The terrible thing that's happened in america

[Francis Albert]

 

 

Or maybe I don't. But the sky won't fall down if we talk about these things. This idea that history is fixed and should never be discussed or re-evaluated is pretty nuts.

 

 I am not sure anyone has suggested that history should be fixed, and never be discussed or re-evaluated.

[Francis Albert]

The problems with Jefferson are becoming increasingly common knowledge -- in addition to being a slaver there's his treatment of Sally Hemmings. And yes, there are students that shrouded his statue at UVA, the university he personally founded, but that was a protest about adding more context to the university grounds not an actual call for removal. But the Jefferson memorial in Washington isn't going anywhere any time soon.

 

The Confederate monuments, on the other hand, were explicitly put up at the time to reinforce the reign of white supremacy in the US, particularly (but not exclusively) in the US South. The local Richmond paper, an infuriatingly staunchly conservative rag, re-ran its front page from the day in the 1890s when the Lee monument was put up. The paper itself called the presentation of the a bad idea, saying it was over the top and that it would end up being a divisive action and would become a point of conflict in the future. So as I said, it's not even some gap between yesterday's and today's standards that we're judging on -- it's that the white supremacists at the time erected the things over the objections of people making the same arguments that people are today.  It's just a matter of who won that fight then, and who's winning it now.

 

There are no perfect people -- MLK was a serial adulterer and apparently difficult to work with. But there's more to monumentality than who's being depicted -- there's the actual content of the monument and the intent with which it was placed. Lenin was a critically important figure in the defeat of fascism but that's not why his statue was all over Eastern Europe -- those statues, like Confederate monuments erected all over the south, were there to remind certain people who was in charge and to stay in line.

The "problems" with Jefferson have been common knowledge for decades or even in some circles centuries.. The fact that belatedly some with a political agenda have spotted them doesn't in itself change history's judgement on Jefferson. Flawed (as everyone is, especially if judged by later values) but a great figure in American history.

 

Whatever the motivations of those who erected the Confederate statues (and I suspect the motivation was not universally constant) they survived without much controversy for a hundred years and through the belated enactment of civil rights legislation that at least removed the worst extremes of the apartheid system of the South. They have now become a weapon of gesture politics (on both sides) that has little to do with real issues facing real people.

[Ibrahim Tall]

There are no perfect people -- MLK was a serial adulterer and apparently difficult to work with. But there's more to monumentality than who's being depicted -- there's the actual content of the monument and the intent with which it was placed. Lenin was a critically important figure in the defeat of fascism but that's not why his statue was all over Eastern Europe -- those statues, like Confederate monuments erected all over the south, were there to remind certain people who was in charge and to stay in line.

Stalin surely? Lenin was long dead before Hitler even got out of prison.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

The "problems" with Jefferson have been common knowledge for decades or even in some circles centuries.. The fact that belatedly some with a political agenda have spotted them doesn't in itself change history's judgement on Jefferson. Flawed (as everyone is, especially if judged by later values) but a great figure in American history.

 

Whatever the motivations of those who erected the Confederate statues (and I suspect the motivation was not universally constant) they survived without much controversy for a hundred years and through the belated enactment of civil rights legislation that at least removed the worst extremes of the apartheid system of the South. They have now become a weapon of gesture politics (on both sides) that has little to do with real issues facing real people.

 

Knowledge isn't "common" if it's known only in "some circles."  The problems of Jefferson have become common knowledge for decades because of exactly the same kinds of folks trying to take the Confederate monuments down. Howard Zinn did some of the best work on this but he was far from alone. When I was coming through elementary school, "Jefferson the Great" and "Robert E. Lee was anti-slavery" were very much the officially taught versions. 

 

And the part in bold is incorrect. As I documented, there has been controversy about them since they were erected and it has never been a closed issue. I'm 41, I've lived in the South my entire life minus four years in college in the midwest, and there have been rumblings about monuments since I started paying attention. They just came to a head after the Charleston massacre when a lot of us decided that grumbling about it was no longer enough and it was time to be a lot more decisive about it.

 

Stalin surely? Lenin was long dead before Hitler even got out of prison.

 

Of course you're correct. At any rate, I find the way Lenin statues have been treated similarly interesting. Hungary rounded up all of their Communist statutes and put them in a single park.

