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Entire high rise alight in London


Col1874

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In what way were those people responsible for their homes in the context of fire safety? Install their own sprinkler systems?

 

I meant more as starting it.  Seemingly it was a faulty fridge.  To all we know it could have been someone falling asleep with a fag in their hand.  Would that be the government's fault?  I would take a guess and it is just a guess that most fires are caused by people being idiots.  We live in a society where people need their arses wiped Victorian and yes we have to take responsibility for ensuring safe guards around our homes.

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I meant more as starting it. Seemingly it was a faulty fridge. To all we know it could have been someone falling asleep with a fag in their hand. Would that be the government's fault? I would take a guess and it is just a guess that most fires are caused by people being idiots. We live in a society where people need their arses wiped Victorian and yes we have to take responsibility for ensuring safe guards around our homes.

A fag started this fire.
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Knowledge based,   industry and regulatory led,   expert judgement always and always has to take precedence over the unskilled,   lay-person beliefs of residents.      Residents not coming to a so-called collective agreement over sprinklers would not and should never inform any decision over whether or not they should be installed.      To suggest otherwise is madness.

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I meant more as starting it. Seemingly it was a faulty fridge. To all we know it could have been someone falling asleep with a fag in their hand. Would that be the government's fault? I would take a guess and it is just a guess that most fires are caused by people being idiots. We live in a society where people need their arses wiped Victorian and yes we have to take responsibility for ensuring safe guards around our homes.

And if that tenant was a council tenant the fridge and other white goods could likely have been provided and fitted by the council.

 

The fact is the councillor should not be blaming the tenants as the facts are, as yet, unknown.

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It is innapropriate

 

but it could be correct.

It is inappropriate, why he's being criticised.

 

'Could be' - so no one knows even to defend nevermind attack.

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Bindy Badgy

Councillor Judith Blakeman was on BBC News just now saying that she was at all bar one of the consultations around the refurbishments and that sprinkler systems were not discussed at any of the meetings she was at. Comments were made at around 11:10 if anyone wants to see the interview on Iplayer.

Edited by Stokesy
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Clearly Theresa May's fag.

Jesus wept, how old are you? IMO.. Tories are Arseholes.

 

Your input on this thread seems to back that up anyway.

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Jesus wept, how old are you? IMO.. Tories are Arseholes.

 

Your input on this thread seems to back that up anyway.

 

 

Am I allowed to disagree that Tories are not arseholes or do you speak for everyone?

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Am I allowed to disagree that Tories are not arseholes or do you speak for everyone?

That point is already clear. And I'm not seething or fizzing here so your flogging a dead horse and can put the tissues away.

 

Do I speak for all? Go and look up the meaning of IMO as you Cleary don't understand it :lol:

Edited by EreWeG0..
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maroonlegions

Tell the relatives that at their wakes. They'll appreciate your candor, in that their family who's died, own negligence and apathy towards fire safety, supposedly helped them to suffer in their final moments.

 

Crumbs of comfort, I'm sure.

 

Tell your own relatives that, if something tragic happens to a loved one of yours in their own home next time.

 

Sure you will.

 

 

:spoton:

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It is not only not the responsibilty of tenants in rented accommodation, they are basically unable to out in the fire safety measures required. It was somewhere in the region of ?200,000.00 to install a sprinkler system, how could a tenant do that?

 

How can a tenant have control over the building materials used being safe in the event of a fire? That is governments responsibilty to enforce.

 

 

I am pretty sure it is enforced.  The laws are there so it would be the landlords, no?  

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That point is already clear. And I'm not seething or fizzing here so your flogging a dead horse and can put the tissues away.

 

Do I speak for all? Go and look up the meaning of IMO as you Cleary don't understand it :lol:

 

 

I never saw the "IMO"

 

:facepalm:

 

Apologies

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The Internet

Sorry i8, it's finally ignore time, you're just not worth the warning points

It makes no difference. Everyone ends up quoting him.

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I never saw the "IMO"

 

:facepalm:

 

Apologies

Accepted. No one's blaming the Tories for the actual incident, just his comments are as you said 'inappropriate'

 

Anyway...we have an unknown Polish defender just signed that needs your attention in The Terrace. :lol:

Edited by EreWeG0..
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Accepted. No one's blaming the Tories for the actual incident, just his comments are as you said 'distasteful'

 

Anyway...we have an unknown Polish defender just signed that needs your attention in The Terrace. :lol:

 

Lol, I am purposely avoiding that one as I can't bring anything positive to the thread.I live in hope however.

