Entire high rise alight in London

[Helzibob]

Do you know something?

Just on EEN that Naper uni halls of residence has the same cladding as Grenfell.

[Helzibob]

Here's the link. They do have sprinklers and other fire safety systems though.

 

http://bit.ly/2tRNw1v

[Victorian]

There is cladding in at least one local authority that has failed the fire safety testing but it passed when installed. It was certificated as class zero risk and is now said to be class 3. The local authority wants to know what the testing proceedure is and how such a marked difference in safety categorisation can occur. But they aren't being told.

 

Smelling a rat there likes.

[Sexton Hardcastle]

Do you know something?

If what I've told has substance then it will become pretty big news in the next day or so.

[Helzibob]

I just went past the Premier Inn at Edinburgh Park and they're in the process of ripping the cladding off today.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

Just to repeat - Building Regulations aren't UK based - they're devolved in Scotland .

 

The Scottish Government conduct regular reviews . The UK government for some reason,  put off reviewing the English Regs. Effectively this  means Scottish Regulations on Fire safety are more onerous (and better) than those down south.

 

The over-cladding on Grenfell Tower would not get through the Scottish system.

 

Well it did at Napier Uni Halls of Residence it would seem and I'll bet it isn't the only place in Scotland either.

[Cade]

Survivors are still having rent taken out of their bank accounts.

 

Obviously this means that the dead are also still being charged.

 

Absolute farce.

[lauriesrank]

Survivors are still having rent taken out of their bank accounts.

 

Obviously this means that the dead are also still being charged.

 

Absolute farce.

WTF???????????????????????????  I mean they will claim it's 'an oversight' but in reality they're utter scum.

[CJGJ]

WTF???????????????????????????  I mean they will claim it's 'an oversight' but in reality they're utter scum.

Whilst I understand this is another slap in the face for those involved people sometimes expect too much of other human beings and seem to think action or non action means they are acting out of malice.

This situation is unprecedented and no one will have thought of all the possible scenarios.

 

It is all too easy to be critical after the event but how many people actually thought of this until it happened and some of the flats were sub let as well so it would be difficult in some cases to ensure all the scenarios were covered.

Any monies deducted should of course be repaid asp.

[lauriesrank]

Whilst I understand this is another slap in the face for those involved people sometimes expect too much of other human beings and seem to think action or non action means they are acting out of malice.

This situation is unprecedented and no one will have thought of all the possible scenarios.

 

It is all too easy to be critical after the event but how many people actually thought of this until it happened and some of the flats were sub let as well so it would be difficult in some cases to ensure all the scenarios were covered.

Any monies deducted should of course be repaid asp.

It's more the fact that I called this last week, said 'they'll still be charged rent though I bet' So, if I was thinking it, then surely others must have been too.  Irrespective of that, all the council had to do was show a bit of sense.  I understand I have knee jerked because it still upsets me though.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

It's more the fact that I called this last week, said 'they'll still be charged rent though I bet' So, if I was thinking it, then surely others must have been too.  Irrespective of that, all the council had to do was show a bit of sense.  I understand I have knee jerked because it still upsets me though.

 

As has been shown quite clearly, this council doesn't think and common sense is also in very short supply with them as well.

 

The other day was a prime example, when they tried to hold their first council meeting since the disaster, behind closed doors, despite all the criticism that's been directed at the council leadership they still just didn't get the public anger, they are incompetent at best, fortunately the council leaders have resigned, but I can see the Government having to step in and run the borough in the short term as Kensington & Chelsea council are in total disarray, they have all lost the support & trust of the public.

 

[Cade]

As has been shown quite clearly, this council doesn't think and common sense is also in very short supply with them as well.

 

The other day was a prime example, when they tried to hold their first council meeting since the disaster, behind closed doors, despite all the criticism that's been directed at the council leadership they still just didn't get the public anger, they are incompetent at best, fortunately the council leaders have resigned, but I can see the Government having to step in and run the borough in the short term as Kensington & Chelsea council are in total disarray, they have all lost the support & trust of the public.

Aye they only let journos in after the fecking High Court said they had to (!)

