redm Posted August 16, 2017 Share Posted August 16, 2017 So she's finding solace in her daughter becoming a martyr? Is this genuinely the key message that you took from her speech? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redm Posted August 16, 2017 Share Posted August 16, 2017 You know, another thing I noticed when reading social media debate on this tonight is that some people who share similar but less extreme views to these white supremacists are happy to indulge them or muddy the puddle because they seem to think it paves the way for an acceptable form of racism. A softer more casual form. There's a lot of that going on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peebo Posted August 16, 2017 Share Posted August 16, 2017 So if the other side says words regarding the deceased also that is OK? I doubt you would agree given the terrible words that were said by the other side. My point is if she decides to make martyrdom an issue then the other side will no doubt respond. imo both sides should can it. If by "the other side says words regarding the deceased" means people from the white supremacist movement talking shit about the victim of an incident which appears to have been caused by another in the white supremacist movement driving into a crowd of people, I think that would be disgusting and reprehensible. But something best ignored. Such bile is not worthy of a response. If viewing her murdered daughter as a martyr, or rather believe some good will come of her death, makes her feel better, I'm fine with it. What reasonable person wouldn't be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deesidejambo Posted August 16, 2017 Share Posted August 16, 2017 If by "the other side says words regarding the deceased" means people from the white supremacist movement talking shit about the victim of an incident which appears to have been caused by another in the white supremacist movement driving into a crowd of people, I think that would be disgusting and reprehensible. But something best ignored. Such bile is not worthy of a response. If viewing her murdered daughter as a martyr, or rather believe some good will come of her death, makes her feel better, I'm fine with it. What reasonable person wouldn't be? It was your comment "words are fine" that I was pointing out. So you only mean words are fine if they come from one side. Imo both sides are as bad as the other in terms of inflaming the situation so both should can it. But in your view one side should shut it and the other push for martyrdom. Wont work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peebo Posted August 16, 2017 Share Posted August 16, 2017 It was your comment "words are fine" that I was pointing out. So you only mean words are fine if they come from one side. Imo both sides are as bad as the other in terms of inflaming the situation so both should can it. But in your view one side should shut it and the other push for martyrdom. Wont work. No, I mean they are fine. If people want to come out with something reprehensible and disgusting, I'm fine with that. Ignore them. That's the best response. You are stating something as my view that isn't, and something I mean that I actually don't. As a tip, doing that does not strengthen your argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redm Posted August 16, 2017 Share Posted August 16, 2017 I don't accept there's two sides and they're "as bad as each other", or they they "might have a point." I don't accept anti-fascism as a problem - not as a concept - we surely should all be against facism. Anti white supremacy. Anti Nazi. Isn't that the only reasonable, civilised and fair position to take? Remove all the deliberate obfuscation, twisting of contexts and sleekit misrepresentation and take it right down to the core ideologies and isn't there only one side of the fence you can really find yourself on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redm Posted August 16, 2017 Share Posted August 16, 2017 Also, that Vice video. Bloody hell. Vice do some outstanding work. Worth posting up the link again in case anyone missed it. I'll share the sequel too [emoji51] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deesidejambo Posted August 16, 2017 Share Posted August 16, 2017 No, I mean they are fine. If people want to come out with something reprehensible and disgusting, I'm fine with that. Ignore them. That's the best response. You are stating something as my view that isn't, and something I mean that I actually don't. As a tip, doing that does not strengthen your argument. OK my argument, which you clearly disagree, is that both sides should pipe down as all they are doing is inflaming the other side. Sad though it is, the mother intimating her daughters death will be turned into a cause-celebre or martyrdom may not be help the situation as all it does is raise tensions further. But you disagree so there we go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redm Posted August 16, 2017 Share Posted August 16, 2017 OK my argument, which you clearly disagree, is that both sides should pipe down as all they are doing is inflaming the other side. Sad though it is, the mother intimating her daughters death will be turned into a cause-celebre or martyrdom may not be help the situation as all it does is raise tensions further. But you disagree so there we go. She was murdered during a political protest. She was deliberately killed for her beliefs. Her killer made her a martyr (by definition), not her mother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deesidejambo Posted August 16, 2017 Share Posted August 16, 2017 She was murdered during a political protest. She was deliberately killed for her beliefs. Her killer made her a martyr (by definition), not her mother. Nope, Its her mothers intent that I am pointing out........... "I'd rather have my child, but by golly, if I got to give her up, we're going to make it count." I dont know what she is planning, but I reiterate that its time for all sides