Brexit Deal agreed ( updated )

[ri Alban]

6 hours ago, Nookie Bear said:

 

But another referendum will be even uglier, and also fought on lies, half-truths and assumptions.

 

I agree that many people will have had their eyes opened as to the scale of the impact Brexit will have, but do we really think that the folk who are in Brexit heartlands will take the time to reconsider the situation or will they sit there and say "nah, unemployment is still high, immigration is still high, Labour has retreated to its London base and abandoned the North and we do not see the positive influence of Europe here at all - i'm sick of it and i'm voting Leave again".

Indyref2 he means. 

[All roads lead to Gorgie]

To think a family fued like split in the Con party and a smarm offensive from Nigel Forage has landed us in this unnecessary farce. What a mess! 

[Mikey1874]

3 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

Sky data poll indicating that 54% of those surveyed would vote to stay in the EU if there were a second referendum.

 

Allowing for the usual tolerance of what is it 4-6% or something like that, all this shows is that a second vote would be as close if not closer than the first one.

 

Yet the likes of Blair think a second referendum would unite the country, if anything it'll divide the country* even more.

 

*By country I mean the whole of the UK.

 

Channel 4 got the same result from a recent poll of 20,000 people. 

 

But analysis suggests there hasn't been much change since referendum. Polls are different to votes. The difference is young people polled didn't vote.  

[joondalupjambo]

As a staunch Nationalist saw this coming a mile off.  We had our chance and blew it so we will just have to suck it up now, England's lap dogs.

[ri Alban]

9 minutes ago, joondalupjambo said:

As a staunch Nationalist saw this coming a mile off.  We had our chance and blew it so we will just have to suck it up now, England's lap dogs.

That will be shining bright. The SNP should run on an indepedence mandate when this GE comes.  Folk are sick of referenda, so they say. So let's bypass it and go for broke. 

Edited November 15, 2018 by ri Alban

[joondalupjambo]

6 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

That will be shining bright. The SNP should run on an indepedence mandate when this GE comes.  Folk are sick of referenda, so they say. So let's bypass it and go for broke. 

Think that is what I am saying   I know last one was a Indy ref but it was in our hands.

We could have got Indy a couple of years ago via that route and blew it, now we suck the milk from the Mama's teet.

Yeah let's go full hog Indy now.

[...a bit disco]

 

Faisal Islam‏Verified account @faisalislam 28m28 minutes ago

New @SkyData snap poll:

 

Of the three Brexit outcomes Theresa May says are available, would you prefer a) her deal, b) no deal or c) no Brexit?

 

No Brexit 54%

 

No deal 32%

 

Her deal 14%

 

https://interactive.news.sky.com/BREXIT1_151118.pdf …

 

[...a bit disco]

iain watson‏Verified account @iainjwatson 2m2 minutes ago

I am told PM isnt calling the 5pm press conference because of a confidence vote has been triggered - she will be arguing for her deal

[Jambo-Jimbo]

25 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

Channel 4 got the same result from a recent poll of 20,000 people. 

 

But analysis suggests there hasn't been much change since referendum. Polls are different to votes. The difference is young people polled didn't vote.  

 

Yeh, I've heard this before, that many of the young didn't vote in the original referendum but would vote now.

 

Well all I have to say is, get off your fecking arse and use your vote, a vote which hundreds of thousands of young men gave their lives for in 2 world wars.

 

P.S. Not having a go at you, but it does my heid in when people moan about the result but couldn't be bothered to vote in the first place, they had their chance and choose not to use it.

[Mikey1874]

21 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

That will be shining bright. The SNP should run on an indepedence mandate when this GE comes.  Folk are sick of referenda, so they say. So let's bypass it and go for broke. 

 

15 minutes ago, joondalupjambo said:

Think that is what I am saying   I know last one was a Indy ref but it was in our hands.

We could have got Indy a couple of years ago via that route and blew it, now we suck the milk from the Mama's teet.

Yeah let's go full hog Indy now.

 

Agree with this

 

Though you might benefit from (one) referendum on the final deal. Divided country and all that. 

[Mikey1874]

2 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

Yeh, I've heard this before, that many of the young didn't vote in the original referendum but would vote now.

 

Well all I have to say is, get off your fecking arse and use your vote, a vote which hundreds of thousands of young men gave their lives for in 2 world wars.

 

P.S. Not having a go at you, but it does my heid in when people moan about the result but couldn't be bothered to vote in the first place, they had their chance and choose not to use it.

 

Yes

 

You make the point well. All this talk of Brexit being a betrayal of the young. No, the young betrayed us by not voting. 

Edited November 15, 2018 by Mikey1874

[ri Alban]

Right! It's OK for the Tories to have another go at this with a new Brexiteer leader because they didn't have their way. But the population can't. Nice one. 

[Jambo-Jimbo]

1 minute ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

Yes

 

You make the point well. All this talk of Brexit being a betrayal of the young. No, the young betrayed us by not voting. 

