Celtic fans' full page ad in Sun Herald

[Fozzyonthefence]

Maybe because it is boring, tedious and incorrect?  Just a wild stab in the dark.....  

 

Try another thread then.

[Bowmans_Boot]

Try another thread then.

 

I have and they probably have, but you asked  

[trotter]

On the "Are they still Rangers?" debate I have been very consistent in saying that I believe they are and still view them as such, as with Middlesbrough, Napoli and others.  Had the worst happened to Hearts, I was also consistent in saying that I would have supported the new team and still seen them as Hearts.  For me, financial difficulties do not break a club in its entirety.

 

I think it is embarrassing for celtic that their fans chose to spend so much money on this, and for a club so willing to tell us of their supposed greatness, this is such a waste of time, effort and money (which could have been donated to charities).  

 

It is also highly irresponsible as what is already a highly charged match just became even more so.  Once again, celtic, or people connected with celtic, fuel the fire, stir it up as much as they possibly can and then will claim to be innocent and the victim (yet again) if anything serious happens on Sunday.  

 

I'm fairly certain that irrespective of the ad there is going to be carnage on Sunday. Whilst equal parts amusing and provocative, my own opinion is that the ad is somewhat akin to rearranging deckchairs on the Titanic. 

[BRAVEHEART1874]

The advert was boring but haven't seen anything in the thread set up just for Bryce and his sympathisers that proves anything incorrect - hope its a fair game coming up maybe really need to get Muslims or athiest as the refs though

[Bowmans_Boot]

I'm fairly certain that irrespective of the ad there is going to be carnage on Sunday. Whilst equal parts amusing and provocative, my own opinion is that the ad is somewhat akin to rearranging deckchairs on the Titanic. 

 

Sitting in Texas it may well be amusing, but for the average Glaswegian it most probably wont be.  The ad was very, very poorly thought-out, by people who dont think things out that often - not a great combination.  

[Bowmans_Boot]

The advert was boring but haven't seen anything in the thread set up just for Bryce and his sympathisers that proves anything incorrect

 

So Middlesbrough are a new club, Napoli are a new club - you dont recognise them as the same at all, no?  Who else?  If you really, really want to go back in history then hibs would be the same, no?  But it is a bit sad to say that and to clutch straws like that.....  In my opinion, anyway.  

[trotter]

Sitting in Texas it may well be amusing, but for the average Glaswegian it most probably wont.  The ad was very, very poorly thought-out, by people who dont think things out that often - not a great combination.  

 

Why? Because a bunch of neanderthal thugs are gonna have a bit of a scrap at some point? I reiterate my point, if it's going to kick-off, it was going to happen long before that ad got placed. Now, aside from whether it's funny or not, it does raise valid points. As far as I can see, nothing that the Celtic fans wrote is factually incorrect is it? And that brings me neatly on to another point, why do so many people on here actually care? We took the piss at length after 5-1, we took the piss with Seven Nation Army, both of which were pretty childish, but also pretty funny. It's what football fans do. Unless of course you have certain leanings, but you're a good PHM aren't you BB?

[Bowmans_Boot]

Why? Because a bunch of neanderthal thugs are gonna have a bit of a scrap at some point? I reiterate my point, if it's going to kick-off, it was going to happen long before that ad got placed. Now, aside from whether it's funny or not, it does raise valid points. As far as I can see, nothing that the Celtic fans wrote is factually incorrect is it? And that brings me neatly on to another point, why do so many people on here actually care? We took the piss at length after 5-1, we took the piss with Seven Nation Army, both of which were pretty childish, but also pretty funny. It's what football fans do. Unless of course you have certain leanings, but you're a good PHM aren't you BB?

 

You can say that it is factually correct but, as I have said several times, I do not believe that a football club dies through financial difficulties.  Do you?  What about the examples I gave? Are they all brand new clubs with no history?

 

Yes, this fixture was always going to be problematic, but adverts like this make it even more so - noone could possibly deny that, hence it was stupid to do.  celtic have done what celtic always, always do - fan the flames and they will no doubt run a mile if anything happens......

 

Ok, am I "a good PHM" - :P :P  GREAT get-out....  

[BRAVEHEART1874]

Don't care one iota about any English team and troubles And remember it is just an opinion after all

[The Mighty Thor]

Arch hun wades into the debate shocker.

Rangers 1872 died. Dead. No more.

Sevco 5088 replaced them in sfl league 2.

The current incarnation 'the ranger's currently languishes in the sfl championship.

I trust this clarifies matters.

[jamboz]

It amazes me the number of Hearts fans that seem to be looking forward to the next twenty years of mediocrity and kowtowing to Sevco and Celtic!

 

I recognise that spiritually, traditionally, morally, financially and bigotry they are the same team with the same fans, that is fine but as The Mighty Thor correctly points out Rangers 1872 died.  

 

Accepting the revisionists 'truth' is tantamount to accepting that Rangers did not cheat their way to glory over the last 20 years.  To accept they spent 47 million pounds or so on players they should not have been able to afford, with side letters, tax evasion, bullying, using the bank to pressure other clubs (like Hearts regularly) to sell their best players at knock down prices etc, etc.

 

Sevco certainly  have not learned anything from the whole debacle and appear to be on course for more shenanigans which yet again might have a knock on affect for us and the rest of Scottish football. So I am quite happy for them to be reminded that they did not get away with it and to show the authorities that we have not forgotten their complicity and compliance in this whole stinking affair.  

 

Contrary to popular belief I think that Scottish football needs this kind of thing to happen because the authorities, media and apparently plenty of other fans are happy to continue as if nothing ever happened.

