Entire high rise alight in London

[Mikey1874]

Criminal investigation launched by the police.

 

A horrible tragedy. The most important thing at the moment is to quickly understand what happened and identify if any other buildings are at risk. If there are, then clearly the issue needs to be removed,

 

Going forward, people need answers and ultimately those found to be negligent in any way will be dealt with.

 

This is far too tragic to be swept away as has been done in the past.

 

On a political note, this is the end of May. She'll

be gone in a matter of months.

 

You can fully understand and feel the anger, and you get a real sense of that by speaking to folks and social media etc

 

People have had enough

The Queen visiting and speaking to people albeit closely managed the day after May wouldn't talk to ordinary people/ victims is a telling sign.

 

Even DUP for example will be unhappy at that yesterday so she's very vulnerable.

 

This could have a big impact on Britain.

[Mikey1874]

I see the press today are going with "the residents didn't want a sprinkler system as it would have been more inconvenience for them". I wonder who pushed that information to the press? Let's blame the victims yet again.

It's shite

 

Even worse are the management company / contractors saying "we followed all the regulations"

 

When people still don't know what has happened to loved ones.

[Jeff]

It's shite

 

Even worse are the management company / contractors saying "we followed all the regulations"

 

When people still don't know what has happened to loved ones.

 

Had a guardian story buzz on my phone to say that the manufacturers take responsibility for a cheaper option being used for the cladding?

[Mikey1874]

That's a massive statement from a person in such a high position. Can he prove that this was put to a vote at a residents meeting? Or did they just force-feed the residents the view that it would be a massive disruption to them? The Council are panicking here.

It's not the residents role to decide the safety systems

 

It's the role of the experts and those in charge

[Салатные палочки]

It's not the residents role to decide the safety systems

 

It's the role of the experts and those in charge

So he's blaming the residents for something they never had any power over anyway?

 

Sent from my SM-A310F using Tapatalk

[Bindy Badgy]

Had a guardian story buzz on my phone to say that the manufacturers take responsibility for a cheaper option being used for the cladding?

 

Apparently, the difference in cost between the two types worked out at around 5k for the entire building. Lady on the BBC News (no idea who) didn't think cost would come into the decision as it was a fraction of the cost of the refurb and not worth getting into a cost/benefit analysis over.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

I'm at a loss how you could think the authorities and austerity is not to blame here. People in 2017 living stacked on top of each other in a ghetto just isn't needed in the worlds 5th richest country, shame on them.

 

Many if not most of the tower blocks up and down the UK have been there for the last 40 or 50 maybe even more years.

 

People have been living stacked on top of each other long before any austerity measures came about.

 

Knock them down and build more homes would be the answer, however it's not just as easy as that.

 

[Bindy Badgy]

Many if not most of the tower blocks up and down the UK have been there for the last 40 or 50 maybe even more years.

 

People have been living stacked on top of each other long before any austerity measures came about.

 

Knock them down and build more homes would be the answer, however it's not just as easy as that.

 

Aside from the cost there's also the issue of space. We're a relatively small island with a biggish population. There's only so many houses that can be built in one place, particularly when you take account of the fact that most people are clustered around a few cities.

[SwindonJambo]

2 things have totally screwed up the UK Property Market.

 

1. Maggie's 1979 Election Winning Bribe - Right to buy. Hundreds of thousands of Social Housing stock sold at a knockdown price, the new owners turn a quick profit and bugger off to live somewhere else. Many of these same properties are now owned by Buy to Let landlords.

 

2. John Major introduced Buy to Let Mortages in 1996, at a time when the property market was at rock bottom. Cue an explosion in the Private Rental Market, with many tenants claiming housing benefits to pay their rent, paying the Landlord's mortgage in turn and so these landlords make a fat profit at the taxpayer's expense, as well as owning the properties outright once the mortgage is paid.

 

So several million people, previously living in Local Authority owned Social Housing are now in private rented homes, at a massive additional cost to the taxpayer.

 

Meanwhile, the property market has spiralled far out of control as Mortgage Lenders are happier to lend to Buy-To-Let Landlords than Owner Residents - they charge them more interest and a default is not a risk as the tenant can claim housing benefit should they fall on hard times.