[Victorian]

K&C council have been shown to be completely paralysed by the scale of the event. I doubt there's anyone at all there who can direct a plan to look after the survivors and other affected people. It should have been placed under emergency special measures from virtually day 1.

[felix]

Well it did at Napier Uni Halls of Residence it would seem and I'll bet it isn't the only place in Scotland either.

 

Cladding is more than the actual panels themselves.  If Napier & Grenfell have the same outside panels -   the insulation behind is different.

Because Napier's  sprinklered, and has non-combustible  insulation - it's compliant with the Scottish system.

Grenfell had combustible (and poisonous) insulation, which likely contributed to the fire and may have been the cause of the incident, since the fire was originally thought to be extinguished, but must have been smouldering somewhere (my guess is in the insulation),  Also, odours from the insulation are said to have directly led  to deaths.

 

You couldn't get the cladding system at Grenfell, through the Scottish system, unless it was tested to compliance, which it 99.9% wasn't.

Edited July 1, 2017 by felix

[Cade]

Cladding is more than the actual panels themselves.  If Napier & Grenfell have the same outside panels -   the insulation behind is different.

Because Napier's  sprinklered, and has non-combustible  insulation - it's compliant with the Scottish system.

Grenfell had combustible (and poisonous) insulation, which likely contributed to the fire and may have been the cause of the incident, since the fire was originally thought to be extinguished, but must have been smouldering somewhere (my guess is in the insulation),  Also, odours from the insulation are said to have directly led  to deaths.

 

You couldn't get the cladding system at Grenfell, through the Scottish system, unless it was tested to compliance, which it 99.9% wasn't.

Grenfell also had uncovered gas pipes, which is why the fire kept re-igniting over three or fours days.

 

A litany of errors, individually dangerous, deadly in combination.

[Mac_fae_Gillie]

OK Council made errors and reacted poorly

But dozens of councils have same cladding types so should al the leaders at those resign??

the event was huge, government should have been in there faster as a national disaster.

council did have people on the ground doing their jobs trouble is they were not visible enough..

council failed to rehouse, well yep like they got 120 free houses ready to roll, the people refused to be rehoused outside of KnC so if properties don't exist to rehouse there is not much council could do.

 

 This whole event went way beyond council abilities yet they got to made scape goats, terrible thing that occurred but when shit hits fan it gets shitty. Way too much time looking to attack public services rather than just letting things get sorted

there is/was no easy fix except these people been shifted out of area to other council houses which they mostly refused(understandable if work or schools nearby) .

 

[Unknown user]

OK Council made errors and reacted poorly

But dozens of councils have same cladding types so should al the leaders at those resign??

the event was huge, government should have been in there faster as a national disaster.

council did have people on the ground doing their jobs trouble is they were not visible enough..

council failed to rehouse, well yep like they got 120 free houses ready to roll, the people refused to be rehoused outside of KnC so if properties don't exist to rehouse there is not much council could do.

 

This whole event went way beyond council abilities yet they got to made scape goats, terrible thing that occurred but when shit hits fan it gets shitty. Way too much time looking to attack public services rather than just letting things get sorted

there is/was no easy fix except these people been shifted out of area to other council houses which they mostly refused(understandable if work or schools nearby) .

That's an excellent point. I met an ex councillor once, a lovely older lady. All she wanted to do was help, and in her younger days that's how she'd done it. She wasn't very bright, wasn't up to date with technology and thinking, but her heart was in the right place, she worked hard and people voted for her.

But people like her shouldn't have to make or approve decisions about cladding and insulation types. We need building regulations that are clear, concise and offer as much safety as possible - the experts should draw up the rules.

If the right rules were in place and responsibility clearly defined none of this would have happened and it's important that this is changed as a result

[Cade]

OK Council made errors and reacted poorly

But dozens of councils have same cladding types so should al the leaders at those resign??

the event was huge, government should have been in there faster as a national disaster.

council did have people on the ground doing their jobs trouble is they were not visible enough..

council failed to rehouse, well yep like they got 120 free houses ready to roll, the people refused to be rehoused outside of KnC so if properties don't exist to rehouse there is not much council could do.

