Cade Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 Boris goes back to losing votes in the Commons. Any loopholes discovered in the Benn act will now be able to be closed in real time in reaction to government proposals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin_T Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 It really is one big constitutional mess. I think the Scottish government would be perfectly entitled to ask for the same deal as the Northern Irish appear to be getting, but what would be the legal mechanism that would even enable them to ask for this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cade Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 EU makes Benn act irrelevant anyways: Junker says no further extensions will be granted. So it's this deal or no deal. Or no Brexit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Cade said: EU makes Benn act irrelevant anyways: Junker says no further extensions will be granted. So it's this deal or no deal. Or no Brexit. Him saying that at this stage before Parliament votes does not mean there will not be an extension. This is part of EU doing everything to help get a deal done. Possibly agreed with Boris. It's not Junker's decision. Edited October 17, 2019 by Mikey1874 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambo-Jimbo Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 31 minutes ago, Lord BJ said: Deal fails, we get an extension, a general election happens and we go round in circles again as it will probably still be a minority government. Juncker has just said differently when asked the question of the UK getting an extension if the deal is rejected by Westminster. He said, no, why would the UK need an extension there is a deal, then when asked what happens if the commons rejects the deal, he then just shrugged his shoulders. Looking very much like, if MP's reject this deal then it's a no deal brexit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamb0_1874 Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 The no further extension is an interesting play by Boris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gjcc Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 1 minute ago, Barack said: so he’s not ruled it out. good one bbc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambo-Jimbo Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 Just now, jamb0_1874 said: The no further extension is an interesting play by Boris It's the EU which has said no more extensions, not Johnson. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamb0_1874 Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 1 minute ago, Mikey1874 said: Him saying that at this stage before Parliament votes does not mean there will not be an extension. True but it doesn't mean there will be either. It's a big gamble by MPs now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamb0_1874 Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 Just now, Jambo-Jimbo said: It's the EU which has said no more extensions, not Johnson. Do you not think Boris has told them to say this to try and force Westminster to fall into line behind the deal that has been negotiated Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin_T Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 A reminder that our current 'deal' with the EU gives us: -Full, unrestricted access to one of the largest markets in the world -The capacity to influence and shape the regulation of that market -A veto on any laws we don't like -The capacity to stay out of the EURO -And the ability to control immigration in line with out labour market needs Any deal less than this is a bad deal for the country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambo-Jimbo Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 1 minute ago, Barack said: Glad EU have called WM's bluff on this shit-show. I tend to agree, the can can't keep getting kicked down the road. I've seen many interviews with business leaders and generally whether they be for or against brexit, the one thing they all agree with is that they need certainty, be that a no deal brexit or leave with a deal, either way get the thing done, and then everybody can move on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beni Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 1 hour ago, Footballfirst said: DUP requirements for supporting the Boris deal: Another bung of £1.5bn A "No Surrender" Act The pound to increase in value to €1.1690 Or more practically, a work around for Stormont to prevent N Ireland falling into line with UK laws on abortion and same sex marriage, as is due to happen on Monday in the absence of a vote by Stormont (which is dormant at the moment). Basically, there's no way the DUP will countenance a border down the Irish sea... ... unless it applies to abortion rights and their stone age religious beliefs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Dan Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 It’s a clever move by the EU to say there will be no extension as there is a deal on the table. If you vote it down then we leave with no deal. This is not what Parliament want or will allow. The only way round this is from the UK side is to go for a second referendum which can now be added to the mix. Regarding a GE at this stage I think that won’t happen if Corbyn calls for a confidence vote, it will be defeated imo. My guess is second referendum which allow the EU to grant an extension until the result is known. Then no matter the outcome it will be followed by a GE a few months later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cade Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 4 minutes ago, Martin_T said: A reminder that our current 'deal' with the EU gives us: -Full, unrestricted access to one of the largest markets in the world -The capacity to influence and shape the regulation of that market -A veto on any laws we don't like -The capacity to stay out of the EURO -And the ability to control immigration in line with out labour market needs Any deal less than this is a bad deal for the country. Indeed. The best deal is what we already have. Full EU membership but with more opt-outs than anybody else has. We already have the best of both worlds and ANY kind of Brexit will be damaging. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 8 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said: It's the EU which has said no more extensions, not Johnson. It's not the EU. Its Juncker who just said it. It's not his decision. The bottom line is that No Deal is too damaging to Ireland (and others) for the EU to refuse an extension. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambo-Jimbo Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 5 minutes ago, jamb0_1874 said: Do you not think Boris has told them to say this to try and force Westminster to fall into line behind the deal that has been negotiated Do you think Boris has that amount of influence with Juncker, Tusk & Barnier et al, because I don't. As Barack has said the EU want brexit over with as much as the UK does and the can has to stop getting kicked down the road. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Dannie Boy said: It’s a clever move by the EU to say there will be no extension as there is a deal on the table. If you vote it down then we leave with no deal. This is not what Parliament want or will allow. The only way round this is from the UK side is to go for a second referendum which can now be added to the mix. Regarding a GE at this stage I think that won’t happen if Corbyn calls for a confidence vote, it will be defeated imo. My guess is second referendum which allow the EU to grant an extension until the result is known. Then no matter the outcome it will be followed by a GE a few months later. Yes. Second Referendum gives EU chance for what it wants. UK to stay in EU. General Election gives EU chance of second choice - Labour Government keeping UK in Customs Union and Single market. Edited October 17, 2019 by Mikey1874 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin_T Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 2 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said: I tend to agree, the can can't keep getting kicked down the road. I've seen many interviews with business leaders and generally whether they be for or against brexit, the one thing they all agree with is that they need certainty, be that a no deal brexit or leave with a deal, either way get the thing done, and then everybody can move on. The problem is that the political agreement is only a small part of the process. We would then enter several years of negotiations to secure a trade deal. More uncertainty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ri Alban Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 Tick Tock UK!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambo-Jimbo Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 2 minutes ago, Martin_T said: The problem is that the political agreement is only a small part of the process. We would then enter several years of negotiations to secure a trade deal. More uncertainty. I do not see the trade negotiations occupying as much time & energy as the withdrawl agreement has done, certainly within the public domain and on the TV, media etc etc, as the UK would already be out, and business would be trading with the EU already on WTO or whatever terms they happen to be trading on, and those terms would continue until such time as a new trade deal was struck. I'm not saying the trade deal will be easy, but I do not see it being played out 24/7 on TV, such as the WA has been for the last 3 years or so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Barack said: Juncker doesn't go for a piss without Merkel holding the toilet door open, & Macron shaking it for him. If he's saying fairly strong rhetoric, I'd be surprised if those two haven't at least been briefed on what they think, & if they agree with what Juncker wants to say. If France, Germany & Ireland fall into line, the rest nod their heads and follow on. Fair enough You need to have a look then and everything Juncker has said in the past including telling Teresa May in April there would be no extension before there was. Here are some examples including about No Deal and telling Te https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/no-deal-brexit-lead-collapse-20542376.amp https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2019/may/23/jean-claude-juncker-criticises-mps-prioritising-theresa-mays-removal-over-brexit https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2019/apr/03/eu-leaders-urged-to-refuse-may-appeal-for-further-brexit-delay Edited October 17, 2019 by Mikey1874 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Dan Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 4 minutes ago, Barack said: Juncker doesn't go for a piss without Merkel holding the toilet door open, & Macron shaking it for him. If he's saying fairly strong rhetoric, I'd be surprised if those two haven't at least been briefed on what they think, & if they agree with what Juncker wants to say. If France, Germany & Ireland fall into line, the rest nod their heads and follow on. there’s just been a very interesting interview on Sky with a German MEP. He’s basically contradicted Junker. He’s just said if there was any credible reason to extend then there would be an extension. It was also very interesting that he also said Germany and France are net contributors to the EU and the loss of the UK monies and how to replace it would need to be seriously considered. The EU.know they are going to take a financial hit with the UK leaving and that must worry them. I’m positive now that the EU and the Remain side have and are working