 

Many of these tenants might have been able to afford to buy had the property market not gotten out of control and out of their reach andso they cannot accumulate assets over their working lives the way their peers from 20 years ago could. Buy renting only, all they are doing is making the already wealthy even wealthier so feeding their greed.

 

Refurbishment and maintenance is an expense to landlords and eat into profits. Some are rather a lot less consciensious than others so tragedies like this are increasingly likely.

 

I would:

 

1. Stop any further sales of Social Housing by Local Authorities. Edit : Jambo-Jimbo has pointed out ot me that Scotland has led the way on this. Time for rUK to follow suit.

 

and

 

2. Ban Buy-to-Let Mortgages immediately. Wht the hell should anyone get a mortgage for a property other than the one they live in!?

 

3. We need to resume building Social Housing and on a large scale.

 

4. Stating the obvious but tighten up safety standards and make sure they are policed.

Edited June 16, 2017 by SwindonJambo

[Jambo-Jimbo]

Aside from the cost there's also the issue of space. We're a relatively small island with a biggish population. There's only so many houses that can be built in one place, particularly when you take account of the fact that most people are clustered around a few cities.

 

Totally agree, space is at a premium and that is why the tower blocks are still there.

 

120 flats were in that block, that would mean a maximum of 120 1,2 or 3 bedroom houses needing built somewhere, not in Kensington or many other area's of London, there just isn't the space, so the people would have to move, would they be willing to move miles away out of the area, 120 houses for about 600 people, that's the size of a village, indeed many villages don't have about 600 residents in them.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

2 things have totally screwed up the UK Property Market.

 

1. Maggie's 1979 Election Winning Bribe - Right to buy. Hundreds of thousands of Social Housing stock sold at a knockdown price, the new owners turn a quick profit and bugger off to live somewhere else. Many of these same properties are now owned by Buy to Let landlords.

 

2. John Major introduced Buy to Let Mortages in 1996, at a time when the property market was at rock bottom. Cue an explosion in the Private Rental Market, with many tenants claiming housing benefits to pay their rent, paying the Landlord's mortgage in turn and so these landlords make a fat profit at the taxpayer's expense, as well as owning the properties outright once the mortgage is paid.

 

So several million people, previously living in Local Authority owned Social Hosing are now in private rented homes, at a massive additional cost to the taxpayer.

 

Meanwhile, the property market has spiralled far out of control as Mortgage Lenders are happier to lend to Buy-To-Let Landlords than Owner Residents - they charge them more interest and a default is not a risk as the tenant can claim housing benefit should they fall on hard times.

 

Many of these tenants might have been able to afford to buy had the property market not gotten out of control and out of their reach andso they cannot accumulate assets over their working lives the way their peers from 20 years ago could. Buy renting only, all they are doing is making the already wealthy even wealthier so feeding their greed.

 

Refurbishment and maintenance is an expense to landlords and eat into profits. Some are rather a lot less consciensious than others so tragedies like this are increasingly likely.

 

I would:

 

1. Stop any further sales of Social Housing by Local Authorities.

 

and

 

2. Ban Buy-to-Let Mortgages immediately. Wht the hell should anyone get a mortgage for a property other than the one they live in.

 

3. We need to resume building Social Housing and on a large scale.

 

4. Stating the obvious but tighten up safety standards and make sure they are policed.

 

There is now no social house sales in Scotland, the SNP ended the 'right to buy' at the end of July last year.

[fabienleclerq]

Many if not most of the tower blocks up and down the UK have been there for the last 40 or 50 maybe even more years.

 

People have been living stacked on top of each other long before any austerity measures came about.

 

Knock them down and build more homes would be the answer, however it's not just as easy as that.

 

I'm not sure your point here. I'm saying that in 2017 we shouldn't be stacking people up in ghetto tower blocks the last 40/50 years are irrelevant and austerity has cut budgets all over the place inc housing. Councils are feeling the strain and it appears major corners have been cut, I think austerity can shoulder some of the blame.

[Boab]

Many if not most of the tower blocks up and down the UK have been there for the last 40 or 50 maybe even more years.

