Brexit Deal agreed ( updated )

[Mikey1874]

No idea what is happening 

 

 

[SectionDJambo]

This General Election, when it eventually comes along, is going to be the most venomous in living memory. The UK has been overcome by polarised nutters who bang on about democracy, yet have no interest in either telling the truth or listening to the other side of the argument. Tactics designed not to be transparent, but rather to hide from any scrutiny.

Putting aside any desire to remain or leave for now, why are the current government so afraid of a confirmatory referendum or a proper debate over the current agreement? Why the sudden rush after so much inactivity after Johnston won the PM position? Have these tactics been put in his head by his mate Trump, who proudly said May had ignored his advice on Brexit?

Can you imagine, how Merry a Christmas it will be, watching and listening to this mad circus that has engulfed our country, if they agree to hold it now.

[Brighton Jambo]

9 hours ago, Smithee said:

 

Monstrous as in disgusting, immoral, corrupt, broken, dishonest, abusive.

 

Scotland couldn't govern herself better than that shower of utter ****s?

 

Please!

As people on here know I am dead against independence.  However even I will concede that Scotland would do a better job than the current government in Westminster.  However note my use of the word current, this is an unprecedented, literally, situation that won’t last forever.  These politicians at the heart of it won’t be around for much longer whereas independence would be forever.  

 

Then when I take a look at how scotland is performing on key devolved issues such as NHS, education,  crime, infrastructure projects it’s simply not good enough for me to conclude that Scotland would prosper independently.

 

My view is that a short term onmishambles, cluster**** of a government trying to deliver a ridiculous Brexit decision is not good enough reason to change the direction of Scotland forever. 

[Boris]

2 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said:

As people on here know I am dead against independence.  However even I will concede that Scotland would do a better job than the current government in Westminster.  However note my use of the word current, this is an unprecedented, literally, situation that won’t last forever.  These politicians at the heart of it won’t be around for much longer whereas independence would be forever.  

 

Then when I take a look at how scotland is performing on key devolved issues such as NHS, education,  crime, infrastructure projects it’s simply not good enough for me to conclude that Scotland would prosper independently.

 

My view is that a short term onmishambles, cluster**** of a government trying to deliver a ridiculous Brexit decision is not good enough reason to change the direction of Scotland forever. 

 

Those would be the responsibility of the Scottish Government.  Just as this Brexit "omnishambles" is the responsibility of the UK Government.

 

If the current UK Government's inability to function properly is not good reason to change direction, then surely, by the same logic, the current Scottish Government's record is no reason against independence either?

[Unknown user]

Just now, Brighton Jambo said:

As people on here know I am dead against independence.  However even I will concede that Scotland would do a better job than the current government in Westminster.  However note my use of the word current, this is an unprecedented, literally, situation that won’t last forever.  These politicians at the heart of it won’t be around for much longer whereas independence would be forever.  

 

Then when I take a look at how scotland is performing on key devolved issues such as NHS, education,  crime, infrastructure projects it’s simply not good enough for me to conclude that Scotland would prosper independently.

 

My view is that a short term onmishambles, cluster**** of a government trying to deliver a ridiculous Brexit decision is not good enough reason to change the direction of Scotland forever. 

 

Interesting. The monstrous cluster**** that is Westminster is a temporary state of affairs that will change. But Holyrood, not even in the same league of nasty ineptitude, won't?

Isn't Scotland's direction being changed forever against its will just now?

[Justin Z]

Very nice picking apart of a piece of motivated reasoning, you two.

[Brighton Jambo]

3 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

Those would be the responsibility of the Scottish Government.  Just as this Brexit "omnishambles" is the responsibility of the UK Government.

 

If the current UK Government's inability to function properly is not good reason to change direction, then surely, by the same logic, the current Scottish Government's record is no reason against independence either?

Yes but on these particular topics it’s nothing unprecedented that’s causing the issues it’s been a SNP led government for however many years and things are simply not improving.

 

some people say that when Scotland gets independence there’s no guarantee it will be an SNP led government in the future as we could vote for whoever we want (true) but I think that is deliberately disingenuous and said to ease the fears of no voters.  If the SNP succeed in securing Scottish independence my view is they will be voted into run Scottish government for years and years to come.  I don’t want that.

