2NaFish Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 Sitting together is probably bottom of the list of reasons to get a new stadium/stand... The top reasons are the age of the old stand, that fact that we're sold out every week and growing as a club on and off the park in a city that is also projected to grow massively over the next few years. As I said, it's one of a number of things people will consider when making a decision on ST purchase and if someone is able to sit with a mate it might just sway their decision. They already can. If they can't figure that out, they wouldn't be able to fill in the form to actually purchase a ticket, so there's no loss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XB52 Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 Lets spend millions on a bigger stadium just so some precious wee souls can sit together I'm all for getting new fans through the door but some of the guff being put forward as serious proposals Just so there's no doubt. I think 23k stadium would be more than enough. If we did consider larger then I would hope that it would be largely taken up with safe standing. so you do your daft wee smileys about spending millions on a bigger stadium and then say you 23,000 is what you want. I take it you know someone who will build us over 5,000 seats for nothing??? otherwise you want us to spend millions on a bigger stadium; meaning new fans could sit with their mates, Do you ever argue with yourself in the mirror Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hueyview Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 I enjoy being a walkup, been doing so since the seventies. Also go to some Easter road games, I have read the last 20/30 mails. it is good to see the familiar faces come Saturday. hopefully non season ticket holders are still made welcome at the football......lets make it a grand season.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudolf's Mate Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 so you do your daft wee smileys about spending millions on a bigger stadium and then say you 23,000 is what you want. I take it you know someone who will build us over 5,000 seats for nothing??? otherwise you want us to spend millions on a bigger stadium; meaning new fans could sit with their mates, Do you ever argue with yourself in the mirror If 'daft we smileys' offend thee then you're definitely in the wrong place. The debate shifted to size of stadium due to people saying it wasn't always possible for friends to sit together. The thread started to cover other aspects (Stadium update) and my knowing my response would have brought other questions I attempted to answer in advance. I don't think we should be looking at 25k+ when it comes to any kind of renovations/new main stand. I certainly don't think that we should account for another 5k+ on the basis that some mates might want to sit together. I agree that there will be a chunk who would benefit from this but I'd be astounded if it resulted in another 100 new fans attending. All you might see is a shift in people moving seat. For that case a smiley wasn't really appropriate and was more deserving of this Also I believe having more set aside for standing would counter any low attendances. If it could be worked that way then having less people turn up in standing compared to seats would look better than having thousands of empty seats. Anyway I'm off out the door and I'm sorry if I've offended you.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zibi Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 Dumpster confirms the Wee Team are yet to reach 7k. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BelgeJambo Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 Question for the Dot Counters Does counting season ticket dots classify as your pre-season training???? If it does surely we should expect triple and quadruple updates per day in line with the first team squad ethos!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Australis Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 Dumpster confirms the Wee Team are yet to reach 7k. Did Hayley Cropper Dempster mention how the wee teams share issue was doing? Very quiet so far on that front. Sir Tom wants his cash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clerry Jambo Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 Question for the Dot Counters Does counting season ticket dots classify as your pre-season training???? If it does surely we should expect triple and quadruple updates per day in line with the first team squad ethos!!! Nope, but the saddos who come on and have a go at the saddest thread on KB, need to contribute but I doubt that as they have nothing in their locker!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hueyview Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 Dumpster confirms the Wee Team are yet to reach 7k.bit cruel mate....folk in the know are trying to have a Xmas/New year game........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hueyview Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 bit cruel mate....folk in the know are trying to have a Xmas/New year game........... [/quotderby game.....e] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clerry Jambo Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 I enjoy fitba banter and the rest, but as we like a crack at our "supposed rivals", I mean really.......... greenginger @hibs.net private member Join Date Dec 2008 Location LEITH NO MORE Posts 3,720 Originally Posted by WellingtonHibby Half as many as the big team... ? The Yams are selling junior seasons for ? 50. An adult buying a season can purchase two junior tickets for a total of ? 