Entire high rise alight in London

[Victorian]

Further damning evidence from Michael Downden.      He has given evidence that he was hopelessly under-resourced to deal with the incident and that normal command protocols were not followed regarding a handover to a more senior officer once the fire service attendance had reached a larger size.     Disappointingly,    it seems he has not been asked why he was not relieved of command by a more senior officer.     

 

Feel sorry for this boy.    Obviously destroyed by it and so far,   hung out like a tea towel.     The really telling answers are still to come.

[felix]

The fire service shouldn't be on trial here.

Look forward to hearing evidence from government ministers who should be.

Especially one's responsible for dealing with the coroners recommendations after the Lakanal House fire in 2009.

 

[The Mighty Thor]

3 hours ago, Victorian said:

Further damning evidence from Michael Downden.      He has given evidence that he was hopelessly under-resourced to deal with the incident and that normal command protocols were not followed regarding a handover to a more senior officer once the fire service attendance had reached a larger size.     Disappointingly,    it seems he has not been asked why he was not relieved of command by a more senior officer.     

 

Feel sorry for this boy.    Obviously destroyed by it and so far,   hung out like a tea towel.     The really telling answers are still to come.

Like most things that get out of hand it starts with a basic error. 

 

What remains to be seen is whether that basic error was allowing extremely flammable composite cladding to be fitted to a residential building, which opens up regulatory bodies, local authority and government or the basic error of first responding firefighters faced with a chaotic scene, the outcome of said cladding catching fire.

 

I suspect some poor fecker, like Michael Dowden, will become a lightning rod for the whole thing and those up the food chain will remain untarnished. As per.

[Cade]

Blame the firefighters who responded to the situation caused by slack Government regulations and penny pinching by the richest council in the entire nation.

[Victorian]

The Fire Service hierarchy need to be forced to answer for the issues raised by Downden.     The government should be forced to justify the Fire Service budgets.    Both are important but separate strands of this inquiry.    I'm not that hopeful we'll get the answers.

Edited June 26, 2018 by Victorian

[Victorian]

14 minutes ago, Cade said:

Blame the firefighters who responded to the situation caused by slack Government regulations and penny pinching by the richest council in the entire nation.

 

Anyone blaming the firefighters?

[Bindy Badgy]

To his credit, it looks like he's going to be completely honest about everything. Probably not much comfort to the families right now but better in the long run than having someone trying to cover their own ass.

[Tazio]

A few strong responses on social media from firefighting organisations etc so far in relation to the line of questioning. 

[Mikey1874]

4 hours ago, Tazio said:

A few strong responses on social media from firefighting organisations etc so far in relation to the line of questioning. 

 

General public too. Have a look at say the Daily Mail comments on the Fire Service commander's sister supporting him.

 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5891603/amp/Bravest-man-know-Sister-firefighter-centre-Grenfell-inquiry-praises-brother.html

 

For some people perhaps the Fire Service can't be questioned. 

[Victorian]

That firefighters union has acted in utter contempt of the inquiry and should be served with some kind of legal action to prevent further statements.     How can a ****ing union unilaterally appoint itself as a competent body to form the remit of this inquiry and it's officers?       Absolutely rancid whataboutery at the expense of what the survivors and bereaved need.   Answers,  truth and accountability.      

[Scnorthedinburgh]

I am assuming you are all building your opinions on the actions the fire fighters from press reports?

I suggest going to the enquiry website and reading the evidence yourself. The ff who have given evidence so far have their statements and notes online.

Might change your opinion on their actions that night.

The fb log of everything that happened that night is also available.

Very transparent enquiry, the press always have to pick the sensational part of a story.

[Mikey1874]

2 hours ago, Scnorthedinburgh said:

I am assuming you are all building your opinions on the actions the fire fighters from press reports?

I suggest going to the enquiry website and reading the evidence yourself. The ff who have given evidence so far have their statements and notes online.

Might change your opinion on their actions that night.

The fb log of everything that happened that night is also available.

Very transparent enquiry, the press always have to pick the sensational part of a story.

 

Here's the link to the Enquiry including evidence. Some of the documents are very large in MB size. 