 

The young betrayed themselves by their own apathy.

No sense blaming the old when many of the young couldn't be bothered to vote in the first place.

But we get this after general elections as well, many people wishing that they'd voted because the result wasn't to their liking, spilled milk springs to mind.

 

 

[Don Dan]

May is sticking to her guns.

[joondalupjambo]

Cannot believe it she is in complete denial at the press conference!!

[manaliveits105]

once in a generation thank you

[AlimOzturk]

3 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

The young betrayed themselves by their own apathy.

No sense blaming the old when many of the young couldn't be bothered to vote in the first place.

But we get this after general elections as well, many people wishing that they'd voted because the result wasn't to their liking, spilled milk springs to mind.

 

 

 

Always has been the way...older generations have always voted more than the young. Which makes no sense as it's the youngsters who have the most to lose in future generations.

 

Crazy shit. I had it installed into me when was growing up from my dad about the importance of casting a vote. 

[SwindonJambo]

8 minutes ago, Dannie Boy said:

May is sticking to her guns.

 

Whatever you think of her, it's hard not to respect her determination.  I think parliament will throw it out but she's determined to fight to the  bitter end.

[Sooperstar]

Some press conference. Hard to watch. She'll be delighted to be out of there!

[Geoff the Mince]

Capitalism has failed , time for Communism ????

[AlimOzturk]

She is a determined, hard shelled women I'll give her that. She won't sleep easy tonight. 

[Mikey1874]

 

[ri Alban]

She's Delusional 

[El Diez]

8 minutes ago, AlimOzturk said:

She is a determined, hard shelled women I'll give her that. She won't sleep easy tonight. 

 

Disagree.

 

She’ll sleep like a baby. She’s clearly not right in the head.

 

[Victorian]

Brutal.     WTF was that cobblers about leadership?     She is not showing any leadership whatsoever,  mainly due to not being allowed to lead of course.

 

Just ploughing on in the face of every imaginable opposition.    There's a full week of commons debate on this vote prior to the vote.     Surely the biggest waste of time ever.

 

 

[joondalupjambo]

She knows that if there is a vote of confidence that she will most likely win. Nobody really wants her job at this moment in time so the Brexiteers have a problem in as much who do they back even if they get a chance to change.  Also new rules.  If there is a challenge and she wins then there can be no new challenge for a full year.  She appears to be going for it and will put all her money on persuading MPs to back her plan rather than ditching it.  

.

[ri Alban]

independence is coming! 

[JackLadd]

She did her best with the Eurocrat  buggers. Sturgeon wants us to be an irrelevant Eu vassal state like Finland and the Baltic republics except on worse terms with a hard border with our 80% commerce partner England. Insanity. 

[Shanks said no]

2 hours ago, Psychedelicropcircle said:

Is there a bigger gimp that David Mundell. Mays loyal dug ?

shouldn't have

Edited November 15, 2018 by The Frenchman Returns

[Mikey1874]

1 minute ago, Victorian said:

Brutal.     WTF was that cobblers about leadership?     She is not showing any leadership whatsoever,  mainly due to not being allowed to lead of course.

 

Just ploughing on in the face of every imaginable opposition.    There's a full week of commons debate on this vote prior to the vote.     Surely the biggest waste of time ever.

 

 

 

Leadership would have been agreeing a strategy and plan soon after the referendum.

 

They've just been delaying this conflict which was always there and needed resolved.

 

May just thought she could manage things having chosen a soft Brexit. 

[CJGJ]

All those who voted for Brexit should hang their heads in shame

 

To think anyone would stand alongside Boris the buffoon, Jacob 'I'm not a snob' Mogg and the other idiots who want to leave beggars belief

 

The country wants a second vote and the Brexieers will be crushed..bring it on..............the cheats and liars have been found out

 

https://news.sky.com/story/majority-of-brits-now-against-brexit-and-back-second-eu-referendum-sky-data-poll-11555078

 

 

[...a bit disco]

[Jambo-Jimbo]

47 minutes ago, AlimOzturk said:

 

Always has been the way...older generations have always voted more than the young. Which makes no sense as it's the youngsters who have the most to lose in future generations.

 

Crazy shit. I had it installed into me when was growing up from my dad about the importance of casting a vote. 

 

As did my dad with me, and that is why I can't get my head around those folks who moan and groan about the result of an election, but couldn't be bothered to vote themselves.

[Victorian]

Other than vague,  facile notions of upholding the so-called integrity of democracy (honestly said or not),   I have yet to see one credible argument against the option of having another referendum.    The legitimacy for one would be easily justified by the truly exceptional circumstances of this government's horrendous failure to deliver on the result of the last referendum.     People did not possess sufficient information to deliver an informed choice and they did not vote on the basis of the negotiations and legislation being managed so incompetently.