 

 This whole event went way beyond council abilities yet they got to made scape goats, terrible thing that occurred but when shit hits fan it gets shitty. Way too much time looking to attack public services rather than just letting things get sorted

there is/was no easy fix except these people been shifted out of area to other council houses which they mostly refused(understandable if work or schools nearby) .

The resident's association made dozens of safety complaints over many years and were not only ignored by the council but were sent threatening letters about evictions if they kept "moaning"

 

Scapegoats?!

 

DAMN RIGHT

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

OK Council made errors and reacted poorly

But dozens of councils have same cladding types so should al the leaders at those resign??

the event was huge, government should have been in there faster as a national disaster.

council did have people on the ground doing their jobs trouble is they were not visible enough..

council failed to rehouse, well yep like they got 120 free houses ready to roll, the people refused to be rehoused outside of KnC so if properties don't exist to rehouse there is not much council could do.

 

 This whole event went way beyond council abilities yet they got to made scape goats, terrible thing that occurred but when shit hits fan it gets shitty. Way too much time looking to attack public services rather than just letting things get sorted

there is/was no easy fix except these people been shifted out of area to other council houses which they mostly refused(understandable if work or schools nearby) .

 

I think the Guardian said on Saturday that either the chief exec or the council leader who resigned earned ?15,000 a month. ?15k a month! If something like Grenfell Tower happens on your watch and is then followed by an inept handling of the aftermath, you simply have to go.

 

Most councils in the UK are fairly skint or at the very least stretched. That particular council has been stockpiling money to the tune of ?200m+ while offering tax rebates, for no obvious reason. They've been found out big time.

[CJGJ]

Here we go with politicians telling lies to curry favour with the public and some of the tenants I'm sorry to say asking the impossible...

 

It comes amid growing pressure for Sir Martin Moore-Bick - the judge leading the inquiry into the fire - to stand down.

Earlier, Labour's Emma Dent Coad, MP for Kensington, said he was "a technocrat" who lacked "credibility" with victims.

She said she had spoken to hundreds of people affected by the fire who were unhappy with Sir Martin's appointment.

 

Did she really speak to hundreds who were unhappy ?..I don't think so  and

 

On Sunday, Labour MP David Lammy said a "white, upper-middle class man" who had "never" visited a tower block housing estate should not have been appointed.

 

So according to him it should have been a black or Asian working class man leading the enquiry...oh and he should have visited a tower block in a housing estate otherwise he has no credibility. 

 

As to the tenants some seem to think that permanent accommodation can just appear out of thin air and are refusing temp accommodation. Of course there are issues but it is unrealistic to think it can happen in a few weeks.

 

I don't want to seem harsh but realism needs to be the order of the day for some and the sad attempts to make political capital out of the situation just saddens me.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

Here we go with politicians telling lies to curry favour with the public and some of the tenants I'm sorry to say asking the impossible...

 

It comes amid growing pressure for Sir Martin Moore-Bick - the judge leading the inquiry into the fire - to stand down.

Earlier, Labour's Emma Dent Coad, MP for Kensington, said he was "a technocrat" who lacked "credibility" with victims.

She said she had spoken to hundreds of people affected by the fire who were unhappy with Sir Martin's appointment.

 

Did she really speak to hundreds who were unhappy ?..I don't think so and

 

On Sunday, Labour MP David Lammy said a "white, upper-middle class man" who had "never" visited a tower block housing estate should not have been appointed.

 

So according to him it should have been a black or Asian working class man leading the enquiry...oh and he should have visited a tower block in a housing estate otherwise he has no credibility.

 

As to the tenants some seem to think that permanent accommodation can just appear out of thin air and are refusing temp accommodation. Of course there are issues but it is unrealistic to think it can happen in a few weeks.

 

I don't want to seem harsh but realism needs to be the order of the day for some and the sad attempts to make political capital out of the situation just saddens me.

Their objections to the inquiry judge seem to based on little more than prejudice of how he will handle the case.

 

Which is fairly ironic really.

 

Like you say, politicians on all sides are making this worse.

