Bitcoin and all that

[IronJambo]

6 hours ago, Smithee said:

 

That's not using it as a currency to buy things, that's being able to quickly turn it into a currency to buy things. It's still a commodity that you have to turn into currency.

 

The important part is excluding the banks, which amounts to the same thing as spending it directly. It's as good as really.

[IronJambo]

6 hours ago, Smithee said:

 

Just be careful mate, it was my new hustle when I started the thread 4 and a half years ago too!

I've got a really good mate that's launching a token at some point in the next few months. I'm quite amazed at where he's got to in a small space of time so far.

[hughesie27]

1 hour ago, IronJambo said:

I've got a really good mate that's launching a token at some point in the next few months. I'm quite amazed at where he's got to in a small space of time so far.

Keep us up to date.

[IronJambo]

1 hour ago, hughesie27 said:

Keep us up to date.

You can Google but you won't find much. 

 

Tokens called Greening and it's being set up as an eco friendly mining token. They'll be setting it up with a solar farm in Cyprus with an aim to not use any grid electricity. Lots more to it but I'm very blurry with what's in the public domain and what I know so I don't want to share too much. They're trying to learn from the mistakes of others and already have partnerships in place to help with most things.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

20 hours ago, IronJambo said:

You speak like all crypto is a scam. Like it or not, it's the future. 

 

Blockchain will be invaluable. We base our money on gold reserves. Lumps of metal 🤦. Lumps of metal props up our economy because we were told it's valuable, get your head around that.

 

Not all of it's a scam. Some of it is just a gigantic useless planet-killing waste. It is, however, riddled with scams, con jobs, high exposure to theft, and things that put small investors at an enormous disadvantage.

 

It's the future in the same way Segway scooters were the future 20 years ago. And the way 15 years ago we were 5 years away from everyone having self-driving cars.

 

Crypto and blockchain together do nothing—absolutely nothing—of any value that cannot be done more easily and better some other way. It's a libertarian wetdream of decentralization and technical purity that tries to turn processes that have always been sociotechnical into only number theory.

 

And there hasn't been a widespread gold or silver reserve currency system for over 50 years. Currencies are managed by central banks. They are valuable in large part because large numbers of people are required to pay taxes in that currency and safe haven investments are denominated in them. Bitcoin and any other crypto, on the other hand, are valuable for no other reason than because you've been told it's valuable and will become valuable.

 

And Bitcoin, of course, now uses more power than Argentina for all of the worthless "mining" going on and underwriting transactions.

 

Even if it were all perfectly safe and legitimate, it would be a colossal waste of time and resources. And much of it is not at all safe or legitimate.

[IronJambo]

1 hour ago, Led Tasso said:

 

 

 

Crypto and blockchain together do nothing—absolutely nothing—of any value that cannot be done more easily and better some other way. It's a libertarian wetdream of decentralization and technical purity that tries to turn processes that have always been sociotechnical into only number theory.

 

 

I'm waiting to hear this other way that's easier and better.

 

You sound like an old man that's out of touch and scared of change. It's like crypto threatens your very being or something.

 

[Watt-Zeefuik]

1 hour ago, IronJambo said:

I'm waiting to hear this other way that's easier and better.

 

You sound like an old man that's out of touch and scared of change. It's like crypto threatens your very being or something.

 

 

Way of doing what? Currency? "Fiat currency" as crypto-heads love to call it, or central bank-managed currency, emerged to solve the kinds of currency stability problems which now are one of many obstacles to crypto actually being used as currency for lending and savings. Businesses that have tried to accept various cryptocoins as currency for transactions almost universally give up because the transactions costs soar too high.

 

NFTs were supposed to be the Next Great Thing because they were supposed to solve the problem of copyright protections, but it's increasingly clear that they don't even begin to do that (as no one is required to respect the ownership of an NFT if they don't feel like it) and have become an art market that is somehow, amazingly, even more weird and ridiculous than the prestige art auction circuit.

 

Ah, but what about the money sent to Ukraine using crypto? Well, yes, that's nice, and I suppose using the same amount of energy we could have sent them a bunch of chickens and they could have sold those too, but again, the amount sent through perfectly normal non-crypto financial channels makes that money a rounding error.

 

But yes, you are correct, crypto has solved the problem of laundering money among criminal organizations and shady business tycoons far easier. You're right, I don't have a better solution for them.