 

Choosing to ignore all of the exceptional circumstances and choosing to portray the referendum as a properly informed and legitimate process is deeply dishonest.      Only peddled by people who fear a different outcome.      It's corrupt logic to oppress common sense.

Edited November 15, 2018 by Victorian

[manaliveits105]

Jimmy Krankie in attention seeking mode in full pantomime dress today I see 

[...a bit disco]

Just now, manaliveits105 said:

Jimmy Krankie in attention seeking mode in full pantomime dress today I see 

 

Who?

 

Or don't we do grown-up political conversation anymore? The i8 Factor, as it were.

[Victorian]

Why so many ****ing idiots making worthless comments about the SNP?     It's not about the SNP.     **** off to another thread.

[Sir Vladimir of Romanov]

49 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

independence is coming! 

 

 

700th time Uv posted that. 

[Boab1874]

Fact is Scotland would be bankrupt on its own.S N P lies voted out.Brexit lies voted in U K. RIP

[Notts1874]

15 minutes ago, ...a bit disco said:

 

Who?

 

Or don't we do grown-up political conversation anymore? The i8 Factor, as it were.

Nicknames mate....all about nicknames

[ri Alban]

12 minutes ago, Sir Vladimir of Romanov said:

 

 

700th time Uv posted that. 

Is there a limit? 

[Don Dan]

18 minutes ago, Victorian said:

Other than vague,  facile notions of upholding the so-called integrity of democracy (honestly said or not),   I have yet to see one credible argument against the option of having another referendum.    The legitimacy for one would be easily justified by the truly exceptional circumstances of this government's horrendous failure to deliver on the result of the last referendum.     People did not possess sufficient information to deliver an informed choice and they did not vote on the basis of the negotiations and legislation being managed so incompetently.

 

Choosing to ignore all of the exceptional circumstances and choosing to portray the referendum as a properly informed and legitimate process is deeply dishonest.      Only peddled by people who fear a different outcome.      It's corrupt logic to oppress common sense.

 

The problem that exist at the moment is you would have a referendum on something that’s not yet been agreed between the two parties (UK & EU) at present the deal that’s got everyone in an uproar is only the transition deal all be it there may be aspects that could be tweaked like a definitive end date especially to the back stop. It is not the final deal. So how do you couch the question? 

Ask if the transition deal is acceptable.

ask if this transition deal needs tweaking.

ask if we leave with no deal.

ask if we stay in in retract article 50. Can we? 

ask if we wait and see the final deal, what ever that is and vote on that one. 

 

The other thing I picked up on today was that people (MPs and corespondents) were protesting against it the despite not having read or grasped the whole 500+ pages. 

[chester copperpot]

25 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

Jimmy Krankie in attention seeking mode in full pantomime dress today I see 

eh?

[ri Alban]

1 minute ago, chester copperpot said:

eh?

She took the Scottish Tories to the cleaners at Holyrood. He's bealing.

[ri Alban]

Question time is a must see tonight. 

[scott herbertson]

1 minute ago, ri Alban said:

Question time is a must see tonight. 

 

 

Panel's pretty rubbish though

 

Claire Perry MP, Stephen Kinnock MP, Liz Saville Roberts MP, Mark Serwotka and Tim Stanley.

[Victorian]

7 minutes ago, Dannie Boy said:

 

The problem that exist at the moment is you would have a referendum on something that’s not yet been agreed between the two parties (UK & EU) at present the deal that’s got everyone in an uproar is only the transition deal all be it there may be aspects that could be tweaked like a definitive end date especially to the back stop. It is not the final deal. So how do you couch the question? 

Ask if the transition deal is acceptable.

ask if this transition deal needs tweaking.

ask if we leave with no deal.

ask if we stay in in retract article 50. Can we? 

ask if we wait and see the final deal, what ever that is and vote on that one. 

 

The other thing I picked up on today was that people (MPs and corespondents) were protesting against it the despite not having read or grasped the whole 500+ pages. 

 

Perfectly valid points there and it would take time and effort to decide on the nature and timing of any possible further referendum.    There would be a lot to sort out first.     Perhaps the first thing would be for the government to accept that a significant extention to the deadline is needed to enable a wholesale rethink by parliament.

[ri Alban]

1 minute ago, scott herbertson said:

 

 

Panel's pretty rubbish though

 

Claire Perry MP, Stephen Kinnock MP, Liz Saville Roberts MP, Mark Serwotka and Tim Stanley.

The audience will be mental. 

[Victorian]

QT will be unwatchable.     Newsnight as ever.

[scott herbertson]

Seems simple to me

 

May will take her plan to the commons (beating off any leadership challenge before hand). The plabn will be voted down. She will say she has done everything she can, offer her resignation.

 

If the Tories can agree a leader they will continue  However it's unlikely to be a brexiteer as they haven't got the parliamentary numbers. So they may decide to go to the country, with Labour's agreement with the critical issue being what goes in their manifestos.