 

Scottish football does not need a strong 'Raingurz' but a strong SFA, a strong media and a strong SPFL.  In the absence of any of those though we just have to put up with a bunch of Celtic fans being their collective conscience, which is a small price to pay in my book.

[Diego10]

So Middlesbrough are a new club, Napoli are a new club - you dont recognise them as the same at all, no? Who else? If you really, really want to go back in history then hibs would be the same, no? But it is a bit sad to say that and to clutch straws like that..... In my opinion, anyway.

Well Middlesbrough did all they could to be portrayed as a new club at the time, including changing their badge to1986, to avoid the debts of the old club.

 

What's your views on Airdrie? Same fan base, same strips but I would say a new club.

 

In respect of Rangers, it doesn't really bother me that much either way. I'd say technically they were a new club but I don't really care about them claiming the history due to the clear continuation of support. I suppose it's a bit like a Koala. Technically it isn't a bear, but everyone thinks of it as one except those who really care about taxonomy.

[TheMaganator]

Renowned hun sympathiser gives his tuppence worth

 

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/old-firm-once-hampden-rocking-5047530

[bighusref]

On the "Are they still Rangers?" debate I have been very consistent in saying that I believe they are and still view them as such, as with Middlesbrough, Napoli and others. Had the worst happened to Hearts, I was also consistent in saying that I would have supported the new team and still seen them as Hearts. For me, financial difficulties do not break a club in its entirety.

 

I think it is embarrassing for celtic that their fans chose to spend so much money on this, and for a club so willing to tell us of their supposed greatness, this is such a waste of time, effort and money (which could have been donated to charities).

 

It is also highly irresponsible as what is already a highly charged match just became even more so. Once again, celtic, or people connected with celtic, fuel the fire, stir it up as much as they possibly can and then will claim to be innocent and the victim (yet again) if anything serious happens on Sunday.

Bang on the cash.

[bighusref]

Why? Because a bunch of neanderthal thugs are gonna have a bit of a scrap at some point? I reiterate my point, if it's going to kick-off, it was going to happen long before that ad got placed. Now, aside from whether it's funny or not, it does raise valid points. As far as I can see, nothing that the Celtic fans wrote is factually incorrect is it? And that brings me neatly on to another point, why do so many people on here actually care? We took the piss at length after 5-1, we took the piss with Seven Nation Army, both of which were pretty childish, but also pretty funny. It's what football fans do. Unless of course you have certain leanings, but you're a good PHM aren't you BB?

To be absolutely clear, it won't just be the Neanderthal thugs that get hurt if it really kicks off, as I suspect it will.

[SUTOL]

How can something that has died still be alive? 

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

The advert would never have existed if the authorities hadn't ducked the question of whether the team from Ibrox regenerated like Dr Who or reformed as a new entity.

[JamboX2]

Got the Sunday Herald this week for a change. Was struck by how far it's fallen in terms of quality since last summer. That advert confirmed that to me in spades.

 

Dreadful move by the Chief Editor to put that to print.

[Francis Albert]

Renowned hun sympathiser gives his tuppence worth

 

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/old-firm-once-hampden-rocking-5047530

Noted OF traditionalist more like.

[Francis Albert]

Got the Sunday Herald this week for a change. Was struck by how far it's fallen in terms of quality since last summer. That advert confirmed that to me in spades.

 

Dreadful move by the Chief Editor to put that to print.

And he should have refused to print it on what grounds?

[TheMaganator]

Got the Sunday Herald this week for a change. Was struck by how far it's fallen in terms of quality since last summer. That advert confirmed that to me in spades.

 

Dreadful move by the Chief Editor to put that to print.

I hadn't realised it was the Sunday Herald. The only paper to come out and support a Yes vote.

 

Did they think any Rangers fans would actually read that

[CBjambo]

Factually accurate? Yes

Expected? Yes

Classless? Completely

 

The major shock here is that people are shocked!

 

Two cheeks of the same erse. Be very glad that you are not part of the hatred fueled Glasgow footballing cauldron that is the 'Old (Newco) Firm!'

[Rudy T]

Bringing down the SFA won't happen. Changing it into an organisation that evenly represents the whole Scottish game will only happen if the other 40 clubs have the balls to do

so, including calling the "OF"'s ridiculous bluff of the threat to abandon Scottish football for ... well wherever would be stupid enough to take them. The fact that the absurdly undemocratic voting rules

remain unaltered even after the ludicrous "Armageddon" forecasts and the fact that those forecasts have proved utterly wrong does not unfortunately augur well.

 

Maybe the fans of the other 40 clubs could get together to fund a full page advert or two urging their clubs to act!

I agree they should stand up and be counted but the point to this thread is the admission from Rangers and their fans they are a new club.

 

Anyone that harbours the romantic notion that this admission will somehow change the status quo of Scottish football is dreaming. As Lennon says today, come Sunday it'll be business as usual and the showpiece game the SFA have been dreaming of for 3 years will happen and be hyped up as the "old firm semi final"

[THIRABHESES]

It amazes me the number of Hearts fans that seem to be looking forward to the next twenty years of mediocrity and kowtowing to Sevco and Celtic!

 

I recognise that spiritually, traditionally, morally, financially and bigotry they are the same team with the same fans, that is fine but as The Mighty Thor correctly points out Rangers 1872 died.  

