Thomaso Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 8 minutes ago, Jambo-Fox said: I suspect a lot of trades people saw an opportunity when Hearts had their backs to the wall on the timeline for completion .... As in the Hibs supporting fit-out contractor? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ibrahim Tall Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 As annoying as it being ‘double’ is, £12m was never realistic in a million years. It was idiotic to even mention that figure like it was a fact. I’ve been part of projects at work that consisted of little more than a meeting room and a showroom that were budgeted over a £1m. A bleeping football stand for thousands of people including offices, changing rooms, restaurants etc was never going to be 7 or 8x that figure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homme Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 Inside Tynecastle is absolutely superb and that's all that really matters for me. Turnover I note is way up and will continue to grow so we are reaping the benefits of the new stand already and it isn't even fully functioning yet. And its all pretty much paid for, it's not like we've doubled our debt trying to get it built. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambo-Fox Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 1 minute ago, Homme said: Inside Tynecastle is absolutely superb and that's all that really matters for me. Turnover I note is way up and will continue to grow so we are reaping the benefits of the new stand already and it isn't even fully functioning yet. And its all pretty much paid for, it's not like we've doubled our debt trying to get it built. Perfect summary .... end result matters! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Notts1874 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 9 minutes ago, Cruickshank for Scotland said: As in the Hibs supporting fit-out contractor? As in the Hibs supporting windows boy 😉 Only joking btw . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1971fozzy Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 To be honest it’s a disgrace that it’s came in over double the budget. I , like many don’t go to corporate etc so no idea what it’s like in there but ffs £22million is scandalous without giving us all a breakdown as to how it’s gone so over budget. expecting diamond plated taps for that. This and Levein has tarnished all the good work she has done Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad Religion Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 @Francis Albert🤗 @Francis Albert😋 Love you Franny 😍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboGraham Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 24 minutes ago, Cruickshank for Scotland said: As I’ve said previously the problem was that the Architect and Quantity Surveyor put together a totally unrealistic cost plan for the work. For instance they put in a sum of £450k for the electrical and mechanical work - the cheapest tender they got was £1.3m! £12m was never going to cut it and a Hearts supporting friend of mine who was an MD in a major contractor priced up the job at £18m. Thanks, you are one of the posters I was thinking of earlier. If the figure was always going to be £18m then the % over spend is 20% or £3.6m (using FF’s number of £21.6m). However, if this final figure includes £1m for a pitch then the ‘overspend’ is £2.6m or 14.4%. Now a 14.4% overspend is a rubbish headline but still worth a debate by us. A key question for me is, if the club had expected to pay a minimum of £18m would they have proceeded with the project? If they hadn’t what would the alternative have been?, etc...can the end sometimes justify the means? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboGraham Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 12 minutes ago, 1971fozzy said: To be honest it’s a disgrace that it’s came in over double the budget. I , like many don’t go to corporate etc so no idea what it’s like in there but ffs £22million is scandalous without giving us all a breakdown as to how it’s gone so over budget. expecting diamond plated taps for that. This and Levein has tarnished all the good work she has done Is the “disgrace” the headline that the stand is double the budget, or is the disgrace that the original budget was circa £6m less than a realistic delivery level? The former would be poor execution the latter poor planning. Would you consider both scenarios to be “scandalous”? Not trying to have a go but “disgrace” and “scandalous” are both very strong words. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattie exploited Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 48 minutes ago, Coburg Hearts said: Did you actually read it? yeah I did Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coburg Hearts Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 5 minutes ago, wattie exploited said: yeah I did Then you will have read that no more money is going to be spent on it until the funds are available. You said, and I quote - it will not go down well if AB spends cash on the stand before getting the players in - and that's why I asked if you had read the article. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattie exploited Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 Just now, Coburg Hearts said: Then you will have read that no more money is going to be spent on it until the funds are available. You said, and I quote - it will not go down well if AB spends cash on the stand before getting the players in - and that's why I asked if you had read the article. yeah I read it but you never know at hearts and all I said was it wouldnt go down well if the stand got fixed before the team at the present moment thats what I meant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJGJ Posted January 5, 2020 Author Share Posted January 5, 2020 The bit I looked at closely was the point that she would have given the go ahead this month BUT circumstances have dictated funds are needed elsewhere for the rest of the season Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Tyson Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 Shes such a good businesswoman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FruitJuice Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 51 minutes ago, 1971fozzy said: To be honest it’s a disgrace that it’s came in over double the budget. I , like many don’t go to corporate etc so no idea what it’s like in there but ffs £22million is scandalous without giving us all a breakdown as to how it’s gone so over budget. expecting diamond plated taps for that. This and Levein has tarnished all the good work she has done Levein's plaque wouldn't have been cheap... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coburg Hearts Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 39 minutes ago, wattie exploited said: yeah I read it but you never know at hearts and all I said was it wouldnt go down well if the stand got fixed before the team at the present moment thats what I meant Fair enough, Wattie, but you can put your mind at rest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Dave Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 Pissed off at the lack of clear explanation of the overspending but......Shit stirring *******s. This was covered at the AGM and the DR have chosen to stir the porridge now by reporting a shareholder meeting form newly one month ago Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOak88 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 I wonder if we will ever get a proper explanation/breakdown of the original budget vs actual costs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richierich Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 2 hours ago, 1971fozzy said: To be honest it’s a disgrace that it’s came in over double the budget. I , like many don’t go to corporate etc so no idea what it’s like in there but ffs £22million is scandalous without giving us all a breakdown as to how it’s gone so over budget. expecting diamond plated taps for that. This and Levein has tarnished all the good work she has done 2 hours ago, JamboGraham said: Is the “disgrace” the headline that the stand is double the budget, or is the disgrace that the original budget was circa £6m less than a realistic delivery level? The former would be poor execution the latter poor planning. Would you consider both scenarios to be “scandalous”? Not trying to have a go but “disgrace” and “scandalous” are both very strong words. Going back to my earlier post, I'm going with the lower end budget being the IT style agile project minimum product delivery with further iterations costing more as it's upgraded/developed? It's how we do IT projects, I surely can't be the only one to pick on this project style? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomaso Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 21 minutes ago, TheOak88 said: I wonder if we will ever get a proper explanation/breakdown of the original budget vs actual costs. £6m of the ‘overspend’ can be explained by the unrealistic cost plan put together by the Quantity Surveyor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruyff Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 Imo mistakes were made. However, there is absolutely nothing that can be done to change that now. The stand has to be finished and it will be. It is what it is. 🤷🏼♂️ Also, the Weegie press in the last few weeks have printed constant negative stories about Hearts to undermine any sort of positivity. Don’t rise to it. We know the stand is way over it’s original budget, let’s not pretend to be shocked and spin into some faux outrage, they want that, they don’t want us to be united and looking forward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ToqueJambo Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 I don't get some of these comments. The stand isn't just a stand for me, and probably many more. It marks the end of a horrific period during which we spent at least 15 or more years stressing about whether we'd have to leave Tynecastle, and it symbolises our recovery from a traumatic near-death experience. If we can afford it, which it seems we can, then it's a bargain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i8hibsh Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 A big and tough, hard nosed, no nonsense, successful, hardened and savvy business women, just don't say anything bad about her as she is just an ickle old lady. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
been here before Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 (edited) Over £20 000 000 for a stand that still isnt finished some 2.5 years after it was started. Other than the nice chips theres nothing particularly outstanding about it that justifies that price tag. Having been in it a few times I still prefer my seat in the Wheatfield. Edited January 5, 2020 by been here before Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gowestjambo Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 I have never read so much drivel justifying the costs relating to the new stand. At the start of any building project, quotes are obtained and these are compared to similar projects. When comparing quotes, it is perfectly normal to discard the most expensive and the cheapest. The remaining quotes are then fully examined to establish the viability and credentials of the proposed supplier. Either this process was not carried out properly, or the Board were not diligent enough before appointing the contractor. None of us would accept a quote for building work, and then meekly agree to paying twice as much. For Ann Budge to have been a successful Business women, it throws up huge questions about her judgement of the building of the new stand, and her ability to be CEO of a Football team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Section Q Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 5 hours ago, Baxfee said: It’s the price for staying at gorgie. Would have been much easier to have moved away and built in the outskirts. Would have hated that so accept the costs we are now facing This. If the building costs are covered and we're still in the SPL next season then all's good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ToqueJambo Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 4 minutes ago, gowestjambo said: I have never read so much drivel justifying the costs relating to the new stand. At the start of any building project, quotes are obtained and these are compared to similar projects. When comparing quotes, it is perfectly normal to discard the most expensive and the cheapest. The remaining quotes are then fully examined to establish the viability and credentials of the proposed supplier. Either this process was not carried out properly, or the Board were not diligent enough before appointing the contractor. None of us would accept a quote for building work, and then meekly agree to paying twice as much. For Ann Budge to have been a successful Business women, it throws up huge questions about her judgement of the building of the new stand, and her ability to be CEO of a Football team. Not sure it's as simple as that. Is it not part over-spend but mostly extra things being added, ie the scope expanding? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sid Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 Only piece of new news is that it appears that Ann has decided to postpone the final phase of the stand due to “other priorities”. All of the financial numbers have been known for ages and clearly identified at AGM. The only other priority is sort the playing/management “side of the business”. we have appointed a new manager (who I haven’t heard anyone challenge - and I personally love the attitude and very early playing style.) we are appointing an assistant and it has now been confirmed we have been unable to appoint his previous assistants due to contractual disputes. the players being talked about (Lafferty 20 goal per season, for example, appear to be of a level above what we have and seems like funding is coming from finalising the stand as a short term measure to try and avoid us being relegated. To me, that’s a very good news story but the Sun put a negative slant on it and a lot on here decide to regurgitate what they have put on numerous other threads about concerns about overspend on stand. I’m not arguing that there are questions around escalating costs of the stand but not sure why people feel the need to ignore positivity and repeat again and again their same negativity about old news rather than pick up the real announcement of good news about player/manager funding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seymour M Hersh Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 Excellent news. I like the sound of a a £22m stand much more than I do an £11m stand. Sounds so much more substantial and properly fitted out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
77Mackay77 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 Got to love the Budge haters on here. Totally ignoring what the club has already told us and the fact it is a pis8 poor and very misleading article. Firstly the figure quoted is not just the main stand but includes stuff like the pitch and work done to the rest of the stadium. Secondly, as clearly explained by the club already, they increased the spec in terms of the quality of the fit out from the original plans and have added in facilities that were not in the original plans. Such as the Eighteen 74 bar, Heritage Lounge and TV Studio. I mean I myself am staggered that such facilities cost us anything and am disgusted that the club did not find some fairy dust and build them for free!! https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/sport/football/hearts-extra-final-touches-take-tynecastle-upgrade-cost-aps18m-219386%3famp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Beni of Gorgie Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 Clawing the money back already, had benefactors assisting but no surprise people willing to go for the drama Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Beni of Gorgie Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 Key part of the article, money was going to be spent on it in January but won't now. So the team is coming first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
highlandjambo3 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 Are the escalators in operation yet? If so, from where to where......or did I just dream we were having these 😁 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
77Mackay77 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 12 minutes ago, Lord BJ said: The management of the stand has been handled pretty poorly imo. Poor tendering and planning approach, design on hoof and fingers crossed approach will always lead to massive overspend. We indulged in them all from what I know. It is what it is and nothing new news wise. The redevelopment wasn’t handled particularly well and a good number of people were out their depth for a variety of reasons. it should also be noted some of the companies involved in the project gave Hearts exceptional payments conditions, terms and rates. To try and aid the club with keeping costs down and cash flow. But there hasn’t been a massive overspend. We increased the spec and added additional development to the project. That is not overspend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gigolo-Aunt Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 All said and done it’s been a bit of a shambles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bull's-eye Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 22 minutes ago, highlandjambo3 said: Are the escalators in operation yet? If so, from where to where......or did I just dream we were having these 😁 Yes, I've been on the one that goes from the (hopefully) temporary PR Bar on the ground floor up to the second floor. It's bloody marvellous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bull's-eye Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 7 minutes ago, 77Mackay77 said: But there hasn’t been a massive overspend. We increased the spec and added additional development to the project. That is not overspend. Is the correct answer but you're wasting your time on here with knowledge and logic. I think Ann deserves some credit for budgeting for the 2nd Floor that's now running at an underspend 😀😀😀 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pablo Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 It's a bit rubbish in all honesty. The financials, the experience and the aesthetics. Could have been so much better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirt Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 4 minutes ago, pablo said: It's a bit rubbish in all honesty. The financials, the experience and the aesthetics. Could have been so much better. As much as I agree with you it is funny, in a way, to think back to when the stand was still just a bit of a dream. Given how things were at the time I’d have bitten your hand off for the stand we have now and the fact we’re still playing in Gorgie. I think it all could have been done better, but I also think we’re shifting the goalposts on Budge ever so slightly. Keep us alive, keep us in Gorgie and we’ll worry about everything else later. We have now arrived at later and in hindsight it all looks a bit guff, but hindsight is always 20/20 as they say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pablo Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 2 minutes ago, Squirt said: As much as I agree with you it is funny, in a way, to think back to when the stand was still just a bit of a dream. Given how things were at the time I’d have bitten your hand off for the stand we have now and the fact we’re still playing in Gorgie. I think it all could have been done better, but I also think we’re shifting the goalposts on Budge ever so slightly. Keep us alive, keep us in Gorgie and we’ll worry about everything else later. We have now arrived at later and in hindsight it all looks a bit guff, but hindsight is always 20/20 as they say. I know and I hate talking the club down. But it's just not a very pleasant place to move around. Cramp and dark, with people bumping into each other. There's not enough space to hang around and, well spend money! Pitch side, I'm in row 13 and get rained and dripped on. On the plus side, the entry through the electronic turnstiles in excellent and the painting is good. Totally agree that the most important thing is that we are still in Gorgie and the City. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blairdin Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 (edited) For some reason, in this country we have a bad habit of underestimating to cost and construction time of big civil engineering projects - see Edinburgh Trams, the Parliament building as much much bigger examples. I think in this country all too often we get project management all wrong. We started building the new stand before we'd even decided how to use the space in it. We were designing and redesigning as we went along. Common sense says it was a recipe for disaster on terms of budgeting and costs. Do we want to gnash teeth and pour over every reason, or move on? I didn't think Tynecastle redevelopment would be viable at all. I'm delighted to be wrong. Despite the overspend, it's probably still cheaper, and definitely better, than an out of the city new build stadium. The new stand is excellent, and will be a great facility once completed. It will set us up for years. Edited January 5, 2020 by blairdin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirt Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 11 minutes ago, pablo said: I know and I hate talking the club down. But it's just not a very pleasant place to move around. Cramp and dark, with people bumping into each other. There's not enough space to hang around and, well spend money! Pitch side, I'm in row 13 and get rained and dripped on. On the plus side, the entry through the electronic turnstiles in excellent and the painting is good. Totally agree that the most important thing is that we are still in Gorgie and the City. I’m in the Wheatfield but I’ve sat in the main stand twice and I tend to take a walk round to the new stand when I get into the ground because the toilets are nicer for a pish and I can grab a smoke at the bottom of the stairs next to the fans bar. I’ve always thought it looked a decent size although I’ve got to admit the farthest into it I’ve gone is probably the strongbow legends lounge door, maybe it’s tighter farther down. Funny you mention getting rained on because we’re in row 5, and normally miss out the massive big drips coming from the trusses but we do get smashed when it’s windy, you have got to wonder why when building the new stand they didn’t say, let’s make it protrude just a few extra inches because we know what happens at the other 3 stands. My biggest gripe with the new stand, by a long long way, is the fact that the half way line isn’t centred with the tunnel. Drives me absolutely batty looking at it. If I had the money I’d personally pay another £20 million just to sort that out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3fingersreid Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 My only gripe about the new stand is not having an unrestricted view of the pitch . New stand £22m and in Gorgie or new build out of town soulless stadium ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hackney Hearts Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 1 hour ago, pablo said: Cramp and dark, with people bumping into each other. And yet the nostalgia for the Shed is rampant! (rightly so) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hackney Hearts Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 44 minutes ago, Squirt said: My biggest gripe with the new stand, by a long long way, is the fact that the half way line isn’t centred with the tunnel. Drives me absolutely batty looking at it. If I had the money I’d personally pay another £20 million just to sort that out! This was a specific request rather than an error though? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allystrachan Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 Could have filled the corners for that sort of money! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homme Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 3 minutes ago, Hackney Hearts said: This was a specific request rather than an error though? Think so. Isn't the old tunnel integrated into it somehow? It was something that was spoken of early on in construction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debut 4 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 I could be wrong but I thought a previous board predicted large costs for one new stand but it was shot out the water as an attempt to come across negative and force a move away? I’m delighted we stayed in a Gorgie anyway but some people have better foresight and experience in respect of construction projects. It is what it is now, we’ll just have to cut the player budget and keep McLean upfront 🤪 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pans Jambo Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 11 hours ago, Baxfee said: It’s the price for staying at gorgie. Would have been much easier to have moved away and built in the outskirts. Would have hated that so accept the costs we are now facing This. Just look at Aberdeen. Fek that scenario!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cade Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 As others have said, there is not a huge overspend. The original spec was for a very basic outfit. As the club's finances have improved (record turnovers etc), Hearts have increased the specifications. We're simply adding bigger and better facilities as we can afford it. It's like when you buy a house then spend more money on a new kitchen, new bathroom, new boiler, add an extension and decorate every room. You haven't paid more for the house. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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