 

Richmond is, of course, covered with various spaces with some relation to the Confederacy. One of those is Hollywood Cemetery, which has a huge number of graves for Confederate brass.  Just moving the silly monuments there and getting them off of Monument Ave. would be a simple move that would preserve them but get them out of one of the most prominent roads in the city.

[Rocco_Jambo]

Ironically most of the ones that tried to do right were in the military. Multiple generals and colonels negotiated in good faith with indigenous folks only to go back and be completely submarined by Congress.

 

As to taking people off of banknotes or taking down monuments, you don't have to erase people from the history books or never mention their names again. But you also don't have to continue to print their faces millions of times over and put their faces in everyone's wallet when they go to the store to buy beer and peanuts. "Oh but we're judging yesterday's people by today's values" is not only often wrong (there were usually plenty of people at the time who thought it was wrong and weren't shy about saying so) but is the wrong argument, because money and monuments are also about what we choose to valorize today.

The problems is the picking and choosing of certain figures to suit the agendas of certain groups whilst keeping other figures who were just as culpable.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

The problems is the picking and choosing of certain figures to suit the agendas of certain groups whilst keeping other figures who were just as culpable.

 

That's how the putting up or taking down of any monument or commemoration works. It never happens any other way.

[Adam Murray]

That's how the putting up or taking down of any monument or commemoration works. It never happens any other way.

Durham, North Carolina?

[jake]

Really good arguments on both sides.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

Durham, North Carolina?

 

Heh, fair point, but one that almost proves it. The City Council would have absolutely taken that thing down had the NC General Assembly not passed a law saying confederate monuments can't be moved or altered or re-interpreted in anyway. It's an utterly stupid and reactionary law. So the only way that thing could come down was a rope and a heave-ho.

 

And it crumpled like a cheap tin can, didn't it?

 

Love that town so much.

[Sydney]

Aristotle likely got a bit of quid pro quo for young Alexander's 'learning'.

 

Still, today's iconoclasts could do with learning about his principle of competing virtues. 

 

They might find Nietzche however cuts a bit too close to the bone -

 

You preachers of equality, the tyrannomania of impotence clamors thus out of you for equality:your most secret ambitions to be tyrants thus shroud themselves

     

[doctor jambo]

Churchill on the English 5'ers after the carpet bombing of Dresden and the concentration camps in S.Africa.

And his well known racist views.

Get him off them I say!

[Socrates]

Does re-evaluating history equate to rewriting it to suit your (not you per se Socrates) agenda?

 

I'd say it's much more that people who  have been able to write the accepted version of history get very upset when they have to take others' views into account.

 

 

 

 

 

 I am not sure anyone has suggested that history should be fixed, and never be discussed or re-evaluated.

 

 

In which case, what's the problem with discussing whether Confederate statues should be taken down, or whether Jefferson's legacy is more complex than previously accepted?

[doctor jambo]

I'd say it's much more that people who  have been able to write the accepted version of history get very upset when they have to take others' views into account.

 

 

In which case, what's the problem with discussing whether Confederate statues should be taken down, or whether Jefferson's legacy is more complex than previously accepted?

There is no problem with discussing history.

There is, it would appear, a problem with people being upset or offended by history though, or reminders of controversial figures.

The statues, and even the reasons for their construction are part of history- either good or bad.

I find the whole idea of removing these laughable.

Viewing history through modern eyes is daft.

Can people not disagree with something without having to destroy it.

I would struggle to think of a successful historical leader who would stand to scrutiny by modern standards

[Socrates]

There is no problem with discussing history.

There is, it would appear, a problem with people being upset or offended by history though, or reminders of controversial figures.

The statues, and even the reasons for their construction are part of history- either good or bad.

I find the whole idea of removing these laughable.

Viewing history through modern eyes is daft.

Can people not disagree with something without having to destroy it.

I would struggle to think of a successful historical leader who would stand to scrutiny by modern standards

 

This idea that nobody from history would stand up to scrutiny is a load of bollocks.  What it usually means is that some people are offended that people are allowed to scrutinise the records of historical figures - that the legacy of Jefferson or Churchill or Mandela, or whoever is your country's favourite hero, is somehow too precious to be allowed to be criticised.

