U.S. Politics megathread (merged)

[robroy1874]

well, unlike most - he seems to want to deliver on his election promises

[Unknown user]

well, unlike most - he seems to want to deliver on his election promises

So it IS targeting Muslims then?

[Francis Albert]

So it IS targeting Muslims then?

predominantly Muslim states so in that sense yes.

[alwaysthereinspirit]

So it IS targeting Muslims then?

Some.

[elvoys]

 

How much of an arsehole do you have to be to actually think Social Justice Warrior is an insult by the way

 

"Someone who believes in the cause of social justice?? Booooooo!"

 

You know, just maybe transgender bathrooms in high schools, demanding gender neutral pronouns and making martyrs of cop killers might be considered by 'some' as not 'social justice'. The key is that term just like 'progressive' has turned into a self justifying label so it's satirised. Its much like north Korea calls itself the Democratic peoples republic.

 

What? HATE SPEECH! fascists!

 

And South Park made a whole season out of the term. Assholes they are not but simply got a measure of those purple haired morons.

Edited February 2, 2017 by elvoys

[Unknown user]

Some have been denying this is targeting Muslims, I'm glad we can all agree otherwise.

[Unknown user]

You know, just maybe transgender bathrooms in high schools, demanding gender neutral pronouns and making martyrs of cop killers might be considered by 'some' as not 'social justice'. The key is that term just like 'progressive' has turned into a self justifying label so it's satirised. Its much like north Korea calls itself the Democratic peoples republic.

 

What? HATE SPEECH! fascists!

You're an utter caricature Edited February 2, 2017 by Smithee

[elvoys]

You're an utter caricature

Do engage with the argument if you can little boy.

[ToadKiller Dog]

So it IS targeting Muslims then?

Funny how all Muslim majority nations not on the banned list Trump has business interests in .

[Unknown user]

But good answer in terms of an example I suppose- THAT's how much of an arsehole you have to be to think Social Justice Warrior is an insult

[Unknown user]

Do engage with the argument if you can little boy.

I asked how much of an arsehole you have be to think Social Justice Warrior is an insult.

Your word soup reply does not constitute an argument and isn't worth engaging champ.

[elvoys]

But good answer in terms of an example I suppose- THAT's how much of an arsehole you have to be to think Social Justice Warrior is an insult

I'll attach a trigger warning for you next time.

[elvoys]

I asked how much of an arsehole you have be to think Social Justice Warrior is an insult.

Your word soup reply does not constitute an argument and isn't worth engaging champ.

You know you can't pal. But you're a product of the modern day left - Its not your fault.

[elvoys]

Funny how all Muslim majority nations not on the banned list Trump has business interests in .

Turkmenistan? Really? He must be a busy man.

[Unknown user]

You know you can't pal. But you're a product of the modern day left - Its not your fault.

I have no problem with you thinking that chief. You enjoy the rest of your day now

[jamboz]

Funny how all Muslim majority nations not on the banned list Trump has business interests in .

 

Yeah, most are nations that actual terrorists have come from as well but hey ho... 

[ToadKiller Dog]

Turkmenistan? Really? He must be a busy man.

OK that one nation which of course comes under his fellow Autocrat Putin's sphere of influence .

[elvoys]

OK that one nation which of course comes under his fellow Autocrat Putin's sphere of influence .

He adopted obombers list. It is gesture politics to his base, they have little strategic weight like Saudi (or with iran can be used for brownie points with the gulf) and the reasonable case can be made they are all jihadist ridden failed states/ war zones where vetting might be untrustworthy. Might not seem worth the bruha in conventional politics wise but him and his admin aren't conventional.

[Eldar Hadzimehmedovic]

It's a shame how every political discussion these days is so polarised.

 

Saying that though, if we must divide ourselves right down the middle I'm happy over here with almost every cool, smart person on the planet. If you're happy getting down with Trump, Farage, Le Pen, Milo, Fox News, Daily Mail, Hopkins, Kid Rock then who is anyone to criticise. Good for you.

