Brexit Deal agreed ( updated )

[manaliveits105]

Cheese eating surrender monkeys trying to persuade EU to just go for no deal - no extensions

when this is all over there will be a lot of revenge to exact - France is a batshit crazy house of cards anyway as is the EU if UK leaves

[ri Alban]

33 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

By pure serendipity I discovered this internet term this morning . . . Mods take note.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning

Gish gallop   I'm ofing that.

Edited April 7, 2019 by ri Alban

[ri Alban]

14 hours ago, Ugly American said:

 

The complication from this, as I understand it, is the EU, and specifically Spain, because of the Catalonia problem. Spain has widely said that *if the UK government agrees to the split*, Scotland can rejoin the EU, no problems, back you are. The setting of precedent is obvious here -- Spain wants a de facto veto on an independent Catalonia getting back into the EU. 

EFTA will do me just fine. I want Scotland to head towards the Nordic nations, anyway.  England is to powerful. They need to find their own place in the world and so do we, and The Nordic nations are mostly of our size. Perfect!

[Francis Albert]

Meanwhile back on topic ... the big sticking point in Labour/Government discussions seems to be proposed changes to the Political Document. This is puzzling. The PD, for those who haven't read it, is a wordy "motherhood and apple pie" type statement about the future relationship between a departed UK and the EU. It is long on good intentions , short on detail. It is also non-binding, and indeed on one area where it verged on specifics (fishing rights), Macron has already torn it up. It is also a joint document with the EU, however woolly. Why the EU would at this time want to spend time on renegotiating a non-binding woolly statement of intent is unclear to me. Why anyone thinks amending a non-binding statement is the key to resolving the mess is equally unclear to me.

[CJGJ]

1 hour ago, Francis Albert said:

Meanwhile back on topic ... the big sticking point in Labour/Government discussions seems to be proposed changes to the Political Document. This is puzzling. The PD, for those who haven't read it, is a wordy "motherhood and apple pie" type statement about the future relationship between a departed UK and the EU. It is long on good intentions , short on detail. It is also non-binding, and indeed on one area where it verged on specifics (fishing rights), Macron has already torn it up. It is also a joint document with the EU, however woolly. Why the EU would at this time want to spend time on renegotiating a non-binding woolly statement of intent is unclear to me. Why anyone thinks amending a non-binding statement is the key to resolving the mess is equally unclear to me.

With all that has gone on you would think any agreement would be binding on all parties and it would be folly to proceed without one that is not binding

 

Brexit fatigue is setting in and people are thinking too short term rather than thinking this will impact on the popualtion for decades to come and on children not even a glint in their parents eye yet...a few more months for an agreed route out of this mess is a small price to pay

 

I'll not change my view that another vote is the right route out of this but if that is not an option we need a negotiated settlement understanding there cannot be a deal where all the interested parties get everything they want out of a negotiated deal

 

MP's have never voted for everything their constituents have believed in and are elected to represent but not follow their constituents wishes otherwise why have them for any type of vote

[132goals1958]

 

[shaun.lawson]

20 hours ago, redjambo said:

 

You are obviously advantaged in your education, but see my answer above. According to Directive 2004/38/EC, good cause has to be shown for ejecting an EU citizen from another EU country.

 

 

It's complicated. While we're in the EU, if a Briton moves to Spain, in theory, they don't have to register after 3 months.

 

But in practice, they do. Because not registering = no ID card = limited access to healthcare = very little access to legal work = no access to pensions.

 

Latin cultures almost always have ID cards. In my case, in theory, after moving here, I could've kept renewing my tourist visa for a few pesos before 90 days were up; then popped over the border for a few hours before 180 days were up. Rinse and repeat, forever. 

 

But in practice: if someone doesn't have an ID card/residency or hasn't applied for residency here, they:

 

- Can't get medical treatment without paying through the nose for the privilege

- Can't work legally beyond a certain point (a year, if I recall correctly)

- Can't access pensions

- Can't access supermarket or store discount cards

- Can't access credit cards

- Can't access mortgages

- Will have a problem renting long term

- May have a problem opening a bank account

- May even have a problem organising an internet connection, or electricity

 

In other words, no residency and no ID card makes day-to-day things we all take for granted very, very difficult. That model is how things ought to work beyond 90 days across the EU. And it is how things do work in some EU countries. It doesn't in the UK because ID cards have never been part of our culture. They're too authoritarian for Brits. 