 

https://www.grenfelltowerinquiry.org.uk

 

Includes witness statements including the Fire Fighter giving evidence just now. 

[maroonlegions]

On 25/06/2018 at 18:16, Victorian said:

Interesting,  disturbing and surprising evidence from the initial Fire Service OIC.     Serious questions to answer for the London Fire Services now.      Basically admitting he did not have any training or awareness of tower fire evac proceedures or cladding fires.     He was also involved with a previous inspection of the tower.     

 

WT actual F?

 

But.. great news for other people who needed the granny taken off them.

 

This fire was never going to be controlled in such a way to save the majority of those lifes lost. Pure and simple it was  caused by ,the cheap cladding , the cheaper option,  that those in positions  of power gave SANCTIONS to use on this tower block. What we are seeing now is a new low in the blame game, the possible shifting of blame to the fire service, and away from those insidious cowards that gave to go ahead to use this banned outer panel base (in other countries), and the reason to save money.

 

 

The man overseeing the Grenfell fire panel advised ministers to cut fire funding by £200m

 

INDEPENDENT.CO.UK

 

 

 

 

 

[Mikey1874]

Patience

 

Inquiry is starting with those dealing with the incident as it happened mainly the Fire Service. The council, manufacturers etc will get their full scrutiny. And jail eventually. 

 

But already we've heard that radios didn't work properly, the guy in charge didn't have proper training, the 999 phone people didn't pass on information to the firefighters about the location of people. And that's just the start.

 

Lawyers representing the deceased/ relatives/ residents are asking why the Fire Service told people to stay in their homes and whether this lead to people dying. Read this and feel the anger. 

 

https://www.grenfelltowerinquiry.org.uk/evidence/bereaved-survivors-and-residents-g3-opening-statement

 

We've also heard/ read a lot of great work firefighters and others did including to save lives. 

 

So wait. Council and others will get hammered when it's their turn. Next few weeks will show the bravery and selflessness of the firefighters. 

 

 

[Victorian]

1 hour ago, Mikey1874 said:

Patience

 

Inquiry is starting with those dealing with the incident as it happened mainly the Fire Service. The council, manufacturers etc will get their full scrutiny. And jail eventually. 

 

But already we've heard that radios didn't work properly, the guy in charge didn't have proper training, the 999 phone people didn't pass on information to the firefighters about the location of people. And that's just the start.

 

Lawyers representing the deceased/ relatives/ residents are asking why the Fire Service told people to stay in their homes and whether this lead to people dying. Read this and feel the anger. 

 

https://www.grenfelltowerinquiry.org.uk/evidence/bereaved-survivors-and-residents-g3-opening-statement

 

We've also heard/ read a lot of great work firefighters and others did including to save lives. 

 

So wait. Council and others will get hammered when it's their turn. Next few weeks will show the bravery and selflessness of the firefighters. 

 

 

 

Excellent post.

 

The Fire Service us not the cause of this scandal and it does not bear the burden of blame.     That will come later.      But it is absolutely correct that their role in trying to deal with the fire and any failings that occurred must be brought to light and dealt with.      What would be the point of improving building standards safety,    while at the same time failing to discover and eliminate unacceptable standards,  practices,  proceedures and protocols within the Fire Service?    None.     Also the bereaved deserve ALL the facts,    not just the ones the firefighters union would prefer the inquiry focused on.     The Fire Service already very obviously has some improvements to implement.

[maroonlegions]

1 hour ago, Victorian said:

 

Excellent post.

 

The Fire Service us not the cause of this scandal and it does not bear the burden of blame.     That will come later.      But it is absolutely correct that their role in trying to deal with the fire and any failings that occurred must be brought to light and dealt with.      What would be the point of improving building standards safety,    while at the same time failing to discover and eliminate unacceptable standards,  practices,  proceedures and protocols within the Fire Service?    None.     Also the bereaved deserve ALL the facts,    not just the ones the firefighters union would prefer the inquiry focused on.     The Fire Service already very obviously has some improvements to implement.

