The 2015 General Election Megathread

[HaymarketJambo]

They all had their chances in the past and delivered nothing.

 

Now they confined to the history books

 

You're spot on.  

[JAYEL]

I took up the challenge of providing a positive unionist Vision for Scotland. Gordon Brown is a political Giant IMO and history will reflect that. Scottish Labour has a mountain to climb but there is always  room at the top as they say. Every Journey starts with a single step. The SNP are not interested in any form of Devolution succeeding but the people are. There lies hope and opportunity.

 

You are coming out with some crackers tonight

 

[TheMaganator]

So the Tories introduce it, and Labour abstains thus avoiding its implementation. The cost of negating the cost of the Bedroom Tax was 53million which the SNP has to cover due to decisions made outwith their control. And you still blame the SNP? Where do they pluck the money from to negate..

 

Deary me.

They underspent their budget by ?444m that year.

 

They could have done something but chose not to.

 

They care about independence. The only way they'll get that is through stoking grudge and grievance.

 

And their supporters lap it up.

[Thunderstruck]

So the Tories introduce it, and Labour abstains thus avoiding its implementation. The cost of negating the cost of the Bedroom Tax was 53million which the SNP has to cover due to decisions made outwith their control. And you still blame the SNP? Where do they pluck the money from to negate..

 

Deary me.

They could have started with the ?1bn they took from NHS each and every year or, maybe, the ?444m kitty they were sitting on.

 

They are your party, why not ask your MP.

[Thunderstruck]

The SNP could give you 1million pound, and you'd still complain about the SNP at having to pay capital gains tax.

I can assure you, that if they did, I wouldn't be paying any CGT.

[TheMaganator]

Whats that? The tories have introduced another policy that impacts on the poor? Just whip 53million from the already allocated budget.

 

You make politics sound so easy.

It is that easy.

 

There were hundreds of millions in the Holyrood coffers that they chose not to spend

[TheMaganator]

I've only ever voted for one party, and it's never been the SNP.

 

I, unlike you and many others, have the ability to look reflectively and objectively at the political scenario shaping in Scotland concluding that the only party capable of running the country are currently in charge.

Yet they've presided over a FALL in literacy in our schools.

 

A fall in literacy FFS

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-32513792

[Thunderstruck]

I've only ever voted for one party, and it's never been the SNP.

 

I, unlike you and many others, have the ability to look reflectively and objectively at the political scenario shaping in Scotland concluding that the only party capable of running the country are currently in charge.

It seems you should, perhaps, look a little more closely.

[HaymarketJambo]

I took up the challenge of providing a positive unionist Vision for Scotland. Gordon Brown is a political Giant IMO and history will reflect that. Scottish Labour has a mountain to climb but there is always  room at the top as they say. Every Journey starts with a single step. The SNP are not interested in any form of Devolution succeeding but the people are. There lies hope and opportunity.

 

Was it not Lord George Robertson that once said that Devolution would kill the SNP stone dead? If that was the case that he once said that, what went wrong then?

 

The SNP have made devolution work, unlike the Labour/LibDems Government before them. 

[deesidejambo]

Was it not Lord George Robertson that once said that Devolution would kill the SNP stone dead? If that was the case that he once said that, what went wrong then?

 

The SNP have made devolution work, unlike the Labour/LibDems Government before them. 

 

Was it not Lord George Robertson that once said that Devolution would kill the SNP stone dead? If that was the case that he once said that, what went wrong then?

 

The SNP have made devolution work, unlike the Labour/LibDems Government before them. 

Their Named Person legislation will show the SNP up to be numpties who chase the popular vote without considering the implications.

[deesidejambo]

I looked very closely and didn't like what was on offer, was an easy decision in the end to switch support to the SNP. Myself and many more thousands made the same decision.

Luckily the majority of electorate are more thoughtful though.  SNP popularity is in the schemes of weeg and dundee, as a protest against the nasty Tories.    Luckily the rest of Scotland is more sensible.

[deesidejambo]

It's a great idea and will save many children's lives.

That confirms it.  You are in cloud-cuckoo land.   That legislation has no chance of being effective and will be pulled as people start to realise the implications and costs.

