Brexit Deal agreed ( updated )

[JamboX2]

12 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

Your latest attempt to characterise we Scots as being the same as the English is i'm afraid full of irrelevancies. Linking this Scotsman survey without any comment or description seems strange to me, perhaps it doesn't support your views after all and the headline is all you want. 

 

 The assertion to which you were replying was that Scottish people are different to English people and that expectations regarding the outcome of a second Brexit referendum might not be what we Scots expect them to be because English people are so different. A good point, i think. 

Your claim “We aren't though, social attitudes surveys show the same trends in Scotland to that of the wider UK population, even on ending freedom of movement.” Is bogus. I don’t know which “trends” you refer to but the snapshots i.e. this poll and the EU referendum tell a different story to the one you offer. The referendum shows 62% of Scots voters support freedom of movement whilst in England the figure was around 46%. That is a substantial difference that exemplifies a massively different attitude to the EU and to foreigners generally.

 

The survey results actually deny your assertion as well. They show that more people in Scotland are in favour of freedom of movement, after Brexit than those in England. What is important is that the survey shows a clear difference between Scotland and England and that was the poster's point. It doesn't really matter though because the question relates to post Brexit and IMO is a pointless question since FOM is linked to the single market and post Brexit, we may or may not, be in it.

 

I think we all know how racist attacks increased in England after the Brexit vote but did not do so in Scotland. We are also aware of many anecdotal accounts of people moving from England to Scotland because of it.

 

Nicola has repeatedly tried to assure EU nationals that they are welcome here and valued. She has repeatedly stated that their presence and rights here would not be damaged as a result of Brexit if she had anything to do with it. TBF I have heard very little criticism of that view from opposition politicians in Scotland. Contrast that with the attitude of some down south.

Quite amazingly you fail to see much distinction between INDY supporters and Brexiteers stating  “Listening to some brexiteers is like listening to some Scottish nationalists: demands for a free, sovereign, independent state Listening to some brexiteers is like listening to some Scottish nationalists: demands for a free, sovereign, independent state free from interference and pooled sovereignty with (insert union of choice here). with (insert union of choice here).”  How can you want to be in the EU with all the shared institutions and legislation and be described as being    free from interference and pooled sovereignty ?  How is it that you cannot understand that when Scotland becomes independent, it will wish to play its part, in the international community and the EU, as and when it sees fit? Why can’t you understand that it is the Unionist parties that are currently conspiring to remove us from the EU? Are you not aware that every single constituency in Scotland voted to remain whist in England a vast majority voted to leave?

Your other comments on how Scotland is not fully on board with the EU are not even slightly credible. To say that the SNP are not “big fans of ever closer union” is not a validation of your argument. You don’t know which elements they may or may not be in favour of, but in any case there can be no doubt that the SNP supports remaining in the EU whether that offers ever closer union or not. The SNP have offered clarity, consistency and strategies to keep the UK in or as close to in the EU as possible. They have managed to do this effectively because in Scotland there is near unity amongst political parties whereas in England it is a bit different.

We do not and have not for some considerable time held similar political views to those in England but just because there is a bit of overlap does not entitle you to ignore the distinctions especially in our attitudes to the EU and people from other countries..   

 

Fine. I'm wrong. You're right. We're hugely different from anyone south of the border. Little in common. 54% of English folk are xenophobes. No common ground. 

Edited April 5, 2019 by JamboX2

[JamboX2]

5 hours ago, coconut doug said:

 

 

A strange sequence of events. In the first post you are telling us that the SNP are happy to support no deal even if tens of thousands of Scots end up losing their jobs because it is their (the SNP's) underlying thought that No deal is the best route to Indy.

 

I said given events they should for the good of everyone in the UK to make this process less crap. That is achieved via a deal of some sort. Otherwise we may end up in no deal and we're all screwed.

 

I said some members of the party I know. Not all.

 

5 hours ago, coconut doug said:

 

In the second post you say that those damaging effects are an "undesirable consequence" thus denying your previous claim that they have a "strange sadism" wanting to damage people's lives to achieve Indy.

 

Again you took my first point too far. 

 

5 hours ago, coconut doug said:

 

And in the third post you are agreeing with me (and all the evidence) that in fact they don't support No Deal as only one Scottish MP has voted for it and he is a Tory.

 

Indeed. No Scottish MP wants no deal but one. So no realistic option should be off the table. Including a deal which all may not like. 