 

anyway if there is a second referendum I hope the conversation turns to these matters as a decision of this magnitude should not be a single issues debate (brexit) 

[redjambo]

4 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

Very nice picking apart of a piece of motivated reasoning, you two.

 

Surely almost all reasoning is "motivated", designed to prove a particular point. I may disagree with Brighton Jambo's views on independence (albeit formerly agreeing with them) but he does generally express his views in a reasonable manner.

[Brighton Jambo]

8 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

Interesting. The monstrous cluster**** that is Westminster is a temporary state of affairs that will change. But Holyrood, not even in the same league of nasty ineptitude, won't?

Isn't Scotland's direction being changed forever against its will just now?

To your last point Yes which is why although I don’t want one I can see the justification for a second referendum. 

 

The problem is I have seen Westminster governments create a thriving vibrant UK in the past (not everyone will agree with that statement but that’s my view) but since devolution I would not say that I have seen Scotland flourish the way it should (as per the key areas listed above).

 

Simply put I don’t see the evidence that’s Scotland  would thrive  outside UK and as toxic as Westminster is right now over brexit that is not enough reason to vote for independence, in my view.  

[Boris]

2 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said:

Yes but on these particular topics it’s nothing unprecedented that’s causing the issues it’s been a SNP led government for however many years and things are simply not improving.

 

some people say that when Scotland gets independence there’s no guarantee it will be an SNP led government in the future as we could vote for whoever we want (true) but I think that is deliberately disingenuous and said to ease the fears of no voters.  If the SNP succeed in securing Scottish independence my view is they will be voted into run Scottish government for years and years to come.  I don’t want that.

 

anyway if there is a second referendum I hope the conversation turns to these matters as a decision of this magnitude should not be a single issues debate (brexit) 

 

Yet we have to put up with Tory administration after Tory administration thanks to FPTP?

 

As poor as the Scottish Government may be doing on the issues you mention, one could argue that if fully independent they may be able to make different decisions, instead of mitigating Westminster policies that aren't wanted in Scotland.

 

Genuine question, how does Scotland compare vis a vis rUK in respect of Health, education etc?

[Unknown user]

3 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said:

Yes but on these particular topics it’s nothing unprecedented that’s causing the issues it’s been a SNP led government for however many years and things are simply not improving.

 

some people say that when Scotland gets independence there’s no guarantee it will be an SNP led government in the future as we could vote for whoever we want (true) but I think that is deliberately disingenuous and said to ease the fears of no voters.  If the SNP succeed in securing Scottish independence my view is they will be voted into run Scottish government for years and years to come.  I don’t want that.

 

anyway if there is a second referendum I hope the conversation turns to these matters as a decision of this magnitude should not be a single issues debate (brexit) 

 

I can tell you here and now that I'll vote snp in the hope that Scotland is freed but I'm no snp man, they wouldn't be expecting my vote post independence. 

 

Anyway, it makes no sense to me how that relatively benign prospect is more scary to you than the prospect of the nasty english right being in power for the foreseeable. 

[Boris]

1 minute ago, Smithee said:

 

I can tell you here and now that I'll vote snp in the hope that Scotland is freed but I'm no snp man, they wouldn't be expecting my vote post independence. 

 

 

I'm on that bus too!

[redjambo]

1 minute ago, Smithee said:

 

I can tell you here and now that I'll vote snp in the hope that Scotland is freed but I'm no snp man, they wouldn't be expecting my vote post independence. 

 

Anyway, it makes no sense to me how that relatively benign prospect is more scary to you than the prospect of the nasty english right being in power for the foreseeable. 

 

Me too, by the way. I'll be voting for independence, but post-independence I'll be voting Green or Lib Dem (the latter is anathema to many on here but I'll live with that ).

[Brighton Jambo]

8 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

Yet we have to put up with Tory administration after Tory administration thanks to FPTP?

 

As poor as the Scottish Government may be doing on the issues you mention, one could argue that if fully independent they may be able to make different decisions, instead of mitigating Westminster policies that aren't wanted in Scotland.

 

Genuine question, how does Scotland compare vis a vis rUK in respect of Health, education etc?