[Thunderstruck]

I looked very closely and didn't like what was on offer, was an easy decision in the end to switch support to the SNP. Myself and many more thousands made the same decision.

Apart from independence, what does the SNP offer?

 

Ask yourself which of their policies they had the power to tackle but, instead, shied away from action. Presumably, on the basis that "doing nothing means you can't be accused of making mistakes".

[HaymarketJambo]

Their Named Person legislation will show the SNP up to be numpties who chase the popular vote without considering the implications.

 

Will that's your option, but what I would say is a lot people vote for the SNP, that's why they are in Government in Holyrood and took 56 seats at the Westminster General Election in May.    

[deesidejambo]

The schemes that Labour presided over for 100 years. Look a bit closer to home.

Its a simple fact that the heartland of SNP support, as evidenced by the Indy results and the pre-referendum Polls, is in the Socio-DE population, those traditionally "we hate the Tory toffs" group.     Nicola did a good job with the "we will not be ruled by Tory toffs" slogan for these people, but the rest of the population are more able to judge the issues for themselves.

[deesidejambo]

You know much easier it would have made my job? We've done this to death.

 

It'll save lives, that's all that matters.

Yes indeed - all these people currently murdering children must be quaking in their shoes knowing a "Named Person" will protect the kids from danger.    

[jambos are go!]

Was it not Lord George Robertson that once said that Devolution would kill the SNP stone dead? If that was the case that he once said that, what went wrong then?

 

The SNP have made devolution work, unlike the Labour/LibDems Government before them.

 

If the SNP have made devolution work why are they pressing for Independence?

[deesidejambo]

Poor taste, awful context.

Yawn. you tell me then - how many lives will be saved?  How will this be achieved?      How will the "Named People" be identified?  Will they be paid?  By who?   What happens when they are ill or on holiday?  Do we then need reserve "Named People"?   What if the child in question is not happy with having someone monitor them?  What if the "Named Person" has other motives?  How do you guarantee the "Named Person" is not a paedo?  One mistake - one only, one "Named Person" being suspected of something, and the whole thing will be in tatters.

 

Its a ridiculous piece of legislation. The Tories will capitalise on it when it craters.  It just shows the SNP up as chasing populist policies that will be unworkable.

[JamboX2]

Labour/Tories/Liberals*

 

*Delete as appropriate, there's nothing distinguishable between them.

See I have a lot of time for many yes supporters, Green and SNP voting friends, some who actively campaigned for independence. Some who were fervent in their views and passionate about many more things than where power lies in Scotland.

 

But they'd never spout that pap which alienates many a potential future yes supporter. You do realise that statements like that are the negative, insular and narrow politics yes supporters, and yourself on here, say you oppose?

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

They oppose austerity, which in its own right, is enough for me.

 

Who else is a realistic option for governing Scotland?

Please describe this austerity to me because in terms of numbers, HMG is not cutting spending. They are cutting the rate of increase, which is different.

[JamboX2]

You know much easier it would have made my job? We've done this to death.

 

It'll save lives, that's all that matters.

You can't guarantee that.

 

From my perspective as a lawyer, it opens up potential liability to a host of people who may not have had that duty of care, or level of care before. Not only that but do all teachers or nursery nurses or doctors want the duty that this imposes?

 

You're right in a respect that it covers everyone and that it should therefore be a total safety net. But universality in this regard may rob resources which should otherwise be directed at the worst off and those most at need rather than those who are at less risk.

 

This is still a matter in which the courts are weighing up the legality of it as a law in terms of the European Convention Right to privacy. A human right for us all. And are also weighing up whether it an appropriate law based on it being a proportionate and reasonable policy. Let's see if it needs amending on that basis before we say in implementation it will be a success or not.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

The reduction to public expenditure to counter the 'economic downturn'. No figures to hand.

 

Quick look at Ian Duncan Smith, and the DWP will show that spending is being cut, not just simply the rate of increase(s).

But that's the point. The UK still runs a massive public sector deficit, which is not being "austere" even though the rhetoric says they are. It's how they spend that deficit that should be in dispute. Fighting "austerity" is equally as meaningless.