 

Accepting the revisionists 'truth' is tantamount to accepting that Rangers did not cheat their way to glory over the last 20 years.  To accept they spent 47 million pounds or so on players they should not have been able to afford, with side letters, tax evasion, bullying, using the bank to pressure other clubs (like Hearts regularly) to sell their best players at knock down prices etc, etc.

 

Sevco certainly  have not learned anything from the whole debacle and appear to be on course for more shenanigans which yet again might have a knock on affect for us and the rest of Scottish football. So I am quite happy for them to be reminded that they did not get away with it and to show the authorities that we have not forgotten their complicity and compliance in this whole stinking affair.  

 

Contrary to popular belief I think that Scottish football needs this kind of thing to happen because the authorities, media and apparently plenty of other fans are happy to continue as if nothing ever happened.

 

Scottish football does not need a strong 'Raingurz' but a strong SFA, a strong media and a strong SPFL.  In the absence of any of those though we just have to put up with a bunch of Celtic fans being their collective conscience, which is a small price to pay in my book.

The same 'collective conscience' that thinks we cheated in 2012

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

The view of Alex Rae:

 

?Rangers, over the years, have tried to conduct themselves in the right manner, with a bit of dignity, so it?s not important what they do. What is important is how we conduct ourselves.?

 

[We_are_the_Hearts]

The view of Alex Rae:

 

?Rangers, over the years, have tried to conduct themselves in the right manner, with a bit of dignity, so it?s not important what they do. What is important is how we conduct ourselves.?

 

Take it he back on the drink 

[Pistol1874]

The same 'collective conscience' that thinks we cheated in 2012

Almost every Scottish Club has carried debt of some form, most in trying to keep up with Rangers. It has led several to some very dark times.

 

However, all of those clubs registered their players in accordance with the rules and included every payment they recieved in relation to their employment by said club.

 

One didn't and incredibly, signing superior players this way (players who would not have come for without this payment) was not deemed to have led to a sporting advantage. Of all of this, I find that the most laughable. That and the fact that the SFA still has not sacked their employee, the man who knew all about it.

 

Unless a club has no debt at all, then you are talking about degrees of financial incompetence. If you wish to label that 'cheating' then everyone is at, just to differing extents. 

 

When you deliberately do not register your players in accordance with the rules (to gain an advantage however you slice it), then you are cheating.

[alanbauld]

Wonder if there is any point in the police warning The Rangers players about goal celebrations.

[DETTY29]

Almost every Scottish Club has carried debt of some form, most in trying to keep up with Rangers. It has led several to some very dark times.

 

However, all of those clubs registered their players in accordance with the rules and included every payment they recieved in relation to their employment by said club.

 

One didn't and incredibly, signing superior players this way (players who would not have come for without this payment) was not deemed to have led to a sporting advantage. Of all of this, I find that the most laughable. That and the fact that the SFA still has not sacked their employee, the man who knew all about it.

 

Unless a club has no debt at all, then you are talking about degrees of financial incompetence. If you wish to label that 'cheating' then everyone is at, just to differing extents. 

 

When you deliberately do not register your players in accordance with the rules (to gain an advantage however you slice it), then you are cheating.

Personally I think the Celtic fans would have been better putting out an ad focusing on the information that they believe was withheld from the LNS commission and that under the Terms of Reference provided to LNS by Doncaster and Rod McKenzie, Doncaster got the very results he was looking for, including keeping the heid SFA guy out the football pokey.

 

In absolute Scots Law legal terms, I'd imagine the current Rangers is a new club however football rules have ignored the rule of law for years.  (Albeit Doncaster the commercial arm has come out and said same club, but the guy who hands out the licences not so).  There is very little in this incarnation of Rangers and they way they act, other folks view of them and footballs 'make it up as we go along under board discretion' rules to suggest it is not a valid argument to suggest it's not Rangers.

 

They will however be 'Sevco Forever' for as long as it winds them up.

 

Or until Ashley calls then Sports Direct, Govan 

[Pistol1874]

Personally I think the Celtic fans would have been better putting out an ad focusing on the information that they believe was withheld from the LNS commission and that under the Terms of Reference provided to LNS by Doncaster and Rod McKenzie, Doncaster got the very results he was looking for, including keeping the heid SFA guy out the football pokey.

 

In absolute Scots Law legal terms, I'd imagine the current Rangers is a new club however football rules have ignored the rule of law for years.  (Albeit Doncaster the commercial arm has come out and said same club, but the guy who hands out the licences not so).  There is very little in this incarnation of Rangers and they way they act, other folks view of them and footballs 'make it up as we go along under board discretion' rules to suggest it is not a valid argument to suggest it's not Rangers.

 

They will however be 'Sevco Forever' for as long as it winds them up.

 

Or until Ashley calls then Sports Direct, Govan 

Certainly a better way to spend their money, all their advert did was preach to the converted.

[Paolo]

The view of Alex Rae:

 

?Rangers, over the years, have tried to conduct themselves in the right manner, with a bit of dignity, so it?s not important what they do. What is important is how we conduct ourselves.?

 

Of course they have...

[JamboX2]

I hadn't realised it was the Sunday Herald. The only paper to come out and support a Yes vote.

 

Did they think any Rangers fans would actually read that

It's political leanings aside (left of centre gets my vote for a read), but the actual content and tone of the paper and its contributors are all really peddling crap atm.

 

Have respect for Tom Gordon, good writer. But how the executive board thought this was a good idea is beyond me.

