The terrible thing that's happened in america

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

That's actually a really insightful point--it is definitely a perception thing.  People with motivated reasoning perceive a media to be "liberal" that is owned by like five major, multi-billion dollar corporations.  We are, of course, receiving news from these corporations that fits a corporatist ideal for the USA and the world, but because of "perception management", millions have become convinced that it's in fact pushing a socialist, left-wing agenda.  The Orwellian nature of it all is galling.

 

You're overlooking social media which is, in its most prominent parts, very liberal and left wing.

 

The fact that the Mail/Sun/Express/Telegraph failed so badly to influence the outcome of the recent general election tells you that the reach of traditional media (certainly in the UK) is changing.

[Justin Z]

But the nature of social media is in the name.  It's down to individuals.  It's a balance in the internet era that I'm extremely thankful for, but it can't be compared to the mass media and the machinations thereof because it's a million moving, individual parts--not industry, the financial sector and so many more vertically and horizontally integrated conglomerates getting their message about what is good and what is bad for society out to all of us.

[maroonlegions]

Trump is not really making any favours with such people.

 

Alienation of the non white populace of such states as Charlottesville  seems to be his goal.

 

 

The world is not stupid to his ponderings of the far right, his neo con attributes, in regards to his media personas is becoming clearer after incidents like Charlottesville.

 

Merck & Co Inc Chief Executive Kenneth Frasier resigned from U.S. President Donald Trump's American Manufacturing Council, saying he was taking a stand against intolerance and extremism. http://reut.rs/2w5XakN

[maroonlegions]

Nicely done.

 

But "in defence of the Jewish people"? What does that mean?

 

Nazsium has many faces ,and if anything the Jewish people are one race that is attributed to such fascism, Anonymous just reminding fascists and neo nazis  of the dangers that white or race supremacy can manifest.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

Trump is not really making any favours with such people.

 

Alienation of the non white populace of such states as Charlottesville  seems to be his goal.

 

 

The world is not stupid to his ponderings of the far right, his neo con attributes, in regards to his media personas is becoming clearer after incidents like Charlottesville.

 

Merck & Co Inc Chief Executive Kenneth Frasier resigned from U.S. President Donald Trump's American Manufacturing Council, saying he was taking a stand against intolerance and extremism. http://reut.rs/2w5XakN

 

Trump has just spat the dummy out over this, latest twitter post.

"Now that Ken Frazier of Merck Pharma has resigned from President's Manufacturing Council,he will have more time to LOWER RIPOFF DRUG PRICES!"

[Greenbank2]

I spent 5 wonderful days in and around Charlottesville last summer on holiday. It is a fantastic little city and the people were overwhelmingly warm and kind. The University of Virginia campus is stunning and oozes history. It is as cerebral as Harvard, Stanford etc. I just can't reconcile what happened there with the city I spent just under a week in last year. Another point of irony; The plantation home of Thomas Jefferson, Montecello, is on the outskirts of Charlottesville. Visiting the estate is a wonderful historic education, and although Jefferson was a founding father and the principle author of the Declaration of Independence, he was deeply compromised by being a slave owner. He knew this and it troubled him, but his economic prosperity depended on it. A visitor to MOntecello can learn that it is believed that Jefferson fathered children to one of his slaves, and there is speculation that the relationship was not necessarily consensual as she was his "property". The irony is that although Jefferson was a great man, he had his flaws - yet Charlottesville is full of statues of him and Montecello is one of the USA's most historic sites and tourist attractions. As for Robert E. Lee, and it has been said in earlier posts, he was deeply compromised by his choice to fight for the South and only agreed to do so as the Commonwealth of Virginia was his home state.

 

I am deeply troubled that this has happened in somewhere I know well and where I have great memories. I am sure that those uncder the banner of alt.right are not representative of Charlottesville or Virginia which remains one of my favourite states.

[maroonlegions]

To all the racists, fascists and neo nazis, this is the kind of feckwit that is in your gang.

                                                                   

 

                                                               

 

 

 

"You're not from round these parts are ye"

 

[Sharpie]

To all the racists, fascists and neo nazis, this is the kind of feckwit that is in your gang.

                                                                   

 

                                                               

 

 

 

"You're not from round these parts are ye"

 

 

To all the racists, fascists and neo nazis, this is the kind of feckwit that is in your gang.