Edited April 7, 2019 by shaun.lawson

[ri Alban]

11 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

It's complicated. While we're in the EU, if a Briton moves to Spain, in theory, they don't have to register after 3 months.

 

But in practice, they do. Because not registering = no ID card = limited access to healthcare = very little access to legal work = no access to pensions.

 

Latin cultures almost always have ID cards. In my case, in theory, after moving here, I could've kept renewing my tourist visa for a few pesos before 90 days were up; then popped over the border for a few hours before 180 days were up. Rinse and repeat, forever. 

 

But in practice: if someone doesn't have an ID card/residency or hasn't applied for residency here, they:

 

- Can't get medical treatment without paying through the nose for the privilege

- Can't work legally beyond a certain point (a year, if I recall correctly)

- Can't access pensions

- Can't access supermarket or store discount cards

- Can't access credit cards

- Can't access mortgages

- Will have a problem renting long term

- May have a problem opening a bank account

- May even have a problem organising an internet connection, or electricity

 

In other words, no residency and no ID card makes day-to-day things we all take for granted very, very difficult. That model is how things ought to work beyond 90 days across the EU. And it is how things do work in some EU countries. It doesn't in the UK because ID cards have never been part of our culture. They're too authoritarian for Brits. 

Most folk have ID cards, but in different forms. Driving licence, Passport, Student Card or Fingerprints.

[shaun.lawson]

3 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

Most folk have ID cards, but in different forms. Driving licence, Passport, Student Card or Fingerprints.

 

Sure - but they don't work in the same way. The culture's very different here. For example: in the UK, when you use a debit or credit card, they don't ask you to write your ID on the receipt. They do here. This meant that before my ID card came through, I had to carry my passport everywhere!

[Morgan]

17 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Sure - but they don't work in the same way. The culture's very different here. For example: in the UK, when you use a debit or credit card, they don't ask you to write your ID on the receipt. They do here. This meant that before my ID card came through, I had to carry my passport everywhere!

 

Similar thing for us here whilst waiting for our Carte Vitale. 

 

You missed out on the 10,000th post on the thread, Shaun!  

[shaun.lawson]

1 minute ago, Morgan said:

Similar thing for us here whilst waiting for our Carte Vitale. 

 

You missed out on the 10,000th post on the thread, Shaun!  

 

I bet I've written at least 10,000 words on the thread though.

 

I actually don't quite understand why the UK doesn't use national insurance cards in the same way as EU countries use ID cards. We all receive a card when we turn 18; many people probably lose theirs, as they're never asked to present it again, only to remember their numbers.

 

It must be within the UK's capacity to modernise NI cards and make them an effective requirement, surely?

[Morgan]

1 minute ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

I bet I've written at least 10,000 words on the thread though.

 

I actually don't quite understand why the UK doesn't use national insurance cards in the same way as EU countries use ID cards. We all receive a card when we turn 18; many people probably lose theirs, as they're never asked to present it again, only to remember their numbers.

 

It must be within the UK's capacity to modernise NI cards and make them an effective requirement, surely?

Quite agree with you on the National Insurance card point. You’re also correct about folk losing their card but remembering the number, it’s a strange thing.

 

You’re wrong however about the 10.000 words on this thread.

 

It’s upwards of 10,000 every feckin post!  

[ri Alban]

1 hour ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Sure - but they don't work in the same way. The culture's very different here. For example: in the UK, when you use a debit or credit card, they don't ask you to write your ID on the receipt. They do here. This meant that before my ID card came through, I had to carry my passport everywhere!

?

[Norm]

As long as there's no charge, I have no problem with a mandatory ID card scheme. The issue I have is that if it's compulsory to have one and they charge you for it, it's basically a tax on existing. 

[Unknown user]

16 minutes ago, Normthebarman said:

As long as there's no charge, I have no problem with a mandatory ID card scheme. The issue I have is that if it's compulsory to have one and they charge you for it, it's basically a tax on existing. 

