Brexit Deal agreed ( updated )

[Mikey1874]

Labour

 

 

[Costanza]

11 minutes ago, Cade said:

Ken Clarke's Customs Union : lost by 8

Margaret Beckett's 2nd Referendum: lost by 27

 

Those were the two closest ones.

Closer than May's deal but to some Tories, that's the most legitimate way forward now!

What was also noticeable tonight was how Jeremy Corbyn signed a letter that said "Today we are supporting all options that enable us to prevent a damaging Tory Brexit or No Deal being forced on the country".

He then recommended to Labour MPs to abstain on Joanna Cherry's motion.

 

[AlphonseCapone]

4 minutes ago, Costanza said:

Closer than May's deal but to some Tories, that's the most legitimate way forward now!

What was also noticeable tonight was how Jeremy Corbyn signed a letter that said "Today we are supporting all options that enable us to prevent a damaging Tory Brexit or No Deal being forced on the country".

He then recommended to Labour MPs to abstain on Joanna Cherry's motion.

 

 

They are a pathetic and spineless party. 

[Victorian]

If government accepts MV is doomed + IV day2 (Monday) results in clear alternative,    would government move in that direction?     Really can't see it.

 

General election (+ extension) ?     Doubtful.      Forced by confidence motion?     Normally not a chance but would only need a few disgusted Tory rebels.     

 

Simply run out of options and hide under the bed?     Quite possible.

[Cade]

I cannae keep up with who voted for or against or who whipped for or against or who abstained and who changed their minds and who rebelled and what's going on.

 

[Victorian]

Labour Party make a gigantic 'good guys' gesture and back MV3 in an emergency national interest expediency?       Playing the electoral long game?       

[Cruyff Turn]

Thanks chaps. 

 

So now that the options have been narrowed down, 

 

The best 4 losers go back to be voted on in the Commons on Monday and they’ll surely whip against/for them all.

 

Maggie Becketts and Ken Clarke’s then might get over the line. 

 

And then they’ll bring back MV3 and possibly all 3 might go to the people to vote on? 

 

Of course, the Gov’t might just ignore them all. ?

[AlphonseCapone]

SNP back it MV3 in return for Independence referendum. That'd be some scenes. 

[Cruyff Turn]

6 minutes ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

They are a pathetic and spineless party. 

Aye, they are quite a disgraceful bunch. 

They should be nice to the SNP because they’ll need them to form the next Gov’t. ?

[Victorian]

Just now, AlphonseCapone said:

SNP back it MV3 in return for Independence referendum. That'd be some scenes. 

 

Nut.   Would require 40 others to move.     Not worth the risk,    even if serious.    

[Victorian]

Cancelling Brexit and solidarity with Jocks are too toxic for Labour.       It's not great but no surprise.

[AlimOzturk]

Stephen Barclay  (brexit secretary)

 

"Mps should now vote for Mays deal in the national interest. The results of today's process strengthens our view that the deal May negotiated is the best option"

 

Is that the deal that was roundly deafteated in record numbers twice? 

 

These people man

 

 

 

[Victorian]

1 minute ago, AlimOzturk said:

Stephen Barclay  (brexit secretary)

 

"Mps should now vote for Mays deal in the national interest. The results of today's process strengthens our view that the deal May negotiated is the best option"

 

Is that the deal that was roundly deafteated in record numbers twice? 

 

These people man

 

 

 

 

I think it was said in the context of a no deal alternative scenario.      It has some merit but was opportunism.

[Cruyff Turn]

1 minute ago, AlphonseCapone said:

SNP back it MV3 in return for Independence referendum. That'd be some scenes. 

Nah, the SNP wouldn’t do that, they don’t need permission for an Indy Ref, they’ve got a democratic mandate and the EU would throw their weight behind it. 

[Cade]

1 minute ago, Cruyff Turn said:

Nah, the SNP wouldn’t do that, they don’t need permission for an Indy Ref, they’ve got a democratic mandate and the EU would throw their weight behind it. 

Need permission for it to be binding otherwise it's just an opinion poll.