 

 

From a government who do not give a flying feck for ordinary folk never mind fire men, they will protect their own at any cost and if that is shifting blame to save skins of their own then they will.

 

The defence of those to blame is sickening and a sad indictment of the times we live in. The fire service like the fecking NHS is STARVED of resources and funding, like the police too. But that will not stop the Tory  apologises   doing what they can to shift the blame of the fire service, shameful. Can imagine such people in a room full of relatives of those who lost love ones in this AVOIDABLE tragedy.

 

They are attempting to shift a good part, if not all of the blame on a underfunded and already stretched public service as in the fire service .

 

 

 

 

The reality is that deep down money and funding directly contributed to this tragedy.Look at the cuts to the police force and the rise in crime on the streets. How long do people in need of the police wait on a response  from the  police. Then we have ambulances  taken ages to turn up when called. 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 29, 2018 by maroonlegions

[Victorian]

4 minutes ago, maroonlegions said:

 

 

From a government who do not give a flying feck for ordinary folk never mind fire men. The defence of those to blame is sickening and a sad indictment of the times we live in. The fire service like the fecking NHS is STARVED of resources and funding, like the police too. But that will not stop the Tory  apologises   doing what they can to shift the blame of the fire service, shameful. Can imagine such people in a room full of relatives of those who lost love ones in this AVOIDABLE tragedy.

 

They are attempting to shift a good part, if not all of the blame on a underfunded and already stretched public service as in the fire service .

 

 

 

 

The reality is that deep down money and funding directly contributed to this tragedy.Look at the cuts to the police force and the rise in crime on the streets. How long do people in need of the police wait on a response  from the  police. Then we have ambulances  taken ages to turn up when called. 

 

 

 

 

 

Aye ok.

 

I'm the very last person who will ever defend this government but it's a public inquiry we're talking about here.     All the facts and the roles and actions of all involved must be examined.     Fire Service included.      I hope the issue of funding is properly examined as well.

[Mikey1874]

Fire fighters have been giving evidence the last few months. That is now finished. 

 

From tomorrow those who got out alive will be giving evidence. Relatives of those who died too including phone calls before they died. So other perspectives on what happened and the Fire Service response. We'll hear from those who got out themselves and those rescued by firefighters. 

 

Info including witness statements and transcripts of hearings here

 

https://www.grenfelltowerinquiry.org.uk

 

 

[Jambo-Jimbo]

I don't like using the word scum but I'm more than happy to make an execption in this case.

 

I hope every day in jail is an utter nightmare for this low life scum.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-46289030

 

Sadly it was saying on the news that there has been several such cases following the Grenfell fire.

[Seymour M Hersh]

9 hours ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

I don't like using the word scum but I'm more than happy to make an execption in this case.

 

I hope every day in jail is an utter nightmare for this low life scum.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-46289030

 

Sadly it was saying on the news that there has been several such cases following the Grenfell fire.

 

Unfortunately things like this will always happen as nasty, unscrupulous individuals see an opportunity to make money. I doubt any of them have a conscience. 

[Mikey1874]

For anyone not following the Inquiry it's moved on significantly this week.

 

Expert witnesses make clear that flammable cladding was responsible for the spread of fire from the initial flat fire. 

 

The cladding did not meet building regulations and was so flammable nothing could have stopped it. There is a bit of a question over whether water applied from outside could have stopped it very early though there were attempts to do so. The top or 'crown' was so full of the cladding it spread all round to every side.

 

This risk should have been known by fire safety people and it meant people should have been evacuated immediately. That is where this cladding is on blocks then plans should be in place for evacuation. 

 

This inquiry is going at a snail's pace but this is major evidence likely producing some immediate action as presume a lot of people still have this cladding.

 

An Edinburgh connection with one of the expert witnesses Professor Luke Bisby at Edinburgh Univ and Dr Barbara Lane doing her PhD here.

 

Some summary news reports 

 

http://home.bt.com/news/uk-news/fire-expert-criticises-grenfell-tower-stay-put-advice-11364312211892

 

https://www.itv.com/news/london/2018-11-22/cladding-aided-fire-to-spread-through-grenfell-tower/

 

 

[Harry Potter]

1 hour ago, Mikey1874 said:

For anyone not following the Inquiry it's moved on significantly this week.