                                                                   

 

                                                               

 

 

 

"You're not from round these parts are ye"

 

 

I think that is a poor example of your point, I think he is being used to prove a point because of his appearance , and my reading of the individual is that he may have mental problems, and to put it in the language of my youth, "may not be all there" I think that whoever is responsible either for his views or his picture are in fact responsible for using this ill equipped individual for their chosen purpose.  If he is in fact what his picture portrays to me he would have in the time of the nazi's possibly have been used by the well known nazi Dr Mengele for his cruel experiments on mentally challenged individuals. As I have commented to another poster in the past more credence to your posts would be rec eived if you posted your own considered opinion and did not rely on others information provided on links.

 

Using a mentally retarded person as the butt of a joke is as offensive to me as racism.

[alwaysthereinspirit]

Wasn't the decision to remove Lee's statue taken before the Trump regime?

 

Let's face it, the Confederates lost, they were the "bad guys", and despite any honour that Lee may quite rightly deserve, he represents a regime that backed slavery.

 

So, I can understand why monuments to that regime should no longer exist. But that's my less than extensively researched argument on it.

 

In the fall out, trump was hardly equivecobal in his criticism of the terror attack. Because that's what it was, right?

We still have Nazi stuff in German museums. You can visit Hitlers bunker. We should never try to eradicate history. Good or bad. German schools still teach their children about world war II and all things related to it. I don't think its smart to eliminate whats already passed. Maybe I'm wrong but that's my opinion.

[maroonlegions]

I think that is a poor example of your point, I think he is being used to prove a point because of his appearance , and my reading of the individual is that he may have mental problems, and to put it in the language of my youth, "may not be all there" I think that whoever is responsible either for his views or his picture are in fact responsible for using this ill equipped individual for their chosen purpose.  If he is in fact what his picture portrays to me he would have in the time of the nazi's possibly have been used by the well known nazi Dr Mengele for his cruel experiments on mentally challenged individuals. As I have commented to another poster in the past more credence to your posts would be rec eived if you posted your own considered opinion and did not rely on others information provided on links.

 

Using a mentally retarded person as the butt of a joke is as offensive to me as racism.

 So after your rant above you have zero evidence to prove that this individual has mental problems.

 

Feck all diddy squat in fact. 

 

Then as usual you get the essence of what you are really aiming at and that is a sly personal dig at me, sneaky wee man that you are.

 

Lets get this straight on the credence of my posts, you  are  actually arguing  that i post no opinion of my own ?

 

Seriously mate,you are talking like a troll.

 

Pull up one fecking post of mine that does NOT contain my own personal view/s on what i am posting about,some  of my posts contain ,links and snippets from  them after my own personal views  that are outwith any links or quotes from them but relate to them.

 

My wife used to work with mentally handicapped children mate, in fact one of my cousins has this unfortunate condition and i would never make fun of anyone who suffers from such disabilities.

 

That image was about mocking fascists and nazis by using someone who looks like a redneck hillbilly., that is my perception of it.

 

What i do find repulsive about your post to me is you using it to attack me mate based on a assumption and trying to use that assumption to attack me personally.  

 

I posted that image with the perception that most racists have the fecking "IDIOT" following , you know the thick bagrade . 

 

I had the perception that the image was to take the piss out of fascists and neo nazis that is all nothing more ,nothing less . 

 

If it turns out that these vile fascist pigs do use such mentally handicapped individuals in their sick propaganda ,then the system has failed such unfortunate individuals and makes me hate  neo nazi and fascist  groups and individuals even more.

 

 I had the perception and comprehension  that the image was to take the piss out of fascists and neo nazis from the thick hillbilly perspective , that was  all ,nothing more ,nothing less, but you knew that already eh.

[Boris]

We still have Nazi stuff in German museums. You can visit Hitlers bunker. We should never try to eradicate history. Good or bad. German schools still teach their children about world war II and all things related to it. I don't think its smart to eliminate whats already passed. Maybe I'm wrong but that's my opinion.

Are there any nazi statues left in Germany? Or Soviet statues in what was east Germany, or Poland?

 

Quite right. It is taught and relics, for want of a phrase, are housed in museums, where no doubt the story and context of them is told. Likely there are such museums in the USA in respect of the civil war.

 

But as I said, it's not about Lee per se, rather what those that venerate it stand for. IMO, of course.

[Sharpie]

 So after your rant above you have zero evidence to prove that this individual has mental problems.

 

Feck all diddy squat in fact. 

 

Then as usual you get the essence of what you are really aiming at and that is a sly personal dig at me, sneaky wee man that you are.

 

Lets get this straight on the credence of my posts, you  are  actually arguing  that i post no opinion of my own ?