[hughesie27]

New plan.

 

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/231563?fbclid=IwAR2_7q-1aWSgezcmUIs7__p3pw0o8F-u6TfR_dpaQ9VlHNJOVeepKALdmpw

[AlimOzturk]

10 minutes ago, hughesie27 said:

New plan.

 

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/231563?fbclid=IwAR2_7q-1aWSgezcmUIs7__p3pw0o8F-u6TfR_dpaQ9VlHNJOVeepKALdmpw

 

Bye

 

If they left we could work with Wales and NI in harmony. What a UK that would be eh

[Cruyff Turn]

19 minutes ago, Cade said:

Need permission for it to be binding otherwise it's just an opinion poll.

I’d very much doubt they’d reject one in the first place, then reject the outcome of an advisory referendum. They’d then have to back down and give permission to hold one otherwise it’ll be a UDI. That’s not a position the UK government wants to find itself in. 

 

*all referendums are advisory and not legally binding in the U.K.

Edited March 27, 2019 by Cruyff Turn

[Mikey1874]

1 hour ago, Costanza said:

Closer than May's deal but to some Tories, that's the most legitimate way forward now!

What was also noticeable tonight was how Jeremy Corbyn signed a letter that said "Today we are supporting all options that enable us to prevent a damaging Tory Brexit or No Deal being forced on the country".

He then recommended to Labour MPs to abstain on Joanna Cherry's motion.

 

 

1 hour ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

They are a pathetic and spineless party. 

 

SNP abstained on the Customs Union vote which lost by 8

 

Curious. Anyone explain?

 

See 22.49

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-parliaments-47696409

 

 

[Mikey1874]

1 hour ago, Victorian said:

Cancelling Brexit and solidarity with Jocks are too toxic for Labour.       It's not great but no surprise.

 

SNP abstaining prevented successful vote in favour of Customs Union 

 

Anyone able to explain or justify that? 

[Mikey1874]

Others asking the question too

 

 

[Mikey1874]

 

[Unknown user]

4 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

 

SNP abstained on the Customs Union vote which lost by 8

 

Curious. Anyone explain?

 

See 22.49

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-parliaments-47696409

 

 

It just looks like they voted for their favoured option and abstained on the rest doesn't it?

[Mikey1874]

Maybe an explanation here

 

SNP plan is perhaps to seek to stay in EU. Know customs union close to a consensus.

 

 

[Mikey1874]

Be interested to hear from the anti Labour / pro SNP people on reasoning. Unless SNP are learning from the DUP.

 

 

[Mikey1874]

 

[Mikey1874]

Some answers. But does give hope something could get support on Monday.

 

 

 

[Mikey1874]

Poker it is then

 

 

[Costanza]

3 hours ago, Mikey1874 said:

Poker it is then

 

 

Those are interesting tweets you've posted there.

I didn't realise the SNP had abstained on a few of these and whilst I get not wanting a custom union without single market,  I thought they would have voted on the Boles motion for a Norway type deal. There has to be a compromise to avoid a no deal and they are risking that by not voting for that. Technically a soft Brexit is what the country voted for and I'm pretty sure the SNP have many in their ranks who would want to ape Norway.

 

A soft Brexit doesn't really advance independence so I think there is a bit of that there as well.

[Class of 75]

7 hours ago, Cruyff Turn said:

Nah, the SNP wouldn’t do that, they don’t need permission for an Indy Ref, they’ve got a democratic mandate and the EU would throw their weight behind it. 

You honestly think the EU would support the pressure for an Independent Scotland firstly given how they dealt with Catalonia and secondly Scotland would be a net taker from the EU and of no fiscal benefit. Is it not slightly hypocritical of the SNP to leave one Union just so that they can join another?

Edited March 28, 2019 by Class of 75

[Konrad von Carstein]

5 minutes ago, Class of 75 said:

You honestly think the EU would support the pressure for an Independent Scotland firstly given how they dealt with Catalonia and secondly Scotland would be a net taker from the EU and of no fiscal benefit. Is it not slightly hypocritical of the SNP to leave one Union just so that they can join another?