 

Expert witnesses make clear that flammable cladding was responsible for the spread of fire from the initial flat fire. 

 

The cladding did not meet building regulations and was so flammable nothing could have stopped it. There is a bit of a question over whether water applied from outside could have stopped it very early though there were attempts to do so. The top or 'crown' was so full of the cladding it spread all round to every side.

 

This risk should have been known by fire safety people and it meant people should have been evacuated immediately. That is where this cladding is on blocks then plans should be in place for evacuation. 

 

This inquiry is going at a snail's pace but this is major evidence likely producing some immediate action as presume a lot of people still have this cladding.

 

An Edinburgh connection with one of the expert witnesses Professor Luke Bisby at Edinburgh Univ and Dr Barbara Lane doing her PhD here.

 

Some summary news reports 

 

http://home.bt.com/news/uk-news/fire-expert-criticises-grenfell-tower-stay-put-advice-11364312211892

 

https://www.itv.com/news/london/2018-11-22/cladding-aided-fire-to-spread-through-grenfell-tower/

 

 

Shocking that this cladding was ever allowed to be put on buildings if it was not fireproof,  but to say that it made the fire worse is beyond rational

thinking.

How on earth was this material not banned by health and safety officials.

[Mikey1874]

15 minutes ago, Harry Potter said:

Shocking that this cladding was ever allowed to be put on buildings if it was not fireproof,  but to say that it made the fire worse is beyond rational

thinking.

How on earth was this material not banned by health and safety officials.

 

I'm no expert and I haven't read everything. But my reading of Dr Lane's summary Conclusions evidence this week raises a concern that the Building Regulations are unclear in parts. So although she  and the other experts say the cladding fails the Building Regulations there may be a concern there could be a get out for those responsible. 

 

The full picture is going to take a while at least well into next year. 

[Mikey1874]

Some might find this interesting. There are also some possible implications in regard to plastic backing on some refrigerator.

 

 

 

[Mikey1874]

This is the issue raised on plastic backing. Though this is disputed by some including manufacturers.

 

 

 

[Seymour M Hersh]

On 22/11/2018 at 17:14, Harry Potter said:

Shocking that this cladding was ever allowed to be put on buildings if it was not fireproof,  but to say that it made the fire worse is beyond rational

thinking.

How on earth was this material not banned by health and safety officials.

 

I read an article recently about that. As far back as 1999 (after previous hi-rise tragedy) a committee of MPs asked the BRL (Buildings Research Laboratory) to create a more stringent fire safety test that would move away from testing the cladding pieces individually to testing them together in a way they would be in reality.  From this came BS8414. In 2002 the EU introduced legislation overruling the use of BS8414 but leaving it as a voluntary option. It's likely this was due to the EU chasing after global warming targets the priority over safety. What followed was the introduction of new cheaper plastic foam insulation as used in Grenfell.

[Mikey1874]

48 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

I read an article recently about that. As far back as 1999 (after previous hi-rise tragedy) a committee of MPs asked the BRL (Buildings Research Laboratory) to create a more stringent fire safety test that would move away from testing the cladding pieces individually to testing them together in a way they would be in reality.  From this came BS8414. In 2002 the EU introduced legislation overruling the use of BS8414 but leaving it as a voluntary option. It's likely this was due to the EU chasing after global warming targets the priority over safety. What followed was the introduction of new cheaper plastic foam insulation as used in Grenfell.

 

No matter all that which may be valid the cladding at Grenfell did not meet building regulations. The expert witnesses have stated it wasn't safe to live there such was the failings in testing and construction. Those responsible will be hopefully be suitably dealt with. Nothing to do with the EU. 

 

Edited November 27, 2018 by Mikey1874

[Seymour M Hersh]

Just now, Mikey1874 said:

 

No matter all that which may be valid the cladding at Grenfell did not meet building regulations. The expert witnesses have stated it wasn't safe to live there such was the failings in testing and construction. Those responsible will be hopefully be suitably dealt with. Nothing to do with EU. 