 

Also, the continued presence of the Confederate statues contributes to the bizarre idea that the Confederacy was anything other than a racist slave state responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths. You can quite easily remove statues that commemorate hate and are designed to remind a group of their place in society without forgetting your history. The Germans have done an excellent job of that with the Nazis, and I doubt that Eastern Europe has forgotten the Communist era just because every town no longer has Lenin in their main square.

[niblick1874]

I wonder if any Americans will find this offensive, or will they just scratch their heads? After all, antifa wave the hammer and sickle. Free speech?

 

Maybe they'll get down on one knee.

 

 https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=WywyRfba&id=57BACC5EB3234E7DDD30BD80E9B0C56F797D6D4A&thid=OIF.CnWeCUgAU7%2f9DdvWbzvmZQ&q=picture+of+communism+will+win+in+hat&simid=74467025212&selectedIndex=0&ajaxhist=0

[Francis Albert]

This idea that nobody from history would stand up to scrutiny is a load of bollocks.  What it usually means is that some people are offended that people are allowed to scrutinise the records of historical figures - that the legacy of Jefferson or Churchill or Mandela, or whoever is your country's favourite hero, is somehow too precious to be allowed to be criticised.

 

Also, the continued presence of the Confederate statues contributes to the bizarre idea that the Confederacy was anything other than a racist slave state responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths. You can quite easily remove statues that commemorate hate and are designed to remind a group of their place in society without forgetting your history. The Germans have done an excellent job of that with the Nazis, and I doubt that Eastern Europe has forgotten the Communist era just because every town no longer has Lenin in their main square.

No-one is suggesting we should not criticise historical figures.

 

Monuments and bank notes honouring Jefferson and other Founding Fathers could be argued to contribute to the bizarre idea that the United States was created on the principle that all men (well yes it would have to be all men) are created equal and should enjoy liberty and the pursuit of happiness. It wasn't, by today's standards, and we recognise that.

 

As for the excellent job the Germans have done, I visited the German national museum on the Unter den Linden a few years ago. It was actually quite difficult to find anything about the Nazi era - there were just a few cabinets with Nazi memorabilia and a model of Auschwitz which was rather hidden in a corner. And  Germans have of course just voted in large numbers for a neo-Nazi party.  In Poland the role of Poles in the Holocaust, for the most part less than honourable, is not well documented or remembered.

[elvoys]

Pittsburgh Kneelers

Green Bay Slackers

 

Two appropriate name changes to go with their new direction.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

Deleted comment -- thought better of it. 

[niblick1874]

40 million views so far. 

 

 

I sometimes think they really are that stupid but it doesn't last that long. It's not that they think they are winning over anyone with everything they are doing, they know they're not and that's not their goal. What they are purposely doing is polarizing while ramping up the hate on both sides. 

[Geoff the Mince]

40 million views so far. 

 

 

I sometimes think they really are that stupid but it doesn't last that long. It's not that they think they are winning over anyone with everything they are doing, they know they're not and that's not their goal. What they are purposely doing is polarizing while ramping up the hate on both sides.

 

Well said that man ,

 

Maybe the Chicago Sports teams should protest against the out of control gun crime in thier city .

[jake]

It seems some things are more acceptable to say than the truth these days

[elvoys]

Pittsburgh Kneelers

Green Bay Slackers

 

Two appropriate name changes to go with their new direction.

Absolutely nowt. Its a silly, boring game with silly names.

 

Almost as silly as 300 pound meetcakes paid millions to batter into one another thinking they have missed their revolutionary calling in life.

 

Suppose though when the Pres is the you're fired guy it makes some sense.

[elvoys]

You have no idea what these individuals are like and what they have gone through in life to reach a position of privilege.

 

They understand their position in communities and that is why they protest.

 

Every post you make you come across more and more like a boring little bigot.

 

Yawn, yawn, yawn. Privilege, systemic, communities, oppression blah blah  topped off with the nuclear buzzword at the end.

 

It's funny how nobody is calling Trump 'divisive' on this issue when he yacks on about wanting uniformity behind a flag. It's almost like its just a card played by the usual crowd when it suits them - a cheap  appeal to emotion over logic.

 

And just for the record, you asked what's wrong with being a card carrying communist a few posts back so I'll take your character condemnations with a pinch of salt.

 

More close to home I await with anticipation Jamie Walker's position on the modern plight of the Scottish working class. It is vital these communities are heard through the symbolic stances of a twenty something football player.