 

People have been living stacked on top of each other long before any austerity measures came about.

 

Knock them down and build more homes would be the answer, however it's not just as easy as that.

 

 

Sorry, mate, but i'm with Stokesy here. Many high rise blocks are decent and well maintained. I've been in a couple after they were gutted by fire and while the individual flat was destroyed, the only way you knew there was a fire, getting out the lift, was the smell.

 

Something has gone badly wrong here with design and materials and probably maintenance. All points to the cladding of course.

 

the repercussions will rumble on for years.

[SwindonJambo]

There is now no social house sales in Scotland, the SNP ended the 'right to buy' at the end of July last year.

I knew there were plans to do so and good on them for doing so. Still happening elsewhere though. Here in Swindon there were 17,000 Council Houses in 1981 and we're now down to 10,000. Town has grown about 40-50% in that time too.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

Sorry, mate, but i'm with Stokesy here. Many high rise blocks are decent and well maintained. I've been in a couple after they were gutted by fire and while the individual flat was destroyed, the only way you knew there was a fire, getting out the lift, was the smell.

 

Something has gone badly wrong here with design and materials and probably maintenance. All points to the cladding of course.

 

the repercussions will rumble on for years.

 

Whoa there mate, I'm not criticising tower blocks, I was answering a poster who was saying that in 2017 people shouldn't be living stacked up on each other.

 

If I've not made that clear in my post then I'm setting the record straight here and now.

[Governor Tarkin]

 

2. Ban Buy-to-Let Mortgages immediately. Wht the hell should anyone get a mortgage for a property other than the one they live in!?

 

 

So hard working folk can invest their savings whilst furnishing themselves with a bit of extra income and provide for their own future instead of relying on the state.

 

Aye, folk should be banned from doing that.

[Cade]

Empress May being heckled by survivors as she slinks in and out of the area, surrounded by security guards, media and advisors.

 

Protestors invading the council offices and being fobbed off with a pre-written statement read out by some poor wee intern.

 

This is going to run and run.

[Governor Tarkin]

Sorry, mate, but i'm with Stokesy here. Many high rise blocks are decent and well maintained. I've been in a couple after they were gutted by fire and while the individual flat was destroyed, the only way you knew there was a fire, getting out the lift, was the smell.

 

Something has gone badly wrong here with design and materials and probably maintenance. All points to the cladding of course.

 

the repercussions will rumble on for years.

Aye, when I lived in the Oxgangs high rises there were regularly fires which gutted the flat they were in and smoked out a few above. Can't remember ever being evacuated.

 

I guess we'll find out in due course what went wrong in this instance but the initial finger pointing seems to be aimed at the external cladding.

[Mikey1874]

Re above (good analysis) by Swindon it's other things.

 

1. Supply. Big lack. While I accept there are arguments about vacant housing we just don't build enough. So (supply and demand) prices go up. Bear in mind also demographics and social change. Many many more single person households.

 

2. Investment opportunities. The economy is shackled by a lack of skills and productivity (lack of investment in skills especially poorer people), lack of investment and government austerity. Money is pouring into property, the safe option. And you have money laundering eg from Russia due to lack of effective regulation. So you get all these expensive city properties many of which are empty. Recently a 500 flat development in Manchester gained only 2 (TWO) owner occupiers. The rest were investors mostly in all likelihood keeping the flats empty, not even renting them out. In Edinburgh the development near the Scottish Parliament has a third owner occupiers, a third are holiday lets and a third absent owners for investment. Roughly half occupied at any given time.

 

Meanwhile tens of thousands on council waiting lists. Many stuck in expensive private rented.

Edited June 16, 2017 by Mikey1874

[Governor Tarkin]

Empress May being heckled by survivors as she slinks in and out of the area, surrounded by security guards, media and advisors.

 

Protestors invading the council offices and being fobbed off with a pre-written statement read out by some poor wee intern.

 

This is going to run and run.

People are angry.

 

It's a catalyst for common folk with a raft of diverse grievances to mobilise.

 

If not handled well it could kick off.

[Boab]

Whoa there mate, I'm not criticising tower blocks, I was answering a poster who was saying that in 2017 people shouldn't be living stacked up on each other.