 

5 hours ago, coconut doug said:

 

You have argued both extremes and the middle as far as i can see. I don't know if this is some kind of negotiating tactic learned whilst you were a member of the Labour Party but even a stopped clock is right twice a day. 

 

Indeed. But I don't think you've got my point.

[The Real Maroonblood]

1 hour ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

They still have daily prayers in the House of Commons.

https://www.premier.org.uk/News/UK/MP-calls-for-ban-on-daily-prayers-in-parliament

 

What a lot of pish.

[Joey J J Jr Shabadoo]

1 hour ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

They still have daily prayers in the House of Commons.

https://www.premier.org.uk/News/UK/MP-calls-for-ban-on-daily-prayers-in-parliament

 

Unelected C.o.E bishops passing laws in the Lords, too. 

[Francis Albert]

Imagine if anyone criticised a Muslim, Jewish, Hindi MP or other public figure in the terms May has been criticised for talking about her faith (btw I share neither hers nor any other faith).

 

Nothing to do with Brexit in any event.

Edited April 5, 2019 by Francis Albert

[Francis Albert]

3 minutes ago, Joey J J Jr Shabadoo said:

Unelected C.o.E bishops passing laws in the Lords, too. 

Unelected Head of State with significant if largely unused powers and defender of one faith seems a bigger issue to me.

Nothing to do with Brexit though.

Edited April 5, 2019 by Francis Albert

[ri Alban]

Ruth starting her own party. Scottish Tories(The Unionist Party) splitting from Wm Tories.

[...a bit disco]

Talks break down due to Tory refusal to "compromise".

 

Surprise outcome there eh?

 

 

[Francis Albert]

1 minute ago, ...a bit disco said:

Talks break down due to Tory refusal to "compromise".

 

Surprise outcome there eh?

 

 

Who says?

[...a bit disco]

1 minute ago, Francis Albert said:

Who says?

 

My Upday news alerts.

[Toggie88]

2 hours ago, Brighton Jambo said:

I don't see how a general election helps in the slightest.   Both big parties will run on a manifesto of leaving the EU.  The Tories will be split over a manifesto that says hard brexit versus something soft, Labour will be split between super soft/soft and whether to include the promise of a referendum meaning neither will state a full position or command a majority - so no further forward.

 

Also parties will start campaigning on other topics, NHS etc to deflect from making a decision which while important will detract from actually resolving this issue.  

 

It wont solve anything  

 

I don't disagree. Both Labour and the Tories are all over the shop and face huge internal divisions. As you say, probably won't solve anything but going on historical precedent - I don't think a government has ever managed to get by on such a low majority. Whenever there's been a majority like this, a general election has happened - some times at the government's own doing, sometimes not. 

 

FWIW, I'm not a fan of having another general election but I'd be astounded if this parliament lasts its full term. 

Edited April 5, 2019 by Toggie88

[...a bit disco]

Sky News apparently.

[Toggie88]

5 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

Who says?

 

On twitter as well. 

[Notts1874]

9 minutes ago, ...a bit disco said:

Sky News apparently.

Every journalist in Westminster.

 

[Toggie88]

I'm honestly starting to wonder what world May is living in. She literally can't comprehend not getting her own way. 

[Cade]

DO AS I SAY, PEASANTS! NO COMPROMISE! NO SURRENDER! BREXIT MEANS BREXIT MEANS WHATEVER I SAY IT IS NYEEEAAAAAH!

Edited April 5, 2019 by Cade

[Jambo-Jimbo]

A Sky Data poll has suggested the following.

Leave with no deal = 41%

Long delay & European Parliament Elections = 35%

Brexit with May's deal = 16%

https://news.sky.com/story/european-parliament-elections-a-quarter-of-public-would-boycott-poll-11685011

 

Now this follows a Yougov poll which showed the UK as a whole indicated that 44% would rather a no deal whilst 42% wanted to remain, there was regional variations but the above figures are for the whole of the UK.

 

What is being indicated here is that in the event of a second referendum a 'no deal' option has to also be on the ballot paper alongside 'remain' and whatever deal parliament decides on (if they decide anything), if not then 40%+ of the electorate seem not to have an option to vote on.

 

Edited April 5, 2019 by Jambo-Jimbo

[doctor jambo]

2 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

And again has this anything to do with Brexit? The words of the main prayer quoted surely could not be objectionable to anyone of any religion or like me of none.