[Rocco_Jambo]

It's a shame how every political discussion these days is so polarised.

 

Saying that though, if we must divide ourselves right down the middle I'm happy over here with almost every cool, smart person on the planet. If you're happy getting down with Trump, Farage, Le Pen, Milo, Fox News, Daily Mail, Hopkins, Kid Rock then who is anyone to criticise. Good for you.

Irony in full overload there.

[Seymour M Hersh]

Yeah, most are nations that actual terrorists have come from as well but hey ho... 

 

The list being used was created by Obama's administration but hey ho...

[Jambo-Jimbo]

The list being used was created by Obama's administration but hey ho...

 

And!

[AlphonseCapone]

How much of an arsehole do you have to be to actually think Social Justice Warrior is an insult by the way?

 

"Someone who believes in the cause of social justice?? Booooooo!"

 

Up there with calling folk progressive or liberal... the horror of it all!

[AlphonseCapone]

Interesting point on QT last night by an Iraqi immigrant. He was saying that Trump, and most folk agree, that the Kurds have been the most the effective fighting force on the ground against IS. But many of these men will have Iraqi passports and therefore covered in Trump's ban. So he is effectively lumping them in with the terrorists they've died fighting.

 

I realise some folk will argue how else can you do it (I'd say don't but he did pledge he would) but I thought it was a good example of how ham fisted this blanket ban is.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

Interesting point on QT last night by an Iraqi immigrant. He was saying that Trump, and most folk agree, that the Kurds have been the most the effective fighting force on the ground against IS. But many of these men will have Iraqi passports and therefore covered in Trump's ban. So he is effectively lumping them in with the terrorists they've died fighting.

 

I realise some folk will argue how else can you do it (I'd say don't but he did pledge he would) but I thought it was a good example of how ham fisted this blanket ban is.

 

I saw a report on TV the other day about Iraqi Special Forces, who were saying that it's ok for them to fight and die alongside American Soldiers, but they are not welcome to visit America as Trump has labelled them as terrorists.  They were questioning why they should still fight alongside the Americans as they feel that they've been betrayed.

 

It just showed the cack handed way this ban was implemented, when interpreters both Iraqi & Afghani who had been granted a new life in America, and were going to be denied entry into the US, until the State Department clarified that the ban didn't apply to them. 

This just illustrates that little thought had been put into the implementation of the ban. 

[doctor jambo]

Interesting point on QT last night by an Iraqi immigrant. He was saying that Trump, and most folk agree, that the Kurds have been the most the effective fighting force on the ground against IS. But many of these men will have Iraqi passports and therefore covered in Trump's ban. So he is effectively lumping them in with the terrorists they've died fighting.

 

I realise some folk will argue how else can you do it (I'd say don't but he did pledge he would) but I thought it was a good example of how ham fisted this blanket ban is

Devils advocate here- the Kurds are fighting their own enemy in their own country out of self preservation.

Quite why that would allow them to go to Disneyland on holiday is lost on me.

Remember we supported Al Queda in Afghanistan fighting the Russians- not sure that would give old Bin Laden his Fast Pass do you?

the enemy of your enemy quite often turns out to be your enemy too.

( I don't support the travel ban BTW, but the tizzy is ridiculous)

[doctor jambo]

I saw a report on TV the other day about Iraqi Special Forces, who were saying that it's ok for them to fight and die alongside American Soldiers, but they are not welcome to visit America as Trump has labelled them as terrorists.  They were questioning why they should still fight alongside the Americans as they feel that they've been betrayed.

 

It just showed the cack handed way this ban was implemented, when interpreters both Iraqi & Afghani who had been granted a new life in America, and were going to be denied entry into the US, until the State Department clarified that the ban didn't apply to them. 

This just illustrates that little thought had been put into the implementation of the ban. 