 

I am getting into my middle aged years, I suppose, and I've never really claimed to be in touch, but as a software developer I'm surrounded by people making crypto "plays" and getting invitations onto the next boutique blockchain equity. Boy, it works out for them in the short run, and a few I know have taken the W and quit. Far more have gone further in deep and gotten soaked.

 

And yes, because of crypto's (particularly Bitcoin's) gigantic, useless carbon budget, crypto does play a small but significant and uniquely wasteful part in threatening my very existence, just as it threatens yours.

[IronJambo]

43 minutes ago, Led Tasso said:

 

Way of doing what? Currency? "Fiat currency" as crypto-heads love to call it, or central bank-managed currency, emerged to solve the kinds of currency stability problems which now are one of many obstacles to crypto actually being used as currency for lending and savings. Businesses that have tried to accept various cryptocoins as currency for transactions almost universally give up because the transactions costs soar too high.

 

NFTs were supposed to be the Next Great Thing because they were supposed to solve the problem of copyright protections, but it's increasingly clear that they don't even begin to do that (as no one is required to respect the ownership of an NFT if they don't feel like it) and have become an art market that is somehow, amazingly, even more weird and ridiculous than the prestige art auction circuit.

 

Ah, but what about the money sent to Ukraine using crypto? Well, yes, that's nice, and I suppose using the same amount of energy we could have sent them a bunch of chickens and they could have sold those too, but again, the amount sent through perfectly normal non-crypto financial channels makes that money a rounding error.

 

But yes, you are correct, crypto has solved the problem of laundering money among criminal organizations and shady business tycoons far easier. You're right, I don't have a better solution for them.

 

I am getting into my middle aged years, I suppose, and I've never really claimed to be in touch, but as a software developer I'm surrounded by people making crypto "plays" and getting invitations onto the next boutique blockchain equity. Boy, it works out for them in the short run, and a few I know have taken the W and quit. Far more have gone further in deep and gotten soaked.

 

And yes, because of crypto's (particularly Bitcoin's) gigantic, useless carbon budget, crypto does play a small but significant and uniquely wasteful part in threatening my very existence, just as it threatens yours.

Quite a lot of assumptions there on things I didn't and wouldn't say or suggest.

 

You're focussing to much on cryptocurrency and not blockchain. It's blockchain that's useful. Logistics, medical records, product authentication...... It's uses are endless and it probably offers a more secure solution to whatever it's replacing.

[Unknown user]

20 minutes ago, IronJambo said:

Quite a lot of assumptions there on things I didn't and wouldn't say or suggest.

 

You're focussing to much on cryptocurrency and not blockchain. It's blockchain that's useful. Logistics, medical records, product authentication...... It's uses are endless and it probably offers a more secure solution to whatever it's replacing.

 

Fair enough, but then what's the point in cryptocurrency?

You can't buy anything with it, you're at the mercy of unregulated markets and whales. 

Banks, medical companies, governments, etc don't need us buying tokens to be able to take advantage of, and develop the technology.

 

It's a virtual commodity, no more, no less. 

 

[Greedy Jambo]

I've got a Crypto.com visa card, you put your coins on it and buy shit...

Although, the price of that coin has plummeted since they lowered their rewards. 

I've never used it, just thought it was cool, haha. 

[Watt-Zeefuik]

1 hour ago, IronJambo said:

Quite a lot of assumptions there on things I didn't and wouldn't say or suggest.

 

You're focussing to much on cryptocurrency and not blockchain. It's blockchain that's useful. Logistics, medical records, product authentication...... It's uses are endless and it probably offers a more secure solution to whatever it's replacing.

 

Oh, so first crypto was the future, but now I'm focusing too much on it, and you're to "probably offers a more secure solution to whatever it's replacing?"

 

My job is as a data scientist. I literally move data around for a living. I do exactly the kind of thing you're referring to. You could solve some problems I have with blockchain but it's far more work than things like lookup directories, certificates, and standardized REST interfaces.

 

I won't swear up and down that there's not anything anywhere that blockchain won't somehow solve, but for 99% of the use cases it's been proposed for, it's a solution in search of a problem.

[graygo]

55 minutes ago, Led Tasso said:

 

Oh, so first crypto was the future, but now I'm focusing too much on it, and you're to "probably offers a more secure solution to whatever it's replacing?"

 

My job is as a data scientist. I literally move data around for a living. I do exactly the kind of thing you're referring to. You could solve some problems I have with blockchain but it's far more work than things like lookup directories, certificates, and standardized REST interfaces.