in this issue to back down and shut up. The last thing anyone should want is some sort of conflagration at the ladies funeral, but it looks like we are heading that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpie Posted August 16, 2017 Share Posted August 16, 2017 The mother of a child who has lost that child in the most useless way I willingly concede to her the right to say, do, attack or defend ,whoever, whatever, wherever that she wants she has lost something she can never get back, and will never forget. She joins an unfortunately large population of people who have lost a child, never forget, to a parent whatever stage in life they are at they are always their child,my heart goes out to her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davemclaren Posted August 16, 2017 Share Posted August 16, 2017 I don't accept there's two sides and they're "as bad as each other", or they they "might have a point." I don't accept anti-fascism as a problem - not as a concept - we surely should all be against facism. Anti white supremacy. Anti Nazi. Isn't that the only reasonable, civilised and fair position to take? Remove all the deliberate obfuscation, twisting of contexts and sleekit misrepresentation and take it right down to the core ideologies and isn't there only one side of the fence you can really find yourself on? Very powerful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redm Posted August 16, 2017 Share Posted August 16, 2017 Nope, Its her mothers intent that I am pointing out........... "I'd rather have my child, but by golly, if I got to give her up, we're going to make it count." I dont know what she is planning, but I reiterate that its time for all sides in this issue to back down and shut up. The last thing anyone should want is some sort of conflagration at the ladies funeral, but it looks like we are heading that way. I can't really understand where you're coming from with this. Did you listen to her whole speech or are you basing your opinion on that one excerpt? Some Nazi lunatic just mowed down her daughter, she has every right to make her thoughts heard. If anyone has the right to be heard at the moment, she most definitely does. Also, the Nazi element were already planning a presence at Heather's funeral well before her mother said anything at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redm Posted August 16, 2017 Share Posted August 16, 2017 Very powerful. "Did they sing softly to their babies?" [emoji30] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davemclaren Posted August 16, 2017 Share Posted August 16, 2017 "Did they sing softly to their babies?" [emoji30] Impossible to imagine such horrors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maple Leaf Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 Impossible to imagine such horrors. Impossible indeed. Yet it happened thousands and thousands of times, year after year. And the people who think those actions were OK, also love Donald Trump. "Jews will not replace us," was their chant last weekend. Yet some people still make rationalisations for that despicable excuse for a human being. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpie Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 I was ten to eleven years old when these terrible events were being exposed. I remember the poor people who survived, and the animals that posed as being human who carried out the acts, one was a female guard and the other a male they were two of the worst. Do these 2017 Nazis actually really want to be identified with these horrible people. No matter how you feel about a persons race, religion or politics there are or should be limits to your response. Just remembered the two names, Irma Grece, and the man was Kramer. Both hanged which was humane compared to their crimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpie Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 I just caught a bit on our local News, apparently there are two demonstrations scheduled for Vancouver for Saturday. One protesting immigrants and particularly Muslims, and one defending the the mentioned parties. One of the protestors for anti immigrant and Muslims referred to Donald Trump and what the future demonstrator feels is Trumps agreement in their cause. Its funny how things come back to you, I commented on the Campaign thread about Trump and Clinton and that I was finished with the whole thing, I was rebuked possibly in a humorous I am not sure way, but the comment was basically where is it any of your business you don't even live in the f-----in Country. This is why I and suspect some of my fellow Canadians are also interested in what happens in the States, they are our direct neighbour and impact us greatly good and bad, . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maple Leaf Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 I just caught a bit on our local News, apparently there are two demonstrations scheduled for Vancouver for Saturday. One protesting immigrants and particularly Muslims, and one defending the the mentioned parties. One of the protestors for anti immigrant and Muslims referred to Donald Trump and what the future demonstrator feels is Trumps agreement in their cause. Its funny how things come back to you, I commented on the Campaign thread about Trump and Clinton and that I was finished with the whole thing, I was rebuked possibly in a humorous I am not sure way, but the comment was basically where is it any of your business you don't even live in the f-----in Country. This is why I and suspect some of my fellow Canadians are also interested in what happens in the States, they are our direct neighbour and impact us greatly good and bad, . When a noxious weed takes root in your neighbour's lawn, it can quickly spread to your own lawn. And in this day and age of instant communications, your neighbour is actually everybody. America's neo-Nazis, white supremacists, and KKK love Donald Trump. They're a large part of Donald Trump's base, so he will not do anything to alienate them. If the Republican party do nothing to rein in this evil man, they are as culpable as he is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 tbh both sides. Both. Sides. Need to not use this murder for ends that make her death a political issue. If one side do it then the other will also do it. Given the circumstances, her death was political! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidelight Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 When a noxious weed takes root in your neighbour's lawn, it can quickly spread to your own lawn. And in this day and age of instant communications, your neighbour is actually everybody. America's neo-Nazis, white supremacists, and KKK love Donald Trump. They're a large part of Donald Trump's base, so he will not do anything to alienate them. If the Republican party do nothing to rein in this evil man, they are as culpable as he is. 2016: Trump Disavows Racist Elements of so-called ?Alt-Right? Not long after winning the presidency, Trump disavowed the racist elements of what the mainstream media termed the ?alt-right.? From CNN on Nov. 23, 2016: ?I don?t want to energize the group, and I disavow the group,? Trump told a group of New York Times reporters and columnists during a meeting at the newspaper?s headquarters in New York. ?It?s not a group I want to energize, and if they are energized, I want to look into it and find out why,? he added, according to one of the Times reporters in the room, Michael Grynbaum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deesidejambo Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 Given the circumstances, her death was political! So you then give it a form of legitimacy. Not me. I say this was outright murder by a madman who imo should suffer death penalty if that is possible in this state. My point is the mothers statement they are going to "make it count" will be construed by some as some sort of veiled revenge threat, even if that wasn't the intent. What is needed here is all sides to reduce fighting talk, intentional or otherwise. As for statues etc I've already posted that given the nature of the issues, consensus-based solutions are preferable and should be sought-after before going for majority rule ones, which leave large sections of the communities angry. The alt-right are very dangerous people, armed and stupid. As I suggested before, ignore them and they will fade away over time, but what is happening now is simply provoking them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambo-Jimbo Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 I just caught a bit on our local News, apparently there are two demonstrations scheduled for Vancouver for Saturday. One protesting immigrants and particularly Muslims, and one defending the the mentioned parties. One of the protestors for anti immigrant and Muslims referred to Donald Trump and what the future demonstrator feels is Trumps agreement in their cause. Its funny how things come back to you, I commented on the Campaign thread about Trump and Clinton and that I was finished with the whole thing, I was rebuked possibly in a humorous I am not sure way, but the comment was basically where is it any of your business you don't even live in the f-----in Country. This is why I and suspect some of my fellow Canadians are also interested in what happens in the States, they are our direct neighbour and impact us greatly good and bad, . I'm sure that one of the guys in the vice video said that he'd driven down from Canada. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambo-Jimbo Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 2016: Trump Disavows Racist Elements of so-called ?Alt-Right? Not long after winning the presidency, Trump disavowed the racist elements of what the mainstream media termed the ?alt-right.? From CNN on Nov. 23, 2016: ?I don?t want to energize the group, and I disavow the group,? Trump told a group of New York Times reporters and columnists during a meeting at the newspaper?s headquarters in New York. ?It?s not a group I want to energize, and if they are energized, I want to look into it and find out why,? he added, according to one of the Times reporters in the room, Michael Grynbaum. Yet these groups still flock to Trump's banner and in repeated interviews they openly believe that Donald Trump is at the very least sympathetic to their cause. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidelight Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 Yet these groups still flock to Trump's banner and in repeated interviews they openly believe that Donald Trump is at the very least sympathetic to their cause. Hypocrisy abounds. Duplicity breath-taking. I can hear the cries of ?free Barabbas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambo-Jimbo Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 Also, that Vice video. Bloody hell. Vice do some outstanding work. Worth posting up the link again in case anyone missed it. I'll share the sequel too [emoji51] It's the nonchalant way these people openly talk on camera about their views on Jews, Blacks, well just about anybody who is not like them, are there not laws in America to stop this. I'm pretty sure if someone in the UK came out openly spewing this kind of filth would be getting a visit from the old bill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZeroHour Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 When a noxious weed takes root in your neighbour's lawn, it can quickly spread to your own lawn. And in this day and age of instant communications, your neighbour is actually everybody. America's neo-Nazis, white supremacists, and KKK love Donald Trump. They're a large part of Donald Trump's base, so he will not do anything to alienate them. If the Republican party do nothing to rein in this evil man, they are as culpable as he is. So of the 63m people that voted Trump, how many of them were "neo-nazi & KKK"? As you claim them to be "a large part" of his vote i'll hold my breath for a substantial number.