Same point applies

The US are over there in Iraq, assisting the Iraqis get their country back

I don't see why that should make it easier for Iraqi soldiers to visit the US

[AlphonseCapone]

Devils advocate here- the Kurds are fighting their own enemy in their own country out of self preservation.

Quite why that would allow them to go to Disneyland on holiday is lost on me.

Remember we supported Al Queda in Afghanistan fighting the Russians- not sure that would give old Bin Laden his Fast Pass do you?

the enemy of your enemy quite often turns out to be your enemy too.

( I don't support the travel ban BTW, but the tizzy is ridiculous)

Appreciate you are trying to play devil's advocate but it's not only their enemy, it's our enemy too. I also know they are hoping it increases the liklihood of a Kurdish independent state, something that would rival Israel-Palestine for complexity.

 

The Disney Land point is pretty lame tbh. It's not about holidaying. They feel they are being lumped in as potential terrorists despite fighting said terrorists, all because of their passport.

 

Extreme example but say a bunch of Scottish Nationalists decide to become terrorists, if America or any country banned all Scots because of it, including yourself (if you aren't Scottish then pretend for the example ) , would you sit back and put your hands up saying, aye that's sound I understand? I don't think I would, I'd be raging to be grouped in with them.

 

It's America's choice what it does, and Trump said he'd do something like this so it's no great surprise. But to me, the example of the Kurds and the translators mentioned above, people who I don't think Donald or Americans in general consider terrorists, being caught up in this just demonstrates again that a lot of Trump policies are based on populism without much thought to their implications. That's fine when it comes to America domestically, their choice. But if he takes that same approach in the South China Sea or elsewhere, then that becomes a big problem for us all.

[AlphonseCapone]

I saw a report on TV the other day about Iraqi Special Forces, who were saying that it's ok for them to fight and die alongside American Soldiers, but they are not welcome to visit America as Trump has labelled them as terrorists. They were questioning why they should still fight alongside the Americans as they feel that they've been betrayed.

 

It just showed the cack handed way this ban was implemented, when interpreters both Iraqi & Afghani who had been granted a new life in America, and were going to be denied entry into the US, until the State Department clarified that the ban didn't apply to them.

This just illustrates that little thought had been put into the implementation of the ban.

Exactly.

[doctor jambo]

Appreciate you are trying to play devil's advocate but it's not only their enemy, it's our enemy too. I also know they are hoping it increases the liklihood of a Kurdish independent state, something that would rival Israel-Palestine for complexity.

 

The Disney Land point is pretty lame tbh. It's not about holidaying. They feel they are being lumped in as potential terrorists despite fighting said terrorists, all because of their passport.

 

Extreme example but say a bunch of Scottish Nationalists decide to become terrorists, if America or any country banned all Scots because of it, including yourself (if you aren't Scottish then pretend for the example ) , would you sit back and put your hands up saying, aye that's sound I understand? I don't think I would, I'd be raging to be grouped in with them.

 

It's America's choice what it does, and Trump said he'd do something like this so it's no great surprise. But to me, the example of the Kurds and the translators mentioned above, people who I don't think Donald or Americans in general consider terrorists, being caught up in this just demonstrates again that a lot of Trump policies are based on populism without much thought to their implications. That's fine when it comes to America domestically, their choice. But if he takes that same approach in the South China Sea or elsewhere, then that becomes a big problem for us all.

The world functions on generalisations

When the Kurds are not killing ISIS, they are blowing up Turks in shopping malls

The US was burned previously by "allies" the Mujahidin

And if the Scot Nats became terrorists and all Scots were banned from the US I'd simply go somewhere else- and be slightly sad that Ashton Kutcher had to wear a jimmy hat to the Oscars to highlight the plight off all those Scots who never really wanted to go to America now having to go to somewhere else instead. 