 

If I've not made that clear in my post then I'm setting the record straight here and now.

 

Just read the post you were replying to.

 

Apologies, I can see your post in context now.

[CJGJ]

People are angry.

 

It's a catalyst for common folk with a raft of diverse grievances to mobilise.

 

If not handled well it could kick off.

Agreed and what's worse encouraged by groups who frankly did not care one jot about those people before the tragedy.

 

It has the possibility of good people who have reason to be annoyed and upset being led by people who are stirring matters up for their own reasons

[The Mighty Thor]

People are angry.

 

It's a catalyst for common folk with a raft of diverse grievances to mobilise.

 

If not handled well it could kick off.

People are very angry and rightly so.

 

If the numbers of those missing bear any relation to an eventual casualty count then there's not a carpet big enough for this to be swept under.

 

I have a feeling this may be the straw that breaks this current governments back as they are being shown to be inept and uncaring on equal measure.

 

I genuinely think that May is hoping the promise of an inquiry, which will not report back for years, will be enough to assuage the anger and allow the news cycle to move on.

 

I think she's miscalculated this one and it'll drag her and her chums out of office.

 

 

Sent from my SM-G800F using Tapatalk

[Boab]

People are very angry and rightly so.

 

If the numbers of those missing bear any relation to an eventual casualty count then there's not a carpet big enough for this to be swept under.

 

I have a feeling this may be the straw that breaks this current governments back as they are being shown to be inept and uncaring on equal measure.

 

I genuinely think that May is hoping the promise of an inquiry, which will not report back for years, will be enough to assuage the anger and allow the news cycle to move on.

 

I think she's miscalculated this one and it'll drag her and her chums out of office.

 

 

Sent from my SM-G800F using Tapatalk

 

 

Any inquiry will be dictated by her and her cronies.....i.e. a whitewash.

 

Don't wait any longer, May, just GTF now.

[SwindonJambo]

Re above (good analysis) by Swindon it's other things.

 

1. Supply. Big lack. While I accept there are arguments about vacant housing we just don't build enough. So (supply and demand) prices go up. Bear in mind also demographics and social change. Many many more single person households.

 

2. Investment opportunities. The economy is shackled by a lack of skills and productivity (lack of investment in skills especially poorer people), lack of investment and government austerity. Money is pouring into property, the safe option. And you have money laundering eg from Russia due to lack of effective regulation. So you get all these expensive city properties many of which are empty. Recently a 500 flat development in Manchester gained only 2 (TWO) owner occupiers. The rest were investors mostly in all likelihood keeping the flats empty, not even renting them out. In Edinburgh the development near the Scottish Parliament has a third owner occupiers, a third are holiday lets and a third absent owners for investment. Roughly half occupied at any given time.

 

Meanwhile tens of thousands on council waiting lists. Many stuck in expensive private rented.

Good post.

 

Point 1 is a huge issue in the South of England where pressure on land is huge. A massive house building programme is needed - both privately sold and social housing. Most Councils down here have sold off their Social Housing Stock to Housing Associations. Swindon Council Tenants voted against it, despite a marketing blitzkrieg by the Council to become a Housing Association.

 

Point 2 has long been a big issue in London and it sounds like it's spread to other cities too. Most of the money comes in from Russia and China and is a form of land Banking. Perhaps a change in the Law could address this - such as charging extra Council Tax for non occupancy - especially in big cities with a housing shortage.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

I'm not sure your point here. I'm saying that in 2017 we shouldn't be stacking people up in ghetto tower blocks the last 40/50 years are irrelevant and austerity has cut budgets all over the place inc housing. Councils are feeling the strain and it appears major corners have been cut, I think austerity can shoulder some of the blame.

 

My point is, the tower blocks were there long before any austerity measures came around.

 

Now it is clear that something has very badly went wrong here, and budget cuts and austerity may well have had a large part to play, there may even be criminal charges which follow, however lets wait until the full investigation determines what actually happened and if anyone is to blame and if there is, I hope they face the full weight of the law.

 

However that doesn't address the problem of in 2017 people living stacked up on top of each other in Ghetto Tower Blocks as you claim.