[newbie]

Unfortunately, there are too many supposedly educated jambos on here who somehow fail to see the patently obvious link between the cheating employed by Rangers for years, the blind eye turned to that cheating and indeed the assistance provided by the football authorities in that cheating, the failure to report the cheating by the mainstream media, the abject failure of all concerned to apply appropriate sanctions to Rangers commensurate with their crimes, but most of all, fellow jambos seem to have a blind spot that fails to see how that cheating affected Hearts, and every other Scottish club.

 

And before Bryce arrives to complain that the EBT tax case is still ongoing, I?m referring to the wee tax case whereby Rangers employed an illegal tax scheme, which they subsequently admitted to through their lawyers, but have never been punished for. In effect, they employed three players (Ronald De Boer, Craig Moore and Tore Andre Flo) they couldn?t otherwise have afforded, by offering an illegal tax incentive ? cheating in plain parlance. Does anyone seriously believe that if the Rangers that had cheated in this way had been Berwick Rangers or Brora Rangers, they wouldn?t have been kicked out of the league? Spartans were unceremoniously booted out of the Scottish Cup for the heinous crime of missing a date from a form, a genuine administrative error!

 

How many times did we witness Vlad receiving tens of thousands of pounds in fines for his monkeys and mafia rants yet Walter Smith could verbally slaughter the SFA with impunity, as could Charles Green? Rangers fans make much of one favourable sentence within the LNS report, but neither they nor the guardians of our game can explain why the football authorities chose to exclude this cheating from the scope of the LNS enquiry. In addition, leaked documents confirm that Charles Green was assured there would be no title-stripping before the enquiry even took place. How could he possibly be given such assurances unless our corrupt officials had either demanded a predetermined outcome of LNS, or at least narrowed the scope of the enquiry by submitting limited evidence and restricting the commission's parameters? Then there was the matter of the SFA issuing Rangers with a UEFA licence in 2011, despite the club having an outstanding social tax bill.

 

Now you might think this is all boring and irrelevant, in which case you?re probably one of the many on this thread who are inexplicably apathetic about the Celtic supporters advert, but how much more prize money might Hearts have won if Rangers had been justifiably launched from Scottish football for cheating? How many more trophies might we have won? How many more European nights might we have experienced? How much less might we have had to extend ourselves financially if we didn?t feel compelled to compete with the financial doping of the cheating club?

 

To those who argue that the fans are the club, therefore the club continues despite liquidation, or that Leeds, Crystal Palace, Middlesbrough, etc survived liquidation ? I?m afraid that you?re falling for age old myths quoted by ?ra peepul? to try and make themselves feel better. They constantly quote clubs who do not bear comparison, either because they were not liquidated, or they were liquidated before the introduction of the Insolvency Act 1986 (before which liquidation was merely the equivalent of what we now call administration), or they were not subject to Scots Law or the rules and regulations of the Scottish football authorities. The only club whose demise can be likened to Rangers death in recent times is Gretna FC, who no longer exist. Those of you who think that a football club is simply its fans might want to explain why Gretna 2008 has no legal connection to, nor claims to the history of, its defunct predecessor, despite sharing its fanbase and Raydale Park, the stadium. Surely if a club continues despite liquidation as per the Rangers myth, Gretna Football Club still exists, no?

 

Finally, Bryan Jackson has spent 30 years in business restructuring during which he has helped to save four football clubs from oblivion. Ann Budge is an experienced and successful businesswoman. Why did these two fine people decide to put their heart and soul into avoiding liquidation if liquidation merely affects a meaningless company, but the club is immortal?

 

Please open your eyes to the bigger picture and forget that it was organised by Celtic fans ? the advert is aimed at our corrupt football authorities and the blatant propaganda put out by our pathetic mainstream media that drums into us that Scottish football needs a strong Rangers. Only Rangers need a strong Rangers. Hearts, and the rest of Scottish football,  would be much better placed without them, thank you very much.    

[Francis Albert]

It's political leanings aside (left of centre gets my vote for a read), but the actual content and tone of the paper and its contributors are all really peddling crap atm.

 

Have respect for Tom Gordon, good writer. But how the executive board thought this was a good idea is beyond me.

To repeat an earlier question on what grounds do you think the Herald should have refused to publish the advert?

 

(On the wider issue almost all papers are peddling crap these days. They seem to have no strategy for combating new media other than sinking to new media's level or below)

[jambovambo]

Unfortunately, there are too many supposedly educated jambos on here who somehow fail to see the patently obvious link between the cheating employed by Rangers for years, the blind eye turned to that cheating and indeed the assistance provided by the football authorities in that cheating, the failure to report the cheating by the mainstream media, the abject failure of all concerned to apply appropriate sanctions to Rangers commensurate with their crimes, but most of all, fellow jambos seem to have a blind spot that fails to see how that cheating affected Hearts, and every other Scottish club.

 

And before Bryce arrives to complain that the EBT tax case is still ongoing, I?m referring to the wee tax case whereby Rangers employed an illegal tax scheme, which they subsequently admitted to through their lawyers, but have never been punished for. In effect, they employed three players (Ronald De Boer, Craig Moore and Tore Andre Flo) they couldn?t otherwise have afforded, by offering an illegal tax incentive ? cheating in plain parlance. Does anyone seriously believe that if the Rangers that had cheated in this way had been Berwick Rangers or Brora Rangers, they wouldn?t have been kicked out of the league? Spartans were unceremoniously booted out of the Scottish Cup for the heinous crime of missing a date from a form, a genuine administrative error!