[Mikey1874]

[hughesie27]

51 minutes ago, Class of 75 said:

 Is it not slightly hypocritical of the SNP to leave one Union just so that they can join another?

No.

 

Disappointed with the SNP last night though. Playing party politics just like all the others.

Now is the time for compromise.

[Mikey1874]

There is a bit of excitement by some including The Independent Group who voted against a customs union unlike SNP who abstained. They claim a 27 vote defeat for a Peoples Vote  is above a 8 vote defeat because it got the most votes. 

 

SNP did what they did too saying it's because No Brexit is on. 

 

Both are delusional. Despite everyone especially Labour playing politics, Brexit is the will of Parliament. Labour and Tories are still very much committed to it.

 

So a middle way with consensus starting to emerge could have taken over if either SNP or The Independent Group had voted for the Customs Union.

 

Now the most likely outcomes are 1. No Deal 2. May's deal passes including option of Labour abstaining. 

 

Everyone needs to answer questions. SNP and The Independent Group should certainly be asked some questions today. 

Edited March 28, 2019 by Mikey1874

[Pans Jambo]

27 minutes ago, hughesie27 said:

No.

 

Disappointed with the SNP last night though. Playing party politics just like all the others.

Now is the time for compromise.

No it bloody isnt!

Never forget why we are up to our waist wading through this shite! The tax dodging tories put us in this position with their infighting. Cameron gave them the Brexit vote to stop a tory civil war & guess what, theres now a tory civil war!

Scotland voted to remain in the EU & but the bare minimum, we should at least have the customs union & the free market. 

Why shoukd the Scottish MP’s vote to bump along a deal that nobody in Scotland wants or voted for?

Now Brexit failure is the SNP’s fault aye?

Geez peace! The right wing, tax dodging, facist party that is splintered into at least 3 groups should be the focus here, not 35 SMP MP’s!

[AlphonseCapone]

1 hour ago, Class of 75 said:

You honestly think the EU would support the pressure for an Independent Scotland firstly given how they dealt with Catalonia and secondly Scotland would be a net taker from the EU and of no fiscal benefit. Is it not slightly hypocritical of the SNP to leave one Union just so that they can join another?

 

Did I just wake up in 2014 or something? 

[AlphonseCapone]

Aren't the SNP simply representing their constituents? 

[Craig_]

Got to laugh, the DUP take a cool £1bn of taxpayers money to vote alongside the government, then start voting against the government!

[Victorian]

It depends what the next stage options are and how they proceed but the next stage may well throw up an option which does get a majority.     It looks like parties and groups treated the first stage as an opening gambit to push their own options,    knowing the second stage is when the compromise positions are more important.     

 

Factions will be in discussions until then.     They'll now be fully aware of the implications of remaining in party policy positions.      

[Craig_]

1 hour ago, Class of 75 said:

You honestly think the EU would support the pressure for an Independent Scotland firstly given how they dealt with Catalonia and secondly Scotland would be a net taker from the EU and of no fiscal benefit. Is it not slightly hypocritical of the SNP to leave one Union just so that they can join another?

 

Look, I know you've got a degree, but don't you think the "too wee, too stupid, too poor" argument has had its day?

[AlphonseCapone]

9 minutes ago, Victorian said:

It depends what the next stage options are and how they proceed but the next stage may well throw up an option which does get a majority.     It looks like parties and groups treated the first stage as an opening gambit to push their own options,    knowing the second stage is when the compromise positions are more important.     

 

Factions will be in discussions until then.     They'll now be fully aware of the implications of remaining in party policy positions.      

 

Aye I think folk calling it a farce either haven't understood (who can blame them?) or are being intentionally critical, but MPs always knew there would be time on Monday and the consensus seems to be that would be used to vote on narrowed down options if an obvious favourite didn't come out tonight. 

[Cruyff Turn]

1 hour ago, Class of 75 said:

You honestly think the EU would support the pressure for an Independent Scotland firstly given how they dealt with Catalonia and secondly Scotland would be a net taker from the EU and of no fiscal benefit. Is it not slightly hypocritical of the SNP to leave one Union just so that they can join another?