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Escobar PHM

Why would he need to shift the blame?  You would have to be an idiot to blame the government for this.  I guess it is also the Tories fault that the flats were dangerously overcrowded too right?

Welcome to the thread I8. I knew as soon as you discovered many of the dead were Muslims you'd be along here with your tuppence worth. Dead Muslims = Dead jihadis = World a safer Place yeh ?. Especially the first named guy. Syrian refugee. Was probably going to blow himself up anyway right ?

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What seems to typify the rich v poor angle is that the cladding was installed so the building looked less ugly to neighbouring houses..

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maroonlegions

Was watching SKY news this morning, and there was Teresa Mays new  chief of staff , he was  getting chased down the road by reporters , they were shouting questions at him about his time as former Housing Minister, and what he knew about any safety concerns about Grenfell Tower block.

 

He looked very nervous and kept his mouth shut the whole time until he snaked  his way into a building via an intercom system.. 

 

 

 

"Gavin Barwell failed to give the review the green light during his tenure as housing minister, despite it already having waited for years".

 

"The fire expert behind a report calling for the desperately needed safety appraisal, said he had spoken to Mr Barwell earlier this year and the then-minister told him no decision on the review had been taken".

 

http://www.independe...k-a7790501.html

 

Now we have that Tory rag spreading the story of blame on the residents, total fecking w*******.

 

Said it in a previous post that i would not be surprised if those possibly responsible for  endorsing  health and safety in private and council rented properties,  (and even pressured through funding budgets through cuts), try and snake out of any blame and accountability. 

 

Gavin Barwell needs to answer some very serious questions when he was housing minster.  

 

One is  why he, as form Housing Minster, failed to give the green light for a safety appraisal for Grenfell Tower block,, and why even this year,  before this tragedy, why there was still  no decision made on that desperately needed  safety appraisal. This is despite a fire safety expert calling  for one, a call that was  made directly to Gavin Barwell when he was Housing Minister. 

 

Blame a Tory, fecking right i am.

 

What is  even more worrying to is that Teresa May made him one of her cabinet, is that why she has point blank refused to meet or talk too any of these poor residents,  she cant look them in the fecking eye i feel.  

Edited by maroonlegions
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Welcome to the thread I8. I knew as soon as you discovered many of the dead were Muslims you'd be along here with your tuppence worth. Dead Muslims = Dead jihadis = World a safer Place yeh ?. Especially the first named guy. Syrian refugee. Was probably going to blow himself up anyway right ?

:wow:

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maroonlegions

He was essentially blaming the residents. Did you even read the article?

 

Here is a quote for you

 

"but many residents felt that we needed to get on with the installation of new hot water systems, new boilers and that trying to retrofit more would delay the building and that sprinklers aren't the answer.",

 

He is a snakey arsehole in the way he worded it as well.

 

I8, Tory or not how the feck can you even begin to defend individuals like this.

 

I am going to have to put you on ignore for a while again. You truly are the lowest of the low.

 Overcrowding can be seen as a failure of government not providing enough  affordable social housing  and a result of greedy private landlords exploiting  very vulnerable poor people .

 

These private landlords must be making a fortune from excessive rents through housing benefits, no austerity for  corporate welfare  though. :thumbsdown:

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Blame a Tory, fecking right I am

:lol: I stand corrected. Can't really argue much with that ML :thumbsup:

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maroonlegions

What seems to typify the rich v poor angle is that the cladding was installed so the building looked less ugly to neighbouring houses..

 And  also cheap  so as not  to eat in to their profits.

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What seems to typify the rich v poor angle is that the cladding was installed so the building looked less ugly to neighbouring houses..

 Would it not also look better to the people who lived there? 

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Салатные палочки

Aamer Anwar is very scathing on the government's role in this.

 

 

Sent from my SM-A310F using Tapatalk

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Welcome to the thread I8. I knew as soon as you discovered many of the dead were Muslims you'd be along here with your tuppence worth. Dead Muslims = Dead jihadis = World a safer Place yeh ?. Especially the first named guy. Syrian refugee. Was probably going to blow himself up anyway right ?