Probably comparable and in some cases marginally better.  But in my mind the level of upheaval, unknowns and risk associated with independence means that’s not enough for me to want to change the status quo.  Things would have to be mikes better than rUK for me to consider it worth the risks.

[ri Alban]

49 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said:

As people on here know I am dead against independence.  However even I will concede that Scotland would do a better job than the current government in Westminster.  However note my use of the word current, this is an unprecedented, literally, situation that won’t last forever.  These politicians at the heart of it won’t be around for much longer whereas independence would be forever.  

 

Then when I take a look at how scotland is performing on key devolved issues such as NHS, education,  crime, infrastructure projects it’s simply not good enough for me to conclude that Scotland would prosper independently.

 

My view is that a short term onmishambles, cluster**** of a government trying to deliver a ridiculous Brexit decision is not good enough reason to change the direction of Scotland forever. 

If I can use your own words, "Current government" We can elect someone else post Independence, it's not a coronation for the SNP.

Edited October 24, 2019 by ri Alban

[Unknown user]

5 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

If I can use your own words, "Current government" We can elect someone else post Independence, it's not an election for the SNP.

 

Exactly. 

Meanwhile, we have the house emptying when a Scottish mp stands to talk, because she dared to ensure the law was being followed. 

That place should be emptying when Johnson stands up but the boorish, incompetent **** still has respect from those other boorish, incompetent ****.

There's your Westminster, it gives not a single **** about us.

Edited October 24, 2019 by Smithee

[Boris]

15 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said:

Probably comparable and in some cases marginally better.  But in my mind the level of upheaval, unknowns and risk associated with independence means that’s not enough for me to want to change the status quo.  Things would have to be mikes better than rUK for me to consider it worth the risks.

 

Fair enough, and understandable.

 

Personally, I don't think independence would make Scotland some economic powerhouse overnight, indeed I suspect that the initial road forward could be potentially difficult.

 

Equally, staying in a right wing, deregulated economy as espoused by Johnson/ERG etc seems equally, if not more, perilous.

 

For me, at least, it's not simply an economic decision though.  Politics, society, dare I say progressiveness all come into it and I can't help but feel Scotland is being held back by Westminster conservatism (small c). 

 

Finally, again for me, it's about self respect and a bit of dignity.  Pretty sure we are big, old and ugly enough to make our own decisions now, and, if independent there is no one else to blame other than ourselves.  It would, imo, be a massive boost to the collective national psyche.  Who knows what may flourish from it in the generations to come?

[Justin Z]

34 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

Surely almost all reasoning is "motivated", designed to prove a particular point. I may disagree with Brighton Jambo's views on independence (albeit formerly agreeing with them) but he does generally express his views in a reasonable manner.

 

Motivated reasoning as a term doesn't mean being unreasonable per se, just that you're allowing your own preconceived notions and biases to guide your conclusions regardless of the factual circumstances you're presented with.

 

Everybody does it, it's nothing shameful or wrong--it's very human. The double standard going on was also immediately seized upon and highlighted by Smithee and Boris, which is a good thing.

[jack D and coke]

52 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said:

As people on here know I am dead against independence.  However even I will concede that Scotland would do a better job than the current government in Westminster.  However note my use of the word current, this is an unprecedented, literally, situation that won’t last forever.  These politicians at the heart of it won’t be around for much longer whereas independence would be forever.  

 

Then when I take a look at how scotland is performing on key devolved issues such as NHS, education,  crime, infrastructure projects it’s simply not good enough for me to conclude that Scotland would prosper independently.

 

My view is that a short term onmishambles, cluster**** of a government trying to deliver a ridiculous Brexit decision is not good enough reason to change the direction of Scotland forever. 

Ireland has a smaller population. An older population. Nowhere near the resources of Scotland and has a $100billion larger economy. 
Scotland couldn’t do it though eh....
We’d be the first country on planet Earth to beg to be let back into a Union where our decisions are all made for us regardless of whether they’re any good for us or not. 
Honestly mate give yourself a good cornette for that. 

Get off your knees. 

[ri Alban]

2 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

Ireland has a smaller population. An older population. Nowhere near the resources of Scotland and has a $100billion larger economy. 
Scotland couldn’t do it though eh....
We’d be the first country on planet Earth to beg to be let back into a Union where our decisions are all made for us regardless of whether they’re any good for us or not. 
Honestly mate give yourself a good cornette for that. 

