JamboX2 Posted September 30, 2017 Share Posted September 30, 2017 If it's a minority why is the Spanish government getting their knickers in a twist about it? Because it's unconstitutional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boab Posted September 30, 2017 Share Posted September 30, 2017 Because it's unconstitutional. .....and expensive ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgiewave Posted September 30, 2017 Share Posted September 30, 2017 Ok. The vote was in 78. But that written, legally binding constitution - which underpins the governance of Spain and it's constituent nations - bans secessionist votes. In order to hold a vote like that held in Scotland Spain would need to amend it's constitution. Which would have repercussions across Spain. Why? Spanish history shows the reasons - a fear of chaos and a break down of the rule of law. Which occurred at the end of the first republic, the end of monarchy in the 1920s and the rise of Franco. The political and legal classes fear disorder. To Madrid, from what I've read, they view this as a threat to the rule of law. I think there are other ways for Catalonia to deal with this- ex-Spanish ministers and Catalan officials have said that there could have been a convention or consultation. It'll be interesting tomorrow - neither the Catalan or Spanish governments are doing the right things to me. What would you prefer them to be doing? I think the vote is only the start. Elections to get rid of the nationalist majority in the parliament and then a proper re-establishment of links and warm feeling between some Catalans and the rest of Spain is necessary. Starting with standardising education across Spain. Not all the local history based on grievances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruyff Turn Posted September 30, 2017 Share Posted September 30, 2017 I don't believe Catalonia has a case to become an Independent Country as Catalonia has never been at any point in time a Country. I believe they have the right to vote if they want. I don't believe however that Spain has to respect the outcome of that vote, but they certainly shouldn't be acting like a bunch autocratic fascists either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgiewave Posted September 30, 2017 Share Posted September 30, 2017 I don't believe Catalonia has a case to become an Independent Country as Catalonia has never been at any point in time a Country. I believe they have the right to vote if they want. I don't believe however that Spain has to respect the outcome of that vote, but they certainly shouldn't be acting like a bunch autocratic fascists either. They've closed schools and confiscated ballots. It's not exactly shooting at dawn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruyff Turn Posted September 30, 2017 Share Posted September 30, 2017 They've closed schools and confiscated ballots. It's not exactly shooting at dawn. I think any attempt to stop a vote by forcing the closure or confiscating ballots could be described as Autocratic. Surely just letting them have their vote and then ignoring the outcome would be better, No? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shanks Posted September 30, 2017 Share Posted September 30, 2017 Its never been a country so I don't understand this. Is this like Midlothian trying to have a vote to be independent of Scotland? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hueyview Posted September 30, 2017 Share Posted September 30, 2017 Its never been a country so I don't understand this. Is this like Midlothian trying to have a vote to be independent of Scotland? I was brought up to believe in Israel being a homeland by my mother's elderly relations...way back. My family being Irish backed Palestine sharing the Holyland...... If these two biblical people are to sit down together....then give the Catalans a devolved parliament........ It worked for Ulster, Wales and Scotland.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted October 1, 2017 Share Posted October 1, 2017 Its never been a country so I don't understand this. Is this like Midlothian trying to have a vote to be independent of Scotland? It was a de facto independent state. More info: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_of_Barcelona https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Aragon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rab87 Posted October 1, 2017 Author Share Posted October 1, 2017 Ugly scenes already this morning as polls open https://twitter.com/merceclara/status/914386010129223681 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboX2 Posted October 1, 2017 Share Posted October 1, 2017 I was brought up to believe in Israel being a homeland by my mother's elderly relations...way back. My family being Irish backed Palestine sharing the Holyland...... If these two biblical people are to sit down together....then give the Catalans a devolved parliament........ It worked for Ulster, Wales and Scotland.. The Catalans do have a devolved Parliament and a devolved government already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboX2 Posted October 1, 2017 Share Posted October 1, 2017 What would you prefer them to be doing? I think the vote is only the start. Elections to get rid of the nationalist majority in the parliament and then a proper re-establishment of links and warm feeling between some Catalans and the rest of Spain is necessary. Starting with standardising education across Spain. Not all the local history based on grievances. What would I have them do? Spain's government should have entered into dialogue. Or at least tried it. Rajoy should have travelled to Barcelona and offered talks on reform of the relationship. If Catalan leaders rejected these Rajoy looks consensual and open and they do not. Spain's government should perhaps also have sought an interdict from the constitutional court against a vote to provide greater justification of it's subsequent actions - or a vote in Parliament. Catalonia? The Generelitat should've tried talks too. Shouldn't have rigged each parliamentary vote on the road to this and should've tried seeking a consensus to hold a vote - or seek permission to - before unilateral constitutional sabotage. The SNP model if you like. Otherwise the reactions being born from their current course would not be happening. As for the future? No one will recognise a pro-seccession vote. But Spain's actions aren't great either. I doubt Berlin would act this way to Bavaria or Denmark with Faroe. Afterall, the German Basic Law and their constitutional court have stated secession from Germany is illegal. But conciliation is needed. Frankly - this fracturing of nation states and of the EU is concerning as it weakens the institutions of the West. But if people begin to chose to reject them the institutions of these things become irrelevant and their authority sapped. So it's