 

 

In 12 years of this forum and over 24,000 posts that is by far and away the only one that has truly offended me.  Seriously dude that is totally uncalled for on absolutely every level.

 

And as an edit I do no 'report' posts as it is not my MO but I really hope this post is frowned upon by others as it is by me.

Edited by i8hibsh
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Welcome to the thread I8. I knew as soon as you discovered many of the dead were Muslims you'd be along here with your tuppence worth. Dead Muslims = Dead jihadis = World a safer Place yeh ?. Especially the first named guy. Syrian refugee. Was probably going to blow himself up anyway right ?

Words fail me.

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Салатные палочки

In 12 years of this forum and over 24,000 posts that is by far and away the only one that has truly offended me.  Seriously dude that is totally uncalled for on absolutely every level.

 

And as an edit I do no 'report' posts as it is not my MO but I really hope this post is frowned upon by others as it is by me.

 

Aye, pretty harsh man. 

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ToadKiller Dog

Getting away from I8 debates .the issue in the thread is a bit bigger than I8 often unusual look at the world and others over the top reactions to it.

 

A Sun reporter was caught pretending to be a victims family member at Kings college hospital so he could get an interview .

Nowt the snakes at that rag won't stoop to .

The hospital has made a complaint to the press authorities .

The sun denied the accusations

Edited by ToadKiller Dog
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John Findlay

From experience of things past. I will say that regardless of which party is in power at the time. They all refuse to take responsibility and try to shift blame to ever they believe they can get away with.

So the current government are behaving no differently to other governments who have gone before them.

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In 12 years of this forum and over 24,000 posts that is by far and away the only one that has truly offended me. Seriously dude that is totally uncalled for on absolutely every level.

 

And as an edit I do no 'report' posts as it is not my MO but I really hope this post is frowned upon by others as it is by me.

I have been rather peed off at your posting of late but I wouldnt go as far as saying you are happy with the dying of Muslims.

 

Best to ignore it.

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AlphonseCapone

Quite a few folk would be best to step away from this thread. Some pretty horrific posts.

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I P Knightley

Well, like absolutely EVERY poster on this thread, I know little facts with regards to causes etc so it would not be appropriate for me to say.  However, what I am sick of is the ?blame government? with absolutely every single thing that happens in life.  It is quite ridiculous.  The government is accosted every second of every day.  People are always looking to blame the authorities.  A poor girl gets crushed by a mini van in Edinburgh and **** me it is the council?s fault.  A housing block goes up in flames and **** me it is those nasty Tories. Here are some key points that would not have helped the situation with those tower blocks:

 

?         Up to 4 times as many people living there as legally approved

?         Landlords obviously cost cutting

 

Right - so until FACTS are known, we agree that it's inappropriate to second guess and apportion blame, yes?

 

Is "up to 4 times as many people" a fact? It most certainly is not. "The number of people in the block is undocumented" would be a fact. "Up to" 4 times as many could be 3 times as many, 2 times as many 1.1 times as many. At this point nobody knows so let's not build arguments around such a wishy-washy claim.

 

Landlords "obviously" cost cutting is not a FACT. Landlords (aren't they the Tory council, btw?) are commercial and in any commercial organisation, there's an expectation that costs will not be spent unnecessarily. So, whilst costs will have been monitored and unnecessary costs ought to have been avoided, there's no evidence pointing to a "fact" that cost management has been done with recklessness. 

 

Personally, I'm very uncomfortable that the conversation has turned so very quickly to 'blame' and 'retribution'. I get 'anger'; I get 'sadness' but I'd rather that people spent more time on (a) making sure that those directly affected are in the best place they can possibly be and (B) those who fear they are at risk of something similar are given reassurance. 

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Yes of course but when his  company is in real danger of facing blame for such a tragedy surely he would have had access to such information, i mean he was interviewed hours after the blaze and accusations about the material used was being questioned, even way back in 2013??

 

Due-diligence  and heath and safety reports ?? would he have not at some point signed them off?

 

Anyway most of his answers were along the lines "we met the standard specifications ", when he answered one question that was put to him in regards about the  material"s used??