Get off your knees. 

Look at Norway. We're bigger and have more resources. Yet!?, you know the rest, bud.

[Unknown user]

I'd also ask if there's any reason to believe Westminster's going to get better when it's been a downward race for years.

Are the english ruling classes going to go back to inconvenient practices like telling the truth, being held accountable, governing responsibly when they arent held to account by the electorate for ignoring them?

They'll be voted in again and they'll carry on with their shit, and we'll deserve it because we shrug our shoulders and go "well, politicians lie!" and vote for the same ones again and again.

 

We need change, away from this shit.

[Brighton Jambo]

24 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

I can tell you here and now that I'll vote snp in the hope that Scotland is freed but I'm no snp man, they wouldn't be expecting my vote post independence. 

 

Anyway, it makes no sense to me how that relatively benign prospect is more scary to you than the prospect of the nasty english right being in power for the foreseeable. 

I think the nasty right being in charge is worrying.  However I don’t see independence risk as benign.

 

In regards to future currency and impact on pensions, house prices etc, the ease or otherwise with rejoining the EU and what conditions may come with that (I.e. deficit reduction) the border situation with England etc etc.  

 

I am sure lots of you are now desperately waiting to type and tell me these things aren’t a worry and I am fear mongering but they do really concern me and I have a young family so for me it’s better the devil you know.  And yes know that makes me selfish.  

[Brighton Jambo]

12 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

Look at Norway. We're bigger and have more resources. Yet!?, you know the rest, bud.

Interesting that Norway aren’t in the EU, perhaps that’s a factor?!

 

16 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

Ireland has a smaller population. An older population. Nowhere near the resources of Scotland and has a $100billion larger economy. 
Scotland couldn’t do it though eh....
We’d be the first country on planet Earth to beg to be let back into a Union where our decisions are all made for us regardless of whether they’re any good for us or not. 
Honestly mate give yourself a good cornette for that. 

Get off your knees. 

You are always the first to turn the discussion personal and put words in people’s mouths. We have been having a decent debate on a topic and you take that shitty attitude as always. 

 

Where did I say Scotland couldn’t do it? I just personally haven’t seen enough evidence that’s it’s worth the risks as I perceive them.  

 

Anyway why don’t you just let those of your fellow yes voters who make a reasoned and coherent argument carry on.  You are just letting your side down again.

[Brighton Jambo]

31 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

If I can use your own words, "Current government" We can elect someone else post Independence, it's not a coronation for the SNP.

See my post above I just don’t believe that will happen. I believe if they are successful they will form the government for many years to come.  

[Unknown user]

11 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said:

I think the nasty right being in charge is worrying.  However I don’t see independence risk as benign.

 

In regards to future currency and impact on pensions, house prices etc, the ease or otherwise with rejoining the EU and what conditions may come with that (I.e. deficit reduction) the border situation with England etc etc.  

 

I am sure lots of you are now desperately waiting to type and tell me these things aren’t a worry and I am fear mongering but they do really concern me and I have a young family so for me it’s better the devil you know.  And yes know that makes me selfish.  

 

Lots of me?

[Justin Z]

7 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said:

I am sure lots of you are now desperately waiting to type and tell me these things aren’t a worry and I am fear mongering but they do really concern me and I have a young family so for me it’s better the devil you know.  And yes know that makes me selfish.  

 

All the things you just listed in this post are legitimate concerns, and I'd hope a road map for independence would address them. Likewise, it's easy for me, a single, childfree person, not to worry--especially when I have the motivator of: if Scotland had voted for independence in 2014, I wouldn't be worried about getting chucked out if I can't find a job by March.

 

Your position though hasn't consistently been "I just can't take the risk", it's been stuff like assuming Westminster can turn around while the Scottish government cannot (and while begging the question that the Scottish government have done an overall poor job with devolution without really establishing it in an objective way or in a way that would tie the outcomes from a crippled, devolved government to a fully sovereign, independent one).

[Unknown user]

If independence was such a disaster, we could always vote to get the band back together and rejoin the UK.

[Brighton Jambo]

7 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

Lots of me?

