Manchester Arena

[Bindy Badgy]

Reporter on Sky News was just saying that Police are warning people about fake donation sites which have sprung up.

 

I despair sometimes the depths some low lifes will sink to.

 

is there any need to donate money for this type of incident? I can see the point if it happened in Haiti or some other developing country but the UK should have the necessary infrastructure in place to ensure that everyone affected gets professional help from councilors, doctors and so on. I'd be happy to throw some of my own money at it if I thought it would help but surely this should be the Government's job?

[i8hibsh]

Spoken from a position of true privilege.

 

As are most people in your beloved Muslim community in the UK.

 

But let us be honest here you meant 'white privilege' - we both know.

[Francis Albert]

I am sick to death of hearing about how insulting things are to the Muslim community or people tip toeing around 24/7 in order not to offend Muslims.  I literally do not give a flying **** about the feelings of the Muslim community.  I find it sickening the desperation from some people (the usual suspects) to defend the Muslim community at every opportunity.  I seriously question their motives in doing so.  The only ?feelings? I give a **** about are those of the loved ones of the murdered.   

Since you quote me I should clarify that I was defending the Muslim community in this case because it seemed to have done what it could to alert the authorities to the risk posed by this murderer. And I do care about the feelings of the Muslim community. The idea that we have to tip-toe around the issue seems to me a fundamental insult to Muslims in this country.

 

The Guardian yesterday reported on the background of the murderer in an article on pages 1 and 4. It quoted some members of the Libyan community and said "none appeared to have accepted that British-born Abedi - a slightly withdrawn, devout young man, always respectful to his elders - would become a mass murderer" - the Guardian's own words, based on comments of friends and family. But more than half the article (the bit on page 4) reported on his Imam's complete contradiction of this image and the murderers' connections with someone in the Libyan community imprisoned for recruiting terrorists, and his visits to Libya. The headlines - on page 1 ""Quiet" Mancunian of Libyan Backkground Named as Killer" and on page 4 "Manchester's Libyans say mass killer was a "quiet devout boy"" were a gross distortion of the contents of the report. Why? The Guardian's suggested response in its Leader to the attack was clamping down on hate crime and incendiary comments designed to inflame "frought situations". In context they clearly meant anti-Muslim comments. As if terrorism is driven mainly by hate crimes and incendiary comments and that the Muslim community would be inclined to  support or sustain Islamic murderers on those grounds.

 

White working class people as a class were and are vilified as racist and thick all over the pages of the Guardian since the Brexit vote, The Guardian seemed to have no concern that the incendiary comments about a whole class of society might trigger a violent reaction from members of that class.

[Taffin]

So our government and security sevices are deliberately encouraging (or at least not doing all they can to prevent) these attacks to bolster the Conservative Party? Wow, just wow.

It wouldn't be the first, or the last time a government used threats to the safety of their populace to further their rule.

[Prince Buaben]

Because these kinds of attacks suit the narrative that we need a strong and stable government.

 

Wondered how long it would till i seen something like this.

Heard of 5live earlier that Abedis brother and father have been 'arrested' by Milita in Libya. The brother has been interigated and has links with Islamic State but there was no given reason for arresting the father. 

[TheOak88]

Go on then. What's the difference? The Crusades weren't violent? Tens of thousands weren't killed in the name of Christianity?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Your having an absolute sh!temare on this thread

[Maroon Sailor]

Still, Trident will keep us and our children safe. [emoji58]

When was the last time Britain was invaded / attacked in a full blown war ?

[redm]

Police and army have been sent to Trafford college apparently. Roads closed around it and stuff. Not clear why.

[doctor jambo]

So "we allow" is acceptable? I don't think it's Catholic schools that are causing division here.

Sectarian christian violence is Scotland is not unheard of though, and I would guess responsible for far more casualties over the years that Islam.....

[Bridge of Djoum]

I am sick to death of hearing about how insulting things are to the Muslim community or people tip toeing around 24/7 in order not to offend Muslims.  I literally do not give a flying **** about the feelings of the Muslim community.  I find it sickening the desperation from some people (the usual suspects) to defend the Muslim community at every opportunity.  I seriously question their motives in doing so.  The only ?feelings? I give a **** about are those of the loved ones of the murdered.   