 

How many times did we witness Vlad receiving tens of thousands of pounds in fines for his monkeys and mafia rants yet Walter Smith could verbally slaughter the SFA with impunity, as could Charles Green? Rangers fans make much of one favourable sentence within the LNS report, but neither they nor the guardians of our game can explain why the football authorities chose to exclude this cheating from the scope of the LNS enquiry. In addition, leaked documents confirm that Charles Green was assured there would be no title-stripping before the enquiry even took place. How could he possibly be given such assurances unless our corrupt officials had either demanded a predetermined outcome of LNS, or at least narrowed the scope of the enquiry by submitting limited evidence and restricting the commission's parameters? Then there was the matter of the SFA issuing Rangers with a UEFA licence in 2011, despite the club having an outstanding social tax bill.

 

Now you might think this is all boring and irrelevant, in which case you?re probably one of the many on this thread who are inexplicably apathetic about the Celtic supporters advert, but how much more prize money might Hearts have won if Rangers had been justifiably launched from Scottish football for cheating? How many more trophies might we have won? How many more European nights might we have experienced? How much less might we have had to extend ourselves financially if we didn?t feel compelled to compete with the financial doping of the cheating club?

 

To those who argue that the fans are the club, therefore the club continues despite liquidation, or that Leeds, Crystal Palace, Middlesbrough, etc survived liquidation ? I?m afraid that you?re falling for age old myths quoted by ?ra peepul? to try and make themselves feel better. They constantly quote clubs who do not bear comparison, either because they were not liquidated, or they were liquidated before the introduction of the Insolvency Act 1986 (before which liquidation was merely the equivalent of what we now call administration), or they were not subject to Scots Law or the rules and regulations of the Scottish football authorities. The only club whose demise can be likened to Rangers death in recent times is Gretna FC, who no longer exist. Those of you who think that a football club is simply its fans might want to explain why Gretna 2008 has no legal connection to, nor claims to the history of, its defunct predecessor, despite sharing its fanbase and Raydale Park, the stadium. Surely if a club continues despite liquidation as per the Rangers myth, Gretna Football Club still exists, no?

 

Finally, Bryan Jackson has spent 30 years in business restructuring during which he has helped to save four football clubs from oblivion. Ann Budge is an experienced and successful businesswoman. Why did these two fine people decide to put their heart and soul into avoiding liquidation if liquidation merely affects a meaningless company, but the club is immortal?

 

Please open your eyes to the bigger picture and forget that it was organised by Celtic fans ? the advert is aimed at our corrupt football authorities and the blatant propaganda put out by our pathetic mainstream media that drums into us that Scottish football needs a strong Rangers. Only Rangers need a strong Rangers. Hearts, and the rest of Scottish football, would be much better placed without them, thank you very much.

Top stuff, Newbie.

[Desmundo]

I keep looking in on this thread in fascination at the incredible amount of painstaking research that some have apparently undertaken to support their side of the argument; a neutral observer might suggest that such keen interest was bordering on the obsessive. I wonder what end result those in the 'new club' camp would hope to achieve, because it's not particularly obvious from what I've read. What would be the benefit to Hearts in 2015 if an ultimate authority was to definitively state that Rangers were a new club formed in 2012?

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MacDonald Jardine]

I keep looking in on this thread in fascination at the incredible amount of painstaking research that some have apparently undertaken to support their side of the argument; a neutral observer might suggest that such keen interest was bordering on the obsessive. I wonder what end result those in the 'new club' camp would hope to achieve, because it's not particularly obvious from what I've read. What would be the benefit to Hearts in 2015 if an ultimate authority was to definitively state that Rangers were a new club formed in 2012?

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Moral superiority probably.

[Barney Rubble]

Unfortunately, there are too many supposedly educated jambos on here who somehow fail to see the patently obvious link between the cheating employed by Rangers for years, the blind eye turned to that cheating and indeed the assistance provided by the football authorities in that cheating, the failure to report the cheating by the mainstream media, the abject failure of all concerned to apply appropriate sanctions to Rangers commensurate with their crimes, but most of all, fellow jambos seem to have a blind spot that fails to see how that cheating affected Hearts, and every other Scottish club.

 

And before Bryce arrives to complain that the EBT tax case is still ongoing, I?m referring to the wee tax case whereby Rangers employed an illegal tax scheme, which they subsequently admitted to through their lawyers, but have never been punished for. In effect, they employed three players (Ronald De Boer, Craig Moore and Tore Andre Flo) they couldn?t otherwise have afforded, by offering an illegal tax incentive ? cheating in plain parlance. Does anyone seriously believe that if the Rangers that had cheated in this way had been Berwick Rangers or Brora Rangers, they wouldn?t have been kicked out of the league? Spartans were unceremoniously booted out of the Scottish Cup for the heinous crime of missing a date from a form, a genuine administrative error!

 

How many times did we witness Vlad receiving tens of thousands of pounds in fines for his monkeys and mafia rants yet Walter Smith could verbally slaughter the SFA with impunity, as could Charles Green? Rangers fans make much of one favourable sentence within the LNS report, but neither they nor the guardians of our game can explain why the football authorities chose to exclude this cheating from the scope of the LNS enquiry. In addition, leaked documents confirm that Charles Green was assured there would be no title-stripping before the enquiry even took place. How could he possibly be given such assurances unless our corrupt officials had either demanded a predetermined outcome of LNS, or at least narrowed the scope of the enquiry by submitting limited evidence and restricting the commission's parameters? Then there was the matter of the SFA issuing Rangers with a UEFA licence in 2011, despite the club having an outstanding social tax bill.