 

Seriously mate,you are talking like a troll.

 

Pull up one fecking post of mine that does NOT contain my own personal view/s on what i am posting about,some  of my posts contain ,links and snippets from  them after my own personal views  that are outwith any links or quotes from them but relate to them.

 

My wife used to work with mentally handicapped children mate, in fact one of my cousins has this unfortunate condition and i would never make fun of anyone who suffers from such disabilities.

 

That image was about mocking fascists and nazis by using someone who looks like a redneck hillbilly., that is my perception of it.

 

What i do find repulsive about your post to me is you using it to attack me mate based on a assumption and trying to use that assumption to attack me personally.  

 

I posted that image with the perception that most racists have the fecking "IDIOT" following , you know the thick bagrade . 

 

I had the perception that the image was to take the piss out of fascists and neo nazis that is all nothing more ,nothing less . 

 

If it turns out that these vile fascist pigs do use such mentally handicapped individuals in their sick propaganda ,then the system has failed such unfortunate individuals and makes me hate  neo nazi and fascist  groups and individuals even more.

 

 I had the perception and comprehension  that the image was to take the piss out of fascists and neo nazis from the thick hillbilly perspective , that was  all ,nothing more ,nothing less, but you knew that already eh.

 

Please be advise that I have read with care your stated opinion of the subject matter. In this defence of your undefensible assertion that this poor individual is a typical hillbilly as opposed to an individual with mental problems is to say weak, in my humble opinion. However what I can state with absolutely no dubiety, is that if I ever, have the opportunity to meet you, I would humbly request that you refer to me, to my face, by calling me a sneaky wee man. after proper debate, discussion and by example I am sure I could convince you that again your opinion is very, very wrong.,

[Ulysses]

 ....sneaky wee man that you are....

 

You should apologise for that, though to be honest I am so used to your particular combination of malice and stupidity that I would be surprised beyond words if you did.

 

Bob is a good guy, He's often shown himself to be decent, honourable, and considered in his views. 

 

For the avoidance of any doubt, that makes Bob very, very different indeed to you.

 

Most people could learn a lot from him.

 

Except you.

 

You couldn't learn anything from Bob.

 

You couldn't learn anything from anyone or anything.

[Bridge of Djoum]

You should apologise for that, though to be honest I am so used to your particular combination of malice and stupidity that I would be surprised beyond words if you did.

 

Bob is a good guy, He's often shown himself to be decent, honourable, and considered in his views. 

 

For the avoidance of any doubt, that makes Bob very, very different indeed to you.

 

Most people could learn a lot from him.

 

Except you.

 

You couldn't learn anything from Bob.

 

You couldn't learn anything from anyone or anything.

[Ulysses]

In other news, I see that Trump has finally been forced to issue a statement to try to persuade people that he actually condemns this stuff.

 

 

Yeah, right. 

[deesidejambo]

You should apologise for that, though to be honest I am so used to your particular combination of malice and stupidity that I would be surprised beyond words if you did.

 

Bob is a good guy, He's often shown himself to be decent, honourable, and considered in his views. 

 

For the avoidance of any doubt, that makes Bob very, very different indeed to you.

 

Most people could learn a lot from him.

 

Except you.

 

You couldn't learn anything from Bob.

 

You couldn't learn anything from anyone or anything.

Indeed this thread was going well with pretty strong debate from many sides but everyone respecting each other.

 

Until ML turned up with the usual memes.

 

He should stick to his aliens making crop circles.

[Bridge of Djoum]

 So after your rant above you have zero evidence to prove that this individual has mental problems.

 

Feck all diddy squat in fact. 

 

Then as usual you get the essence of what you are really aiming at and that is a sly personal dig at me, sneaky wee man that you are.

 

Lets get this straight on the credence of my posts, you  are  actually arguing  that i post no opinion of my own ?

 

Seriously mate,you are talking like a troll.

 

Pull up one fecking post of mine that does NOT contain my own personal view/s on what i am posting about,some  of my posts contain ,links and snippets from  them after my own personal views  that are outwith any links or quotes from them but relate to them.

 

My wife used to work with mentally handicapped children mate, in fact one of my cousins has this unfortunate condition and i would never make fun of anyone who suffers from such disabilities.

 

That image was about mocking fascists and nazis by using someone who looks like a redneck hillbilly., that is my perception of it.

 

What i do find repulsive about your post to me is you using it to attack me mate based on a assumption and trying to use that assumption to attack me personally.  

 

I posted that image with the perception that most racists have the fecking "IDIOT" following , you know the thick bagrade . 