Because it’s dangerous mixed up crap.

whenn you have a leader looking to a deity for support, the game is up.

Its a glimpse into a troubled mind.

 

[Victorian]

The Tories live a day-by-day existence.    Constant crisis management.   Firefighting.     It seems to me that they may have decided to row back from the sudden announcement of flexibility and dealing with Labour / Corbyn because of the reaction from within the party.      Decided it wasn't a great idea after all... offer nothing and let the united front wither on the vine.      

[Costanza]

8 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

A Sky Data poll has suggested the following.

Leave with no deal = 41%

Long delay & European Parliament Elections = 35%

Brexit with May's deal = 16%

https://news.sky.com/story/european-parliament-elections-a-quarter-of-public-would-boycott-poll-11685011

 

41% are either uninformed or callous.

Insane that anyone would think a no deal an acceptable outcome.

This latest 'compromise' just looks like more running down the clock.

We either have a soft Brexit,  revoke or no deal.

A soft Brexit where we could assess things in a more orderly, informed and organised fashion down the line, surely the best option here. 

[AlimOzturk]

Well...a no deal brexit looks more and and more likely after the complete and uttershit show from this pathetic government. 

 

I am not looking forward to the next stage of lies and deceit going into the fighting for a second indy referendum.  I think the next the government (Labour or Conservative) will fight to the death to prevent a second referendum as they will know we will leave. 

 

I am sick of politics. Just want to go back to voting once every 2-4 years and be done with it. 

Edited April 5, 2019 by AlimOzturk

[Brighton Jambo]

1 minute ago, AlimOzturk said:

Well...a no deal brexit looks more and and more likely after the complete and uttershit show from this pathetic government. 

 

I am not looking forward to the next stage of lies and deceit going into the fighting for a second indy referendum.  I think the next the government (Labour or Conservative) will fight to the death to prevent a second referendum as they will know we will leave. 

 

I am sick of politics. Just want to go back to voting once every 2-4 years and be done with it. 

There is no chance that any government will agree to a second referendum on independence before the next Scottish elections

[Watt-Zeefuik]

Cooper's bill means that Commons can force an A50 revocation if no deal is imminent, correct?

[Jambo-Jimbo]

4 minutes ago, AlimOzturk said:

Well...a no deal brexit looks more and and more likely after the complete and uttershit show from this pathetic government. 

 

I am not looking forward to the next stage of lies and deceit going into the fighting for a second indy referendum.  I think the next the government (Labour or Conservative) will fight to the death to prevent a second referendum as they will know we will leave. 

 

I am sick of politics. Just want to go back to voting once every 2-4 years and be done with it. 

 

This I'm afraid will also apply to any election/referendum from here on in, it's all become way too bitter, nasty & divisive now imo.

[Cade]

6 minutes ago, Ugly American said:

Cooper's bill means that Commons can force an A50 revocation if no deal is imminent, correct?

No, that was the SNP's amendment put forward by Joanna Cherry.

It was heavily defeated twice last week.

 

The Cooper bill forces the PM to seek a long extension if the UK comes within a few days of a No-Deal situation.

The EU cannot be compelled to grant this.

It just stops the UK choosing to leave with No-Deal.

No-Deal remains the default legal position if nothing can be agreed and no extensions are granted.

Edited April 5, 2019 by Cade

[AlphonseCapone]

46 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

A Sky Data poll has suggested the following.

Leave with no deal = 41%

Long delay & European Parliament Elections = 35%

Brexit with May's deal = 16%

https://news.sky.com/story/european-parliament-elections-a-quarter-of-public-would-boycott-poll-11685011

 

Now this follows a Yougov poll which showed the UK as a whole indicated that 44% would rather a no deal whilst 42% wanted to remain, there was regional variations but the above figures are for the whole of the UK.

 

What is being indicated here is that in the event of a second referendum a 'no deal' option has to also be on the ballot paper alongside 'remain' and whatever deal parliament decides on (if they decide anything), if not then 40%+ of the electorate seem not to have an option to vote on.

 

 

If folk want a second referendum then absolutely No Deal has to be on the ballot, but I can see those most ardent about a second referendum being against that which would be hypocritical. If the argument is folk didn't know what they were voting for or what it meant in reality before then it's equally true that people understand no deal better than before and it should be an option, as should remain.

 

Two questions, paraphrasing;

 

1. Leave the European Union, yes or no. 

 

2. In event of leave vote, May's deal or no deal. 

 

The quoted proportion of people who would back no deal is another reason I think a second referendum would be an awful idea.