100.I'm sure there will be a lot of scarf twirlers buying tickets for their sprogs to enhance the numbers and satisfy their big-team delusion.What matters is the cash generated .A quick scan through the last 12 years of our respective accounts shows Hibs gross turnover at ?87.6 million compared to theirs at ?96.5 million. ( player sales excluded )They are only 10% ahead of us despite the crazy spending of Romanov. Big Team my A *** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 I enjoy fitba banter and the rest, but as we like a crack at our "supposed rivals", I mean really.......... greenginger@hibs.net private member Join Date Dec 2008 Location LEITH NO MORE Posts 3,720 Originally Posted by WellingtonHibby Half as many as the big team... ? The Yams are selling junior seasons for ? 50. An adult buying a season can purchase two junior tickets for a total of ? 100. I'm sure there will be a lot of scarf twirlers buying tickets for their sprogs to enhance the numbers and satisfy their big-team delusion. What matters is the cash generated . A quick scan through the last 12 years of our respective accounts shows Hibs gross turnover at ?87.6 million compared to theirs at ?96.5 million. ( player sales excluded ) They are only 10% ahead of us despite the crazy spending of Romanov. Big Team my A *** what matters is now albeit boy is making a fairly reasonable point his club are getting smaller and Hearts are getting bigger. We are pretty much twice as big now. did they ever get a sponsor for their stand? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watt-Zeefuik Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 I enjoy fitba banter and the rest, but as we like a crack at our "supposed rivals", I mean really.......... greenginger @hibs.net private member Join Date Dec 2008 Location LEITH NO MORE Posts 3,720 Originally Posted by WellingtonHibby Half as many as the big team... ? The Yams are selling junior seasons for ? 50. An adult buying a season can purchase two junior tickets for a total of ? 100. I'm sure there will be a lot of scarf twirlers buying tickets for their sprogs to enhance the numbers and satisfy their big-team delusion. What matters is the cash generated . A quick scan through the last 12 years of our respective accounts shows Hibs gross turnover at ?87.6 million compared to theirs at ?96.5 million. ( player sales excluded ) They are only 10% ahead of us despite the crazy spending of Romanov. Big Team my A *** After all, every time I read their revenue reports and see that we've brought in more than them I run around the house screaming, and have to have good cry if I see that total takings for them are higher than ours. Beating them at football is okay too, but what's really important is cash generated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown user Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 I enjoy fitba banter and the rest, but as we like a crack at our "supposed rivals", I mean really.......... greenginger@hibs.net private member Join Date Dec 2008 Location LEITH NO MORE Posts 3,720 Originally Posted by WellingtonHibby Half as many as the big team... ? The Yams are selling junior seasons for ? 50. An adult buying a season can purchase two junior tickets for a total of ? 100. I'm sure there will be a lot of scarf twirlers buying tickets for their sprogs to enhance the numbers and satisfy their big-team delusion. What matters is the cash generated . A quick scan through the last 12 years of our respective accounts shows Hibs gross turnover at ?87.6 million compared to theirs at ?96.5 million. ( player sales excluded ) They are only 10% ahead of us despite the crazy spending of Romanov. Big Team my A *** 10% bigger than your wee team greenginger, and we all know every percentage point hurts like another dry inch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paolo Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 what matters is now albeit boy is making a fairly reasonable point his club are getting smaller and Hearts are getting bigger. We are pretty much twice as big now. did they ever get a sponsor for their stand? Not season tickets, but whenever they have sold individual tickets cheap, or given them away for free, they have still struggled to make a 10,000 attendance, even when they included existing season ticket holders who did not bother turning up, in the number. Regardless, he seems to count them selling half as many season tickets, and having a smaller revenue than us, as a success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BelgeJambo Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 Nope, but the saddos who come on and have a go at the saddest thread on KB, need to contribute but I doubt that as they have nothing in their locker!! Keep up the good work Clerry your efforts are appreciated mate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jr ewing Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 Standing area solves the problem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FarmerTweedy Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 More capacity doesn't mean more revenue. More people attending means more revenue. There's no good reason to believe we'd be getting significantly higher attendances Yours is a castle built in the sky.. I don't have a castle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2NaFish Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 I don't have a castle. It's a phrase that's been in common usage for nearly one thousand years. I'd say you were playing dumb, but you're not playing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FarmerTweedy Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 It's a phrase that's been in common usage for nearly one thousand years. I'd say you were playing dumb, but you're not playing. Thanks for your valuable contribution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2NaFish Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 Thanks for your valuable contribution. From the man who wrote 'I don't have a castle'. You're doing a good job of making the boy who wants a 30k stadium so he can sit with his pals look clever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FarmerTweedy Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 From the man who wrote 'I don't have a castle'. You're doing a good job of making the boy who wants a 30k stadium so he can sit with his pals look clever. Except nobody wants a 30k stadium so they can sit with their pals. Here's an idea, why don't you try actually posting something that isn't just an attempt to wind folk up/start an argument for once? You might find you actually prefer it to the garbage you do post! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2NaFish Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 Except nobody wants a 30k stadium so they can sit with their pals. Here's an idea, why don't you try actually posting something that isn't just an attempt to wind folk up/start an argument for once? You might find you actually prefer it to the garbage you do post! I made a serious point and you replied 'i dont own a castle' So tell me more about how I need to stop winding folk up and posting garbage. Its always the worst posters that cry troll when they're shown up. Without fail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smiler Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 I made a serious point and you replied 'i dont own a castle' So tell me more about how I need to stop winding folk up and posting garbage. Its always the worst posters that cry troll when they're shown up. Without fail. You have to be, without fail, the nippiest possible on here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TNCASTLE Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 What's interesting about this thread is the digression of the subject matter. It must be a record even for this forum! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FarmerTweedy Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 You have to be, without fail, the nippiest possible on here. The board is littered with threads where he's made a post that clearly implies something without quite explicitly saying it, then sat back waiting for someone else to post a reply, then jumped on them saying 'ah, but I didn't actually say that, did I?' before trying to kick off a full-on argument. It's tiresome in the extreme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FarmerTweedy Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 What's interesting about this thread is the digression of the subject matter. It must be a record even for this forum! Indeed. I wonder what the record actually is for the number of digressions on a thread. I can't be bothered counting the number there have been on this one, or indeed any other, but if anyone's bored of dot-counting, they could maybe do a digression count! See what you've done? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smiler Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 The board is littered with threads where he's made a post that clearly implies something without quite explicitly saying it, then sat back waiting for someone else to post a reply, then jumped on them saying 'ah, but I didn't actually say that, did I?' before trying to kick off a full-on argument. It's tiresome in the extreme. He needs to get out there and find a woman, or a man I suppose, whatever floats his boat. You never know though, maybe he's actually a right hoot in real life. Doubt it likes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FarmerTweedy Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 20k max for me with much more hospitality available. That would maximise weekly revenue and minimise building costs. Could almost certainly do it on the current Main Stand/shop/car park footprint. It wouldn't do either! More capacity would mean higher revenue, less capacity would mean lower building costs! To clarify my reply to soonbe110's post for the hard of thinking, a capacity of around 22k would almost certainly bring in more revenue than 20k, as there will certainly be some games in the future where we could sell those extra 2000 tickets, which is why I said 20k won't maximise revenue. Whether the extra revenue brought in would justify the extra build/maintenance cost is a question none of us on jkb are likely to be able to answer with any certainty, and in fact, even the board are unlikely to be able to do that, it's all a question of projecting realistic best/worst/likeliest case scenarios and making a judgement call. My view is that we have real potential to be able to attract big enough crowds often enough in the short to medium term to justify a 22k capacity, although I recognise soonbe's view of 20k as sufficient as being perfectly valid. I also think that as Edinburgh grows as a city, we can realistically expect our attendances to grow at a similar, or even slightly higher rate, as new residents are just as likely as current ones to want to go to football matches, and we're highly likely to be the most attractive draw in the capital, which is why, as I've said already, I think it's important that we also ensure we have scope to be able to increase capacity further in the future if attendances and demand justify it. No imaginary castles here, airborne, swampbound or otherwise, despite what some idiots would like to have people think! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paolo Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 Standing area solves the problem A standing area will make no difference to anything. Safe standing means you wil have your own 'spot'. It is effectively the same as a seat, but without the bit for your arse. A total waste of time. You will have same capacity as you would of it was all seated. The only benefit would be, is that there are no parts for Celtic fans to rip out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
