats. The cause may well be in the media or online somewhere but I’ve not seen anything other than this current spat that could be the cause.

 

When the allegations of sexual misconduct came to light Sturgeon chose to cut off. And Salmond asking Sturgeon to bury it confirmed that. She backed the women. 

 

The questions now are about when Sturgeon knew and whether SNP senior members tried to encourage the complaints. And why was the complaints procedure backdated to cover old events. Which is highly unusual. 

 

Which seems to be Salmond's complaint. 

Edited February 25, 2021 by Mikey1874

[JackLadd]

39 minutes ago, NANOJAMBO said:

Why would these be the outcomes ?

 Based on what evidence ?

I've noticed quite a few on here take this tack but there's never any evidence put forward.

Are you really saying that an established western democracy like Scotland with a relatively large economy cannot succeed ?  If so, why not ? 

 

On the current deficit between tax revenue and spending. Start up costs, no central bank, no means of raising capital and likely high interest rates required to issue bonds on capital markets. Likely movement of people and liquid assets out of Scotland on day one. Don't forget the snp are not selling an iScotland, they are selling Scotland as a dominion of Brussels on par with the former Baltic states of the Soviet Union. The only difference is the EU would expect Scotland to pay for the privilege of surrendering large chunks of sovereignty and influence for access to markets that are already accessible. We would also have to take on and service our share of UK national debt and have an English customs border. All considered it would be a catastrophe.

Edited February 25, 2021 by JackLadd

[sadj]

Just now, Boy Daniel said:

Your obviously a dyed in the wool Nat who won’t entertain anyone else’s views. I’m off now to spend my wealth.

Again not a single answer to a question just opinions. 
 

That is the biggest issue Unionists face , the polls are turning its becoming convince us to stay in the Union not convince people to leave and instead of putting out arguments for debate its responses like this. 

[Governor Tarkin]

1 minute ago, NANOJAMBO said:

It's not subjective at all : I'm happy to disagree and have a reasoned debate but I'm trying to understand why you paint such a gloomy picture ? 

 

It is subjective.

How to you measure 'better'?

Is it socially, culturally, individually, collectively, in purely fiscal terms?

 

I'm yet to be convinced by either 'side' of the debate, because to my mind the terms of the debate are often far too narrow, and descend into the usual black/white, sugar/shite nonsense that we have 124 pages of in this thread, and countless more across the board.

[NANOJAMBO]

5 minutes ago, Boy Daniel said:

Your obviously a dyed in the wool Nat who won’t entertain anyone else’s views. I’m off now to spend my wealth.

How sad & predictable.

[Don Dan]

4 minutes ago, sadj said:

Again not a single answer to a question just opinions. 
 

That is the biggest issue Unionists face , the polls are turning its becoming convince us to stay in the Union not convince people to leave and instead of putting out arguments for debate its responses like this. 

No according to a poll in the scotman today 

[OTT]

R.e the polling - Its going to go up and down continuously, what is undeniable is that there is at least a 50/50 split now in opinion on this. The democratic thing to do is to hold a referendum. 

 

I'm extremely concerned though that the SNP strategy has been built up around this idea of 'St Nicola' and this thing with Salmond is likely to destroy that clean image she and the SNP have built (IMO) at the expense of really allowing any other SNP MSP a profile - the likes of Keith Brown, despite being deputy hasn't anywhere close to the national/international profile Sturgeon has built herself. MP wise, its a bit different, but in terms of MSPs at Holyrood, I don't think there is currently a logical successor. 

[Pans Jambo]

28 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

You seem to imagine this quite a bit man. 
Why not (as a previous Yes voter especially) explain your journey to a staunch as **** No position and possibly even convince us to follow you over there? 

A previous Yes voter

[jack D and coke]

13 minutes ago, sadj said:

You will never get an answer from him. Just more trolling. 

 engages no one because he knows metaphorically he’d get chucked around the thread like a cheap tracksuit. 

[NANOJAMBO]

Just now, Governor Tarkin said:

 

It is subjective.

How to you measure 'better'?

Is it socially, culturally, individually, collectively, in purely fiscal terms?

 

I'm yet to be convinced by either 'side' of the debate, because to my mind the terms of the debate are often far too narrow, and descend into the usual black/white, sugar/shite nonsense that we have 124 pages of in this thread, and countless more across the board.

It isn't subjective : you're either pro or anti indy - and I'd suggest anyone (as is often alluded to on here) putting a measure of "worth" on indy is not in favour. Fair enough. 

You say the debate is too narrow but it's a really simply question : do you want independence and do you want to bear whatever cost arises from that (I say "cost" not only in reference to finance). 

 

What I find interesting is the body of people who are (it seems to me) not necessarily pro union but are definitely not pro indy. At the same time the number of people who say they're anti indy because of the SNP (and quite vehemently so) - when there is no reason to suppose the SNP would be the party of govt if indy arises. 

 

 

 

 

 

[NANOJAMBO]

5 minutes ago, BarneyBattles said:

 

If I'm the BB you refer to I think you're lumping me in with the wrong crowd😃

Apologies for misrreading you.

[Malinga the Swinga]

I don't believe SG have made convincing argument to break up what we have. 

If we have another referendum, I would like SNP to detail exactly how my children will be better off than at present. 

Vague promises are not enough. I want to know if we will be trying to rejoin EU and if we do, what will the entry costs be. I don't want to hear that behind the scenes assurances have been given for this and that, I want legal cast iron guarantees. 

If we get all of that and we, Scotland, vote for independence, then fair enough, I will accept decision and carry on with life as nothing much will change quickly, give or take a few different flags flying. 

I'm Scottish in the current Union and I'll still be Scottish afterwards. 

[sadj]

5 minutes ago, Boy Daniel said:

No according to a poll in the scotman today 

Again not a single answer to what you were asked. 
 

Things have progressively become more indy less union over the last forty years. It is now at a point that the Union side have to make the arguments of persuasion or they will get left behind. Make that argument for us