 

 

It's everything to do with the EU. If they don't overrule BS8414 then safety levels in this country are much higher. 

[Mikey1874]

4 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

It's everything to do with the EU. If they don't overrule BS8414 then safety levels in this country are much higher. 

 

There's a litany of failings regarding the cladding in the expert witness reports.

 

I think the main underlying reason was cost cutting by the council/ management agency  going for plastic rather than zinc to save £300k.

 

There is cladding that is totally fire proof. Instead flammable cladding was installed. Nothing to do with the EU. 

[Seymour M Hersh]

8 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

 

There's a litany of failings regarding the cladding in the expert witness reports.

 

I think the main underlying reason was cost cutting by the council/ management agency  going for plastic rather than zinc to save £300k.

 

There is cladding that is totally fire proof. Instead flammable cladding was installed. Nothing to do with the EU. 

 

The EU passed the legislation that allowed the more flammable and cheaper cladding to be used. Had they not then developers would have had to install the safer cladding. By the way Im not suggesting this is the sole reason for the tragedy.

Edited November 27, 2018 by Seymour M Hersh

[Cade]

The EU forced the UK to lower it's fire safety regulations?

 

[Mikey1874]

12 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

The EU passed the legislation that allowed the more flammable and cheaper cladding to be used. Had they not then developers would have had to install the safer cladding. By the way Im not suggesting this is the sole reason for the tragedy.

 

Okay fair enough. 

 

I have seen this argument already. I don't dispute the idea of different regulations changing circumstances. 

 

But we have vastly different concepts of cause and effect. EU are pretty low down on list of those responsible for me anyway. And overall the trend is towards greater safety last 30 years. 

[felix]

2 hours ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

I read an article recently about that. As far back as 1999 (after previous hi-rise tragedy) a committee of MPs asked the BRL (Buildings Research Laboratory) to create a more stringent fire safety test that would move away from testing the cladding pieces individually to testing them together in a way they would be in reality.  From this came BS8414. In 2002 the EU introduced legislation overruling the use of BS8414 but leaving it as a voluntary option. It's likely this was due to the EU chasing after global warming targets the priority over safety. What followed was the introduction of new cheaper plastic foam insulation as used in Grenfell.

 

The precursor for Grenfell was Lakanal House in 2009 (see my post above).

The government at the time reviewed the (English)  building regulations but did nothing. Ministers responsible  should be feeling very uneasy.

The fire you're maybe thinking about is Garnock Court in Irvine (1999) which led the Scottish Government to tighten their building regulations in 2005 - which is why Grenfell couldn't have passed building regulations up here.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-40406057

 

It's still debated whether Grenfell's cladding complied or not, Approved Document B being very unclear, as pointed out in the Hackett report.

Grenfells failure had everything to do with cost-cutting, poor workmanship and a wooly Building Regulation system in England, and  nothing whatsoever to do with the EU .

 

[Seymour M Hersh]

2 hours ago, Cade said:

The EU forced the UK to lower it's fire safety regulations?

 

 

No it made the higher standard optional and as it was more expensive, well even you can guess the rest. 

[The Mighty Thor]

Let's be honest. Building and fire safety regulations are outdated and vague.  

The enquiry will spend thousands of hours and make recommendations which the government will nod agreement on and then do feck all with as it doesn't suit the landlords/councils/corporations that support and fund them. 

Twas ever thus.

The longer it drags and the further away we get from the fire, the memories dim and the inevitable fudge will pass with not so much as a ripple in the press and it'll all be forgotten until the next tragedy.

Sad indictment on our society and this country. 

 

[felix]

2 hours ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Let's be honest. Building and fire safety regulations are outdated and vague.  

The enquiry will spend thousands of hours and make recommendations which the government will nod agreement on and then do feck all with as it doesn't suit the landlords/councils/corporations that support and fund them. 

Twas ever thus.

The longer it drags and the further away we get from the fire, the memories dim and the inevitable fudge will pass with not so much as a ripple in the press and it'll all be forgotten until the next tragedy.