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambo-Jimbo Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 Hypocrisy abounds. Duplicity breath-taking. I can hear the cries of ?free Barabbas? I don't give a sh*t about Obama, I don't give a sh*t about the Democratic or Republican parties. What is happening in America right now transcends either political party, this runs much much deeper and to try and score political points is IMO a very poor show mate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZeroHour Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 It's the nonchalant way these people openly talk on camera about their views on Jews, Blacks, well just about anybody who is not like them, are there not laws in America to stop this. I'm pretty sure if someone in the UK came out openly spewing this kind of filth would be getting a visit from the old bill. America has free speech (read the first amendment) . The UK does not. The real debate about Charlottesville (that nobody seems to be having) is wether the US should abolish the first amendment and move towards making hate speech illegal like it is in the UK. The so called "counter-protestors" can't have their cake and eat it too, ie, they can't both support the first amendment and at the same time attempt to forcefully shutdown what they don't like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambo-Jimbo Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 America has free speech (read the first amendment) . The UK does not. The real debate about Charlottesville (that nobody seems to be having) is wether the US should abolish the first amendment and move towards making hate speech illegal like it is in the UK. The so called "counter-protestors" can't have their cake and eat it too, ie, they can't both support the first amendment and at the same time attempt to forcefully shutdown what they don't like. So people can say what they want in America without fear of prosecution? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZeroHour Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 So people can say what they want in America without fear of prosecution? Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 So people can say what they want in America without fear of prosecution?Criminally, almost always yes. Civil is different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaw Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 I can hear the cries of ?free Barabbas? Not everyone attacking Trump here will necessarily agree with Obama's attempts to dissociate the shooter's actions from his religion, but even some of the harsher critics of Islam will acknowledge that it differs from white supremacism, in that hatred for others is not ultimately the reason for its very existence. As others have said, however, this thread is about Trump, not Obama. I am not sure how familiar your reference to Barabbas will be to posters who have spent minimal time in churches, so I have to ask: in your analogy, does Trump represent Jesus? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambo-Jimbo Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 Yes. So under the terms of the First Amendment, the likes of Abu Hamza & Abu Qatada are free to spout their hatred of Jews and others openly in the USA? If the Neo-Nazis, KKK and the likes are free to spout hatred of Jews then so can Muslim 'hate' Preachers? Question is would it actually happen, how long would someone like Abu Hamza be allowed to freely spout their pish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bindy Badgy Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 Just remembered the two names, Irma Grece, and the man was Kramer. Both hanged which was humane compared to their crimes. I'd never heard of her before. Her Wikipedia page makes for very grim reading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cade Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 The 1st Amendment protects free speech in public areas. However, businesses are not bound by this amendment and can fire people for making hate speech. Many of the white supremacists and Nazis are terrified of being indentified and fired, which has happened to many of them over the years. They become unemployable due to their batshit crazy world views. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZeroHour Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 So under the terms of the First Amendment, the likes of Abu Hamza & Abu Qatada are free to spout their hatred of Jews and others openly in the USA? I think so - incitement to violence may be a different matter, if his content was simply anti-semitic and called on non-believers to convert, etc, it's allowed. If he's openly calling for people to blow stuff up then it could be illegal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidelight Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 I don't give a sh*t about Obama, I don't give a sh*t about the Democratic or Republican parties. What is happening in America right now transcends either political party, this runs much much deeper and to try and score political points is IMO a very poor show mate. The establishment are determined to remove Trump at any cost. Whether that be with witch-hunt or by the hand of an assassin, who knows. The storm pounding him from the corporate establishment media and beyond is unprecedented. Hypocrisy and duplicity has a new home. This runs much deeper than party politics. So no poor show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidelight Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 Not everyone attacking Trump here will necessarily agree with Obama's attempts to dissociate the shooter's actions from his religion, but even some of the harsher critics of Islam will acknowledge that it differs from white supremacism, in that hatred for others is not ultimately the reason for its very existence. As others have said, however, this thread