If ever we needed any more proof, this post beautifully illustrates how much of a complete cretin you really are.

[Zico]

Deputy mayor Manchester - ' we must admit the problem is extremism (what? Extreme exercise?) There is no more chance of a Muslim commiting this act than a white person' (put race aside for an ideology but you mean a non Muslim is just as likely to commit suicide bombing for which 99.7% are islamist responsible (rest are PKK commies) ?

 

Andy Burnham - 'this man is not Islamic' (simple BS theological lie)

 

Why do we accept this North Korean style state propaganda? We have an official lie, u know its nonsense but you will eat it up anyway.

I think several of Burnham's comments since this happened have been insulting. He epitomises the lefts fear of calling it for what it is - the same fear that was seen in Rochdale, Rotherham etc.

[Bridge of Djoum]

When was the last time Britain was invaded / attacked in a full blown war ?

Not since King Charles II formed the Royal Navy in 1660.

 

You're welcome, Britain.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

is there any need to donate money for this type of incident? I can see the point if it happened in Haiti or some other developing country but the UK should have the necessary infrastructure in place to ensure that everyone affected gets professional help from councilors, doctors and so on. I'd be happy to throw some of my own money at it if I thought it would help but surely this should be the Government's job?

 

It's raised over ?1.2m so far.

https://www.justgiving.com/crowdfunding/westandtogethermanchester

 

I agree we should have the infrastructure in this country to deal with this, and to a large degree we do, however there will be families who have lost a 'bread winner' so to speak and may need financial assistance for the future, which the Government can not or does not cover and I think this is why the page was set up.

[doctor jambo]

I think several of Burnham's comments since this happened have been insulting. He epitomises the lefts fear of calling it for what it is - the same fear that was seen in Rochdale, Rotherham etc.

The fear of white idiots jumping on a bandwagon and starting to victimise innocent decent Muslims, sparking a rise in hate crimes against decent folk.

 

that fear you mean?

[Prince Buaben]

When was the last time Britain was invaded / attacked in a full blown war ?

 

Does the Battle of Britian count?

[glynnlondon]

It wouldn't be the first, or the last time a government used threats to the safety of their populace to further their rule.

Christ on a bike so May deliberately allowed the murder of kids at a pop concert to further her election prospects ?

Really ? Do **** off.

[Bridge of Djoum]

Does the Battle of Britian count?

Ummm, no.

[Bridge of Djoum]

Christ on a bike so May deliberately allowed the murder of kids at a pop concert to further her election prospects ?

Really ? Do **** off.

He didn't say that, and he's right.

Governments have regularly heightened security levels on a whim, with no reason or specific threat being given. GW Bush was infamous for this.

[Maroon Sailor]

Does the Battle of Britian count?

Strange how the nuclear programme in Britain started around the time of that battle

[Sten Guns]

The fear of white idiots jumping on a bandwagon and starting to victimise innocent decent Muslims, sparking a rise in hate crimes against decent folk.

 

that fear you mean?

That's probably more likely to happen if we continually avoid calling it for what it is.

[glynnlondon]

He didn't say that, and he's right.

Governments have regularly heightened security levels on a whim, with no reason or specific threat being given. GW Bush was infamous for this.

Suggest you read back the previous post.

[Zico]

The fear of white idiots jumping on a bandwagon and starting to victimise innocent decent Muslims, sparking a rise in hate crimes against decent folk.

 

that fear you mean?

No, the fear in calling Islamic terrorism...Islamic terrorism. Where are all these Muslims being killed by "white idiots"? I must've missed those news stories.

[Bridge of Djoum]

Suggest you read back the previous post.

I did. Post 782, which I quoted. ''used threats to safety''

 

Threats, not murder.

[redm]

Christ on a bike so May deliberately allowed the murder of kids at a pop concert to further her election prospects ?

Really ? Do **** off.

That's not what he said. It's an uncomfortable and awkward discussion but plenty people are having it - political journos included, so we can expect it to be reflected in the news we see.

 

https://twitter.com/think_become/status/867337463777435648

 

I only used this particular tweet because it has subtitles. I don't follow this account or anything.