[Victorian]

Around 8 cases of alleged fraud being investigated regarding bogus claims of bereavement, etc.

 

Also, some reports of missing items and large amounts of cash from properties in the building. Including properties largely untouched by the fire. Despite the building seemingly having been secured and guarded around the clock.

 

If found to be true... oh dear. The mind boggles.

[Cade]

Another block of flats in Croydon was fitted with the same cladding as was on Grenfell.

 

Owner was ordered to have it removed by the Government and the Housing, Communities and Local Govt Secretary said that the owner should pick up the bill for the removal.

 

Instead, the landlord has sent out letters to tenants, telling them that they'll be liable for £31,300 each.

 

On top of that, the landlord has hired "fire marshalls" who patrol the grounds at night at a cost of £4,000 a week, which he is also charging the tenants for.

 

 

 

The residents weren't the ones who installed the death trap you absolute roaster.

[Jamboelite]

31 minutes ago, Cade said:

Another block of flats in Croydon was fitted with the same cladding as was on Grenfell.

 

Owner was ordered to have it removed by the Government and the Housing, Communities and Local Govt Secretary said that the owner should pick up the bill for the removal.

 

Instead, the landlord has sent out letters to tenants, telling them that they'll be liable for £31,300 each.

 

On top of that, the landlord has hired "fire marshalls" who patrol the grounds at night at a cost of £4,000 a week, which he is also charging the tenants for.

 

 

 

The residents weren't the ones who installed the death trap you absolute roaster.

Surely someone will step in on that ? Legally there must be recourse from the tenants.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

37 minutes ago, Cade said:

Another block of flats in Croydon was fitted with the same cladding as was on Grenfell.

 

Owner was ordered to have it removed by the Government and the Housing, Communities and Local Govt Secretary said that the owner should pick up the bill for the removal.

 

Instead, the landlord has sent out letters to tenants, telling them that they'll be liable for £31,300 each.

 

On top of that, the landlord has hired "fire marshalls" who patrol the grounds at night at a cost of £4,000 a week, which he is also charging the tenants for.

 

 

 

The residents weren't the ones who installed the death trap you absolute roaster.

 

You're not blaming the Tories, well I'm shocked.

 

Seriously though, the landlord should be picking up the tab for this, let's just hope the authorities can exercise some legal angle to force the landlord to comply with their demands, and if not, well let the law deal with that, often the threat of a long stretch inside for manslaughter sometimes has the desired effect.

 

Some private landlords are pure *****, but that's always been the case, unfortunately.

 

 

[ri Alban]

9 hours ago, Cade said:

Another block of flats in Croydon was fitted with the same cladding as was on Grenfell.

 

Owner was ordered to have it removed by the Government and the Housing, Communities and Local Govt Secretary said that the owner should pick up the bill for the removal.

 

Instead, the landlord has sent out letters to tenants, telling them that they'll be liable for £31,300 each.

 

On top of that, the landlord has hired "fire marshalls" who patrol the grounds at night at a cost of £4,000 a week, which he is also charging the tenants for.

 

 

 

The residents weren't the ones who installed the death trap you absolute roaster.

They didn't either. As for cost, almost of these refurbs were council grants, so they're the ones responsible for the removal etc... 

Edited January 18, 2018 by ri Alban

[zoltan socrates]

12 hours ago, Cade said:

Another block of flats in Croydon was fitted with the same cladding as was on Grenfell.

 

Owner was ordered to have it removed by the Government and the Housing, Communities and Local Govt Secretary said that the owner should pick up the bill for the removal.

 

Instead, the landlord has sent out letters to tenants, telling them that they'll be liable for £31,300 each.

 

On top of that, the landlord has hired "fire marshalls" who patrol the grounds at night at a cost of £4,000 a week, which he is also charging the tenants for.

 

 

 

The residents weren't the ones who installed the death trap you absolute roaster.

Nothing but socialist inspired anecdotal pish unless you have a link

Edited January 18, 2018 by zoltan socrates

[tian447]

34 minutes ago, zoltan socrates said:

Nothing but socialist inspired anecdotal pish unless you have a link

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-42726315

 

Front page of the BBC website - wasn't exactly hard to find.