[Francis Albert]

49 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

Because it’s dangerous mixed up crap.

whenn you have a leader looking to a deity for support, the game is up.

Its a glimpse into a troubled mind.

 

On that basis most PMs in history had troubled minds. And most leaders of other nominally Christian countries. And of course virtually every leader of a Muslim state. 

[Francis Albert]

1 hour ago, ...a bit disco said:

 

My Upday news alerts.

Sorry. By who says? I meant who says the breakdown is due to the Tories refusal to compromise. I am guessing not the Tories.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

4 minutes ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

If folk want a second referendum then absolutely No Deal has to be on the ballot, but I can see those most ardent about a second referendum being against that which would be hypocritical. If the argument is folk didn't know what they were voting for or what it meant in reality before then it's equally true that people understand no deal better than before and it should be an option, as should remain.

 

Two questions, paraphrasing;

 

1. Leave the European Union, yes or no. 

 

2. In event of leave vote, May's deal or no deal. 

 

The quoted proportion of people who would back no deal is another reason I think a second referendum would be an awful idea.

 

No issues with this whatsoever, and if people have truely changed their minds and vote to remain, then so be it, but the electorate has to be given the chance to express whether they have changed their minds or not, and not have limited and loaded choices on a ballot paper which are being proposed by some.

[RobboM]

Having "No Deal" as a referendum option is absolutely nuts unless you are going to have ANOTHER referendum in the future once a deal has been worked out. Or do you assume that "No Deal" means not now, not ever?

Edited April 5, 2019 by RobboM
Spelig

[hughesie27]

1 minute ago, RobboM said:

Having "No Deal" as a referendum optoin is absoltely nuts unless you are goinf to have ANOTHER referendum in the future once a deal has been worked out. Or do you assume that "No Deal" means not now, not ever?

What if the EU gets tired of us asking for extensions?

[RobboM]

1 minute ago, hughesie27 said:

What if the EU gets tired of us asking for extensions?

Revoke A50 and start again

[AlphonseCapone]

9 minutes ago, RobboM said:

Having "No Deal" as a referendum option is absolutely nuts unless you are going to have ANOTHER referendum in the future once a deal has been worked out. Or do you assume that "No Deal" means not now, not ever?

 

I don't understand what you mean? 

[Jambo-Jimbo]

8 minutes ago, RobboM said:

Revoke A50 and start again

 

Been heavily defeated twice in parliament, there's just not enough support to revoke A50, so it's not going to happen.

[RobboM]

1 minute ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

I don't understand what you mean? 

What I mean is that No Deal isn't the end of the matter. It's just a negotiating tactic. None of the issues that have been problematic in negotiating Brexit so far disappear they just become much more acute. I assume that the government would negotiate some kind of deal with the EU to address all the issues of customs, trade, citizenship rights, travel and all the other myriad connections between us and the EU. At that point what does the government do when the 2 referendums to date would have said leave and leave without a deal? Surely any deal AFTER a No Deal referendum would have to be endorsed? Or does a No Deal decision mean that we only operate on WTO and any other applicable international law for the foreseable future?
 

[Francis Albert]

24 minutes ago, RobboM said:

Having "No Deal" as a referendum option is absolutely nuts unless you are going to have ANOTHER referendum in the future once a deal has been worked out. Or do you assume that "No Deal" means not now, not ever?

It means leaving without a deal. 

There will inevitably be a trade agreement and other arrangements with the EU (and others) in future but I doubt anyone will think having another referendums on these would be a good idea.

Edited April 5, 2019 by Francis Albert

[RobboM]

3 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

It means leaving without a deal. 

There will inevitably be a trade agreement and other arrangements with the EU in future but I doubt anyone will think having another referendum on these would be a good idea.

Please respect the wishes of those who voted for No Deal ?

[Victorian]

What now then?     Supposed set of government / Labour devised motions for parliament to vote on?    Just like the indicative votes,    none might win.      May so ****ing convinced of her expert brinkmanship that she believes her MV will win?     All the time,    the ERG and similar twats looking on and thinking that no deal is in reach.    MV and everything else never gets through parliament.