Sad indictment on our society and this country. 

 

On the contrary.

The Grenfell effect will be massive; involving a change to  legislation and the way high-rise domestic property is designed in future years.

[Mikey1874]

On 28/11/2018 at 09:25, The Mighty Thor said:

Let's be honest. Building and fire safety regulations are outdated and vague.  

The enquiry will spend thousands of hours and make recommendations which the government will nod agreement on and then do feck all with as it doesn't suit the landlords/councils/corporations that support and fund them. 

Twas ever thus.

The longer it drags and the further away we get from the fire, the memories dim and the inevitable fudge will pass with not so much as a ripple in the press and it'll all be forgotten until the next tragedy.

Sad indictment on our society and this country. 

 

 

22 hours ago, felix said:

On the contrary.

The Grenfell effect will be massive; involving a change to  legislation and the way high-rise domestic property is designed in future years.

 

On the matter of learning lessons there are a range of actions being taken already by various bodies.

 

I was aware London Fire Brigade immediately started a review to assess risks and learn lessons. They have already made changes and more are under review. 

 

Reports are published here

https://www.grenfelltowerinquiry.org.uk/evidence

[Mikey1874]

On 28/11/2018 at 09:25, The Mighty Thor said:

Let's be honest. Building and fire safety regulations are outdated and vague.  

The enquiry will spend thousands of hours and make recommendations which the government will nod agreement on and then do feck all with as it doesn't suit the landlords/councils/corporations that support and fund them. 

Twas ever thus.

The longer it drags and the further away we get from the fire, the memories dim and the inevitable fudge will pass with not so much as a ripple in the press and it'll all be forgotten until the next tragedy.

Sad indictment on our society and this country. 

 

 

On 28/11/2018 at 12:15, felix said:

On the contrary.

The Grenfell effect will be massive; involving a change to  legislation and the way high-rise domestic property is designed in future years.

 

Some changes here 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/nov/29/councils-cleared-to-rip-grenfell-style-cladding-from-private-buildings

 

[The Mighty Thor]

I get all the replies with changes to fire brigade policy on how to handle such incidents. That's right and proper.

I'm talking about the institutionalised corner cutting that allowed a council/housing association/contractor to install something that was blatantly inherently unsafe in the first instance. 

It will continue to be allowed as long as there's a buck to be made. 

It's much wider than grenfell and encompasses fire regulations, sprinkler systems, fire detection and alert systems and emergency escape lighting in all domestic and public buildings. 

[felix]

On ‎29‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 16:18, The Mighty Thor said:

I get all the replies with changes to fire brigade policy on how to handle such incidents. That's right and proper.

I'm talking about the institutionalised corner cutting that allowed a council/housing association/contractor to install something that was blatantly inherently unsafe in the first instance. 

It will continue to be allowed as long as there's a buck to be made. 

It's much wider than grenfell and encompasses fire regulations, sprinkler systems, fire detection and alert systems and emergency escape lighting in all domestic and public buildings. 

What was installed was unsafe, but it wasn't blatantly so.

Many thought at the time (and still do) it was compliant with regulations.

 Building Regulations will change very soon, , and become clearer and more rigorous , including changes to sprinkler provision and  escape routes.  Corner cutting  always exists, but  tighter legislation will make it more difficult.

As I said  - government led legislative changes post Grenfell will be massive, and wont be feck all twas ever thus ! 

The government can't ignore  this one - and wont.

[Cade]

Why Kensington council were penny pinching on the cladding is beyond me.

It's the richest council the entire UK, with cash reserves running into multi millions.

They were even giving out rebates to higher band council tax payers as they had so much money sloshing around FFS.

 

But when it came to installing cladding on low income tower housing, penny pinching was very much to the fore. And over 80 people died as a result.

[shaun.lawson]

On 25/06/2018 at 18:52, Mikey1874 said:

I said from Day 1 that the Fire Service failed people. 

 

So have I. This was an inferno which, while it was still increasing in strength, was being broadcast all over the world. Anyone with half a brain could've seen that the 'stay put' advice was rendered useless the moment the fire started climbing up outside. Yet the advice continued, with horrific consequences.