 

I had the perception that the image was to take the piss out of fascists and neo nazis that is all nothing more ,nothing less . 

 

If it turns out that these vile fascist pigs do use such mentally handicapped individuals in their sick propaganda ,then the system has failed such unfortunate individuals and makes me hate  neo nazi and fascist  groups and individuals even more.

 

 I had the perception and comprehension  that the image was to take the piss out of fascists and neo nazis from the thick hillbilly perspective , that was  all ,nothing more ,nothing less, but you knew that already eh.

We should make a statue of this post to show people how not to behave during a discussion between adults.

 

Even for you, this is truly embarrassing.

[elvoys]

Much less of a problem with this than the Rhodes must fall mob who came over to a free place in Oxford uni from SA or Zimbabwe, a uni working class white UK boys are less likely to see than kids of Paraguayan goat herders, and then they demand the tearing down of a statue of a guy in whose name their bloody paid for scholarship is!

 

Sometimes an unpunctuated rant just doesn't meet the venting requirements.

[redm]

 

 

How do you become someone like this? Seriously? What needs to happen in your life to make you the sort of person who is desperate to inflict massive amounts of pain on innocent people? To ramp up the cruelty on people who are already completely devastated because of something your group or 'brethren' caused?

 

Vile isn't strong enough. Repulsive, disgusting, wicked...they aren't strong enough words either. I don't know how you even begin to describe this type of person. Or people, even. There's loads of them. Argh.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

 

 

How do you become someone like this? Seriously? What needs to happen in your life to make you the sort of person who is desperate to inflict massive amounts of pain on innocent people? To ramp up the cruelty on people who are already completely devastated because of something your group or 'brethren' caused?

 

Vile isn't strong enough. Repulsive, disgusting, wicked...they aren't strong enough words either. I don't know how you even begin to describe this type of person. Or people, even. There's loads of them. Argh.

If you want an answer it is actually quite close to home. These people are tribal, they feel persecuted and left behind by society and find comfort in the fact that their tribe is full of other such people. The "enemy" is the do gooding liberal, the same skin colour as them but acting like a "traitor" because she is supporting the people they felt advantaged over.

 

In many ways, working class Ulster protestants have parallels here. They rank lower in educational achievement, have fewer job opportunities as a consequence and feel marginalised, yet liberal intelligensia sneer at them as opposed to "helping" (see the reaction to the DUP vote as an example).

[Ulysses]

If you want an answer it is actually quite close to home. These people are tribal, they feel persecuted and left behind by society and find comfort in the fact that their tribe is full of other such people. The "enemy" is the do gooding liberal, the same skin colour as them but acting like a "traitor" because she is supporting the people they felt advantaged over.

 

In many ways, working class Ulster protestants have parallels here. They rank lower in educational achievement, have fewer job opportunities as a consequence and feel marginalised, yet liberal intelligensia sneer at them as opposed to "helping" (see the reaction to the DUP vote as an example).

 

So ****ing what?

 

Respectful handling of the remains of the dead is one of the very few things that genuinely marks humans apart from every other species on the planet.

 

If they can't respect a funeral, they don't share the same human perspective that separates us from every other species on the planet.

 

I guess that means it's time for the ****ers to evolve.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

So ****ing what?

 

Respectful handling of the remains of the dead is one of the very few things that genuinely marks humans apart from every other species on the planet.

 

If they can't respect a funeral, they don't share the same human perspective that separates us from every other species on the planet.

 

I guess that means it's time for the ****ers to evolve.

I'm not saying they are right FFS, I'm trying to give a perspective for their groupthink, which was the subject of the post I replied to.

[Ulysses]

I'm not saying they are right FFS, I'm trying to give a perspective for their groupthink, which was the subject of the post I replied to.

 

I know you aren't, but in fairness I think redm already gets the point about alienation and marginalisation.  Her question was about why these extremists feel it's OK to dehumanise people who have a different world view.  We all know what that kind of behaviour leads to when carried to its extreme.

 

And in any case, when did Ulster Protestants ever "counter-protest" funerals?  Michael Stone might count as an instance, but apart from that?

[luckyBatistuta]

Are there any nazi statues left in Germany? Or Soviet statues in what was east Germany, or Poland?

Quite right. It is taught and relics, for want of a phrase, are housed in museums, where no doubt the story and context of them is told. Likely there are such museums in the USA in respect of the civil war.

But as I said, it's not about Lee per se, rather what those that venerate it stand for. IMO, of course.

There are statues of these fine individuals...