As has been pointed out, where is the space to house 600+ people from just one tower block, especially in places like London, Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds, Edinburgh, Glasgow etc.

And as I've said, one tower block such as the size of Grenfell is equivalent to a village, the UK just doesn't have the room to build hundreds of new villages, notwithstanding would the residents want to be moved miles away out of the area, as we have seen the residents of Grenfell are demanding to be re-housed within the same borough, they don't want to move.

 

Many tower blocks are quite nice inside, I remember visiting the wife's grandparents who lived at High Coats in Coatbridge, the flats themselves were very nice and quite spacious, now I don't know what the insides of the Grenfell block were like, maybe they were like a ghetto as you've cliamed, but without seeing them myself I can't comment.

[SwindonJambo]

Any inquiry will be dictated by her and her cronies.....i.e. a whitewash.

 

Don't wait any longer, May, just GTF now.

She'll be gone soon enough. Her reluctance to take part in debates or appear in front of anything other than a hand-picked invited audience cannot be going unnoticed by anyone now.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

Just read the post you were replying to.

 

Apologies, I can see your post in context now.

 

No worries

[Jambo-Jimbo]

Any inquiry will be dictated by her and her cronies.....i.e. a whitewash.

 

Don't wait any longer, May, just GTF now.

 

I just can't see them getting away with a whitewash on this one, there is just too many people who have died and too many families involved for them to get away with it.

[Cade]

Only 2% of the land mass of the UK is developed.

 

The "no space" excuse is nothing but a myth.

 

They just don't want to spend the money on new housing schemes. 

[Boab]

I just can't see them getting away with a whitewash on this one, there is just too many people who have died and too many families involved for them to get away with it.

 

As Thor said though, mate, they'll drag this on for a long time....long after the anger that is present, has subsided a bit.

 

Hopefully May doesn't last even this month.

[maroonlegions]

Some of them will likely have been sold through right to buy and might now be in the hands of private landlords.

 

[Cade]

500-odd folk marching from Kensington to Downing Street.

They say that if Theresa May can't be arsed to come down to their manor to see them, they'll go see her instead.

Edited June 16, 2017 by Cade

[fabienleclerq]

My point is, the tower blocks were there long before any austerity measures came around.

 

Now it is clear that something has very badly went wrong here, and budget cuts and austerity may well have had a large part to play, there may even be criminal charges which follow, however lets wait until the full investigation determines what actually happened and if anyone is to blame and if there is, I hope they face the full weight of the law.

 

However that doesn't address the problem of in 2017 people living stacked up on top of each other in Ghetto Tower Blocks as you claim.

As has been pointed out, where is the space to house 600+ people from just one tower block, especially in places like London, Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds, Edinburgh, Glasgow etc.

And as I've said, one tower block such as the size of Grenfell is equivalent to a village, the UK just doesn't have the room to build hundreds of new villages, notwithstanding would the residents want to be moved miles away out of the area, as we have seen the residents of Grenfell are demanding to be re-housed within the same borough, they don't want to move.

 

Many tower blocks are quite nice inside, I remember visiting the wife's grandparents who lived at High Coats in Coatbridge, the flats themselves were very nice and quite spacious, now I don't know what the insides of the Grenfell block were like, maybe they were like a ghetto as you've cliamed, but without seeing them myself I can't comment.

 

 

There's plenty space to build houses, they don't want to build them as it will mean lower house prices and rents. I just don't think living stacked up like that is required.

[maroonlegions]

Some of them will likely have been sold through right to buy and might now be in the hands of private landlords.

 This is looking like a profit before people tragedy in regards to the less expensive cladding that was used.

 

Whoever used or authorised the use of this cladding knew very well the fire risk of this material and that fact is slowly dawning on a lot of people.

 

A public investigation will give May the time frame to divert any real blame and protect her wealthy property mates.

 

There was a reason why there was a high % of Tory MPs who voted against a new "fit for human habitation" legislation , most were all landlords or had investments in property.

 

Follow the money trail.