a tricky balancing act. With the time I think nationalist movements will slowly fall out of favour - Brexit may be the shift here as that unravels. But the future is co-operation and shared sovereignty across borders. That should be strengthened not weakened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rab87 Posted October 1, 2017 Author Share Posted October 1, 2017 https://twitter.com/YanniKouts/status/914395661088559104 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael_bolton Posted October 1, 2017 Share Posted October 1, 2017 Whether or not you support Catalan independence (I don't care either way), the Spanish government's actions here are a disgrace. You cannot justify such a heavy-handed response to people trying to hold a vote. You have to wonder who is advising Madrid on this one. They're losing the PR war and making terrible mistakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael_bolton Posted October 1, 2017 Share Posted October 1, 2017 https://twitter.com/MStothard/status/914383185936621568 Utter madness. All for trying to vote? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlphonseCapone Posted October 1, 2017 Share Posted October 1, 2017 The Spanish state, as we know it, won't outlive me. I'll toast to the day it falls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mighty Thor Posted October 1, 2017 Share Posted October 1, 2017 Brutal scenes. It's amazing how governments think the will for self determination will just disappear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah O Posted October 1, 2017 Share Posted October 1, 2017 Embarrassing for the Spanish government and a bloody shame for the Catalan people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruyff Turn Posted October 1, 2017 Share Posted October 1, 2017 All the Spanish are doing is actually making Catalonia's case more credible than it ever was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ibrahim Tall Posted October 1, 2017 Share Posted October 1, 2017 If the referendum is 'illegal' then ignore it, don't even bother to vote no or give it any air time or recognition. What they've done by completely overreacting and using force is partly justify the 'oppression' myth and likely increased further the support for that independence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John mcCartney Posted October 1, 2017 Share Posted October 1, 2017 They've closed schools and confiscated ballots. It's not exactly shooting at dawn. disgusting generalisation of whats going on over there shocking footage of those government sponsored cavemen on the grauniads site........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cade Posted October 1, 2017 Share Posted October 1, 2017 https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2017/oct/01/catalan-independence-referendum-spain-catalonia-vote-live Videos of police brutality on this feed are shocking. Spain have made a monumental erse up of this entire situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennywise Posted October 1, 2017 Share Posted October 1, 2017 Just been watching some of the videos on social media and its ****ing frightening. How that is allowed to go on in a civilised country in 2017 is shocking. Sent from my VFD 600 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tian447 Posted October 1, 2017 Share Posted October 1, 2017 Just seen a video of police using batons against people who are standing in front of them with their hands up, showing absolutely no signs of violence or any sort of aggressive behaviour. What the actual ****? How is that helping anything or anyone. Shambles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckyBatistuta Posted October 1, 2017 Share Posted October 1, 2017 Disgusting, no need for that whatsoever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tian447 Posted October 1, 2017 Share Posted October 1, 2017 Disgusting, no need for that whatsoever Exactly the one I was on about. That's how riots happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckyBatistuta Posted October 1, 2017 Share Posted October 1, 2017 Exactly the one I was on about. That's how riots happen. Brutal watching that, not one of them that I could see done anything. Guy just waded straight into the old boy, then they all thought they'd have some, sickening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckyBatistuta Posted October 1, 2017 Share Posted October 1, 2017 http://youtu.be/qLZrfDyy1us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tian447 Posted October 1, 2017 Share Posted October 1, 2017 Brutal watching that, not one of them that I could see done anything. Guy just waded straight into the old boy, then they all thought they'd have some, sickening. They all had their hands up. They were obviously well aware that they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. What gives the Police the right to straight up assault people with weapons, especially when they are doing nothing wrong? Imagine you were a tourist caught up in that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tian447 Posted October 1, 2017 Share Posted October 1, 2017 Faces covered. No rank or serial number displayed. No accountability for the individual(s) involved. They don?t **** about on the continent do they. There does seem to be numbers on the back of their gear. Not that that helps obviously. Disgusting behaviour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Z Posted October 1, 2017 Share Posted October 1, 2017 Just watched live video of the Spanish Vice President speaking about the incidents today. I am decent in Spanish so I picked up that she said the police acted with legality, professionalism, and in a proportional manner. Seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckyBatistuta Posted October 1, 2017 Share Posted October 1, 2017 Just watched live video of the Spanish Vice President speaking about the incidents today. I am decent in Spanish so I picked up that she said the police acted with legality, professionalism, and in a proportional manner. Seriously. What a crock of shit Assaulting pensioners, women and children Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulysses Posted October 1, 2017 Share Posted October 1, 2017 Just watched live video of the Spanish Vice President speaking about the incidents today. I am decent in Spanish so I picked up that she said the police acted with legality, professionalism, and in a proportional manner. Seriously. A member of the Knesset who is observing the elections has claimed that she saw police using rubber bullets against unarmed protesters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Z Posted October 1, 2017 Share Posted October 1, 2017 Yeah, we've been watching the Catalan TV coverage here via the internet. Saw guys being interviewed with huge bruises from the rubber bullet impacts. Someone has apparently lost an eye. That woman had some pretty Orwellian redefinitions for the words "derechos" (rights) and "democrac?a" as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulysses Posted October 1, 2017 Share Posted October 1, 2017 Firefighters form a human chain to protect voters from riot police. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/catalonia-independence-referendum-vote-protests-barcelona-madrid-police-guardia-civil-a7976556.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown user Posted October 1, 2017 Share Posted October 1, 2017 Firefighters form a human chain to protect voters from riot police. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/catalonia-independence-referendum-vote-protests-barcelona-madrid-police-guardia-civil-a7976556.html Good lads, well played. The police here are acting like government troops, someone needs to look out for the safety of the people. People have the right to their say and the right to protest. It's awful that it's come to this but well done to the firemen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckyBatistuta Posted October 1, 2017 Share Posted October 1, 2017 Good lads, well played. The police here are acting like government troops, someone needs to look out for the safety of the people. People have the right to their say and the right to protest. It's awful that it's come to this but well done to the firemen. If I lived there and was against breaking away, this would be pushing me the other way seeing this brutality in front of my eyes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
niblick1874 Posted October 1, 2017 Share Posted October 1, 2017 What's the separatists stance on the EU? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cade Posted October 1, 2017 Share Posted October 1, 2017 Catalans are for the EU Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulysses Posted October 1, 2017 Share Posted October 1, 2017 Good lads, well played. The police here are acting like government troops, someone needs to look out for the safety of the people. People have the right to their say and the right to protest. It's awful that it's come to this but well done to the firemen. It's a daft move by the Spanish government. All it's doing is feeding into a sense of grievance or victimhood, which will only benefit the separatists. It won't play well in a lot of Spain, where there are plenty of places with memories of oppression by the right. Not clever at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJGJ Posted October 1, 2017 Share Posted October 1, 2017 Just what the Spanish government is doing is anyone's guess. Their actions are creating a situation and fanning the flames of separatism never mind lowering Spain's worldwide image. It was a vote with no power and had they let it go ahead it would simply have been a news story of limited interest but now it becomes a story to be read throughout the world and the playing behind closed doors of Barcelona's match today will simply increase the size of the story. There will be a hardening of views and even those opposed will be unhappy at much of what is taking place. Can you imagine what would have happened in Scotland if the UK government had taken such actions ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennywise Posted October 1, 2017 Share Posted October 1, 2017 Firefighters form a human chain to protect voters from riot police. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/catalonia-independence-referendum-vote-protests-barcelona-madrid-police-guardia-civil-a7976556.html Fire fighters getting a doing now Take a look at @estelada's Tweet: https://twitter.com/estelada/status/914484418110205952?s=09 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King prawn Posted October 1, 2017 Share Posted October 1, 2017 Those videos make for uncomfortable viewing. How any human placed in a position to protect citizens can hit a pensioner in the face with a stick and drag another across concrete is beyond me. At least the fireman are trying to help like an emergency service should be doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruyff Turn Posted October 1, 2017 Share Posted October 1, 2017 What a crock of shit Assaulting pensioners, women and children Disgusting behaviour. Unacceptable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taffin Posted October 1, 2017 Share Posted October 1, 2017 Those videos are absolutely disgraceful. Police brutality and cowardice. Helmets on, body protection and batons beating crap out of people of all ages for trying to have a voice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N Lincs Jambo Posted October 1, 2017 Share Posted October 1, 2017 They all had their hands up. They were obviously well aware that they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. What gives the Police the right to straight up assault people with weapons, especially when they are doing nothing wrong? Imagine you were a tourist caught up in that? I've had the "pleasure" of encountering the Spanish cops twice: 1st at Atletico Madrid v Hearts and 2nd Champions League with Man U (very much as a neutral). They absolutely love knocking the shit out of people for no reason. Would love to see the scum get a taste of their own medicine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deesidejambo Posted October 1, 2017 Share Posted October 1, 2017 I've had the "pleasure" of encountering the Spanish cops twice: 1st at Atletico Madrid v Hearts and 2nd Champions League with Man U (very much as a neutral). They absolutely love knocking the shit out of people for no reason. Would love to see the scum get a taste of their own medicine. Indeed my pals missus is Catalan and they are just back from a visit there. When I asked about why the Police violence, he simply replied "Its Spain". Apparently the Police there deal with most civil disturbance issues in the same violent way and this response was in keeping with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shanks Posted October 1, 2017 Share Posted October 1, 2017 The footage is shocking. Beating up old men and women. ****ing cowards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tazio Posted October 1, 2017 Share Posted October 1, 2017 So what did you do at work today daddy? Well I battered some unarmed people shitless for daring to exercise their vote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redm Posted October 1, 2017 Share Posted October 1, 2017 These videos are unbelievable. Knew it wouldn't pass completely peacefully but you don't think you'll see the police kicking shit out of young and old, or attacking fire fighters. It's completely outrageous behaviour. All because people want to exercise their right to vote. This isn't a situation you send police to fix. It's one for government and conditional lawyers. It's disgusting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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