is about Trump, not Obama. I am not sure how familiar your reference to Barabbas will be to posters who have spent minimal time in churches, so I have to ask: in your analogy, does Trump represent Jesus? Jesus represents Jesus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZeroHour Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 The establishment are determined to remove Trump at any cost. Whether that be with witch-hunt or by the hand of an assassin, who knows. The storm pounding him from the corporate establishment media and beyond is unprecedented. Hypocrisy and duplicity has a new home. This runs much deeper than party politics. So no poor show. Spot on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambo-Jimbo Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 I think so - incitement to violence may be a different matter, if his content was simply anti-semitic and called on non-believers to convert, etc, it's allowed. If he's openly calling for people to blow stuff up then it could be illegal. So maybe it's time for the First Amendment to be amended so as make Anti-Semitic hate speech Illegal in the USA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 So maybe it's time for the First Amendment to be amended so as make Anti-Semitic hate speech Illegal in the USA.An "attack on civil liberties" in an atmosphere like this? No politician is going near that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambo-Jimbo Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 The establishment are determined to remove Trump at any cost. Whether that be with witch-hunt or by the hand of an assassin, who knows. The storm pounding him from the corporate establishment media and beyond is unprecedented. Hypocrisy and duplicity has a new home. This runs much deeper than party politics. So no poor show. I'm not going to deny that 'the Washington establishment' don't like nor want Donald Trump as President, that is clear for all to see, however Trump is so stupid he gives his opponents with each passing day more and more ammunition to beat him with. Over the years Trump has made an awful lot of enemies within the business world, so it comes as no shock or surprise that they are now exerting 'payback' via some sections of the media. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambo-Jimbo Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 An "attack on civil liberties" in an atmosphere like this? No politician is going near that one. Exactly, but when has there ever been a right time? Meanwhile the bigots and racists are free to spout their hate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 Exactly, but when has there ever been a right time? Meanwhile the bigots and racists are free to spout their hate. Quite but you aren't American, so be thankful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaw Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 Jesus represents Jesus. But unless I've misunderstood, your analogy meant that Obama was more similar to a notorious bandit, and Trump more similar to someone crucified by the crowds, despite having lived an entirely blameless life. If you meant something else, tell me what you did mean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZeroHour Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 So maybe it's time for the First Amendment to be amended so as make Anti-Semitic hate speech Illegal in the USA. That's the bigger picture. "Counter-protestors" were essentially protesting against the legal, first amendment right when they tried to shut down the alt-right rally. I guess the debate hinges on how much you value your freedom vs Government control. Americans tend to like their freedoms and hate the idea of a nanny state. In Scotland i think we've went to far (the wretched football bill), then ofcourse the other end of the spectrum would be somewhere like China or North Korea, or the Middle East, where saying any kind of dissent towards government might lose you your head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambo-Jimbo Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 Quite but you aren't American, so be thankful. Being American isn't the issue, living in America is. I just don't like the path that country is heading down, it appears to me that they haven't learnt the lessons of the past and things are coming full circle again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 The establishment are determined to remove Trump at any cost. Whether that be with witch-hunt or by the hand of an assassin, who knows. The storm pounding him from the corporate establishment media and beyond is unprecedented. Hypocrisy and duplicity has a new home. This runs much deeper than party politics. So no poor show. You seem sympathetic to Trump and what he stands for? Which is fair enough. Personally I think the guy is a chump and swither between thinking he is simply a Patsy for someone or something that is the real power behind the throne, or that he is for real and if so is a complete loon. Either way the statements he makes are extremely worrying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambo-Jimbo Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 That's the bigger picture. "Counter-protestors" were essentially protesting against the legal, first amendment right when they tried to shut down the alt-right rally. I guess the debate hinges on how much you value your freedom vs Government control. Americans tend to like their freedoms and hate the idea of a nanny state. In Scotland i think we've went to far (the wretched football bill), then ofcourse the other end of the spectrum would be somewhere like China or North Korea, or the Middle East, where saying any kind of dissent towards government might lose you your head. Doesn't the 'Counter-protestors' have a legal right under the First Amendment to protest against whatever they want to protest against? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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