 

Now you might think this is all boring and irrelevant, in which case you?re probably one of the many on this thread who are inexplicably apathetic about the Celtic supporters advert, but how much more prize money might Hearts have won if Rangers had been justifiably launched from Scottish football for cheating? How many more trophies might we have won? How many more European nights might we have experienced? How much less might we have had to extend ourselves financially if we didn?t feel compelled to compete with the financial doping of the cheating club?

 

To those who argue that the fans are the club, therefore the club continues despite liquidation, or that Leeds, Crystal Palace, Middlesbrough, etc survived liquidation ? I?m afraid that you?re falling for age old myths quoted by ?ra peepul? to try and make themselves feel better. They constantly quote clubs who do not bear comparison, either because they were not liquidated, or they were liquidated before the introduction of the Insolvency Act 1986 (before which liquidation was merely the equivalent of what we now call administration), or they were not subject to Scots Law or the rules and regulations of the Scottish football authorities. The only club whose demise can be likened to Rangers death in recent times is Gretna FC, who no longer exist. Those of you who think that a football club is simply its fans might want to explain why Gretna 2008 has no legal connection to, nor claims to the history of, its defunct predecessor, despite sharing its fanbase and Raydale Park, the stadium. Surely if a club continues despite liquidation as per the Rangers myth, Gretna Football Club still exists, no?

 

Finally, Bryan Jackson has spent 30 years in business restructuring during which he has helped to save four football clubs from oblivion. Ann Budge is an experienced and successful businesswoman. Why did these two fine people decide to put their heart and soul into avoiding liquidation if liquidation merely affects a meaningless company, but the club is immortal?

 

Please open your eyes to the bigger picture and forget that it was organised by Celtic fans ? the advert is aimed at our corrupt football authorities and the blatant propaganda put out by our pathetic mainstream media that drums into us that Scottish football needs a strong Rangers. Only Rangers need a strong Rangers. Hearts, and the rest of Scottish football,  would be much better placed without them, thank you very much.    

 

 

 

Bang on the cash sir

[ollie2004]

Unfortunately, there are too many supposedly educated jambos on here who somehow fail to see the patently obvious link between the cheating employed by Rangers for years, the blind eye turned to that cheating and indeed the assistance provided by the football authorities in that cheating, the failure to report the cheating by the mainstream media, the abject failure of all concerned to apply appropriate sanctions to Rangers commensurate with their crimes, but most of all, fellow jambos seem to have a blind spot that fails to see how that cheating affected Hearts, and every other Scottish club.

 

And before Bryce arrives to complain that the EBT tax case is still ongoing, I?m referring to the wee tax case whereby Rangers employed an illegal tax scheme, which they subsequently admitted to through their lawyers, but have never been punished for. In effect, they employed three players (Ronald De Boer, Craig Moore and Tore Andre Flo) they couldn?t otherwise have afforded, by offering an illegal tax incentive ? cheating in plain parlance. Does anyone seriously believe that if the Rangers that had cheated in this way had been Berwick Rangers or Brora Rangers, they wouldn?t have been kicked out of the league? Spartans were unceremoniously booted out of the Scottish Cup for the heinous crime of missing a date from a form, a genuine administrative error!

 

How many times did we witness Vlad receiving tens of thousands of pounds in fines for his monkeys and mafia rants yet Walter Smith could verbally slaughter the SFA with impunity, as could Charles Green? Rangers fans make much of one favourable sentence within the LNS report, but neither they nor the guardians of our game can explain why the football authorities chose to exclude this cheating from the scope of the LNS enquiry. In addition, leaked documents confirm that Charles Green was assured there would be no title-stripping before the enquiry even took place. How could he possibly be given such assurances unless our corrupt officials had either demanded a predetermined outcome of LNS, or at least narrowed the scope of the enquiry by submitting limited evidence and restricting the commission's parameters? Then there was the matter of the SFA issuing Rangers with a UEFA licence in 2011, despite the club having an outstanding social tax bill.

 

Now you might think this is all boring and irrelevant, in which case you?re probably one of the many on this thread who are inexplicably apathetic about the Celtic supporters advert, but how much more prize money might Hearts have won if Rangers had been justifiably launched from Scottish football for cheating? How many more trophies might we have won? How many more European nights might we have experienced? How much less might we have had to extend ourselves financially if we didn?t feel compelled to compete with the financial doping of the cheating club?

 

To those who argue that the fans are the club, therefore the club continues despite liquidation, or that Leeds, Crystal Palace, Middlesbrough, etc survived liquidation ? I?m afraid that you?re falling for age old myths quoted by ?ra peepul? to try and make themselves feel better. They constantly quote clubs who do not bear comparison, either because they were not liquidated, or they were liquidated before the introduction of the Insolvency Act 1986 (before which liquidation was merely the equivalent of what we now call administration), or they were not subject to Scots Law or the rules and regulations of the Scottish football authorities. The only club whose demise can be likened to Rangers death in recent times is Gretna FC, who no longer exist. Those of you who think that a football club is simply its fans might want to explain why Gretna 2008 has no legal connection to, nor claims to the history of, its defunct predecessor, despite sharing its fanbase and Raydale Park, the stadium. Surely if a club continues despite liquidation as per the Rangers myth, Gretna Football Club still exists, no?

 

Finally, Bryan Jackson has spent 30 years in business restructuring during which he has helped to save four football clubs from oblivion. Ann Budge is an experienced and successful businesswoman. Why did these two fine people decide to put their heart and soul into avoiding liquidation if liquidation merely affects a meaningless company, but the club is immortal?