together. No actual proof mind you. ps hope that all makes sense🤪 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gov Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 The best option in my opinion was to go back to the people saying do you want this deal or do you want to stay. Scotland voted against it as a whole. You can say we are part of the union but we are treated like a teenage kid being told to shut up and go to your room. I honestly feel that if the UK leaves the European union then scotland will be independent within 24/48 months. and before anyone jumps on my comments, it is only my opinion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howdy Doody Jambo Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 So in a nutshell it's Deal or No Deal on super Saturday Take it or Leave it There's nothing about second referendums not even on the table Job done one way or another, game over Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dobmisterdobster Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 A general election would solve the Brexit deadlock and as a bonus, rid us of Jeremy Corbyn. A fudged referendum that wasn't in the Tory or Labour manifesto would be a complete farce. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gov Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 Issue with Junker is he does not actually get to make that choice it will be the other leaders of the countries. He is known to be a bit of a wild one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin_T Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 35 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said: I do not see the trade negotiations occupying as much time & energy as the withdrawl agreement has done, certainly within the public domain and on the TV, media etc etc, as the UK would already be out, and business would be trading with the EU already on WTO or whatever terms they happen to be trading on, and those terms would continue until such time as a new trade deal was struck. I'm not saying the trade deal will be easy, but I do not see it being played out 24/7 on TV, such as the WA has been for the last 3 years or so. I think the most likely outcome is that we proceed on a temporary basis with exact alignment to prevent disruption and then the formal trade deal will pretty much be the same. The politicians are seen to have delivered Brexit, with Brexit meaning that the UK becomes a rule taking, weakened state, unable to influence or veto the rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin_T Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 I suggested a while back that the most likely outcome was that we would leave with a re-heated version of May's deal. In essence delivering the political aspect of the referendum whilst trying to minimise the economic damage. What we desperately need in the UK is a credible opposition party that stands any chance of being elected. Labour are miles away from this. I'm curious as to what happens to the Brexit party now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gjcc Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 (edited) 9 minutes ago, gov said: Issue with Junker is he does not actually get to make that choice it will be the other leaders of the countries. He is known to be a bit of a wild one. Has he even said there won’t be one? Based purely on the BBC screenshot that has been posted on here. It looks like he has been asked if the EU will extend and replied that as there is currently a deal there is no need to extend. And the BBC state he has “ruled it out” in the heading, which he might not have based on the following BBC text. Apologies if he has, I haven’t looked into it. Edited October 17, 2019 by gjcc Typo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 1 minute ago, Martin_T said: I suggested a while back that the most likely outcome was that we would leave with a re-heated version of May's deal. In essence delivering the political aspect of the referendum whilst trying to minimise the economic damage. What we desperately need in the UK is a credible opposition party that stands any chance of being elected. Labour are miles away from this. I'm curious as to what happens to the Brexit party now? All eyes on how the ERG vote on Saturday. At the next GE expect Farage to label Boris a coward/traitor/betrayer etc Could see a split in the Tory vote? Or it may leave them irrelevant. More interesting will be what happens to the Lib Dem vote. If Brexit secured, their main weapon is spiked. Labour surge in polls as domestic things (austerity, poverty etc) come back to the fore. Those leave voting labour supporters may return to the fold? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gov Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 2 minutes ago, gjcc said: Has he even said there won’t be one? Based purely on the BBC screenshot that has been posted on here. It looks like he has been asked if the EU will extend and replied that as their is currently a deal there is no need to extend. And the BBC state he has “ruled it out” in the heading, which he might not have based on the following BBC text. Apologies if he has, I haven’t looked into it. Its all in his wording to be honest. From what i have seen he said there is no NEED for an extension as the deal has been agreed. its not really his choice though he is well known for being off the cuff when he speaks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mighty Thor Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 Watch this. It's why this will fall on its ass on Saturday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cade Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 More or less nobody knows where this leaves us, what anybody's plans are, what will happen in Parliament over the weekend or what will happen in the next few weeks/months or what the outcome of any incoming General