[Taffin]

Christ on a bike so May deliberately allowed the murder of kids at a pop concert to further her election prospects ?

Really ? Do **** off.

I don't know did she?

 

If be very surprised if that was the case.

 

However the reporting in the wake of it and playing up to the perceived risk of people travelling in and out of the UK posing a threat certainly seems to align with Conservative policies and her narration.

 

Edit: just read back and can see why people are reading it the way they do. I'm not intentionally suggesting May actively allows it to happen or encourages it. Either just that they maybe aren't as stringent on things as we like to believe they are or (more likely) in the aftermath it allows them to peddle a story about how these situations are avoidable with a firm right wing approach to the situation to prey on the fears on the populace.

[doctor jambo]

No, the fear in calling Islamic terrorism...Islamic terrorism. Where are all these Muslims being killed by "white idiots"? I must've missed those news stories.

Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan

 

But in all seriousness the politicians have a hard job to do without inflaming knuckle draggers to take revenge on folks who have done nothing wrong.

It is a time for cool heads

[Space Mackerel]

Very interesting article that says MI5 dropped control orders of Libyan fighters allowing them untestricted travel to fight Gadaffi. A lot came from Manchester as the pic shows in article.

 

http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/sorted-mi5-how-uk-government-sent-british-libyans-fight-gaddafi-1219906488

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Rudy T]

So "we allow" is acceptable? I don't think it's Catholic schools that are causing division here.

I said it. And as I said at the time it was within the context of another post regarding "allowing" Muslim only schools and why they should be closed immediately. I merely pointed out that we have long since "allowed" Catholic only schools so there was a hypocritical nature to the suggestion. You really need to get over it!

[Tars]

Noticed many people, some on this thread, label the West as ?murderers? and acting as if USA / UK foreign policy is giving some, however little, justification to the actions of the jihadists. We have been negligent in the Middle East, sure. Criminally negligent even. But to label us as murderers, suggesting we are even slightly morally comparable to ISIS, is beyond ridiculous. Also, are people really serious when saying we are in Syria for their minerals? Could it not just be that we are concerned about the state of a country and the people within it? Anything to fit the agenda of a conspiracy theorist though.

 

Intentions matter. Hugely. The West do not intend to kill innocent civilians (despite what many of the conspiracy theorists seem to think), but it happens. That?s war, sadly. ISIS, however, do want to kill civilians. There is a massive difference in moral terms. They want to usher in a global caliphate. They throw gays off rooftops. They stone women. They burst into concert halls spraying the AK47?s. They force children to execute infidels. They drive into crowds. But nah, we?re the ones causing them to detonate their suicide vests all over Europe, it's all our fault.

 

Want to know the real motivations behind ISIS? They released a statement not too long ago, I believe it was called ?Why We Hate You & Why We Fight You?, it should be easily available on Google. Can you guess what their reasons were? I can tell you. They were explicitly religious. Sure, they may have briefly touched on foreign invasions, but their primary driver for doing what they do is due to an undying belief in martyrdom and jihad, ushering in the global caliphate, all in line with the teaching of the Quran and respective Hadith. They are telling us, clearly, what their motivations are. I recommend everyone reads it.

 

Also hearing some suggestions these people are mentally ill. Well, it?s statistically impossible for all members of ISIS to be mentally ill. Could it not just be that they are so engrossed by their religion, through decades of indoctrination, and that they genuinely believe in the paradise that awaits them for dying in defence of the faith? Combine this with the correct social factors and boom, you have a jihadist. Religion can make seemingly ordinary people believe by the billions what only a maniac could believe on his own.

[Say What Again]

It's raised over ?1.2m so far.

https://www.justgiving.com/crowdfunding/westandtogethermanchester

 

 

 

 

Manchester United and Manchester City jointly pledge ?1 million to the victims fund.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/40046082

 

Manchester City and Manchester United have jointly pledged ?1m to an emergency fund set up to support the victims of Monday's attack in the city.

The fund was set up in the wake of the suicide bomb attack at Manchester Arena which killed 22 people and injured 64.