 

I won't swear up and down that there's not anything anywhere that blockchain won't somehow solve, but for 99% of the use cases it's been proposed for, it's a solution in search of a problem.

 

Is Ripple not a better alternative to traditional financial payments? Almost instantaneously transfers compared to what it is trying to replace. 

[dobmisterdobster]

Sorry but I won't be lectured by people who put all their money in savings accounts which earn bugger all in interest. Only for their savings to lose value over time due to inflation.

Edited May 31, 2022 by dobmisterdobster

[Unknown user]

21 minutes ago, dobmisterdobster said:

Sorry but I won't be lectured by people who put all their money in savings accounts which earn bugger all in interest. Only for their savings to lose value over time due to inflation.

I don't think anyone was even speaking to you, never mind lecturing

[Unknown user]

40 minutes ago, graygo said:

 

Is Ripple not a better alternative to traditional financial payments? Almost instantaneously transfers compared to what it is trying to replace. 

No, it isn't a currency that my bank recognises.

I've only had one bank account since coming back to the UK but my transactions and transfers go through instantaneously just now, is that not the norm?

[graygo]

21 minutes ago, Smithee said:

No, it isn't a currency that my bank recognises.

I've only had one bank account since coming back to the UK but my transactions and transfers go through instantaneously just now, is that not the norm?

 

Not your bank, not yet anyway but many do (over 100). It was designed to replace SWIFT for international transfers to emerging markets where , it is much faster and importantly much cheaper to carry out a transaction than the current setup.

Point is that it uses Blockchain, cryptocurrency (XRP) and solves a problem, maybe it comes under your 1% exception.

 

Edited June 1, 2022 by graygo

[Unknown user]

1 minute ago, graygo said:

 

Not your bank, not yet anyway but many do (over 100). It was designed to replace SWIFT for international transfers to emerging markets where , it is much faster and importantly much cheaper to carry out a transaction than the current setup.

Point is that it uses Blockchain, cryptocurrency (XRP) and solves a problem, maybe it comes under your 1% exception.

 

My 1% exception?

[graygo]

2 minutes ago, Smithee said:

My 1% exception?

You said "but for 99% of the use cases it's been proposed for, it's a solution in search of a problem."

[Unknown user]

Just now, graygo said:

You said "but for 99% of the use cases it's been proposed for, it's a solution in search of a problem."

I did?

[graygo]

2 minutes ago, Smithee said:

I did?

No, who said you did?

 

 

 

[Unknown user]

12 minutes ago, graygo said:

No, who said you did?

 

 

 

I'm catching up now.

 

Ripple, as a system of transfer, fine. Maybe it'll be adopted, who knows?

 

XRP the cryptocurrency though, that's different, I don't see what part this plays if it's not just a commodity for trading. Is it a utility token? If so, surely banks won't want utility tokens that can fluctuate wildly in value on an unregulated market.

 

I can't see any way that any of the actual cryptocurrencies can break through, the unregulated nature of the market they're traded on and them having third party creators means banks would have take too much on trust and faith.

[graygo]

Just now, Smithee said:

I'm catching up now.

 

Ripple, as a system of transfer, fine. Maybe it'll be adopted, who knows?

 

XRP the cryptocurrency though, that's different, I don't see what part this plays if it's not just a commodity for trading. Is it a utility token? If so, surely banks won't want utility tokens that can fluctuate wildly in value on an unregulated market.

 

I can't see any way that any of the actual cryptocurrencies can break through, the unregulated nature of the market they're traded on and them having third party creators means banks would have take too much on trust and faith.

 

You may well be proved right however my earlier figure of over 100 financial companies who are either using it, trialing it or are interested in it is actually over 300 and includes the like of Santander and Bank of America.

[Unknown user]

2 minutes ago, graygo said:

 

You may well be proved right however my earlier figure of over 100 financial companies who are either using it, trialing it or are interested in it is actually over 300 and includes the like of Santander and Bank of America.

Using what? Xrp or Ripple?

[Unknown user]

Just found this which backs up what I'm saying

 

https://www.ft.com/content/631af8cc-47cc-11e8-8c77-ff51caedcde6

 

"By 2018, over 100 banks had signed up, but most of them were only using Ripple's XCurrent messaging technology, while avoiding the XRP cryptocurrency due to its volatility problems."

 

The cryptocurrencies can't be adopted. The very fact that you can get hold of them to trade in the way you do means they will never be used by financial institutions.