Edited June 16, 2017 by maroonlegions

[elvoys]

Linked point - too many people in London and too much UK immigration goes there. the only long term solution is not to keep expanding city but to think seriously about population control. Simon Jenkins was on 5 live talking about terraced houses are much better but that was fine in post war period of a million people. Land now is too expensive and limited green space should stay that.

[Bindy Badgy]

Only 2% of the land mass of the UK is developed.

 

The "no space" excuse is nothing but a myth.

 

They just don't want to spend the money on new housing schemes. 

 

Define developed. This BBC article gives the 2% figure but it also claims that 6.8% of the land urban. You could put more houses in that space but it would mean giving up parks and so on, which is going to further degrade the standard of living. Additionally, a lot of the undeveloped land outside of the cities is farmland and so on. We have a pitifully small amount of land that isn't heavily exploited in one way or another. I don't think that putting more concrete over the little land that has been set aside is the answer. That said, I don't really think there is a good answer besides reducing the population which isn't going to happen.

[maroonlegions]

500-odd folk marching from Kensington to Downing Street.

They say that if Theresa May can't be arsed to come down to their manor to see them, they'll go see her instead.

 

 

 

 

Wonder if her  husband ,who is a  CEO  of a company that helps companies avoiding  paying tax , will back her up.. or is too busy working out his share of the tax related profit  amount of the next property company to build on that land. 

 

 

Edited June 16, 2017 by maroonlegions

[Cade]

Define developed. This BBC article gives the 2% figure but it also claims that 6.8% of the land urban. You could put more houses in that space but it would mean giving up parks and so on, which is going to further degrade the standard of living. Additionally, a lot of the undeveloped land outside of the cities is farmland and so on. We have a pitifully small amount of land that isn't heavily exploited in one way or another. I don't think that putting more concrete over the little land that has been set aside is the answer. That said, I don't really think there is a good answer besides reducing the population which isn't going to happen.

It's been estimated that there are up to 1 million empty homes up and down the UK, being used as "land banks".

 

That's a national disgrace.

[Bindy Badgy]

It's been estimated that there are up to 1 million empty homes up and down the UK, being used as "land banks".

 

That's a national disgrace.

 

Completely agree on that point. Not sure if I misinterpreted your previous post?

[Mikey1874]

People are very angry and rightly so.

 

If the numbers of those missing bear any relation to an eventual casualty count then there's not a carpet big enough for this to be swept under.

 

I have a feeling this may be the straw that breaks this current governments back as they are being shown to be inept and uncaring on equal measure.

 

I genuinely think that May is hoping the promise of an inquiry, which will not report back for years, will be enough to assuage the anger and allow the news cycle to move on.

 

I think she's miscalculated this one and it'll drag her and her chums out of office.

 

 

Sent from my SM-G800F using Tapatalk

I do think it is more likely local council etc may take the hit

[Tars]

Interesting to see that most of these 'protesters' can't even answer basic questions, like why they are protesting. Instead they just abuse the reporter.

 

"We want answers!". Well, that's what the public enquiry is intending to do. Storming town halls won't help one bit. One guy spoke well (the leader I think), but it's clear that many have no clue what they are doing or what they're trying to achive.

 

At the end of the day, the government has announced that a full public enquiry will take place to determine the root cause. Until it is resolved then no one really knows why all this happened and who was actually responsible. That doesn't stop the usual suspects and conspiracy theorists on here immediately bringing their political agendas into the frame, without knowing facts. How about you just wait and see who is responsible once a full investigation has taken place, instead of automatically blaming the government for everything?

 

In the meantime though, the government have created a ?5 million fund and the council have said they will rehouse residents within three weeks as local as possible, pay for temporary accommodation in the meantime and provide financial assistance.

[Mikey1874]

Interesting to see that most of these 'protesters' can't even answer basic questions, like why they are protesting. Instead they just abuse the reporter.

 

"We want answers!". Well, that's what the public enquiry is intending to do. Storming town halls won't help one bit. One guy spoke well (the leader I think), but it's clear that many have no clue what they are doing or what they're trying to achive.