 

?Indians and wolves are both beasts of prey, tho? they differ in shape.?

 

George Washington

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

?If ever we are constrained to lift the hatchet against any tribe, we will never lay it down till that tribe is exterminated, or driven beyond the Mississippi? in war, they will kill some of us; we shall destroy them all.?

 

Thomas Jefferson

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

?My original convictions upon this subject have been confirmed by the course of events for several years, and experience is every day adding to their strength. That those tribes cannot exist surrounded by our settlements and in continual contact with our citizens is certain. They have neither the intelligence, the industry, the moral habits, nor the desire of improvement which are essential to any favorable change in their condition. Established in the midst of another and a superior race, and without appreciating the causes of their inferiority or seeking to control them, they must necessarily yield to the force of circumstances and ere long disappear.?

 

Andrew Jackson

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

?Ordered that of the Indians and Half-breeds sentenced to be hanged by the military commission, composed of Colonel Crooks, Lt. Colonel Marshall, Captain Grant, Captain Bailey, and Lieutenant Olin, and lately sitting in Minnesota, you cause to be executed on Friday the nineteenth day of December, instant, the following names, to wit? ?Text from President Lincoln to General Sibley ordering the execution of American Indians in Minnesota.

 

Abraham Lincoln

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

?I DON?T GO SO FAR AS TO THINK THAT THE ONLY GOOD INDIANS ARE DEAD INDIANS, BUT I BELIEVE NINE OUT OF TEN ARE, AND I SHOULDN?T LIKE TO INQUIRE TOO CLOSELY INTO THE CASE OF THE TENTH.?

 

Theodore Roosevelt

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

I know you aren't, but in fairness I think redm already gets the point about alienation and marginalisation. Her question was about why these extremists feel it's OK to dehumanise people who have a different world view. We all know what that kind of behaviour leads to when carried to its extreme.

 

And in any case, when did Ulster Protestants ever "counter-protest" funerals? Michael Stone might count as an instance, but apart from that?

Yes, the funeral behaviour is bizarre. Maybe they're inspired by the Westboro Baptists?

[Ulysses]

Yes, the funeral behaviour is bizarre. Maybe they're inspired by the Westboro Baptists?

 

I'd imagine there's quite a lot of cross-pollination of ideas going on among the various headbanger and extremist groups. 

[Captain Sausage]

There are statues of these fine individuals...

 

?Indians and wolves are both beasts of prey, tho? they differ in shape.?

 

George Washington

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

?If ever we are constrained to lift the hatchet against any tribe, we will never lay it down till that tribe is exterminated, or driven beyond the Mississippi? in war, they will kill some of us; we shall destroy them all.?

 

Thomas Jefferson

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

?My original convictions upon this subject have been confirmed by the course of events for several years, and experience is every day adding to their strength. That those tribes cannot exist surrounded by our settlements and in continual contact with our citizens is certain. They have neither the intelligence, the industry, the moral habits, nor the desire of improvement which are essential to any favorable change in their condition. Established in the midst of another and a superior race, and without appreciating the causes of their inferiority or seeking to control them, they must necessarily yield to the force of circumstances and ere long disappear.?

 

Andrew Jackson

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

?Ordered that of the Indians and Half-breeds sentenced to be hanged by the military commission, composed of Colonel Crooks, Lt. Colonel Marshall, Captain Grant, Captain Bailey, and Lieutenant Olin, and lately sitting in Minnesota, you cause to be executed on Friday the nineteenth day of December, instant, the following names, to wit? ?Text from President Lincoln to General Sibley ordering the execution of American Indians in Minnesota.

 

Abraham Lincoln

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

?I DON?T GO SO FAR AS TO THINK THAT THE ONLY GOOD INDIANS ARE DEAD INDIANS, BUT I BELIEVE NINE OUT OF TEN ARE, AND I SHOULDN?T LIKE TO INQUIRE TOO CLOSELY INTO THE CASE OF THE TENTH.?

 

Theodore Roosevelt

Interesting quotes.

 

Judging people so far in the past on modern standards is just ridiculous. The fact that people would be offended by Gen Lee is taking the piss, much like Rhodes.

 

Society moves on, but these quotes and opinions are stuck in the past, obviously.

 

I wonder if the same protestors would openly support the tearing down of the Lincoln memorial or the removal of GW from the $1 bill.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Interesting quotes.

 

Judging people so far in the past on modern standards is just ridiculous. The fact that people would be offended by Gen Lee is taking the piss, much like Rhodes.