[zoltan socrates]

Just now, tian447 said:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-42726315

 

Front page of the BBC website - wasn't exactly hard to find.

Cheers, even easier if yohu get some one to do it for you

[tian447]

Just now, zoltan socrates said:

Cheers, even easier if yohu get some one to do it for you

 

 

Here's a link to it on the Guardian as well - https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/jan/17/citiscape-croydon-2m-recladding-bill-prompted-grenfell-disaster

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

Quite simply, the f4nny who leases this tower block should pay for it, the greedy, horrible *****.

[zoltan socrates]

2 hours ago, tian447 said:

 

 

Here's a link to it on the Guardian as well - https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/jan/17/citiscape-croydon-2m-recladding-bill-prompted-grenfell-disaster

Thanks tian, top performance !

 

why is it all left wing 'gandist sources though?

 

curious

[ri Alban]

42 minutes ago, zoltan socrates said:

Thanks tian, top performance !

 

why is it all left wing 'gandist sources though?

 

curious

I'll hazard a guess. Right wing capitalists don't give a shit about anyone but themselves.

[Cade]

When you spend £10million on a refurb, you kind of expect it to be done right, don't you?!

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/apr/16/botched-refurbishment-fuelled-grenfell-tower-fire-says-leaked-report

[doctor jambo]

On ‎17‎/‎01‎/‎2018 at 20:55, Cade said:

Another block of flats in Croydon was fitted with the same cladding as was on Grenfell.

 

Owner was ordered to have it removed by the Government and the Housing, Communities and Local Govt Secretary said that the owner should pick up the bill for the removal.

 

Instead, the landlord has sent out letters to tenants, telling them that they'll be liable for £31,300 each.

 

On top of that, the landlord has hired "fire marshalls" who patrol the grounds at night at a cost of £4,000 a week, which he is also charging the tenants for.

 

 

 

The residents weren't the ones who installed the death trap you absolute roaster.

Landlords being in the business of turning a profit on their properties.

So either they reclaim the money from their rentals,

or leave the cladding

or look at the cost and sell all the properties

[Cade]

All the deathtrap flats are losing value every day.

Nobody wants to rent a deathtrap and nobody wants to buy one in the knowledge that you need to spend millions removing death trap cladding.

 

 

*Also, the leaked report states that if Grenfell had been left as it was, then the fire would have been contained and nobody would have died.

Edited April 16, 2018 by Cade

[Hasselhoff]

On 17/01/2018 at 21:43, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

You're not blaming the Tories, well I'm shocked.

 

Seriously though, the landlord should be picking up the tab for this, let's just hope the authorities can exercise some legal angle to force the landlord to comply with their demands, and if not, well let the law deal with that, often the threat of a long stretch inside for manslaughter sometimes has the desired effect.

 

Some private landlords are pure *****, but that's always been the case, unfortunately.

 

 

 

Indeed, landlords are pretty low when it comes to morals. Increases to the income tax rate or charges introduced for stamp duty on second property are just handed over for the tenants to pay. This means that some tenants are priced out of staying on and inevitably the landlord will get someone who is willing to pay the increased rent. 

 

The "tax the rich" policy often backfires as the rich are quite good at passing on the costs. Do it in a roundabout method and they will always find a way to make someone else pay the increase

[Cade]

Inquiry had to be halted yesterday after raw footage of people trapped in the tower was played without being announced ahead of time.

Survivors and the families of the dead were in the room and several of them broke down, stormed out and needed medical attention for panic attacks.

The inquiry is also being moved from near the site of the tragedy to further into the city centre, so it's easier for lawyers to commute there every day.

Of course, this means that the people of Grenfell will have to travel further to attend it.

 

Also, the £400million fund that the Government promised to set up in order to pay for the replacing of death-trap cladding on residential tower blocks across the UK has been revealed not to be new money after all, but is being taken out of the Affordable Homes Programme.

Why the local authorities, housing associations and private landlords who paid to install the death-trap vanity cladding are not liable to pay to have it replaced is beyond me. 