"It is right that we present a unified response to this tragedy," said Ed Woodward, United's executive chairman.

"We have been humbled by the strength and solidarity shown by Manchester," said City chairman Khaldoon Al Mubarak.

"The hope of both our clubs is that our donation will go some small way to alleviate the daunting challenges faced by those directly affected and that our acting together will serve as a symbol to the world of the unbreakable strength of the spirit of Manchester."

The Lord Mayor-backed emergency fund was set up with the British Red Cross to help the families of those killed and injured in the attack that followed an Ariana Grande pop concert.

It has been merged with a crowdfunding campaign set up by the Manchester Evening News and, added to the pledge by the two Premier League sides, the amount raised is more than ?3m at 12:00 BST on Thursday.

[Don Dan]

Noticed many people, some on this thread, label the West as ?murderers? and acting as if USA / UK foreign policy is giving some, however little, justification to the actions of the jihadists. We have been negligent in the Middle East, sure. Criminally negligent even. But to label us as murderers, suggesting we are even slightly morally comparable to ISIS, is beyond ridiculous. Also, are people really serious when saying we are in Syria for their minerals? Could it not just be that we are concerned about the state of a country and the people within it? Anything to fit the agenda of a conspiracy theorist though.

Intentions matter. Hugely. The West do not intend to kill innocent civilians (despite what many of the conspiracy theorists seem to think), but it happens. That?s war, sadly. ISIS, however, do want to kill civilians. There is a massive difference in moral terms. They want to usher in a global caliphate. They throw gays off rooftops. They stone women. They burst into concert halls spraying the AK47?s. They force children to execute infidels. They drive into crowds. But nah, we?re the ones causing them to detonate their suicide vests all over Europe, it's all our fault.

Want to know the real motivations behind ISIS? They released a statement not too long ago, I believe it was called ?Why We Hate You & Why We Fight You?, it should be easily available on Google. Can you guess what their reasons were? I can tell you. They were explicitly religious. Sure, they may have briefly touched on foreign invasions, but their primary driver for doing what they do is due to an undying belief in martyrdom and jihad, ushering in the global caliphate, all in line with the teaching of the Quran and respective Hadith. They are telling us, clearly, what their motivations are. I recommend everyone reads it.

Also hearing some suggestions these people are mentally ill. Well, it?s statistically impossible for all members of ISIS to be mentally ill. Could it not just be that they are so engrossed by their religion, through decades of indoctrination, and that they genuinely believe in the paradise that awaits them for dying in defence of the faith? Combine this with the correct social factors and boom, you have a jihadist.

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/11793770

 

http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2017-05-25/police-say-dual-suicide-bombing-jakarta-linked-to-islamic-state/8559292?pfmredir=sm

 

Backs up your post.

[Radio Ga Ga]

Noticed many people, some on this thread, label the West as ?murderers? and acting as if USA / UK foreign policy is giving some, however little, justification to the actions of the jihadists. We have been negligent in the Middle East, sure. Criminally negligent even. But to label us as murderers, suggesting we are even slightly morally comparable to ISIS, is beyond ridiculous. Also, are people really serious when saying we are in Syria for their minerals? Could it not just be that we are concerned about the state of a country and the people within it? Anything to fit the agenda of a conspiracy theorist though.

Intentions matter. Hugely. The West do not intend to kill innocent civilians (despite what many of the conspiracy theorists seem to think), but it happens. That?s war, sadly. ISIS, however, do want to kill civilians. There is a massive difference in moral terms. They want to usher in a global caliphate. They throw gays off rooftops. They stone women. They burst into concert halls spraying the AK47?s. They force children to execute infidels. They drive into crowds. But nah, we?re the ones causing them to detonate their suicide vests all over Europe, it's all our fault.

Want to know the real motivations behind ISIS? They released a statement not too long ago, I believe it was called ?Why We Hate You & Why We Fight You?, it should be easily available on Google. Can you guess what their reasons were? I can tell you. They were explicitly religious. Sure, they may have briefly touched on foreign invasions, but their primary driver for doing what they do is due to an undying belief in martyrdom and jihad, ushering in the global caliphate, all in line with the teaching of the Quran and respective Hadith. They are telling us, clearly, what their motivations are. I recommend everyone reads it.