 

Society moves on, but these quotes and opinions are stuck in the past, obviously.

 

I wonder if the same protestors would openly support the tearing down of the Lincoln memorial or the removal of GW from the $1 bill.

To me it is another example of history being written by the winners. However, if that's what people voted for then so be it.

[Bridge of Djoum]

There are statues of these fine individuals...

 

?Indians and wolves are both beasts of prey, tho? they differ in shape.?

 

George Washington

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

?If ever we are constrained to lift the hatchet against any tribe, we will never lay it down till that tribe is exterminated, or driven beyond the Mississippi? in war, they will kill some of us; we shall destroy them all.?

 

Thomas Jefferson

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

?My original convictions upon this subject have been confirmed by the course of events for several years, and experience is every day adding to their strength. That those tribes cannot exist surrounded by our settlements and in continual contact with our citizens is certain. They have neither the intelligence, the industry, the moral habits, nor the desire of improvement which are essential to any favorable change in their condition. Established in the midst of another and a superior race, and without appreciating the causes of their inferiority or seeking to control them, they must necessarily yield to the force of circumstances and ere long disappear.?

 

Andrew Jackson

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

?Ordered that of the Indians and Half-breeds sentenced to be hanged by the military commission, composed of Colonel Crooks, Lt. Colonel Marshall, Captain Grant, Captain Bailey, and Lieutenant Olin, and lately sitting in Minnesota, you cause to be executed on Friday the nineteenth day of December, instant, the following names, to wit? ?Text from President Lincoln to General Sibley ordering the execution of American Indians in Minnesota.

 

Abraham Lincoln

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

?I DON?T GO SO FAR AS TO THINK THAT THE ONLY GOOD INDIANS ARE DEAD INDIANS, BUT I BELIEVE NINE OUT OF TEN ARE, AND I SHOULDN?T LIKE TO INQUIRE TOO CLOSELY INTO THE CASE OF THE TENTH.?

 

Theodore Roosevelt

Sent from his iPhone?

[Devi]

Agreed in the case of actual historical artefacts.

 

In the case of statues that were hastily commissioned in the 1950s and 60s in direct response to the Black Civil Rights Movement? That's just the South being the South and hanging on to racism and old ways that we ought to have been shot of over here decades ago.

 

If any of these monuments were historical, period pieces? Totally different. But they're not.

It seems strange that people cannot see the difference between historical artefact and a statue celebrating a historical figure.

Artefacts are the items we see in museums and as such can use to educate.

The examples given re historical places are also facts not monuments built to celebrate people or times.

 

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

[Peebo]

There are statues of these fine individuals...

 

?Indians and wolves are both beasts of prey, tho? they differ in shape.?

 

George Washington

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

?If ever we are constrained to lift the hatchet against any tribe, we will never lay it down till that tribe is exterminated, or driven beyond the Mississippi? in war, they will kill some of us; we shall destroy them all.?

 

Thomas Jefferson

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

?My original convictions upon this subject have been confirmed by the course of events for several years, and experience is every day adding to their strength. That those tribes cannot exist surrounded by our settlements and in continual contact with our citizens is certain. They have neither the intelligence, the industry, the moral habits, nor the desire of improvement which are essential to any favorable change in their condition. Established in the midst of another and a superior race, and without appreciating the causes of their inferiority or seeking to control them, they must necessarily yield to the force of circumstances and ere long disappear.?

 

Andrew Jackson

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

?Ordered that of the Indians and Half-breeds sentenced to be hanged by the military commission, composed of Colonel Crooks, Lt. Colonel Marshall, Captain Grant, Captain Bailey, and Lieutenant Olin, and lately sitting in Minnesota, you cause to be executed on Friday the nineteenth day of December, instant, the following names, to wit? ?Text from President Lincoln to General Sibley ordering the execution of American Indians in Minnesota.

 

Abraham Lincoln

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

?I DON?T GO SO FAR AS TO THINK THAT THE ONLY GOOD INDIANS ARE DEAD INDIANS, BUT I BELIEVE NINE OUT OF TEN ARE, AND I SHOULDN?T LIKE TO INQUIRE TOO CLOSELY INTO THE CASE OF THE TENTH.?

 

Theodore Roosevelt

Of course, Indian reservations across the US are covered with statues of these guys. Actually, no they are not.

[luckyBatistuta]

Interesting quotes.

Judging people so far in the past on modern standards is just ridiculous. The fact that people would be offended by Gen Lee is taking the piss, much like Rhodes.