The EU would 100% support Scotland saying yes. Catalonia has never, in the history of the planet, been a Country, whereas Scotland already is and always has been. The two things are completely different cases. 

No it isn’t. 

[Boris]

5 hours ago, Costanza said:

Those are interesting tweets you've posted there.

I didn't realise the SNP had abstained on a few of these and whilst I get not wanting a custom union without single market,  I thought they would have voted on the Boles motion for a Norway type deal. There has to be a compromise to avoid a no deal and they are risking that by not voting for that. Technically a soft Brexit is what the country voted for and I'm pretty sure the SNP have many in their ranks who would want to ape Norway.

 

A soft Brexit doesn't really advance independence so I think there is a bit of that there as well.

 

While campaigning to revoke article 50 and bin Brexit does?

[Mikey1874]

 

[Pans Jambo]

41 minutes ago, Craig_ said:

 

Look, I know you've got a degree, but don't you think the "too wee, too stupid, too poor" argument has had its day?

Is it a degree in horticulture or what???

[Victorian]

31 minutes ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

Aye I think folk calling it a farce either haven't understood (who can blame them?) or are being intentionally critical, but MPs always knew there would be time on Monday and the consensus seems to be that would be used to vote on narrowed down options if an obvious favourite didn't come out tonight. 

 

It certainly looks that way.    It's not helpful to provide the opponents of indicative votes with the ammunition of no consensus on the first batch of votes but I now think the next stage will.     Opponents will of course down play any future consensus by citing the first stage as a failure.     It could embolden the government even more to ignore the votes.    

 

Parties simply now need to organise themselves behind a couple of compromise proposals.     If would help politically if separate parties find a way to co-sponsor the options.     This would help a consensus position being formed without the same impression that any given party is in league with another.      It's very difficult for Labour to appear in step with the SNP.     It's electoral poison.     The solution is to engineer a co-sponsored alternative from the back benches.    

[AlphonseCapone]

21 minutes ago, Cruyff Turn said:

The EU would 100% support Scotland saying yes. Catalonia has never, in the history of the planet, been a Country, whereas Scotland already is and always has been. The two things are completely different cases. 

No it isn’t. 

 

Can't believe I'm having to do the Spain thing, assumed it was common knowledge their position on Scotland but just in case;

 

 

 

 

[Unknown user]

1 hour ago, Mikey1874 said:

There is a bit of excitement by some including The Independent Group who voted against a customs union unlike SNP who abstained. They claim a 27 vote defeat for a Peoples Vote  is above a 8 vote defeat because it got the most votes. 

 

SNP did what they did too saying it's because No Brexit is on. 

 

Both are delusional. Despite everyone especially Labour playing politics, Brexit is the will of Parliament. Labour and Tories are still very much committed to it.

 

So a middle way with consensus starting to emerge could have taken over if either SNP or The Independent Group had voted for the Customs Union.

 

Now the most likely outcomes are 1. No Deal 2. May's deal passes including option of Labour abstaining. 

 

Everyone needs to answer questions. SNP and The Independent Group should certainly be asked some questions today. 

The SNP don't want Brexit though, they're hardly going to say "we don't want Brexit, this is the type of Brexit we want." If you expected them to vote for a Brexit option then I'd say it's your expectations that are the problem, they're being entirely consistent as far as I can tell.

 

When you look at the mess of the last two years, and in particular the last couple of months in Westminster, suddenly pointing the finger at the SNP is mental.

[Mikey1874]

UK / EU Customs union would be a big help to an independent Scotland being admitted to the EU. 

[Victorian]

The SNP openly stated a first choice wish and compromise positions.     The SNP will facilitate a softer Brexit when the wish of no Brexit looks unlikely.      The SNP votes are much more likely to be provided to solutions than Tory.     It's already pretty clear that few Tories will deviate from May's deal or no deal positions.     There will be very little movement there.

 

Blaming the SNP or even Labour is extremely naive.