 

Edited May 23, 2018 by Cade

[Helzibob]

I see there’s a building with the same cladding in Glasgow and Wimpey have agreed to fund the replacement. The owners were thinking they would get hit with a bill of about £30,000 each. Must be a massive relief. 

[Shooter McGavin]

With all the horrible things happening around the world, theres not a lot that really gets to me but this case has been horrific. Turns my stomach every time something new unfolds in it. 

[Victorian]

Interesting,  disturbing and surprising evidence from the initial Fire Service OIC.     Serious questions to answer for the London Fire Services now.      Basically admitting he did not have any training or awareness of tower fire evac proceedures or cladding fires.     He was also involved with a previous inspection of the tower.     

 

WT actual F?

 

But.. great news for other people who needed the granny taken off them.

[Gershwin]

4 hours ago, Victorian said:

Interesting,  disturbing and surprising evidence from the initial Fire Service OIC.     Serious questions to answer for the London Fire Services now.      Basically admitting he did not have any training or awareness of tower fire evac proceedures or cladding fires.     He was also involved with a previous inspection of the tower.     

 

WT actual F?

 

But.. great news for other people who needed the granny taken off them.

 

Was quite amazed by the stuff he was coming out with today.

[Victorian]

5 minutes ago, Gershwin said:

 

Was quite amazed by the stuff he was coming out with today.

Staggering.     His bosses must be thrilled.      Shit just hit the fan for them.

[Mikey1874]

I said from Day 1 that the Fire Service failed people. 

 

Clearly firemen saved peoples lives. Risked their own lives too.

 

But there is a catalogue of failings and sadly I suggest this is just the start. Fire Service a tradtional military type service clearly has people who can't think for themselves as per today. But I also suspect we'll hear about issues with equipment too including a lack of breathing apparatus.  

 

The people who should go to jail are those responsible for the defective materials. But the Fire Service could have saved most of the people who died. Sorry if anyone is offended by that. 

 

 

Edited June 25, 2018 by Mikey1874

[Mikey1874]

On the other hand this is an interesting article by a firefighter. 

 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/voices/grenfell-tower-fire-one-year-one-kensington-a8397276.html%3famp

 

But the evidence so far isn't great. 

[Victorian]

I dare say there will be a lot of blame tennis going on regarding funding and budgets and cuts and so on and so on but there can be no excuse whatsoever for a major fire being managed by a grossly non competent incident commander.       Someone's knackers will be in the vice.

[Mikey1874]

On Thursday the inquiry heard about a 16 year old girl from the 20th floor. A firefighter spoke of how he firstly was forced back by the smoke but then went back up to her flat on the 20th floor using breathing apparatus. She wasn't there.

 

But where she was was on the phone to the emergency service for nearly an hour. She had gone to the 23rd floor where she was with 10 others. The information wasn't passed on to firefighters. She died. 

[Gershwin]

Part of me wonders what I'd have done if I was say 15/20 floors up?

 

I'd certainly have been rather taken aback to be told to stay in the building.

 

Can't imagine what it's like trying to navigate my way out/breath with all that putrid smoke though.

 

I always have stupid thoughts like hoping folk on the ground would build a tower of mattresses so I could jump to safety.

Edited June 25, 2018 by Gershwin

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

8 hours ago, Gershwin said:

Part of me wonders what I'd have done if I was say 15/20 floors up?

 

I'd certainly have been rather taken aback to be told to stay in the building.

 

Can't imagine what it's like trying to navigate my way out/breath with all that putrid smoke though.

 

I always have stupid thoughts like hoping folk on the ground would build a tower of mattresses so I could jump to safety.

 

There’s no way i’d have stayed put. It’s counter intuitive 

[I P Knightley]

8 hours ago, Gershwin said:

I always have stupid thoughts like hoping folk on the ground would build a tower of mattresses so I could jump to safety.

That was my thinking, too. Get everyone to chuck their mattresses out the window & bring them from neighbouring houses. Cleverly stacked and then hope for the best for jumpers. I'm not convinced, though, that in a time of such panic and mayhem, enough people would get their focus together to make something like that happen.