Society moves on, but these quotes and opinions are stuck in the past, obviously.

I wonder if the same protestors would openly support the tearing down of the Lincoln memorial or the removal of GW from the $1 bill.

  

I'm not judging them, just putting a different slant on this, but there are plenty judging this General Lee from the past, but failing to mention these guys and their statues.

 

Of course, Indian reservations across the US are covered with statues of these guys. Actually, no they are not.

Again, why a reservation?

Why does it matter if it's on or not on a reservation?

[Peebo]

 

I'm not judging them, just putting a different slant on this, but there are plenty judging this General Lee from the past, but failing to mention these guys and their statues.

 

 

Again, why a reservation?

Why does it matter if it's on or not on a reservation?

Again, because Native Americans don't have much political influence outside of them!

[luckyBatistuta]

Again, because Native Americans don't have much political influence outside of them!

So do you think that makes it alright then...I don't. The only reason they are on a reservation is because they were raped,tortured,massacred and forced on to these reservations. These individuals were involved in some of this too, but these statues are of people from the past and we all need to move on from it. I'm just trying to highlight that there are people bringing up events from Lee's life as a reason to take it down, but yet think it's ok to have statues of the others.

[Peebo]

So do you think that makes it alright then...I don't. The only reason they are on a reservation is because they were raped,tortured,massacred and forced on to these reservations. These individuals were involved in some of this too, but these statues are of people from the past and we all need to move on from it. I'm just trying to highlight that there are people bringing up events from Lee's life as a reason to take it down, but yet think it's ok to have statues of the others.

If people don't think it's right, then they are entitled to get political momentum behind that belief, and have democratic decisions made to remove particular things. Seems fair enough to me. I don't really get how people apparently fail to understand or accept that.

[luckyBatistuta]

If people don't think it's right, then they are entitled to get political momentum behind that belief, and have democratic decisions made to remove particular things. Seems fair enough to me. I don't really get how people apparently fail to understand or accept that.

Yet you know that is never going to happen,

 

1/ Do you think... Lee statue should be removed/ let it remain/ not bothered?

 

2/ Do you think... These other statues should be removed/ let them remain/ not bothered?

 

I'm not bothered whether they all remain or not, as I don't have to live there, just think there is a tad of hypocrisy to it all.

[Peebo]

Yet you know that is never going to happen,

 

1/ Do you think... Lee statue should be removed/ let it remain/ not bothered?

 

2/ Do you think... These other statues should be removed/ let them remain/ not bothered?

 

I'm not bothered whether they all remain or not, as I don't have to live there, just think there is a tad of hypocrisy to it all.

1) Not bothered. If the residents of a city want to remove it, then remove it. And I can understand why they do, in this case.

 

2) Not bothered. It would be a shame for historically significant statues and monuments to be taken down left, right and centre, but that's not actually happening.

[Boris]

  

I'm not judging them, just putting a different slant on this, but there are plenty judging this General Lee from the past, but failing to mention these guys and their statues.

 

 

If you have read what i posted earlier, I don't think that the issue isn't about Lee the person, it's about what the statue represents to its followers.  It's a symbol of the Confederacy and all that it stood for, and not an homage to a man who although on the losing side was by all accounts a gentleman.

 

That's how it appears to me, at least.

[Peebo]

If you have read what i posted earlier, I don't think that the issue isn't about Lee the person, it's about what the statue represents to its followers. It's a symbol of the Confederacy and all that it stood for, and not an homage to a man who although on the losing side was by all accounts a gentleman.

 

That's how it appears to me, at least.

Indeed. As I also said earlier, anyone who understands symbology in the South should understand why people may decide to take such a statue down.

[doctor jambo]

Yet you know that is never going to happen,

 

1/ Do you think... Lee statue should be removed/ let it remain/ not bothered?

 

2/ Do you think... These other statues should be removed/ let them remain/ not bothered?

 

I'm not bothered whether they all remain or not, as I don't have to live there, just think there is a tad of hypocrisy to it all.

Of course there is a lot of hypocrisy in it.

I would agree that no further statues of Lee should be  raised, but I cannot agree with the idea he should be taken down.

IN much the same way as the cenotaph in London was vandalised by people who disagreed with it being there,

History is never black and white- hero one minute and villain the next and we re-write those roles regularly depending on what is "popular" at the time.

Churchill and his bombing of Dresden for instance, and his somewhat racist views.