I don't like it at all, the concept of a mandatory card that justifies my existence to the authorities is very uncool to me. In Holland you have to have photo ID on you at all times, a passport or driving license basically. While it's a better system I didn't like that either, we're free animals roaming the earth and you shouldn't need to justify yourself if you're doing nothing wrong. 

Edited April 7, 2019 by Smithee

[Bindy Badgy]

1 hour ago, Normthebarman said:

As long as there's no charge, I have no problem with a mandatory ID card scheme. The issue I have is that if it's compulsory to have one and they charge you for it, it's basically a tax on existing. 

 

 

Even if it's provided for 'free' the money is coming out of your taxes so you're paying for it one way of the other.

[Francis Albert]

7 hours ago, CJGJ said:

With all that has gone on you would think any agreement would be binding on all parties and it would be folly to proceed without one that is not binding

 

Brexit fatigue is setting in and people are thinking too short term rather than thinking this will impact on the popualtion for decades to come and on children not even a glint in their parents eye yet...a few more months for an agreed route out of this mess is a small price to pay

 

I'll not change my view that another vote is the right route out of this but if that is not an option we need a negotiated settlement understanding there cannot be a deal where all the interested parties get everything they want out of a negotiated deal

 

MP's have never voted for everything their constituents have believed in and are elected to represent but not follow their constituents wishes otherwise why have them for any type of vote

I agree with much of that. Once MPs had stupidly voted by an 85% majority (it wasn't all down to Cameron) to hold a referendum with the simple Leave/Remain options and got the "wrong" answer the logical next step was first to negotiate the terms of the future UK/EU relationship then agree how to transition from Remain to Leave. Instead we proceeded arse about tit and focussed on the transition (the EU as well as the UK is to blame) and have still not three years later got agreement on the UK side on the terms of that transition. Transition to something not yet defined. The logical process would have been to agree what we were transitioning towards (which might well have taken the Irish border issue for example out of the equation) and then on how to get there. And if we still needed a confirmatory second vote we would at least know what the real alternatives are whereas now we know as little as we did three years ago about what the UK/EU relationship will be after we leave.

Edited April 7, 2019 by Francis Albert

[CJGJ]

21 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

I agree with much of that. Once MPs had stupidly voted by an 85% majority (it wasn't all down to Cameron) to hold a referendum with the simple Leave/Remain options and got the "wrong" answer the logical next step was first to negotiate the terms of the future UK/EU relationship then agree how to transition from Remain to Leave. Instead we proceeded arse about tit and focussed on the transition (the EU as well as the UK is to blame) and have still not three years later got agreement on the UK side on the terms of that transition. Transition to something not yet defined. The logical process would have been to agree what we were transitioning towards (which might well have taken the Irish border issue for example out of the equation) and then on how to get there. And if we still needed a confirmatory second vote we would at least know what the real alternatives are whereas now we know as little as we did three years ago about what the UK/EU relationship will be after we leave.

I don't believe this....I find myself agreeing with this post..there's hope yet it seems  ?

[Jamboelite]

2 minutes ago, CJGJ said:

I don't believe this....I find myself agreeing with this post..there's hope yet it seems  ?

[CJGJ]

3 minutes ago, Jamboelite said:

Surely FA is not that cunning............though thinking about it more you could be right !!!!!!!!!...sorry FA ?

[Martin_T]

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/i-was-strong-brexiteer-now-we-must-swallow-our-pride-and-think-again/

 

A very balanced piece written by one of the 17.4 million.

[Mikey1874]

Statement from Downing Street just now says wants "UK to have independent trading policy". (Tends to rule out Customs Union). Hopes talks with Labour later today. 

 

May meeting Merkel and Macron in Berlin and Paris tomorrow.

 

 

[Mikey1874]

Next stage is Government making a 'new' proposal to Labour. 

 

No 'red lines' but clear on what they want (which might still include all the red lines) say Conservatives. 

 

No change in position yet say Labour 

Edited April 8, 2019 by Mikey1874

[AlimOzturk]

They will fail to agree and we will leave without a deal IMO

[doctor jambo]

40 minutes ago, AlimOzturk said:

They will fail to agree and we will leave without a deal IMO

They will come up with enough waffle to permit a long extension, giving companies enough time to jump ship,

and hopefully enough time for both the big parties to elect new leaders

[Jambo-Jimbo]

41 minutes ago, AlimOzturk said:

They will fail to agree and we will leave without a deal IMO

 

Whilst I take a different view.