[AlphonseCapone]

14 minutes ago, RobboM said:

What I mean is that No Deal isn't the end of the matter. It's just a negotiating tactic. None of the issues that have been problematic in negotiating Brexit so far disappear they just become much more acute. I assume that the government would negotiate some kind of deal with the EU to address all the issues of customs, trade, citizenship rights, travel and all the other myriad connections between us and the EU. At that point what does the government do when the 2 referendums to date would have said leave and leave without a deal? Surely any deal AFTER a No Deal referendum would have to be endorsed? Or does a No Deal decision mean that we only operate on WTO and any other applicable international law for the foreseable future?
 

 

Ah right OK gotcha now. 

 

I think this option of no deal applies purely to the situation of how we initially leave the EU. We've opted to leave an organisation we were part of and there are numerous ways to do that, all with varying criticisms of how much any mean to really leave. The issue is leaving and our future relationship are being rolled into one package deal because most folk think that would be the least damaging way for everyone.

 

If no deal were chosen in a referendum then I take that as meaning we cut all ties and negotiate a future deal as a completely separate third party (like we were Canada) but I wouldn't expect the deal negotiated to go back to a referendum, anymore than I'd expect any other trade deal in the future to be decided by a referendum. 

[The Doc]

Some are only just questioning what world May is living in????

 

She’s unhinged. Completely and utterly, off the radar mental.

 

Better together.

[Cade]

Do the No-Deal maniacs understand that at some point in the very near future, we'll have to make a deal with the EU, and that all the same issues (Irish border especially), will just come up again during those talks?

 

Or are they actually stupid enough to think we can trade with the EU on WTO rules forever?

[Mikey1874]

4 hours ago, ...a bit disco said:

Talks break down due to Tory refusal to "compromise".

 

Surprise outcome there eh?

 

 

 

Lol

[Mikey1874]

1 hour ago, Victorian said:

What now then?     Supposed set of government / Labour devised motions for parliament to vote on?    Just like the indicative votes,    none might win.      May so ****ing convinced of her expert brinkmanship that she believes her MV will win?     All the time,    the ERG and similar twats looking on and thinking that no deal is in reach.    MV and everything else never gets through parliament.

 

Very difficult.

 

Common Market 2.0 seems the most likely. But if enough MPs / parties think they can stop Brexit it is facing a struggle. SNP supported it last time. Will they again? The Independent Group opposed it but are in favour of close relationship with EU. 

[Victorian]

6 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

Very difficult.

 

Common Market 2.0 seems the most likely. But if enough MPs / parties think they can stop Brexit it is facing a struggle. SNP supported it last time. Will they again? The Independent Group opposed it but are in favour of close relationship with EU. 

 

Lots of factions appearing to compromise but not really.

[JAYEL]

“A” deal or No deal are the only options of a referendum

 

Remain lost the last one

 

Over 1/3rd of Scottish voters voted to leave 

[Mikey1874]

May must still believe she can get her Deal passed.

[Mikey1874]

Just now, JAYEL said:

“A” deal or No deal are the only options of a referendum

 

Remain lost the last one

 

Over 1/3rd of Scottish voters voted to leave 

 

Remain isn't going to be an option as things stand. No Deal would not be as Parliament has ruled that out.

 

A. Accept Deal Yes or No

 

B. Renegotiate 

 

 

[Francis Albert]

2 hours ago, RobboM said:

Please respect the wishes of those who voted for No Deal ?

No-one voted for No Deal as such. . A clear majority voted to Leave, of which No Deal was one of the wide range of possible outcomes. I don't really see why, as is so often the message on here, that Leave voters should be blamed for the fact that MPs who voted 85% to hold the referendum and then were elected on the promise to respect that vote, should be unable after nearly three years to come up with a single outcome other than No Deal.

[Francis Albert]

1 hour ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

Remain isn't going to be an option as things stand. No Deal would not be as Parliament has ruled that out.

 

A. Accept Deal Yes or No

 

B. Renegotiate 

 

 

I think the Parliament vote against No Deal is advisory. Whether it is or not,  does not preclude a future referendum including a No Deal option.

As for "renegotiate" as a referendum option???

 

(And of course "No Deal" is not something the UK Parliament can rule out. The EU has the final say in that as things stand)

Edited April 5, 2019 by Francis Albert

[JAYEL]

30 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

I think the Parliament vote against No Deal is advisory. Whether it is or not,  does not preclude a future referendum including a No Deal option.

As for "renegotiate" as a referendum option???

 

(And of course "No Deal" is not something the UK Parliament can rule out. The EU has the final say in that as things stand)

The corrupt and undemocratic EU always has the final say