Also hearing some suggestions these people are mentally ill. Well, it?s statistically impossible for all members of ISIS to be mentally ill. Could it not just be that they are so engrossed by their religion, through decades of indoctrination, and that they genuinely believe in the paradise that awaits them for dying in defence of the faith? Combine this with the correct social factors and boom, you have a jihadist. Religion can make seemingly ordinary people believe by the billions what only a maniac could believe on his own.

 

Great post, those Jihadists have been brainwashed to believe in a fairy tale.

[Chester™]

Great post, those Jihadists have been brainwashed to believe in a fairy tale.

 

Suppose its a bit like Blair and Bush saying they spoke to God and received guidance from him, that they were doing the 'right' thing, before they dropped bombs on innocents and lied about information in dossiers.

[jake]

The fear of white idiots jumping on a bandwagon and starting to victimise innocent decent Muslims, sparking a rise in hate crimes against decent folk.

 

that fear you mean?

 

No i think he means the fear of being branded racist that meant the decades long rape of white girls.

Sorry white children.

 

And as for violence commited by anyone.

 

Did you not see the news.

Decent children and adults going about their lives just got murdered in the name of islam.

Ive seen your posts before and you have no trouble disrespecting poor people.

As long as theyre white.

 

So lets not try to shift the story on to racist white idiots when we should be looking at religious racist idiots.

Who are getting of scot free because anytime someone questions their crimes even the rape of vulnerable children up pop people like you to call them racist.

[jake]

Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan

 

But in all seriousness the politicians have a hard job to do without inflaming knuckle draggers to take revenge on folks who have done nothing wrong.

It is a time for cool heads

 

I agree on Syria but its not white racists rather cool headed business.

 

Yes its time.

Time that truth was spoken.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

You can already tell that the response to this in terms of the bigger picture will be precisely nil.

 

Threat level will be dropped before long. Then we'll move onto the next one.

[hughesie27]

You can already tell that the response to this in terms of the bigger picture will be precisely nil.

 

Threat level will be dropped before long. Then we'll move onto the next one.

You seem really annoyed that they raised the threat level. Strange.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

You seem really annoyed that they raised the threat level. Strange.

 

It's not strange. It's a move that will achieve very litte and has been employed after the horse bolted. Designed to make the intelligence services look on the ball when this guy evidently ran rings around them

[Bridge of Djoum]

It's not strange. It's a move that will achieve very litte and has been employed after the horse bolted. Designed to make the intelligence services look on the ball when this guy evidently ran rings around them

What would your response be?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Rocco_Jambo]

It's not strange. It's a move that will achieve very litte and has been employed after the horse bolted. Designed to make the intelligence services look on the ball when this guy evidently ran rings around them

How do you know it will change very little? If an attack is considered imminent then having the security services and police placed on a higher level of alert and having a higher presence in and around potential targets seems an awfully good idea.

[Eric Shin]

It's not strange. It's a move that will achieve very litte and has been employed after the horse bolted. Designed to make the intelligence services look on the ball when this guy evidently ran rings around them

 

Fair enough , he was known to the police along with others , but how can the police keep tabs on folk 24/ 7    its impossible

[Cade]

The guy was known to the security services. At least it wasn't a total random.

 

They need to be given more resources and staff in order to gather evidence on known persons and secure convictions before they get the chance to commit atrocities.

 

We shouldn't be reducing numbers of police and intelligence agents in this current climate. It's dangerous.

 

Simply locking people up because of a possible suspicion of intent is never the answer. They'll just end up being released due to lack of evidence and rewarded massive sums for wrongful imprisonment.

The Rule of Law must be followed, and that means increasing spending on police and intelligence.

[markphmfc]

In fairness the Koran(and bible) was written around 2000 years ago during a time where it was considered normal to sack a city and rape, kill or enslave everyone inside and where pedastry - particularly in Greece or Rome was actively encouraged. It's probably not fair to hold its words to modern levels of morality.

 

The only difference is the vast majority of Christians have realised a lot of their book is nonsense and a larger number of Muslims haven't.

yep or rather other cultures have become more civilised over the years and no right fae wrong.