 

Was he aware that those materials were banned in Dubai??  he might have to be sacking his head of engineers and structural personnel. 

 

There were  also other very awkward questions being posed to him, cant remember them all but the last one he failed to answer as his line suddenly went  dead.???

The Contractors do not pick the materials to be used. The council employ Architects to provide the specification, on materials and fixing methods. Contractors only carry out what the client wants. The client then inspects the work to ensure that specs have been met. All in my experience anyway. Looks like the council have to look long and hard at the way that they have been carrying out such works.

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This is unclear at the moment. Were the building regulations tough enough? It could be that the materials/methods used on the tower were complient but that the regulations were not fit for purpose.

 

It will all hopefully come out and the result will hopefully be that this is never able to happen again.

You're right.

The Regulations down south don't insist on inflammable materials in rainscreen high-rise. The Regulations in Scotland do.

This won't happen in future , because the Regulations in England will change.

Suspect there will be some workmanship and detailing issues being investigated over the next year - and it will become abundantly clear who (or what) was to blame .

And it wont  be the householder who's apt. the fire started in.

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Insulation behind the cladding was not fire retardant.

The fire resistant stuff was ?2 a square metre more expensive.

 

The Queen has been heckled by relatives after her visit to the scene.

 

Death toll risen to 30 and will probably more than double on top of that.

 

1,200 properties in the council area have been empty for more than 6 months due to being used as "land banks" (property bought but never occupied then sold on at a profit after a few years due to rising house prices)

 

No matter the circumstances of a fire in a tower block, the fire should be contained inside one flat for at least an hour and all other doors in the corridors be rated to last an hour also. Something was dreadfully wrong at Grenfell.

Edited by Cade
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zoltan socrates

Welcome to the thread I8. I knew as soon as you discovered many of the dead were Muslims you'd be along here with your tuppence worth. Dead Muslims = Dead jihadis = World a safer Place yeh ?. Especially the first named guy. Syrian refugee. Was probably going to blow himself up anyway right ?

You need to pick up your toys, your pram must be empty

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maroonlegions

The Contractors do not pick the materials to be used. The council employ Architects to provide the specification, on materials and fixing methods. Contractors only carry out what the client wants. The client then inspects the work to ensure that specs have been met. All in my experience anyway. Looks like the council have to look long and hard at the way that they have been carrying out such works.

 Regardless of who picks the materials both parties must surely check if such materials are fire safety.

 

It again begs the question that  because of cuts to funding in regards to social housing the cheapest material was used.

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maroonlegions

Insulation behind the cladding was not fire retardant.

The fire resistant stuff was ?2 a square metre more expensive.

 

The Queen has been heckled by relatives after her visit to the scene.

 

Death toll risen to 30 and will probably more than double on top of that.

 

1,200 properties in the council area have been empty for more than 6 months due to being used as "land banks" (property bought but never occupied then sold on at a profit after a few years due to rising house prices)

 

No matter the circumstances of a fire in a tower block, the fire should be contained inside one flat for at least an hour and all other doors in the corridors be rated to last an hour also. Something was dreadfully wrong at Grenfell.

 

 

Spot on and this is the crucial fact that i see here.  :2thumbsup:

 

If landlords are not ensuring that their buildings are fitted with the appropriately with safety measures,  like fire safety cladding or installations then they put  residents at risk.

 

If also landlords fail to contact councils about issues concerning their buildings then they are responsible also for failing in their duty to make safe any residents in their proprieties.

 

They and  those ex housing ministers  are guilty of "deception" by "omission" by failing to act on safety concerns raised to them by  the likes of fire experts.  

The council are are at fault too but it comes down to the financial interests of private landlords , they dont see peoples homes they see money .

 

The government subsides local councils and this funding has suffered major cuts  .

 

To me there is no excuse for voting down legislation that could saved lives or made buildings safer.

 

 Tories voted against an amendment that would have introduced legislation that landlords by law would have not make sure their proprieties were fit for human habitation. A majority of those Tories were landlords????

 
 
So the argument is that short term private landlords 'might' have been forced to provide barely humane conditions but that long term or Council provided wouldn't have been covered by that pitifully thin legislation? So are those living conditions for long term or Council tenants allowed/expected to be even worse than that under this Government!
 