[Sraman]

The reduction to public expenditure to counter the 'economic downturn'. No figures to hand.

 

Quick look at Ian Duncan Smith, and the DWP will show that spending is being cut, not just simply the rate of increase(s).

 

Herr Smith, such a lovely man.

 

It's good to see that the Unionists still don't get it. "The SNP are only interested in Independence and their supporters lap it up". Of course we do, as that is what the SNP are here for, what else would they stand for? Yet you claim that we are the fools.

 

I notice a lot of Unionists sharing posts, on that bastion of intelligence that is Facebook, from a page called Smash the SNP, I agree we need to get rid of the SNP and the only way to do that is by gaining independence. They won't go away until that fight has been won folks.

[Thunderstruck]

The reduction to public expenditure to counter the 'economic downturn'. No figures to hand.

 

Quick look at Ian Duncan Smith, and the DWP will show that spending is being cut, not just simply the rate of increase(s).

Public spending went over ?600 billion in 2009, reached ?700 billion in 2014, this year's outturn is predicted as ?748 billion and it is anticipated that next year will be ?760 billion.

 

That is a ?160 billion increase (getting on for 30%) during the term of the Conservative Government with a pro rata increase for Scotland through the "consequentials".

 

Not, I would suggest, "austerity".

[JamboX2]

That's the political landscape that we face. There is little difference between those parties.

 

Why would a potential Yes voter be offended by that? They'd be potentially supporting Yes as a result of their despondency with what was on offer.

Nonsense. The SNP are not a radical shift in policy or in how a party operates. The SNP manifesto of 2015 was near identical to the Labour Party. Tax and the economy were very similar. Foreign affairs again very alike. Even a comparison with the Liberal commitment to personal rights and the constitution is apt. The SNP even oppose ever further Union in Europe like the Tories and their commitment to the free market over exploring public ownership models like Labour were willing to in housing and the railways shows an adherence to the third way, neoliberalism of old by the SNP like the others.

 

Their manifesto when reviewed wasn't a fresh start. Nor was the White Paper a blueprint for a nation any different than now.

 

So your assertion of them offering a new way and fresh politics isn't really shown by the reality of their policies. They didn't offer a break with despondency. To me, the offer wasn't a break of direction in economics and culture and society, it was the same but run solely in Scotland.

 

You also fail to actually accept a simple fact, not everyone who votes yes or may vote yes in future are natural bedfellows of the SNP. There are Greens, SSP, Solidarity, Labour, Tory, Liberals and groups like the RiC, Business for Yes and many more which contained people who may not actually want to vote SNP but backed independence. Some Tories I know viewed it a good chance to refresh conservatism in Scotland as the reality (to them) would dawn on many people that a low tax economy with a smaller state would be more appealing in an independent Scotland than one in union. Patrick Harvie withdrew the Green Party from Yes Scotland and rejoined on assurances they'd be given space and freedom on policy rather than follow SNP policy.

 

I think Boris alluded to this in a good post earlier that Yes does not and never should equate with solely the SNP. If it does then it's not a movement for independence or a new democracy but a vote for the SNP and its vision of Scotland. Independence or the Union isn't and shouldn't be shaped by one party or a number of parties. But by the people as a whole.

 

Id argue Better Together was a shit campaign, as was Yes Scotland. But the BT mob actually had differences in views on what the union was to each party. For the Liberals a federation of equal nations, peoples and communities, for Labour a union of equals underpinned by common values, rights and benefits and for the Tories a predominantly economic union which had a stronger voice internationally as one than as many. Those are different views and all were voiced. Yes Scotland became the voice of the SNP and drowned out the variety and plurality it should've had.

 

Because of that we now have an SNP party which views itself as the monopoly on independence. It's not and never should be.

Edited August 24, 2015 by JamboX2

[AlphonseCapone]

Only convincing 10/15% of the population after a 2/3 year campaign with all the money they could spend, a majority government setting the agenda in Holyrood, an unpopular Tory led government in Westminster and an army of foot soldiers to campaign for them is not a success.