It is a countries right to determine who can come in

So be it

[Bindy Badgy]

Same point applies

The US are over there in Iraq, assisting the Iraqis get their country back

I don't see why that should make it easier for Iraqi soldiers to visit the US

 

A lot/all of them will have made some very unpleasant enemies on the understanding that they would be allowed to emigrate in due course.

 

John Oliver did a segment on it a while ago. Obviously a left leaning source but it should give a taster of some of the issues.

 

[AlphonseCapone]

The world functions on generalisations

When the Kurds are not killing ISIS, they are blowing up Turks in shopping malls

The US was burned previously by "allies" the Mujahidin

And if the Scot Nats became terrorists and all Scots were banned from the US I'd simply go somewhere else- and be slightly sad that Ashton Kutcher had to wear a jimmy hat to the Oscars to highlight the plight off all those Scots who never really wanted to go to America now having to go to somewhere else instead.

It is a countries right to determine who can come in

So be it

Aye to an extent, doesn't make it right.

 

Let's not pretend this is about actually protecting Americans rather than playing to populism, unless you can give me a good safety explanation for excluding Saudi from the list?

 

It is a country's right, of course. But what's your opinion on this ban by Trump looking ill thought out and the concern that if he takes a similiar ill thought out approach to foreign policy then we all are involved potentially?

[deesidejambo]

Aye to an extent, doesn't make it right.

 

Let's not pretend this is about actually protecting Americans rather than playing to populism, unless you can give me a good safety explanation for excluding Saudi from the list?

 

It is a country's right, of course. But what's your opinion on this ban by Trump looking ill thought out and the concern that if he takes a similiar ill thought out approach to foreign policy then we all are involved potentially?

He definitely goes by the seat of the pants and so far he is getting away with it.

 

But his luck will run out as he gets more gallus and when he screws up he will get pummelled.

[Rocco_Jambo]

A lot/all of them will have made some very unpleasant enemies on the understanding that they would be allowed to emigrate in due course.

 

John Oliver did a segment on it a while ago. Obviously a left leaning source but it should give a taster of some of the issues.

 

It's a temporary ban for 3 months is it not? If the temporary ban ends then and visa applications are then accepted with enhanced vetting procedures then I doubt 90 days is going to have made much difference in the grand scheme of things for these people.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

Same point applies

The US are over there in Iraq, assisting the Iraqis get their country back

I don't see why that should make it easier for Iraqi soldiers to visit the US

 

The issue that came across with the Iraqi Special Forces was that they had been trained by the Americans, had already been vetted by the Americans and fight and die alongside the Americans.

 

Whilst none were likely to be going on holiday to the US anytime soon, if indeed ever, It was more the principle of Trumps actions which got their back up, as they believed that America was their friend, that America had already deemed them to be the 'good guys' and that America viewed them as an ally, then along comes Trump and labels the Iraqi's as terrorists.

 

I genuinely can see how and why they feel betrayed by America.

[doctor jambo]

Aye to an extent, doesn't make it right.

 

Let's not pretend this is about actually protecting Americans rather than playing to populism, unless you can give me a good safety explanation for excluding Saudi from the list?

 

It is a country's right, of course. But what's your opinion on this ban by Trump looking ill thought out and the concern that if he takes a similiar ill thought out approach to foreign policy then we all are involved potentially?

I am an interested by-stander.

To be honest he is the thin  end of the wedge

The post 2008 world has got off lightly

I'm amazed that there have been no revolutions or large scale social disturbances

-proper ones, not Lilly allen screaming about white men touching her fandan

It may be that Brexit and Trump avert a full scale far right uprising

[doctor jambo]

The issue that came across with the Iraqi Special Forces was that they had been trained by the Americans, had already been vetted by the Americans and fight and die alongside the Americans.

 

Whilst none were likely to be going on holiday to the US anytime soon, if indeed ever, It was more the principle of Trumps actions which got their back up, as they believed that America was their friend, that America had already deemed them to be the 'good guys' and that America viewed them as an ally, then along comes Trump and labels the Iraqi's as terrorists.