Not sure I understand but if your point is that I’m putting myself ahead of the greater good then yes I am.  I am voting for what I truly believed is right for me and my family.  

 

If I believed independence would give my children a better future then I would vote for that.  

[Brighton Jambo]

15 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

All the things you just listed in this post are legitimate concerns, and I'd hope a road map for independence would address them. Likewise, it's easy for me, a single, childfree person, not to worry--especially when I have the motivator of: if Scotland had voted for independence in 2014, I wouldn't be worried about getting chucked out if I can't find a job by March.

 

Your position though hasn't consistently been "I just can't take the risk", it's been stuff like assuming Westminster can turn around while the Scottish government cannot (and while begging the question that the Scottish government have done an overall poor job with devolution without really establishing it in an objective way or in a way that would tie the outcomes from a crippled, devolved government to a fully sovereign, independent one).

That’s a fair challenge.  I suppose me me I have seen a Westminster government having a positive impact on UK and believe it could again whereas I am just not yet convinced the Scottish government has had much of a positive impact and so it’s more notional in my mind and notional for me equals risk.  

Edited October 24, 2019 by Brighton Jambo

[SectionDJambo]

Must be a bit of a conflict for the Conservatives in Westminster.

By definition they need to keep the Union together.

If Scotland became independent, the lack of Scottish seats would give them an outstanding chance of never being out of office.

Maybe they’d be quite happy to pretend they want us as part of the UK, but really would be happy to let us go, whilst blaming somebody else.

Just like they’re ready to blame the EU for any fallout from a no deal Brexit.

[Justin Z]

1 minute ago, Brighton Jambo said:

That’s a fair challenge.  I suppose me me I have seen a Westminster government having a positive impact on UK and believe it could again whereas I am just not yet convinced the Scottish government has had much of a positive impact and so it’s more notional in my mind and notional for me equals risk.  

 

Having learned all I could about the political situation here, I don't see where a Westminster government has ever had a positive impact on Scotland--relative to England, at least--in 312 years. We don't need to go nearly that far back, either--we can check in during the 70s and 80s and the destruction of industry up here for the benefit of neoliberal moneychangers, or we can of course just stay with the present. In any event, the missing link in your analysis is how Scotland has consistently been forced to fight its own corner with a much larger neighbour dominating the talking points, the priorities, and the pursestrings, all whilst contributing more in revenue than it gets back. Even if Westminster were to get better, history says that really doesn't matter a bit for Scotland. As others have pointed out, similarly sized independent countries provide the history that countries that have less than Scotland does can prosper on their own just fine.

 

And getting philosophical, that's just how it will probably go--when those living "the worst of times" in this Tale of Two Countries reach a critical mass, a mass big enough to cause structural change, the relatively comfortable centrists will get dragged along. And in my view, you're likely to get dragged along to even greater prosperity than you've already enjoyed, and a greater share of the benefits than those brave enough to stick their necks out, whose lot will improve too . . . but only so much.

[jack D and coke]

21 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said:

Interesting that Norway aren’t in the EU, perhaps that’s a factor?!

 

You are always the first to turn the discussion personal and put words in people’s mouths. We have been having a decent debate on a topic and you take that shitty attitude as always. 

 

Where did I say Scotland couldn’t do it? I just personally haven’t seen enough evidence that’s it’s worth the risks as I perceive them.  

 

Anyway why don’t you just let those of your fellow yes voters who make a reasoned and coherent argument carry on.  You are just letting your side down again.

Don’t believe I’ve ever gotten personal with you. It’s in the morning I’m cranky  

Dont take it personal. 

[Brighton Jambo]

4 minutes ago, SectionDJambo said:

Must be a bit of a conflict for the Conservatives in Westminster.

By definition they need to keep the Union together.

If Scotland became independent, the lack of Scottish seats would give them an outstanding chance of never being out of office.

Maybe they’d be quite happy to pretend they want us as part of the UK, but really would be happy to let us go, whilst blaming somebody else.

Just like they’re ready to blame the EU for any fallout from a no deal Brexit.

I think under previous leaders, I.e. Cameron they would have been genuinely gutted to see the break up of UK.  Under BJ I think you may be right as his thinking is so short termist it might be a price worth paying for power.