And he's not praying Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 A standing area will make no difference to anything. Safe standing means you wil have your own 'spot'. It is effectively the same as a seat, but without the bit for your arse. A total waste of time. You will have same capacity as you would of it was all seated. The only benefit would be, is that there are no parts for Celtic fans to rip out. I thought it was 1.5 safe standing spots to 1 seat? If true, it wouldn't make a huge difference but a slight increase nonetheless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudolf's Mate Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 A standing area will make no difference to anything. Safe standing means you wil have your own 'spot'. It is effectively the same as a seat, but without the bit for your arse. A total waste of time. You will have same capacity as you would of it was all seated. The only benefit would be, is that there are no parts for Celtic fans to rip out. Surely if you have an area that has say 2k seats you'd be able to adapt it for safe standing and still fit a lot more bodies in there? Just seen Frankly's response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jr ewing Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 A standing area will make no why?difference to anything. Safe standing means you wil have your own 'spot'. It is effectively the same as a seat, but without the bit for your arse. A total waste of time. You will have same capacity as you would of it was all seated. The only benefit would be, is that there are no parts for Celtic fans to rip out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jr ewing Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 A standing area will make no why?difference to anything. Safe standing means you wil have your own 'spot'. It is effectively the same as a seat, but without the bit for your arse. A total waste of time. You will have same capacity as you would of it was all seated. The only benefit would be, is that there are no parts for Celtic fans to rip out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2NaFish Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 The board is littered with threads where he's made a post that clearly implies something without quite explicitly saying it, then sat back waiting for someone else to post a reply, then jumped on them saying 'ah, but I didn't actually say that, did I?' before trying to kick off a full-on argument. It's tiresome in the extreme. Once again, i made a reasonable point. You replied by saying, "I don't own a castle". Tell me again about how i'm the one who's trolling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Z Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 Once again, i made a reasonable point. Arguably. The problem is, you're abrasive. So it's the approach more than the content, you know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roscogt1 Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 Arguably. The problem is, you're abrasive. So it's the approach more than the content, you know? Now now ladies... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2NaFish Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 Arguably. The problem is, you're abrasive. So it's the approach more than the content, you know? That's fair. I can be abrasive; others can look for it where it doesnt exist though. You only have to look above to see tweedy saying he imagines that i'm saying things to annoy people. I never say them, but he thinks i mean something else, so he chooses to get wound up. There's no evidence for anything he says. There was nothing particularly abrasive about the point i made earlier before tweedy starting jabbering on about castles, dishing out insults and telling me that i'm the one who's trolling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watt-Zeefuik Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 That's fair. I can be abrasive; others can look for it where it doesnt exist though. You only have to look above to see tweedy saying he imagines that i'm saying things to annoy people. I never say them, but he thinks i mean something else, so he chooses to get wound up. There's no evidence for anything he says. There was nothing particularly abrasive about the point i made earlier before tweedy starting jabbering on about castles, dishing out insults and telling me that i'm the one who's trolling. I haven't joined in much here because there was a request to keep stadium talk out of this thread, but there's pages and pages of poring over historical numbers and trends and population ratios and numbers of sellouts (by me but also by many others), none of which you've addressed with your "castle in the sky" comment or elsewhere. As to your tone, I don't think you mean to be abrasive or to troll, but you do have a tendency to trade in minutiae and hair-splitting when an argument starts to not go you way. You use the, "you're just making stuff up now" tack a lot (ignoring the fact that folk on your "side" of this particular argument are also arguing against strawmen points that nobody made). It's as if you decide to suddenly apply the standards of strict formal logic to banter in order to win an argument. It can be tedious and degrade a decent conversation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2NaFish Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 I haven't joined in much here because there was a request to keep stadium talk out of this thread, but there's pages and pages of poring over historical numbers and trends and population ratios and numbers of sellouts (by me but also by many others), none of which you've addressed with your "castle in the sky" comment or elsewhere. As to your tone, I don't think you mean to be abrasive or to troll, but you do have a tendency to trade in minutiae and hair-splitting when an argument starts to not go you way. You use the, "you're just making stuff up now" tack a lot (ignoring the fact that folk on your "side" of this particular argument are also arguing against strawmen points that nobody