 

Please open your eyes to the bigger picture and forget that it was organised by Celtic fans ? the advert is aimed at our corrupt football authorities and the blatant propaganda put out by our pathetic mainstream media that drums into us that Scottish football needs a strong Rangers. Only Rangers need a strong Rangers. Hearts, and the rest of Scottish football,  would be much better placed without them, thank you very much.    

Respect mate, you have put it as it is, agree one million% in particular your points referring to Bryan Jackson and Ann Budge.

[Pistol1874]

I keep looking in on this thread in fascination at the incredible amount of painstaking research that some have apparently undertaken to support their side of the argument; a neutral observer might suggest that such keen interest was bordering on the obsessive. I wonder what end result those in the 'new club' camp would hope to achieve, because it's not particularly obvious from what I've read. What would be the benefit to Hearts in 2015 if an ultimate authority was to definitively state that Rangers were a new club formed in 2012?

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Were the authorities to come out and state that this Rangers started in 2012, that the trophies won with incorrectly registered players were to be stripped from the history of the club which died in 2012 and that their next league title would be their first, it reduces the chances of them ever again having the size of crowd which would allow them to compete with Celtic.

Without their sister club, Celtic's crowds may well continue to wane, in time leaving a more equitable Scottish game in which Hearts may be more predominant and, potentially, more successful.

[Francis Albert]

Sorry, not buying Newbie's contribution. I have no problem with the Herald advert or even with most of the arguments in Newbie's post. But it just reads too much like a well prepared follow up to the Herald advert to ring true. Apologies if I am way out.

[TheMaganator]

Unfortunately, there are too many supposedly educated jambos on here who somehow fail to see the patently obvious link between the cheating employed by Rangers for years, the blind eye turned to that cheating and indeed the assistance provided by the football authorities in that cheating, the failure to report the cheating by the mainstream media, the abject failure of all concerned to apply appropriate sanctions to Rangers commensurate with their crimes, but most of all, fellow jambos seem to have a blind spot that fails to see how that cheating affected Hearts, and every other Scottish club.

 

And before Bryce arrives to complain that the EBT tax case is still ongoing, I?m referring to the wee tax case whereby Rangers employed an illegal tax scheme, which they subsequently admitted to through their lawyers, but have never been punished for. In effect, they employed three players (Ronald De Boer, Craig Moore and Tore Andre Flo) they couldn?t otherwise have afforded, by offering an illegal tax incentive ? cheating in plain parlance. Does anyone seriously believe that if the Rangers that had cheated in this way had been Berwick Rangers or Brora Rangers, they wouldn?t have been kicked out of the league? Spartans were unceremoniously booted out of the Scottish Cup for the heinous crime of missing a date from a form, a genuine administrative error!

 

How many times did we witness Vlad receiving tens of thousands of pounds in fines for his monkeys and mafia rants yet Walter Smith could verbally slaughter the SFA with impunity, as could Charles Green? Rangers fans make much of one favourable sentence within the LNS report, but neither they nor the guardians of our game can explain why the football authorities chose to exclude this cheating from the scope of the LNS enquiry. In addition, leaked documents confirm that Charles Green was assured there would be no title-stripping before the enquiry even took place. How could he possibly be given such assurances unless our corrupt officials had either demanded a predetermined outcome of LNS, or at least narrowed the scope of the enquiry by submitting limited evidence and restricting the commission's parameters? Then there was the matter of the SFA issuing Rangers with a UEFA licence in 2011, despite the club having an outstanding social tax bill.

 

Now you might think this is all boring and irrelevant, in which case you?re probably one of the many on this thread who are inexplicably apathetic about the Celtic supporters advert, but how much more prize money might Hearts have won if Rangers had been justifiably launched from Scottish football for cheating? How many more trophies might we have won? How many more European nights might we have experienced? How much less might we have had to extend ourselves financially if we didn?t feel compelled to compete with the financial doping of the cheating club?

 

To those who argue that the fans are the club, therefore the club continues despite liquidation, or that Leeds, Crystal Palace, Middlesbrough, etc survived liquidation ? I?m afraid that you?re falling for age old myths quoted by ?ra peepul? to try and make themselves feel better. They constantly quote clubs who do not bear comparison, either because they were not liquidated, or they were liquidated before the introduction of the Insolvency Act 1986 (before which liquidation was merely the equivalent of what we now call administration), or they were not subject to Scots Law or the rules and regulations of the Scottish football authorities. The only club whose demise can be likened to Rangers death in recent times is Gretna FC, who no longer exist. Those of you who think that a football club is simply its fans might want to explain why Gretna 2008 has no legal connection to, nor claims to the history of, its defunct predecessor, despite sharing its fanbase and Raydale Park, the stadium. Surely if a club continues despite liquidation as per the Rangers myth, Gretna Football Club still exists, no?

 

Finally, Bryan Jackson has spent 30 years in business restructuring during which he has helped to save four football clubs from oblivion. Ann Budge is an experienced and successful businesswoman. Why did these two fine people decide to put their heart and soul into avoiding liquidation if liquidation merely affects a meaningless company, but the club is immortal?

 

Please open your eyes to the bigger picture and forget that it was organised by Celtic fans ? the advert is aimed at our corrupt football authorities and the blatant propaganda put out by our pathetic mainstream media that drums into us that Scottish football needs a strong Rangers. Only Rangers need a strong Rangers. Hearts, and the rest of Scottish football, would be much better placed without them, thank you very much.

A few points:

 

Jackson, despite what he may have said in the papers, has a legal obligation to get the best deal for the creditors. He thought that would be through administration rather than liquidation. So I'm not sure I get your point.