Election will be. It's total chaos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambo-Jimbo Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 37 minutes ago, Martin_T said: I think the most likely outcome is that we proceed on a temporary basis with exact alignment to prevent disruption and then the formal trade deal will pretty much be the same. The politicians are seen to have delivered Brexit, with Brexit meaning that the UK becomes a rule taking, weakened state, unable to influence or veto the rules. Yip, that's most likely the way I see things as well, meaning there will be little to no impact on the day to day trading with the EU for the next 2 or 3 years maybe even longer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vegas-voss Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 Boris played a blinder come back with a shit deal and the EU has said no extension.So looks like it's a no deal Brexit as MPs will refuse the deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown user Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 9 minutes ago, vegas-voss said: Boris played a blinder come back with a shit deal and the EU has said no extension.So looks like it's a no deal Brexit as MPs will refuse the deal. No deal isn't happening. I personally think the most likely long term outcome is remaining in the EU with the Tories making sure everyone else gets the blame for their shitshow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vegas-voss Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 (edited) Just now, Smithee said: No deal isn't happening. I personally think the most likely long term outcome is remaining in the EU with the Tories making sure everyone else gets the blame for their shitshow. Hope so Well the first part anyway Edited October 17, 2019 by vegas-voss Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cade Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 Boris already said today that he will not ask for an extension, making him in contempt of court already. Admitting you are going to break the law before even doing it is daft, even for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DETTY29 Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Martin_T said: I suggested a while back that the most likely outcome was that we would leave with a re-heated version of May's deal. In essence delivering the political aspect of the referendum whilst trying to minimise the economic damage. What we desperately need in the UK is a credible opposition party that stands any chance of being elected. Labour are miles away from this. I'm curious as to what happens to the Brexit party now? Last paragraph? Farage stays relevant in one way or another for personal (significant £) gain by his super rich paymasters. Man of the people my erse. Edit - not unlike most politicians. Edited October 17, 2019 by DETTY29 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cade Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 Hang on............Herr Farage is raging because we're not allowed an extension and have to make a deal or face being booted out? I thought he wanted no deal. He should be over the moon. What is going on?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Masonic Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 3/1 on brexit to happen on or before 31/10/19 free money Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DETTY29 Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 2 minutes ago, Cade said: Hang on............Herr Farage is raging because we're not allowed an extension and have to make a deal or face being booted out? I thought he wanted no deal. He should be over the moon. What is going on?! In his ancestors native tongue, quelle surprise. Or as his kids would say, was fuer eine ueberraschung. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusk_Till_Dawn Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 Just vote this shit through and get on with it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cade Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, Old Castle Rock said: So in a nutshell it's Deal or No Deal on super Saturday Take it or Leave it There's nothing about second referendums not even on the table Job done one way or another, game over No Parliament voted against the Government today to have a longer debate including amendments. (Government wanted a short straight hour and a half debate with no amendments). Which could include an amendment for a Referendum. If that amendment passes (or other amendments) then the vote is no longer just on passing the deal. It's the deal plus the Referendum. At that point the Government could be voting against its own deal. Edited October 17, 2019 by Mikey1874 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackLadd Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 Do the DUP actually know they share a land border with the EU? Thickest morons going. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sooperstar Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 12 minutes ago, JackLadd said: Do the DUP actually know they share a land border with the EU? Thickest morons going. I reckon they are probably aware of the intricacies of the relationship between the north and the south. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackLadd Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 1 minute ago, Sooperstar said: I reckon they are probably aware of the intricacies of the relationship between the north and the south. Heads in the watp sand if you ask me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 15 minutes ago, Sooperstar said: I reckon they are probably aware of the intricacies of the relationship between the north and the south. The people who didn't ever want to let Catholics be equals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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