 

I don't blame the fire fighters in any way. Many of them could've been killed too. I do blame:

 

- Their leaders, ie. those responsible for making decisions

 

- The confusing, atrociously poorly defined building regulations

 

- The cladding (obviously)

 

- Kensington Council

 

- The government: both for its cuts to the fire services, and its disgraceful lack of response to Lacknall House

 

- Our entire, messed up beyond belief political culture: which allows building companies to cut corners, complains endlessly about 'red tape' (read: Health and Safety), thinks that cuts have no consequences, and allows the monstrous reality of some of the poorest people in the UK being treated with such contempt by the richest council in the UK.

[shaun.lawson]

On 27/11/2018 at 16:16, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

It's everything to do with the EU. If they don't overrule BS8414 then safety levels in this country are much higher. 

 

Scotland and England have different building regulations. The type of cladding used at Grenfell is banned for high-rise buildings (above 18m high) in Scotland

 

Last I checked, Scotland and England were part of the UK, which is part of the EU. If you could run past me how this is the EU's fault - rather than you coming out with yet more total bollocks - I'd be most grateful.

[Justin Z]

On 27/11/2018 at 19:33, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

The EU passed the legislation that allowed the more flammable and cheaper cladding to be used. Had they not then developers would have had to install the safer cladding. By the way Im not suggesting this is the sole reason for the tragedy.

 

On 27/11/2018 at 21:53, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

No it made the higher standard optional and as it was more expensive, well even you can guess the rest. 

 

Although I'm curious as to what this legislation you're referring to is, either way this is not how giving effect to EU law works. The UK was free to have its own levels of standards beyond any EU minimum standard, which at a cursory glance, it does: BS8414 still appears to be effective, with the latest revision as of 2015. Nothing the EU could have passed could have made something that was mandatory under British law suddenly optional, so the only possibility is that the safer cladding was optional here too.

 

Therefore, any regulatory fault is with UK lawmakers for not making BS8414 a minimum standard, assuming they were minded to do so at any time, which I have no idea if they were or not.

[Mikey1874]

Just saw that the (initial) Inquiry Report is being published 30 October. 

 

Full Inquiry is still going on with more public hearings to come. The point of this is to make recommendations to improve public safety. Though for example London Fire Brigade, following their own internal review has already made a lot of changes. 

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/oct/04/grenfell-tower-report-to-be-released-a-day-before-brexit-deadline

Edited October 5, 2019 by Mikey1874

[Mikey1874]

The Inquiry into the Grenfell fire has finally ended. 

 

It ended with how everyone died summarised here. 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/jul/21/grenfell-fire-inquiry-ends-with-shocking-reminder-of-the-human-cost

[Dagger Is Back]

26 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

The Inquiry into the Grenfell fire has finally ended. 

 

It ended with how everyone died summarised here. 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/jul/21/grenfell-fire-inquiry-ends-with-shocking-reminder-of-the-human-cost

That was a truly hellish read Mikey 😢

[A Boy Named Crow]

2 hours ago, Mikey1874 said:

The Inquiry into the Grenfell fire has finally ended. 

 

It ended with how everyone died summarised here. 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/jul/21/grenfell-fire-inquiry-ends-with-shocking-reminder-of-the-human-cost

I don't think I'll ever read this. I'm sure people went through horrible things in that building. 

[trotter]

3 hours ago, Dagger Is Back said:

That was a truly hellish read Mikey 😢

That was grim reading. 

 

Makes you even angrier that it's very unlikely that anyone will ever face charges, corporate or otherwise for it. 

 

Even more galling was the current wankers in Westminster agreeing with the companies in question that any testimony they gave could not be used against them.

 

Spineless shitehawks. The lot of them.

[The Real Maroonblood]

9 hours ago, Mikey1874 said:

The Inquiry into the Grenfell fire has finally ended. 

 

It ended with how everyone died summarised here. 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/jul/21/grenfell-fire-inquiry-ends-with-shocking-reminder-of-the-human-cost

That was very difficult reading but thanks for sharing.