 

If you're treating the Rangers currently trailing us by 13 points as a completely new identity then why are the indiscretions of a separate club (oldco) of concern to you? They can't be punished. They don't exist.

 

I don't think anyone disputes your last point.

 

But what do you want to do about it? What is the end goal for you and the Celtic fans who paid ?3k for the advert. They can't be punished, they're a new club.

 

What people have been saying here is that it still feels like we're beating old Rangers. It still feels great when we beat them because there is an undeniable history there.

 

Or are you trying to say that when we beat them at the start of the season it meant no more to you than beating a lower decision club we'd never played before?

 

No amount of calling us hun sympathisers or 'supposedly educated' changes the fact that it still feels great beating them because of the history involved in the fixture.

[ollie2004]

Sorry, not buying Newbie's contribution. I have no problem with the Herald advert or even with most of the arguments in Newbie's post. But it just reads too much like a well prepared follow up to the Herald advert to ring true. Apologies if I am way out.

You are entitled to your opinion, although I agree with Newbie on this issue.

[Francis Albert]

You are entitled to your opinion, although I agree with Newbie on this issue.

As I said I agree with most of what he says. It's the timing, structure and his "Newbieness" (a grand total of 4 posts since 2009, all on this thread?) that makes me a teeny bit suspicious. I hope my suspicions are unfounded.

[newbie]

I keep looking in on this thread in fascination at the incredible amount of painstaking research that some have apparently undertaken to support their side of the argument; a neutral observer might suggest that such keen interest was bordering on the obsessive. I wonder what end result those in the 'new club' camp would hope to achieve, because it's not particularly obvious from what I've read. What would be the benefit to Hearts in 2015 if an ultimate authority was to definitively state that Rangers were a new club formed in 2012?

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

 

In my estimation, the football authorities making known that the new club is not the old club would be the first stage in the recovery process for Scottish football, much in the same way that an alcoholic isn't going to help himself until he admits he has a problem. Rangers fans and club are never going to concede their old club was liquidated because it doesn't fit in with the sense of entitlement and superiority they've developed. Their world record number of league titles would be under threat and preserving this is critical to them. Nobody is expecting them to disappear, in the sense that there will always be a form of Rangers, probably playing out of Ibrox in red, white and blue and watched by the same supporters. I don't have a problem with this, indeed I'd encourage it. What annoys me is that they think we should believe their history continues into the present when it clearly ended in 2012. What difference will it make to Hearts? That all depends. If the current guardians of our game are removed and replaced by people who don't solely subscribe to the theory that the Old Firm are the beginning and the end of Scottish football, we might see other clubs such as Hearts begin to flourish like Aberdeen, Dundee Utd, ICT, Hamilton etc. If this is Armageddon, bring it on!   

[Unknown user]

As I said I agree with most of what he says. It's the timing, structure and his "Newbieness" that makes me a teeny bit suspicious. I hope my suspicions are unfounded.

You're clearly right IMO, waaaay too much of a coincidence for me to believe.

 

"Only Rangers need a strong Rangers. Hearts, and the rest of Scottish football, would be much better placed without them, thank you very much."

This concept that Rangers will simply disappear is one that people need to rethink. It doesn't matter who would be better without Rangers, they, in one form or another, will continue to exist.

[newbie]

Sorry, not buying Newbie's contribution. I have no problem with the Herald advert or even with most of the arguments in Newbie's post. But it just reads too much like a well prepared follow up to the Herald advert to ring true. Apologies if I am way out.

 

I'll take the "well prepared" comment as a compliment.

 

ps, you're way out.

[Francis Albert]

In my estimation, the football authorities making known that the new club is not the old club would be the first stage in the recovery process for Scottish football, much in the same way that an alcoholic isn't going to help himself until he admits he has a problem. Rangers fans and club are never going to concede their old club was liquidated because it doesn't fit in with the sense of entitlement and superiority they've developed. Their world record number of league titles would be under threat and preserving this is critical to them. Nobody is expecting them to disappear, in the sense that there will always be a form of Rangers, probably playing out of Ibrox in red, white and blue and watched by the same supporters. I don't have a problem with this, indeed I'd encourage it. What annoys me is that they think we should believe their history continues into the present when it clearly ended in 2012. What difference will it make to Hearts? That all depends. If the current guardians of our game are removed and replaced by people who don't solely subscribe to the theory that the Old Firm are the beginning and the end of Scottish football, we might see other clubs such as Hearts begin to flourish like Aberdeen, Dundee Utd, ICT, Hamilton etc. If this is Armageddon, bring it on!   

Do you think Celtic fans or Hearts fans would in similar circumstances react differently? Whatever the moral or legal niceties. I don't.

[Francis Albert]

I'll take the "well prepared" comment as a compliment.

 

ps, you're way out.

You shouldn't take it as a compliment. You've been a JKB member for over 5 years but your first ever posts are all to contest Hearts fans objections to the Herald advert? Come on.

[Barney Rubble]

You're clearly right IMO, waaaay too much of a coincidence for me to believe.

 

"Only Rangers need a strong Rangers. Hearts, and the rest of Scottish football, would be much better placed without them, thank you very much."

This concept that Rangers will simply disappear is one that people need to rethink. It doesn't matter who would be better without Rangers, they, in one form or another, will continue to exist.

 

Think we all know that theres going to be a rangers in some shape or form , what we don't want is the complicity of the SFA that went hand and hand with the old club and " appears " to be happening with this club , ie " the 5 way agreement , trying to force sevco into the premier and championship divisions and a lot more that we will never know "