 

They will fail to agree, May goes back to the EU, asks for a short extension, which she knows she won't get and be offered a long extension instead, which she'll grab with both hands, because it keeps the UK in the EU for maybe a year longer and kicks the can down the road until the next pantomine of talks & deals come back around next year, unless of course they can manage to manufacture a second referendum or general election before then.

[Mikey1874]

May's plan may still be to try to get her Deal passed.

 

But looking like it will go back to Parliament next week. 

[jambo89]

4 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

May's plan may still be to try to get her Deal passed.

 

But looking like it will go back to Parliament next week. 

 

Next week? 

 

I thought we we were out on the 12th? 

[Mikey1874]

6 minutes ago, jambo89 said:

 

Next week? 

 

I thought we we were out on the 12th? 

 

There's been no indication yet of votes being given to Parliament. Still could happen.

 

But more likely there will be an extension before anything happens now. Labour and Government are still in discussions though no progress. That is slower than it seemed last week.  

[Don Dan]

Tory HQ admits it WILL be taking part in European Parliament elections on May 23 almost three years after Brexit vote in a humiliating new blow for the PM  

 

[Gizmo]

On 07/04/2019 at 16:48, Smithee said:

I don't like it at all, the concept of a mandatory card that justifies my existence to the authorities is very uncool to me. In Holland you have to have photo ID on you at all times, a passport or driving license basically. While it's a better system I didn't like that either, we're free animals roaming the earth and you shouldn't need to justify yourself if you're doing nothing wrong. 

Exactly why ID schemes were rejected. The state should have to identify itself to the free citizen, not the other way round unless absolutely necessary. 

[Unknown user]

54 minutes ago, Gizmo said:

Exactly why ID schemes were rejected. The state should have to identify itself to the free citizen, not the other way round unless absolutely necessary. 

Well said. 

[AlphonseCapone]

1 hour ago, Gizmo said:

Exactly why ID schemes were rejected. The state should have to identify itself to the free citizen, not the other way round unless absolutely necessary. 

 

That's sounds great but it's just not reality. We aren't free citizens. 

[Don Dan]

2 hours ago, Dannie Boy said:

Tory HQ admits it WILL be taking part in European Parliament elections on May 23 almost three years after Brexit vote in a humiliating new blow for the PM  

 

 

Conservative HQ has made an embarrassing U-turn after sending out a mass email saying Britain will be taking part in European Parliament elections on May 23 -  before then rowing back to insist the nation could still leave without going to the polls. 

Mrs May has insisted for months she does not want Britain to take part in the EU elections and as recently as last week said she wanted to avoid it.

But an email to Tory candidates earlier this evening said: 'Due to the current situation we will be contesting the European Elections on 23 May 2019 and the closing date for nominations is 24 April.'

However, in a later email, Tory chairman Brandon Lewis U-turned on the remarks, which were made by the party's head of candidates Gareth Fox. He suggested Mr Fox's email was only outlining what would happen if this ambition is not achieved. 

 

 

No wonder Brexit is a shambles!

[DETTY29]

Dispatches was some watch tonight.

 

Fruit farmer with 90%+ EU workers voted leave for the greater good of being British despite knowing his business is likely to go down the swanny.

 

Probably type of guy who blames the EU that France and Germany pay their pensioners significantly more than the UK.  Taking all our money to pay their pensioners......

 

Old guy voted leave just before he put his wife in a care home, not realising the reliance on EU workers in the care sector.  Would probably vote stay now.

 

 

[SE16 3LN]

10 hours ago, DETTY29 said:

Dispatches was some watch tonight.

 

Fruit farmer with 90%+ EU workers voted leave for the greater good of being British despite knowing his business is likely to go down the swanny.

 

Probably type of guy who blames the EU that France and Germany pay their pensioners significantly more than the UK.  Taking all our money to pay their pensioners......

 

Old guy voted leave just before he put his wife in a care home, not realising the reliance on EU workers in the care sector.  Would probably vote stay now.

