Indy Ref Part Deux

[Trapper John McIntyre]

Rant can't I question what you said without being all raging no? The number of folk that can't stand actually debating on a messageboard is mad.

 

You posted a counter argument, I questioned why it maybe wasn't plausible, you countered with a point that contradicted your first, I pointed this out, you've took the hump.

 

The difference between Germany and the UK can't be down to the EU (your initial point) as they are both in it. If the difference is employment law (your second point), there is nothing stopping the UK copying Germany right now, while in the EU. They are making a choice not to. I don't know why you are taking it personally or thinking I'm "ranting", I'm simply discussing the logic with you.

 

You're having a 'mare, kid.    

[The Tartan Trump]

Right. So you don't know what you are talking about. Glad to get that cleared up.

 

Your rant is completely misdirected in the first place as it was Tartan Trump who posted a graph witb no analysis to make a point he couldn't justify. I merely posted a plausible counter argument.

Eh ?

 

I mentioned that a possible iScotland is often, in a negative way, compared to Greece. The graph shows the UK performing similar to Greece in terms of negative wage growth. Therefore, my 'point' was entirely justified. I didn't feel it needed a couple of paragraphs to explain it ....

 

Perhaps that is a vindication of Brexit? The current situation is a race to the bottom where employers can keep wages down by hiring foreigners rather than pay the fair wage to indigenous workers.

 

Hooray for Brexit ! I've already answered to this post, but I'd like to add, Why aren't the other EU countries performing as badly considering that they're playing by the same rules ?

 

You posted a counter argument, I questioned why it maybe wasn't plausible, you countered with a point that contradicted your first

 

The difference between Germany and the UK can't be down to the EU (your initial point) as they are both in it.

 

Alphonse kens.

[Space Mackerel]

Up, up and away!

 

[The Tartan Trump]

Is that a definite, or an assumption?

 

It is an assumption based on the oft repeated mantras of 'Brexit means Brexit' and 'taking back control'. Regaining 'sovereignty' was probably only behind immigration as the main argument put forward by the leave campaign, and let's just say that the Tories don't really have the best record when it comes to this sort of thing.

 

I've linked a couple of articles below that could perhaps give us some indication of how the Tories and Labour will be approaching this sort of thing post Brexit.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/dwp-gig-economy-damian-green-speech-holiday-minimum-wage-sick-pay-hours-a7421071.html

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/new-bill-to-guarantee-workers-rights-after-brexit-a7524356.html

 

http://labourlist.org/2017/01/tories-talk-out-onns-bill-to-protect-workers-rights-after-brexit/

 

I find it a bit worrying.

[The Tartan Trump]

Up, up and away!

 

 

Trapper does love a poll tbf.

[AlphonseCapone]

hypocrisy

h??p?kr?si/

noun

noun: hypocrisy; plural noun: hypocrisies

the practice of claiming to have higher standards or more noble beliefs than is the case.

"his target was the hypocrisy of suburban life"

synonyms: sanctimoniousness, sanctimony, pietism, piousness, affected piety, affected superiority, false virtue, cant, humbug, pretence, posturing, speciousness, empty talk; insincerity, falseness, falsity, deceptiveness, deceit, deceitfulness, deception, dishonesty, dissembling, dissimulation, duplicity, imposture, two-facedness, double-dealing; informalphoneyness; rarePharisaism, Tartufferie

"plain speaking was important to him?he hated hypocrisy"

antonyms: honesty, sincerity

Sound.

[AlphonseCapone]

You're having a 'mare, kid.

Feel free to explain why, da.

[Space Mackerel]

Trapper does love a poll tbf.

54% do NOT want Indyref2

[Trapper John McIntyre]

54% do NOT want Indyref2

 

Yes, ain't the Scottish people strange, eh?

[Space Mackerel]

Yes, ain't the Scottish people strange, eh?

Not really, I think the biased Yoon media is the problem with its skewed way it reports facts and polls.

[Trapper John McIntyre]

Not really, I think the biased Yoon media is the problem with its skewed way it reports facts and polls.

 

Not really. You just don't have an explanation as to why so many people continue to vote SNP but won't vote for Independence.

 

Which says all you need to know about the opposition up here (and the electorate).

 

And the attractions of Independence.

[Space Mackerel]

Not really. You just don't have an explanation as to why so many people continue to vote SNP but won't vote for Independence.

 

Which says all you need to know about the opposition up here (and the electorate).

 

And the attractions of Independence.

Maybe you have an explanation why TM is jetting up here tomorrow to beg NS not to go ahead with the referendum?

[Trapper John McIntyre]

Maybe you have an explanation why TM is jetting up here tomorrow to beg NS not to go ahead with the referendum?