This is politicians in America manipulating both sides for political gains- divide and rule

Over a statue hardly any of those getting so het up would even have known was there

Politics at its grubbiest

Its not like after Indyref the "No" lot campaigned for the Wallace monument to be "moved"

[doctor jambo]

And when linked to another thread where google are skewing the results of searches to increase the representation of black americans impact on the country,

you can understand why certain groups perceive themselves as under siege.

[luckyBatistuta]

1) Not bothered. If the residents of a city want to remove it, then remove it. And I can understand why they do, in this case.

2) Not bothered. It would be a shame for historically significant statues and monuments to be taken down left, right and centre, but that's not actually happening.

  

If you have read what i posted earlier, I don't think that the issue isn't about Lee the person, it's about what the statue represents to its followers.  It's a symbol of the Confederacy and all that it stood for, and not an homage to a man who although on the losing side was by all accounts a gentleman.

 

That's how it appears to me, at least.

I do get why all these confederate statues started being erected, but how is it completely different to the others I mentioned. Some of these were built after they massacred the indigenous population and after the Civil War, how must that have felt to these people seeing them. I've read countless times online though that if it was built after the war, it should be taken down.

 

I know you lived there and have a greater insight in to life there Peebo, not looking to fall out with you, just putting my thoughts across.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

IN much the same way as the cenotaph in London was vandalised by people who disagreed with it being there,

 

The people who did that are laughably ignorant. I don't give a **** what their 'world views' are - they're a set of stupid ***** and should be called out as such.

[doctor jambo]

The people who did that are laughably ignorant. I don't give a **** what their 'world views' are - they're a set of stupid ***** and should be called out as such.

 

The people who did that are laughably ignorant. I don't give a **** what their 'world views' are - they're a set of stupid ***** and should be called out as such.

As should many of those on both sides of the Charlottesville protests.

The bigger issue here is the marginalisation, division and frustrations of the poor, regardless of colour or race.

They feel trapped and frustrated- and when the little bits of "pride" and "culture"  they cling onto are being taken away - then this is what you get

[Peebo]

I do get why all these confederate statues started being erected, but how is it completely different to the others I mentioned. Some of these were built after they massacred the indigenous population and after the Civil War, how must that have felt to these people seeing them. I've read countless times online though that if it was built after the war, it should be taken down.

 

I know you lived there and have a greater insight in to life there Peebo, not looking to fall out with you, just putting my thoughts across.

How is it different? The Charlottesville city council has control over what is in its municipal parks!

[Governor Tarkin]

Shocking the number of seemingly sensible people willing to pander to white supremacists in this thread. Feels strangely like dinner table racism, something I never imagined really existed outside the U.S.

Nobody's pandering to whte supremacists so you can withdraw that horrific accusation aye.

 

You're an American, most folk on this thread are not, of course you are going to be viewing this issue through different lenses. Our points of departure are miles apart. Peebo nails it when he talks about context. This is obviously an issue you feel strongly about, but bear that in mind before you start branding people as facist sympathisers.

[luckyBatistuta]

How is it different? The Charlottesville city council has control over what is in its municipal parks!

It's not just Charlottesville though, others have been removed and others to follow, yet the others will remain...that's hypocrisy imo. Does everybody have to agree with what a council decides is right...even the council weren't unanimous on their decision.

[Peebo]

It's not just Charlottesville though, others have been removed and others to follow, yet the others will remain...that's hypocrisy imo. Does everybody have to agree with what a council decides is right...even the council weren't unanimous on their decision.

Some cities choose to remove, others do not. I fail to see the hypocrisy. I see democracy-based decision making.

[doctor jambo]

Nobody's pandering to whte supremacists so you can withdraw that horrific accusation aye.

 

You're an American, most folk on this thread are not, of course you are going to be viewing this issue through different lenses. Our points of departure are miles apart. Peebo nails it when he talks about context. This is obviously an issue you feel strongly about, but bear that in mind before you start branding people as facist sympathisers.

Especially with the American history of supporting Irish Republicanism/ terrorism,

which Scotland is still suffering all these years later

Americans do not have monopoly on race politics

We still have our little marches, bands and songs

and is been a trifling 400 years for us to all stop the nonsense

[Governor Tarkin]

 

 

You should apologise for that, though to be honest I am so used to your particular combination of malice and stupidity that I would be surprised beyond words if you did.

 

Bob is a good guy, He's often shown himself to be decent, honourable, and considered in his views.

 

For the avoidance of any doubt, that makes Bob very, very different indeed to you.

 

Most people could learn a lot from him.

 

Except you.

 

You couldn't learn anything from Bob.

 

You couldn't learn anything from anyone or anything.