The shared ledger part though, as I say, I can see that, but it's surely got to be a ledger recording either fiat transactions, or a stable cryptocurrency created and controlled by the bank that's pegged to fiat.

 

Edited June 1, 2022 by Smithee

[Watt-Zeefuik]

1 hour ago, graygo said:

 

Is Ripple not a better alternative to traditional financial payments? Almost instantaneously transfers compared to what it is trying to replace. 

 

From that article that @Smitheequoted:

 

So in other words, Swift had a non-blockchain solution that did the same thing.

 

Notably, that article (from 2018) goes on to mention stablecoins, something I find funny because their stability and value are derived from their peg to the "fiat currency" that gets so derided by blockchain enthusiasts. One set of those, Terra, just imploded and took out huge section of the crypto sphere with it. The one that hasn't imploded is effectively just a funny looking bank, complete with reserve assets.

 

1 hour ago, dobmisterdobster said:

Sorry but I won't be lectured by people who put all their money in savings accounts which earn bugger all in interest. Only for their savings to lose value over time due to inflation.

 

Fine, whoever that is, don't listen to them.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

Also germane to the current convo, the creator of Dogecoin is convinced an even bigger crypto bubble burst is coming down the road.

 

https://www.crikey.com.au/2022/05/30/dogecoin-jackson-palmer-elon-musk-cryptocurrency-bubble/

 

But the must funny part of this is that Elon Musk doesn't know how to run a python script.

[IronJambo]

7 hours ago, Led Tasso said:

 

Oh, so first crypto was the future, but now I'm focusing too much on it, and you're to "probably offers a more secure solution to whatever it's replacing?"

 

My job is as a data scientist. I literally move data around for a living. I do exactly the kind of thing you're referring to. You could solve some problems I have with blockchain but it's far more work than things like lookup directories, certificates, and standardized REST interfaces.

 

I won't swear up and down that there's not anything anywhere that blockchain won't somehow solve, but for 99% of the use cases it's been proposed for, it's a solution in search of a problem.

You'd be easier to chat/debate with if you didn't just make up what people have said. Good luck moving forward in live whilst you watch the sector you work in go in a different direction from you.

[IronJambo]

8 hours ago, Smithee said:

 

Fair enough, but then what's the point in cryptocurrency?

You can't buy anything with it, you're at the mercy of unregulated markets and whales. 

Banks, medical companies, governments, etc don't need us buying tokens to be able to take advantage of, and develop the technology.

 

It's a virtual commodity, no more, no less. 

 

Banks and governments. They take advantage of us just fine the way they it is. They're the ones feeling the most threatened because it takes away their control. 

We can get involved or be left behind like the banks and governments want us to be. Just my opinion. 

[graygo]

5 hours ago, Led Tasso said:

 

From that article that @Smitheequoted:

 

So in other words, Swift had a non-blockchain solution that did the same thing.

 

Notably, that article (from 2018) goes on to mention stablecoins, something I find funny because their stability and value are derived from their peg to the "fiat currency" that gets so derided by blockchain enthusiasts. One set of those, Terra, just imploded and took out huge section of the crypto sphere with it. The one that hasn't imploded is effectively just a funny looking bank, complete with reserve assets.

 

 

Fine, whoever that is, don't listen to them.

SWIFT have a non Blockchain solution that does the same thing much slower and certainly not for the same cost although it's not surprising to hear SWIFT'S head of banking claim otherwise. Ripple/XRP/xRapid (I don't claim to understand exactly how it all works) is being trialled by hundreds of financial institutions, maybe they should stop those trials because you say it can't work.

[graygo]

If nothing else maybe this'll be the kick up the arse SWIFT need to produce an instantaneous payment system, they must make a fortune by holding onto funds before a transfer takes place, again despite what the head of SWIFT banking says.

 

 

[Unknown user]

45 minutes ago, IronJambo said:

Banks and governments. They take advantage of us just fine the way they it is. They're the ones feeling the most threatened because it takes away their control. 

We can get involved or be left behind like the banks and governments want us to be. Just my opinion. 

You're completely missing the point.

Banks and governments control finance, its quite important to them. If you think they're away to let go of that control with a smile and a wave then good luck to you.

[ericthepen]

On 30/05/2022 at 20:42, IronJambo said:

You speak like all crypto is a scam. Like it or not, it's the future. 

 

Blockchain will be invaluable. We base our money on gold reserves. Lumps of metal 🤦. Lumps of metal props up our economy because we were told it's valuable, get your head around that.