Its the other way around, actually.

 

Nippy is begging Theresa to say No and get her out of the hole Eck has dug for her.

[Space Mackerel]

Its the other way around, actually.

 

Nippy is begging Theresa to say No and get her out of the hole Eck has dug for her.

[frankblack]

 

Its the other way around, actually.

 

Nippy is begging Theresa to say No and get her out of the hole Eck has dug for her.

Oh Dear.

 

That headline is tragic. Its the SNP who need a miracle to save face.

[Space Mackerel]

Oh Dear.

 

That headline is tragic. Its the SNP who need a miracle to save face.

With the vote to hold another referendum on Tuesday due to be passed and Article 50 to be delivered to the EU on Thursday, do you think TM's hand in any future talks with EU officials has been strengthened or weakened?

Get the bigger picture?

[luckydug]

Not really. You just don't have an explanation as to why so many people continue to vote SNP but won't vote for Independence.

 

Which says all you need to know about the opposition up here (and the electorate).

 

And the attractions of Independence.

 

Let me get this right. You are saying the Scottish people are continuing to vote SNP despite not wanting Independence ?

The only conclusion to draw from that is that people think the SNP are doing a great job .

So much for the incompetent in government argument. Probably just a minority of unionist loudmouths pushing that argument then.

[frankblack]

With the vote to hold another referendum on Tuesday due to be passed and Article 50 to be delivered to the EU on Thursday, do you think TM's hand in any future talks with EU officials has been strengthened or weakened?

Get the bigger picture?

 

My main comment was about posting a photo from a comic.

 

TM has already told the SNP that there won't be a referendum until after Brexit as they can't fight two major battles on different fronts.  I don't think the SNP are doing anything other than destabalising the Scottish economy with referendums every couple of years.

[frankblack]

Let me get this right. You are saying the Scottish people are continuing to vote SNP despite not wanting Independence ?

The only conclusion to draw from that is that people think the SNP are doing a great job .

So much for the incompetent in government argument. Probably just a minority of unionist loudmouths pushing that argument then.

 

Scotland had a weak choice between a chaotic Labour Party or the SNP up here.  The SNP had done OK running local affairs up to the last referendum but have been too distracted by Independence campaigns and travelling round Europe for Brexit to focus on what they were elected to do - like run services such as the NHS and Schools.

 

Since the last Scottish Parliament Election the SNP have been a shambles and negligent in running the government.

[reaths17]

Let me get this right. You are saying the Scottish people are continuing to vote SNP despite not wanting Independence ?

The only conclusion to draw from that is that people think the SNP are doing a great job .

So much for the incompetent in government argument. Probably just a minority of unionist loudmouths pushing that argument then.

no you've got it wrong.

 

Scotlands economy is performing worse than the rest of the UK.

 

labour are a shambles and Scotland have always been anti tory.

[luckydug]

Scotland had a weak choice between a chaotic Labour Party or the SNP up here. The SNP had done OK running local affairs up to the last referendum but have been too distracted by Independence campaigns and travelling round Europe for Brexit to focus on what they were elected to do - like run services such as the NHS and Schools.

 

Since the last Scottish Parliament Election the SNP have been a shambles and negligent in running the government.

 

The Scottish voters don't appear to share your views.

[luckydug]

no you've got it wrong.

 

Scotlands economy is performing worse than the rest of the UK.

 

labour are a shambles and Scotland have always been anti tory.

 

At the moment Scotland us just another region in the UK.

You can't make those kind of judgements unless Scotland was an Independent country.

If Scotland is under performing it's because she is tied to the UK.

[frankblack]

At the moment Scotland us just another region in the UK.

You can't make those kind of judgements unless Scotland was an Independent country.

If Scotland is under performing it's because she is tied to the UK.

 

I think you will find that it will be worse once decoupled - Oil, Financial Sector, and other service industries are the major industries of the economy.

 

As posted a few pages back, the ratings industries such as Moodys have stated our credit rating would be classed as 'junk' and jobs would be at risk:

http://www.express.co.uk/finance/city/781404/Moodys-Scotland-JUNK-credit-rating-independence-referendum

 

I would be seriously concerned by the comments here.  BTW there are direct quotes in there before people criticise a link to the Express site.  I'm sure your beloved comic, The National, will tell you differently of course.

[luckydug]

I think you will find that it will be worse once decoupled - Oil, Financial Sector, and other service industries are the major industries of the economy.