 

At the end of the day, the government has announced that a full public enquiry will take place to determine the root cause. Until it is resolved then no one really knows why all this happened and who was actually responsible. That doesn't stop the usual suspects and conspiracy theorists on here immediately bringing their political agendas into the frame, without knowing facts. How about you just wait and see who is responsible once a full investigation has taken place, instead of automatically blaming the government for everything?

 

In the meantime though, the government have created a ?5 million fund and the council have said they will rehouse residents within three weeks as local as possible, pay for temporary accommodation in the meantime and provide financial assistance.

That's okay for a 'normal' tragedy

 

This is extremely unprecedented

 

A small fire in a kitchen in a flat that all the experts say should be contained in that flat spread to the whole building and may have killed 000s of people

 

All fine and reasonable but anger is the correct response

 

Many of these people have family, friends, neighbours burnt to death as if in the worst possible horror film

[i8hibsh]

Only 2% of the land mass of the UK is developed.

 

The "no space" excuse is nothing but a myth.

 

They just don't want to spend the money on new housing schemes.

They? It is very much 'us' who will fund it.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

There's plenty space to build houses, they don't want to build them as it will mean lower house prices and rents. I just don't think living stacked up like that is required.

 

Oh there's plenty of space, plenty of land, but not all of it is suitable to build houses on.

 

Around about 70% of the UK's land is used for Agriculture, food production and we all have to eat, then there are large area's of land on flood plains and we all know the problems that building houses on flood plains cause, then there is vast area's in Wales, central England and the Lowlands and Highlands of Scotland which you struggle to build a sheep pen on never mind houses, then there are the forests, do we cut down all the trees to make way for houses.

 

I know what your saying, and it might look like there is plenty of land and to a degree there is, but huge area's are not suitable for house use.

 

Now making better use of the derelict buildings which are eyesores in every town and city in the country would make a small difference and would be better than nothing.

There is also lots of brown field sites which could be used for houses, but as always money is a factor, there are many unfinished housing schemes dotted about which had to be stopped, because the builders ran out of money to finish them off.

 

[Cade]

Protest march swollen to 1,000 people.

[felix]

Linked point - too many people in London and too much UK immigration goes there. the only long term solution is not to keep expanding city but to think seriously about population control. Simon Jenkins was on 5 live talking about terraced houses are much better but that was fine in post war period of a million people. Land now is too expensive and limited green space should stay that.

 

The cause of this tragedy isn't immigration.

It's victims may be immigrants....or old people...or people on benefits.......

The solution to the problem (fire safety in design & construction) isn't population control.

The solution to much of the worlds problems IS population control, but not here. 

 

At least you didn't focus on Islamic immigration

[Tars]

Disappointing (yet unsurprising) to see the leftists using this tragedy to stage a political protest.

 

Nothing to do with justice. All about the hatred of the Conservatives.

 

Very disrespectful to the grieving families.

[Eldar Hadzimehmedovic]

Oh just **** off. Bodies are still smoldering FFS.

[SectionDJambo]

Much as though it can be understandable, this kind of tragedy brings out the worst in people. Proper concerns and genuine attempts to bring relief to the survivors, will be hijacked by people, who are only there to agitate.

It also brings out the best in people, as can be seen by people of many walks of life, and religion, working together to help those poor people. It is a glowing example of the goodness of humanity. Officialdom has to match this now.

Like her or not, depending on your political point of view, what sort of help to the situation would May going into a lions den of people, who hated her before this tragedy, have provided? Reports suggest the Queen was heckled when she went to see the people today. It's like some people wanted May to go in there to see her get assaulted or kick off a riot. Corbyn was on a completely no lose situation, as he knew no blame could be attached to him. The London Mayor almost got himself into a bad situation, even though he's a Labour man.

Complaints about officials trying to deflect blame, when they should keep their mouths shut, but other complaints when officials give no comment responses to 24 hour news, looking to fill their extensive air time.

To me, the 24 hours news people have been shown up for the vultures they are, over the recent mass murders and this tragedy. Stirring up peoples emotions to then capture more reaction.

Hard though it is, the investigation should be allowed to take place, as quickly as possible, without the pressure to lay blame without due diligence. In the meantime, authorities of every political colour need to, urgently, review and check current living accommodation they provide.

Edited June 16, 2017 by SectionDJambo