Gold is valuable, as it has many unique properties other metals or materials do not have.

[IronJambo]

11 minutes ago, Smithee said:

You're completely missing the point.

Banks and governments control finance, its quite important to them. If you think they're away to let go of that control with a smile and a wave then good luck to you.

They control their threatened antiquated systems that favour them and their friends.

[graygo]

5 minutes ago, ericthepen said:

Gold is valuable, as it has many unique properties other metals or materials do not have.

So has Mercury, in fact most metals and materials have unique properties.

[graygo]

1 minute ago, IronJambo said:

They control their threatened antiquated systems that favour them and their friends.

Correct, unfortunately that's what will possibly win the day though.

[jambo89]

Have avoided this thread as I am bitter I never bought any when I could've. Me and a friend started mining it back in 2013 from a laptop but stopped when we got 1/4 of a bit coin after 4 weeks. We talked about buying some, but at £75 per bitcoin, thought it was too much. Bitter is and understatement

[ericthepen]

Just now, graygo said:

So has Mercury, in fact most metals and materials have unique properties.

Golds properties are useful in a variety of ways, I daresay others are too, but I am not aware of them being so widespread, or them looking as good as formed 18ct gold.

[graygo]

Just now, ericthepen said:

Golds properties are useful in a variety of ways, I daresay others are too, but I am not aware of them being so widespread, or them looking as good as formed 18ct gold.

But none of that is what makes it the commodity that it is.

[ericthepen]

1 minute ago, graygo said:

But none of that is what makes it the commodity that it is.

Being finite in it supply does though ?

[graygo]

1 minute ago, ericthepen said:

Being finite in it supply does though ?

 

Gold isn't the rarest or even the most valuable precious metal, as @IronJambosays, it only has it's status because we're told it has.

[ericthepen]

Just now, graygo said:

 

Gold isn't the rarest or even the most valuable precious metal, as @IronJambosays, it only has it's status because we're told it has.

Of the precious metal, Rhodium, Platinum etc, it is the most workable and versatile.

[Unknown user]

12 minutes ago, graygo said:

Correct, unfortunately that's what will possibly win the day though.

They have all the power, there's no chance of them letting that slip away.

 

2 minutes ago, graygo said:

 

Gold isn't the rarest or even the most valuable precious metal, as @IronJambosays, it only has it's status because we're told it has.

 

I'd just like to add that IJ was 100% wrong in his assertion that money is backed by gold reserves. It's been half a century or more since the UK did that, so it doesn't really matter.

[graygo]

3 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

I'd just like to add that IJ was 100% wrong in his assertion that money is backed by gold reserves. It's been half a century or more since the UK did that, so it doesn't really matter.

 

A quick look at the Bank of England's website would challenge that.

 

 

[Unknown user]

4 minutes ago, graygo said:

 

A quick look at the Bank of England's website would challenge that.

 

 

 

No it wouldn't, having a central reserve isn't the same as gold backing the currency.

Look up the gold standard if you want to know more.

[Unknown user]

34 minutes ago, ericthepen said:

Of the precious metal, Rhodium, Platinum etc, it is the most workable and versatile.

It's also incredibly stable and practically indestructible.

If you find pirate treasure at the bottom of the sea, the chest will be rotten and decayed. The gold will still be gold though, untarnished.

[IronJambo]

44 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

 

 

I'd just like to add that IJ was 100% wrong in his assertion that money is backed by gold reserves. It's been half a century or more since the UK did that, so it doesn't really matter.

That's cool, I stand corrected.

 

Money is backed by nothing now then. That's probably worse.

[IronJambo]

6 minutes ago, Smithee said:

It's also incredibly stable and practically indestructible.

If you find pirate treasure at the bottom of the sea, the chest will be rotten and decayed. The gold will still be gold though, untarnished.

But what use is it to you? 

[Unknown user]

Just now, IronJambo said:

But what use is it to you? 

I didn't say it was useful, I just find it interesting, I was watching a thing about it the other night

[Unknown user]

4 minutes ago, IronJambo said:

That's cool, I stand corrected.

 

Money is backed by nothing now then. That's probably worse.

 

It's backed by the nation's economy.

 

Ignoring that though, how is cryptocurrency making the situation any better? What's that backed by?

[IronJambo]

7 minutes ago, Smithee said:

I didn't say it was useful, I just find it interesting, I was watching a thing about it the other night

Taxidermy has kept Station Jim looking dapper since 1896 and he's not made of gold.