 

As posted a few pages back, the ratings industries such as Moodys have stated our credit rating would be classed as 'junk' and jobs would be at risk:

http://www.express.co.uk/finance/city/781404/Moodys-Scotland-JUNK-credit-rating-independence-referendum

 

I would be seriously concerned by the comments here. BTW there are direct quotes in there before people criticise a link to the Express site. I'm sure your beloved comic, The National, will tell you differently of course.

 

All these different links that people post all have their own axe to grind.

Nationalists could just as easy post links that suit their agenda.

The fact is Scotland is still part of the UK so all your 'facts' should be read in that context.

[reaths17]

At the moment Scotland us just another region in the UK.

You can't make those kind of judgements unless Scotland was an Independent country.

If Scotland is under performing it's because she is tied to the UK.

I made no judgements what so ever, my comments were facts.

 

if we never had holyrood we would not be a region and would be performing the same as the UK.

 

sturgeon has powers that can change things, few of which she's using and even worse sitting on her hands, just to make things appear worse in Scotland to further her blaming Westminster tactic.

[frankblack]

All these different links that people post all have their own axe to grind.

Nationalists could just as easy post links that suit their agenda.

The fact is Scotland is still part of the UK so all your 'facts' should be read in that context.

 

You seem to have your head stuck in the sand and are ignoring anything you don't want to hear.

 

So, you think Moodys have an axe to grind here?  That is a good one.

[The Don]

TM on her way up to slap wee nippy down again

 

Be prepared for plenty teeth gnashing and foaming from the brainwashed knuckledraggers.

 

 

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[Boris]

TM on her way up to slap wee nippy down again

 

Be prepared for plenty teeth gnashing and foaming from the brainwashed knuckledraggers.

 

 

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[Sidsnot]

And that person is Alex Salmond. I have no doubt he is pulling Sturgeon's strings and orchestrating all this. And he still finds time to attend McGuiness's funeral. What a guy.

Your post is rank,away back to FF.

[Sidsnot]

TM on her way up to slap wee nippy down again

Be prepared for plenty teeth gnashing and foaming from the brainwashed knuckledraggers.

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May will leave with her 'tail' between her legs,guaranteed.

[Unknown user]

I think you will find that it will be worse once decoupled - Oil, Financial Sector, and other service industries are the major industries of the economy.

 

As posted a few pages back, the ratings industries such as Moodys have stated our credit rating would be classed as 'junk' and jobs would be at risk:

http://www.express.co.uk/finance/city/781404/Moodys-Scotland-JUNK-credit-rating-independence-referendum

 

I would be seriously concerned by the comments here. BTW there are direct quotes in there before people criticise a link to the Express site. I'm sure your beloved comic, The National, will tell you differently of course.

Funny, I clicked the link you provided, and yeah, I see the slant that the Express put on it, but here's the actual quote from Colin Ellis, Moodys chief credit officer for Europe;

?In 2014 we said that, even if you took an optimistic view on the division of oil revenues when it was $100 a barrel, Scotland would inherit a starting fiscal position that was no better than the UK?s.?

 

?The big thing that?s changed is oil prices are now around $55.

 

"Nobody can predict oil prices but even if you take an optimistic view the fiscal position for Scotland has clearly worsened.

 

?That means you would be starting from a high fiscal imbalance that the Scottish government would immediately need to address.

 

"You would need to raise taxes or cut spending. If not, that would put the normal downward pressures on ratings.?

Where does it say anything about our credit rating being classed as junk or otherwise (apart from the editorial agenda of that rag of a paper)?

[Adam Murray]

Your post is rank,away back to FF.

 

But he is a confirmed Hearts supporter, you on the other hand are a supporter from that vile institution from the east end of Glasgow, and your republicanism and detesting of all things British reeks all over this forum.

[Pans Jambo]

Funny, I clicked the link you provided, and yeah, I see the slant that the Express put on it, but here's the actual quote from Colin Ellis, Moodys chief credit officer for Europe;

 

Where does it say anything about our credit rating being classed as junk or otherwise (apart from the editorial agenda of that rag of a paper)?

Also, should we gain independence from the rUK, what will the rUK's credit rating be seeing as they will be out of the EU, have lost almost 10% of its population (& it's turnover), a third of its land mass and 90% of its oil and gas revenues? It's already been downgraded from AAA.

 

Sinking ship. 

[Unknown user]

But he is a confirmed Hearts supporter, you on the other hand are a supporter from that vile institution from the east end of Glasgow, and your republicanism and detesting of all things British reeks all over this forum.

Not really relevant in the shed what team he sports supports imo

[Seymour M Hersh]

Your post is rank,away back to FF.

 

Fear not my sellik friend I despise all things connected with that club and it's vile support. So I think I'll stick where I am on the forum of the team I support. You however.........