[Brighton Jambo]

Just now, jack D and coke said:

Don’t believe I’ve ever gotten personal with you. It’s in the morning I’m cranky  

Dont take it personal. 

Haha fair enough.  

[Unknown user]

8 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said:

Not sure I understand but if your point is that I’m putting myself ahead of the greater good then yes I am.  I am voting for what I truly believed is right for me and my family.  

 

If I believed independence would give my children a better future then I would vote for that.  

 

I didn't like the "lots of you" in a reply to me, I speak for myself, no one else. I'm not one of those snp monsters under the bed, I'm not interested in partisan politics at all, I've voted against the snp. 

 

I do get your overall stance though, it's the birthplace of conservatism - change might be a disaster. To me, it just seems mental to fear that more than the obvious shitshow that's playing out in front of us.

 

 

[Justin Z]

6 minutes ago, Smithee said:

I do get your overall stance though, it's the birthplace of conservatism - change might be a disaster. To me, it just seems mental to fear that more than the obvious shitshow that's playing out in front of us.

 

The obvious shitshow plus three centuries of history plus all these other independent countries thriving in relative terms.

 

You're right, there is a certain conservative ethos to making excuses for the status quo whilst not giving the same consideration to change.

[Justin Z]

The other pitfall of risk-averse thinking, and of letting fear of the unknown rule your life, is the tendency to always assume that changing the status quo will be what may lead to a worse outcome. There is just as much danger in keeping the status quo. An English view:

 

The London Economic: Boris' Brexit deal has made the case for Scotland's independence

 

One of the central arguments against independence in 2014 was that Scotland would suffer economically and there would be no guarantees that the country could re-enter the EU. Now Scotland is going to suffer economically, as the UK takes a 6% hit on GDP under Johnson’s deal through no fault of the Scottish electorate or government.

 

If Northern Ireland can remain in the customs union after Brexit, why couldn’t an independent Scotland? Regulatory alignment already exists, but post-Brexit Britain will diverge from the EU and the further Scotland goes along that path the harder it will be to go back.

. . .

Will there be pain? Yes. Scotland will take an economic hit and suffer the social ramifications that brings. But that’s going to happen because of Brexit anyway. Scotland is faced with a choice: suffer for independence and EU membership or suffer for Brexit.

 

The alternative to independence is a Scotland trapped in the UK, drifting ever further from the EU and ruled by a Conservative government that has shown no regard for the wishes of the Scottish people, their history or their votes. After a few years of Brexit Britain, Scotland will want independence more than ever but will find it even harder to achieve.

[Boris]

57 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said:

Interesting that Norway aren’t in the EU, perhaps that’s a factor?!

 

 

But they do have access to the single market and customs union via EEA/EFTA membership.

 

Something that Brexit, if it is to mean Brexit(!), would preclude.

[Justin Z]

2 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

But they do have access to the single market and customs union via EEA/EFTA membership.

 

Something that Brexit, if it is to mean Brexit(!), would preclude.

 

Yep. Thanks to contradictory, ad hoc, nonsensical red lines.

[Boris]

Just now, Justin Z said:

 

Yep. Thanks to contradictory, ad hoc, nonsensical red lines.

 

Quite!

[redjambo]

1 hour ago, Justin Z said:

 

Motivated reasoning as a term doesn't mean being unreasonable per se, just that you're allowing your own preconceived notions and biases to guide your conclusions regardless of the factual circumstances you're presented with.

 

Everybody does it, it's nothing shameful or wrong--it's very human. The double standard going on was also immediately seized upon and highlighted by Smithee and Boris, which is a good thing.

 

Absolutely it doesn't mean unreasonableness. It's just that you used the phrase as if it were something to hold against BJ when, by your own admission, we all do it anyway.

 

Anyway, it looks as if I am in the mood to argue with my own shadow today. Do carry on, and I for one am appreciative of your posts.

 

[Justin Z]

Just now, redjambo said:

 

Absolutely it doesn't mean unreasonableness. It's just that you used the phrase as if it were something to hold against BJ when, by your own admission, we all do it anyway.

 

Anyway, it looks as if I am in the mood to argue with my own shadow today. Do carry on, and I for one am appreciative of your posts.