 

 

The irony of that is the 400k French living in London to avoid paying French taxes and because their are a dearth of top level Jobs in France. Their parents are probably taking advantage of the significantly higher French pensions though ?

[The Real Maroonblood]

May pleading with Merkel and Macron.

That should cheer up a few people in England.

[Boris]

Loving the ERG seethe at the moment with May.

 

trying all they can to oust her, wanting another vote on the leadership.

 

Irony knows no bounds.

[AlimOzturk]

The EU should tell May to sling her hook. Watch the desperation unfold when she comes back and begs MPs to withdraw article 50. 

Edited April 9, 2019 by AlimOzturk

[doctor jambo]

the EU are saying that no matter what happens they will preserve the backstop arrangements.

works + spanner

 

any they will consider nothing without BOTH backstop AND financial settlement

[hughesie27]

10 minutes ago, AlimOzturk said:

The EU should tell May to sling her hook. Watch the desperation unfold when she comes back and begs MPs to withdraw article 50. 

Think she can do that herself.

[XB52]

18 hours ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

Whilst I take a different view.

 

They will fail to agree, May goes back to the EU, asks for a short extension, which she knows she won't get and be offered a long extension instead, which she'll grab with both hands, because it keeps the UK in the EU for maybe a year longer and kicks the can down the road until the next pantomine of talks & deals come back around next year, unless of course they can manage to manufacture a second referendum or general election before then.

Agree.  Think we will end up with a year extension, with a GE in that time. No idea what it will solve though, although the SNP needs to have Independence in their manifesto

[doctor jambo]

16 minutes ago, XB52 said:

Agree.  Think we will end up with a year extension, with a GE in that time. No idea what it will solve though, although the SNP needs to have Independence in their manifesto

Being realistic now - with the EU stating they will enforce the backstop regardless , we might as well pass TM's deal.

 

Or we abandon the Good Friday agreement ( not sure why we cannot do this anyway)

[Notts1874]

Have the EU blinked yet? They all kept saying they would blink.

[AlimOzturk]

3 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

Being realistic now - with the EU stating they will enforce the backstop regardless , we might as well pass TM's deal.

 

Or we abandon the Good Friday agreement ( not sure why we cannot do this anyway)

 

Well no. There is more to Mays pathetic deal than the backstop. 

 

We would be as well having another referendum, stop this madness and get back to relative normality. 

[doctor jambo]

2 minutes ago, AlimOzturk said:

 

Well no. There is more to Mays pathetic deal than the backstop. 

 

We would be as well having another referendum, stop this madness and get back to relative normality. 

I agree,

we need to chuck this in  and just let everyone get on with their lives in peace with our European neighbours.

I never really saw the problem with being joined to France/Spain/Italy/Greece and so on- all beautiful countries with amazing people.

I always liked the notion that Rome/ Ibiza/ Zagreb were as much a part of my country as Dundee/ Cumnock/Watford

[Mikey1874]

12 hours ago, DETTY29 said:

Dispatches was some watch tonight.

 

Fruit farmer with 90%+ EU workers voted leave for the greater good of being British despite knowing his business is likely to go down the swanny.

 

Probably type of guy who blames the EU that France and Germany pay their pensioners significantly more than the UK.  Taking all our money to pay their pensioners......

 

Old guy voted leave just before he put his wife in a care home, not realising the reliance on EU workers in the care sector.  Would probably vote stay now.

 

 

 

So not to get out of the Customs Union then. 

Edited April 9, 2019 by Mikey1874

[Mikey1874]

2 hours ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

May pleading with Merkel and Macron.

That should cheer up a few people in England.

 

Shows where the power is 

[Francis Albert]

1 hour ago, doctor jambo said:

Being realistic now - with the EU stating they will enforce the backstop regardless , we might as well pass TM's deal.

 

Or we abandon the Good Friday agreement ( not sure why we cannot do this anyway)

If we "crash out" how can the EU enforce the back stop?

[doctor jambo]

20 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

If we "crash out" how can the EU enforce the back stop?

Wouldn't imagine they could.

Just repeating what they say.

 

The GFA needs rewritten, how an agreement can be enforced for all eternity is beyond me