[markphmfc]

You seem really annoyed that they raised the threat level. Strange.

it didnae come over that way tae me. Came over as he was sayin little can be done and hes right.

[jack D and coke]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=LfrOZj6EBRI

 

Channel 4 appear to have made another ****** up after the Westminster misidentification.

 

At first it seems the woman in bin bag is a troll cos on the front you can see how the word love is spelled with weapons but then Kristin goes to interview her and she is spouting the same predictable and nauseous 'Muslims are the real victims of a Muslim suicide bomber bombing non believers' as the tall asshat before her. Not sure if this is sick and inappropriate satire but listening to her I can only think she is the real deal and knowing exactly what she is doing.

What a foul bunch they interviewed there you can tell there's not an shred of sympathy from them. Women and bairns in bits and that weirdo in the mask worries about muslims maybe getting a dirty look.

[Rudy T]

The guy was known to the security services. At least it wasn't a total random.

 

They need to be given more resources and staff in order to gather evidence on known persons and secure convictions before they get the chance to commit atrocities.

 

We shouldn't be reducing numbers of police and intelligence agents in this current climate. It's dangerous.

 

Simply locking people up because of a possible suspicion of intent is never the answer. They'll just end up being released due to lack of evidence and rewarded massive sums for wrongful imprisonment.

 

The Rule of Law must be followed, and that means increasing spending on police and intelligence.

In the past I'd agree, the last one in London was a known to the police but more appeared to be a bit of a head case and a lone wolf...not much they can do with the resources available.

 

However, Manchester. This guy had been to Syria and returned. Been to Dusseldorf which by all accounts holds a pocket of known extremists. Had close links to Libya. His own community leaders had tried to alert the authorities. A quick Google threw up all sorts of tell tale signs. He's obtained a bomb which appears to have been the work of a highly skilled bomb maker and also appears to be part of a cell where other individuals are known to police both in this country and Germany.

 

I dread to think what the profile is for an individual who is higher risk than this sick ****er.

[Francis Albert]

The guy was known to the security services. At least it wasn't a total random.

 

They need to be given more resources and staff in order to gather evidence on known persons and secure convictions before they get the chance to commit atrocities.

 

We shouldn't be reducing numbers of police and intelligence agents in this current climate. It's dangerous.

 

Simply locking people up because of a possible suspicion of intent is never the answer. They'll just end up being released due to lack of evidence and rewarded massive sums for wrongful imprisonment.

 

The Rule of Law must be followed, and that means increasing spending on police and intelligence.

While reducing resources was crazy I do struggle with the idea it takes 20 people to monitor one person. I think the equation is then that the security services can only properly monitor 50 people at a time.

 

In the days long before sophisticated surveillance equipment and the huge resources of GCHQ you could hire a private detective at modest cost to monitor your spouse to establish whether and if so prove he or she was cheating on you.

 

I know we are talking about something far more complex but a continuous total of over six people (assuming they work a 3 shift system) to monitor one person 24 hours a day?

 

Also I agree locking innocent people isn't the answer but the security services must have known about his trips abroad. There is no suggestion he travelled under a false passport - in fact he seems to have left pretty clear trails. Was he questioned on re-entry?

 

Blaming the Americans for releasing evidence seems a lot like closing the stable door and deflection.

[AlimOzturk]

Just recently finished a book called Solider Spy which is about a retired secret service and Mi5 officer. Also, an ex army veteran who worked under the guidance of the MI5.

 

Some of the stuff he said was harrowing and the work these guys do is Incredible. Basically, if it wasn't for these people the Russians, Chinese and any other terror group would be running this country.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

 the security services must have known about his trips abroad. There is no suggestion he travelled under a false passport

 

When you leave or enter the UK via an airport, Border Security scan your passport, the system logs the time, date and place of your leaving or arrival, from there it's a simple task of matching up which flight you took and to where, so yes the security services should have been abundantly aware where he was going to, for how long and when he came back.

 

He slipped through the net, the question is how many more are also slipping through the net, because I seriously doubt that he was a one off.

[Cade]

If only our glorious PM hadn't gutted the border staff and police when she was home secretary, eh?