 

 

And I'm appreciative of yours!

[The Real Maroonblood]

53 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

The obvious shitshow plus three centuries of history plus all these other independent countries thriving in relative terms.

 

You're right, there is a certain conservative ethos to making excuses for the status quo whilst not giving the same consideration to change.

Excellent post.

[Brighton Jambo]

It’s natural not to give the same consideration to change as to the status quo when things are going well - why rock the boat.  In my own personal case that is the situation and I worked bloody hard for years to make it so and so selfish or otherwise that’s what I want.  

Equally for others who for whom life is hard I can see why change may seem so appealing and is worth the ‘risk’.

 

What I would say is I do not look around and see many other independent countries that make me think we absolutely must be like that and if we were life would be so much better.  Again my view.  

 

There are some people who want change for the greater good and betterment of others beyond themselves and their family.  I admire these people but truthfully it’s not me.  I would sell my soul if I thought it would give me kids a better future!  

[Justin Z]

26 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said:

It’s natural not to give the same consideration to change as to the status quo when things are going well - why rock the boat.

 

Yeah, certainly not saying it's not natural to do that, 'cause it totally is. Same as motivated reasoning. Both are logically fallacious and prone to giving you worse outcomes, because they prevent us from giving a comprehensive rational treatment to our thoughts and opinions.

 

As for the rest, I don't personally begrudge anybody taking your tack--looking after oneself and one's family, first and foremost, is something I could never quibble with.

[ri Alban]

2 hours ago, Brighton Jambo said:

See my post above I just don’t believe that will happen. I believe if they are successful they will form the government for many years to come.  

Believe?  So it's Brexit party forever is it?

[ri Alban]

1 hour ago, Boris said:

 

But they do have access to the single market and customs union via EEA/EFTA membership.*

 

Something that Brexit, if it is to mean Brexit(!), would preclude.

*Is where I'd like Scotland to be.

[gjcc]

57 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

Believe?  So it's Brexit party forever is it?

   True. I don’t think I know anyone that intend to vote SNP in an independent Scotland. Likely that the voters will return to more traditional parties. 

[jack D and coke]

1 hour ago, Brighton Jambo said:

It’s natural not to give the same consideration to change as to the status quo when things are going well - why rock the boat.  In my own personal case that is the situation and I worked bloody hard for years to make it so and so selfish or otherwise that’s what I want.  

Equally for others who for whom life is hard I can see why change may seem so appealing and is worth the ‘risk’.

 

What I would say is I do not look around and see many other independent countries that make me think we absolutely must be like that and if we were life would be so much better.  Again my view.  

 

There are some people who want change for the greater good and betterment of others beyond themselves and their family.  I admire these people but truthfully it’s not me.  I would sell my soul if I thought it would give me kids a better future!  

Whilst I totally get where you’re coming from with regards protecting what you have, how many other European countries have you lived and worked in? To make the assertion that none are better than here. 
Im not being smart in any way btw it’s a genuine question. 

[Brighton Jambo]

54 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

Whilst I totally get where you’re coming from with regards protecting what you have, how many other European countries have you lived and worked in? To make the assertion that none are better than here. 
Im not being smart in any way btw it’s a genuine question. 

I have worked abroad but only for about 18 months in Germany and they aren’t a small country so not really a comparison! It’s more a perception I will admit that. For example some best friends of mine live in Denmark and on paper they have a great country but the tax levels are not something that would ever be agreed to here so I don’t believe that or even a Scandinavian model would be accepted.  I also have family all across Spain and Portugal and both counties have been on their knees for years.  

 

The point is I don’t know for certain but I also don’t see or hear  of many countries who have it so much better then we do in Scotland in regards to standards of living and economic models.  For me to understand The independence rationale better it would be good to have a couple of examples where people could say that would be our aspiration.

 

maybe one would be New Zealand.  They seem to have a lot right.   But, and this is another can of worms, they are not bound by things such as the Euro or EU so are truly independent.... 

 

P.s.  just thought I have a mate who lives in Geneva and he thinks the Swiss really have their shit together.  Again though would Scottish people accept that kind of economy and economic model, i don’t think so.  Maybe I’m wrong on that. 

Edited October 24, 2019 by Brighton Jambo