made). It's as if you decide to suddenly apply the standards of strict formal logic to banter in order to win an argument. It can be tedious and degrade a decent conversation. People make stuff up, if they stopped doing it, i'd stop saying it. Tweedy admits earlier up he imagines i'm saying stuff i'm not. Once again; i didnt degrade the conversation. I made a legitimate and non-abrasive point; the very fact that you feel the need to 'step in' when I haven't done anything is pretty indicative of what i'm saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott herbertson Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 Wheatfield - 228 Gorgie - 64 Main - 223 Roseburn - 72 Total - 587 another 16 gone since yesterday, steady sales Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FarmerTweedy Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 I thought it was 1.5 safe standing spots to 1 seat? If true, it wouldn't make a huge difference but a slight increase nonetheless. No, it's a direct 1 to 1. There are actually still seats there, they're just locked into an upright position for domestic games, and folded down for European ties, where standing isn't allowed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FarmerTweedy Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 People make stuff up, if they stopped doing it, i'd stop saying it. Tweedy admits earlier up he imagines i'm saying stuff i'm not. Once again; i didnt degrade the conversation. I made a legitimate and non-abrasive point; the very fact that you feel the need to 'step in' when I haven't done anything is pretty indicative of what i'm saying. Soonbe110 said a 20k capacity would maximise revenue and minimise build cost. I said it wouldn't do either, which is correct*. You then posted utter garbage about castles in the sky, which was neither legitimate nor non-abrasive, as I'm sure you're well aware, despite your protestations to the contrary. * The build cost for a new stand that would increase capacity to only 18k would be lower than that for a stand that provides similar facilities but increase capacity to 20k. As for revenue, there are undoubtedly games where we could sell out a 22k capacity. We've sold well over that for European ties at Murrayfield in recent years, and there's been big demand for some other games at Tynecastle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FarmerTweedy Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 No, it's a direct 1 to 1. There are actually still seats there, they're just locked into an upright position for domestic games, and folded down for European ties, where standing isn't allowed. I should clarify that this is based on the system celtic are planning to install. I think (although I'm not sure) some german grounds have safe standing areas which don't have these seats, and if so, they might fit more people into the same space, although I think they have to remain closed for European ties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2NaFish Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 Soonbe110 said a 20k capacity would maximise revenue and minimise build cost. I said it wouldn't do either, which is correct*. It's correct, but you didn't say that, you said more capacity means higher revenue. If we only get 14k a higher capacity doesnt mean higher revenue. The thing you said isn't correct. If you wish to change what you say to "maximise" then we can assess that. It wouldn't do either! More capacity would mean higher revenue, less capacity would mean lower building costs! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfirst Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 Wheatfield - 228 Gorgie - 64 Main - 223 Roseburn - 72 Total - 587 another 16 gone since yesterday, steady sales I make it a few more. Wheatfield - 232 Gorgie - 64 Main - 230 Roseburn - 72 Total - 598 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 13,400 sold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott herbertson Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 I make it a few more. Wheatfield - 232 Gorgie - 64 Main - 230 Roseburn - 72 Total - 598 you're probably right - did it on a laptop at my mum's house - no spreadsheet so a lot of brain cell work Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FarmerTweedy Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 It's correct, but you didn't say that, you said more capacity means higher revenue. If we only get 14k a higher capacity doesnt mean higher revenue. The thing you said isn't correct. If you wish to change what you say to "maximise" then we can assess that. It's correct, but I didn't say it? Even though you've quoted the post where I did say it immediately below where you say I didn't say it? And you wonder why you get accused of trying to wind people up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watt-Zeefuik Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 It's correct, but you didn't say that, you said more capacity means higher revenue. If we only get 14k a higher capacity doesnt mean higher revenue. The thing you said isn't correct. If you wish to change what you say to "maximise" then we can assess that. To avoid the meta-discussion for a bit and try to get back to actual substance. I and many others have made the point that for any additional seat to be a net positive regarding club income, it needs to be sold at an average of about ?20/seat six times per season. a) Do you agree or disagree with that metric of revenue? If you disagree, why? Based on that threshold, what do you think is the number of seats we can reliably sell six times per season? I think that even at our current size, we could sell 22-23k seats six times a year any time but in our most dire years. If you don't disagree with a), I would be interested to know what you think the number for is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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