 

 

Also worth noting is that the Tory run local council saved ?2.5m after ditching the "intended contractor" to carry out last year's major refurbish of Grenfell Tower, the scene of this week's major fire. Lowest bidder gets the contract.

 

 

     Tory minister warned against including sprinklers in fire safety rules as it could discourage house building :thumbsdown: 

If landlords are not ensuring their buildings are fitted appropriately with necessary safety measures, they put every resident at risk. If the landlords failed to contact the council about issues concerning the building then they are responsible, not only of failing their duty to residence and the local council, but they are also guilty of deception by omission. How much money was pumped into that refurbishment? And the residence still found issues -- note that they have a blog and claim to have made complaints. The council are also at fault for not doing their job but ultimately this comes down to the interests of private landlords, they don't see people's homes, they see money. The government subsidise local councils, and this funding has also suffered major cuts. There's no excuse for voting down legislation that could have saved lives. 

. If landlords are not ensuring their buildings are fitted appropriately with necessary safety measures, they put every resident at risk. If the landlords failed to contact the council about issues concerning the building then they are responsible, not only of failing their duty to residence and the local council, but they are also guilty of deception by omission. How much money was pumped into that refurbishment? And the residence still found issues -- note that they have a blog and claim to have made complaints. The council are also at fault for not doing their job but ultimately this comes down to the interests of private landlords, they don't see people's homes, they see money. The government subsidise local councils, and this funding has also suffered major cuts. There's no excuse for voting down legislation that could have saved lives. 

. If landlords are not ensuring their buildings are fitted appropriately with necessary safety measures, they put every resident at risk. If the landlords failed to contact the council about issues concerning the building then they are responsible, not only of failing their duty to residence and the local council, but they are also guilty of deception by omission. How much money was pumped into that refurbishment? And the residence still found issues -- note that they have a blog and claim to have made complaints. The council are also at fault for not doing their job but ultimately this comes down to the interests of private landlords, they don't see people's homes, they see money. The government subsidise local councils, and this funding has also suffered major cuts. There's no excuse for voting down legislation that could have saved lives. 

Edited by maroonlegions
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fabienleclerq

I'm at a loss how you could think the authorities and austerity is not to blame here. People in 2017 living stacked on top of each other in a ghetto just isn't needed in the worlds 5th richest country, shame on them.

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maroonlegions

Just correcting a part of my last post in which i stated the following..     "Tories voted against an amendment that would have introduced legislation that landlords by law would have *not* make sure their proprieties were fit for human habitation. A majority of those Tories were landlords????

 

It should have read  "Tories voted against an amendment that would have introduced legislation that landlords by law would *HAVE* to  make sure their proprieties were fit for human habitation.

 

My changes are as  marked with the following italics.. **

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maroonlegions

I'm at a loss how you could think the authorities and austerity is not to blame here. People in 2017 living stacked on top of each other in a ghetto just isn't needed in the worlds 5th richest country, shame on them.

 Bang on mate. :2thumbsup:

 

Those living stacked on top of each other are regarded as savings on  the money needed to build affordable social housing and are also profit margins for private  landlords who make a killing from housing benefits, its a form of "corporate welfare" for the private sector.

 

Money needs to come from somewhere that feeds tax breaks for the wealthy after all.

 

There is a cap on housing benefit but no caps  on what the private sector can charge in rents, that says it all.

 

No austerity for "corporate welfare". :toff:

Edited by maroonlegions
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fabienleclerq

Bang on mate. :2thumbsup:

 

Those living stacked on top of each other are regarded as savings on the money needed to build affordable social housing and are also profit margins for private landlords who make a killing from housing benefits, its a form of "corporate welfare" for the private sector.

 

Money needs to come from somewhere that feeds tax breaks for the wealthy after all.

 

There is a cap on housing benefit but no caps on what the private sector can charge in rents, that says it all.

 

No austerity for "corporate welfare". :toff:

Are they not owned by the council?

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Are they not owned by the council?

Some of them will likely have been sold through right to buy and might now be in the hands of private landlords.

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Rudolf's Mate

Some of them will likely have been sold through right to buy and might now be in the hands of private landlords.

It's owned by council but managed by a private firm. Council will effectively sign off on the works

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