[Adam Murray]

Not really relevant in the shed what team he sports supports imo

 

Relevant when he's trying to call out fellow Hearts supporters as blue noses........imo

[frankblack]

Also, should we gain independence from the rUK, what will the rUK's credit rating be seeing as they will be out of the EU, have lost almost 10% of its population (& it's turnover), a third of its land mass and 90% of its oil and gas revenues? It's already been downgraded from AAA.

 

Sinking ship. 

 

Lets reverse your statement.

 

What credit rating will Scotland have after they have left the EU, left the UK, have a massive deficit with Oil and Gas, and lost tariff free access to the UK markets?

[SwindonJambo]

Also, should we gain independence from the rUK, what will the rUK's credit rating be seeing as they will be out of the EU, have lost almost 10% of its population (& it's turnover), a third of its land mass and 90% of its oil and gas revenues? It's already been downgraded from AAA.

 

Sinking ship.

 

It would also lose about 30% of its PSBR and 8% of its sovereign debt. Oil and Gas revenues are currently negligible.

[Boris]

Lets reverse your statement.

 

What credit rating will Scotland have after they have left the EU, left the UK, have a massive deficit with Oil and Gas, and lost tariff free access to the UK markets?

 

That would depend on their status with the single market I suppose.  Or it would at least be a factor.

[Don Dan]

Possible find of oil of the coast of Shetland announced the day prior to an indy2 vote!! Call me cynical but is this announcement and its timing trying to influence the vote?

[The Don]

Possible find of oil of the coast of Shetland announced the day prior to an indy2 vote!! Call me cynical but is this announcement and its timing trying to influence the vote?

Shameful trying to suggest that Scotlands glorious leader and her minions would ever indulge in such under hand tactics in trying to deceive the nation on oil values or future revenues.

 

 

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[Boris]

Shameful trying to suggest that Scotlands glorious leader and her minions would ever indulge in such under hand tactics in trying to deceive the nation on oil values or future revenues.

 

 

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Seems to have come from the company itself, so not sure what the Scottish Govt could do about it?

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-39406131

[The Don]

Seems to have come from the company itself, so not sure what the Scottish Govt could do about it?

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-39406131

Our previous leaders fictitious amounts apparently came direct from companies and "experts" as well.

 

So You'll forgive me and the rest of those who are not brainwashed if we don't all jump up and down at this latest coincidently timed announcement of apparent new oil riches.

 

 

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[Scallywag]

Possible find of oil of the coast of Shetland announced the day prior to an indy2 vote!! Call me cynical but is this announcement and its timing trying to influence the vote

I think you will find this discovery was made just before the 2014 Indy Ref. David Cameron made a secretive trip up to Shetland and the whole thing was more or less kept out of the national headlines. Further tests since then have just confirmed the extent of the find.

 

There have been plenty of rumours so this really isn't a surprise.

[Pans Jambo]

Lets reverse your statement.

 

What credit rating will Scotland have after they have left the EU, left the UK, have a massive deficit with Oil and Gas, and lost tariff free access to the UK markets?

Answer a question with another question? You go first.

 

And by the way, the oil wont ne running out anytime soon regardless of unit cost:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-39406131?ocid=socialflow_facebook&ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbcnews&ns_source=facebook

[The Don]

I think you will find this discovery was made just before the 2014 Indy Ref. David Cameron made a secretive trip up to Shetland and the whole thing was more or less kept out of the national headlines. Further tests since then have just confirmed the extent of the find.

 

There have been plenty of rumours so this really isn't a surprise.

Correct it was mentioned during the last Indy ref debates. I remember a few teeth gnashers getting all excited about it at the time. It was also rubbished by I think Shell or BP as not worth the cost of investment.

 

I might be getting mixed up with another find but I'm sure there are possible claims from Norway regarding some of the area the field covers so It's not as straight forward as it's made out to be.

 

 

 

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[Scallywag]

This find is to the West of Shetland so I don't think there would be any complications with Norway.

[The Don]

This find is to the West of Shetland so I don't think there would be any complications with Norway.

:2thumbs:

 

Must have been another field.

 

 

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[argyjambo]

Maybe there is a huge oilfield there, the issue is, will it be profitable to bring to the surface & refine it? No point in saying its a great find if it cant be profitably & taxable.

[XB52]

Maybe there is a huge oilfield there, the issue is, will it be profitable to bring to the surface & refine it? No point in saying its a great find if it cant be profitably & taxable.

the cost of getting this il is seemingly a lot less due to the type of deposit. Seen reports of $40 a barrel being their low point for profit, $50 a barrel and they are making loads. Of course that all depends on the amount of oil matching their estimates.