 

I genuinely can see how and why they feel betrayed by America.

America sees them as useful.

That's all

The fact they see themselves as Americas friends is neither here nor there.

If they want I'm sure America would more than happily leave, and the Iraqi forces can continue doing the job solo, as they did so appallingly badly before.

The US are there to bail them out, not invite them for dinner

[alwaysthereinspirit]

He definitely goes by the seat of the pants and so far he is getting away with it.

 

But his luck will run out as he gets more gallus and when he screws up he will get pummelled.

Pummelled by who?

[Francis Albert]

People are aware that the Obama regime and the British Government left their translators stranded? Or did that not count somehow?

 

I'd place a small bet that when all this dies down more refugees from the Middle East will be accepted by the Trump regime than the Obama and Cameron regimes.

[Space Mackerel]

The daft blonde trout pus woman actually making up stories about refugees and massacres in the US.

This is frightening. The whole administration is absolutely bat shit crazy!

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/kellyanne-conway-bowling-green-massacre-invent-make-up-donald-trump-muslim-ban-iraqi-refugees-a7560726.html?cmpid=facebook-post

[AlphonseCapone]

People are aware that the Obama regime and the British Government left their translators stranded? Or did that not count somehow?

 

I'd place a small bet that when all this dies down more refugees from the Middle East will be accepted by the Trump regime than the Obama and Cameron regimes.

You are aware two wrongs don't make a right?

[deesidejambo]

Pummelled by who?

The US Media. Don't underestimate their ability to influence those who Hillary stupidly alienated into voting Trump.

[Francis Albert]

You are aware two wrongs don't make a right?

I am aware that a hysterical, completely OTT reaction to one wrong while virtually ignoring another is the height of hypocrisy.

 

I am also aware that describing the Trump regime as fascist and saying Trump is a new Hitler is deeply insulting to the victims of the Nazis.

[doctor jambo]

The US Media. Don't underestimate their ability to influence those who Hillary stupidly alienated into voting Trump.

Meryl Streep

welcoming refugees to come and live in areas of the US miles away from her rarefied gated communities, safe in the knowledge that they will never take her job, or affect the prospects of her kids getting a home or job, or her grandkids sharing already over crowded schools with even more kids for whom English is not a language. 

How many of our own MP's invited immigrants to come and stay with them?

How many actually did it?

[Francis Albert]

The US Media. Don't underestimate their ability to influence those who Hillary stupidly alienated into voting Trump.

The "alienation" of those who voted Trump had as much to do with the media coverage of Trump as with Hillary! The current coverage of the Trump presidency will strengthen his standing among his supporters. Every luvvie and student protest will be worth a few thousand more Trump votes.

[alwaysthereinspirit]

The US Media. Don't underestimate their ability to influence those who Hillary stupidly alienated into voting Trump.

They couldn't pummel the man anymore.

[aussieh]

He definitely goes by the seat of the pants and so far he is getting away with it.

 

But his luck will run out as he gets more gallus and when he screws up he will get pummelled.

This

[Jamdub]

Thinking of opening a book who will assassinate this roaster.......The list would be huge from all over the world.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

People are aware that the Obama regime and the British Government left their translators stranded? Or did that not count somehow?

 

I'd place a small bet that when all this dies down more refugees from the Middle East will be accepted by the Trump regime than the Obama and Cameron regimes.

 

Utterly despicable actions from both the UK and US governments, which has resulted in many of the translators being killed, which makes this latest potential betrayal at least as bad.

If Trump is trying to be a better President than Obama, well don't repeat the same shameful acts as your predecessor did, fortunately the State Department has relented and everything should be ok.

[Norm]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/donald-trump-destroy-johnson-amendment-religious-freedom-separation-church-state-a7559421.html

 

 

Personally, this is the worst thing he has planned in my opinion.