 

They could have won the thing had they campaigned better and actually thought about the mechanics of being independent.

Having run a poor campaign they still managed to convince 10/15% of the populace to vote in favour of finishing the union. Worrying if you are a unionist surely.

[AlphonseCapone]

Sorry to burst your bubble but, on the same measure, the Referendum polled 37% in favour.

I don't have a bubble but if I did, it certainly wouldn't be burst by you picking and choosing whatever figures suits your agenda.

[aussieh]

Herr Smith, such a lovely man.

 

It's good to see that the Unionists still don't get it. "The SNP are only interested in Independence and their supporters lap it up". Of course we do, as that is what the SNP are here for, what else would they stand for? Yet you claim that we are the fools.

 

I notice a lot of Unionists sharing posts, on that bastion of intelligence that is Facebook, from a page called Smash the SNP, I agree we need to get rid of the SNP and the only way to do that is by gaining independence. They won't go away until that fight has been won folks.

Exactly, well said.

As for the FB thing, it doesnt surprise me.

Lead by the you know who.

[jambos are go!]

So, if the SNP are Labour in all but name, why would 1000's flock to their party. People are energised because they are different from the rest of the parties. You know what C/L/LD will offer, their policies are all similar whereas SNP offer a fresh outlook. This includes the other parties that were pro-independence too.

To offer proof that there is little between the parties, have you witness how they have voting of late? The L/D are a fractured force so have been unable to offer opposition but Labour have went against their original mantra of social justice and supported the Tories with some of the most brutal policies in recent years.

Can I remind you that the SNP manifesto at the GE was widely criticised as being cloned from the Labour manifesto. Is that a fresh outlook?

[HaymarketJambo]

If the SNP have made devolution work why are they pressing for Independence?

 

The SNP believe in Independence for Scotland, that's for the SNP stand for.

[TheMaganator]

So, if the SNP are Labour in all but name, why would 1000's flock to their party. People are energised because they are different from the rest of the parties. 

Simply, because these people are just believing soundbites.

[TheMaganator]

The SNP believe in Independence for Scotland, that's for the SNP stand for.

and in the meantime, when they are, you know, meant to be governing, what are they for?

 

They are a right of center party that has convinced their supporters that they are socialist. 

[jambos are go!]

The SNP believe in Independence for Scotland, that's for the SNP stand for.

And the electorate should never forget that!!

[HaymarketJambo]

and in the meantime, when they are, you know, meant to be governing, what are they for?

 

They are a right of center party that has convinced their supporters that they are socialist. 

 

That's the great thing about the SNP they appeal to all.

 

That's why they are in power in Holyrood and have so many MP's at Westminster.   

[HaymarketJambo]

And the electorate should never forget that!!

 

The Scottish electorate know what the SNP stand for.  

[Boris]

and in the meantime, when they are, you know, meant to be governing, what are they for?

 

They are a right of center party that has convinced their supporters that they are socialist. 

 

I'd say they are more centre, than centre right, but they still do not challenge the economic status quo.

 

It may be, though, that in the future the SNP will have to swing left simply because that's where all these new members wish them to be.  Also, should Corbyn win, they would have to match (at least) his economic rhetoric.

[pablo]

I'd say they are more centre, than centre right, but they still do not challenge the economic status quo.

 

It may be, though, that in the future the SNP will have to swing left simply because that's where all these new members wish them to be. Also, should Corbyn win, they would have to match (at least) his economic rhetoric.

Do you think that the scenario you've described makes it impossible for the Nationalists to enjoy their current level of support? Edited August 25, 2015 by pablo

[jambos are go!]

The Scottish electorate know what the SNP stand for.  

And the Scottish electorate clearly rejected Independence less that a year ago. 

[HaymarketJambo]

 

And the Scottish electorate clearly rejected Independence less that a year ago. 

 

Your correct they did reject independence less than year ago, and I accept that.

 

But I hope you would agree with me that the Better Together Parties got completely thrashed by the SNP in the British General Election in May a few months after wining the Indy vote, also the Better Together Parties have been losing local elections as well.     

[Boris]

Do you think that the scenario you've described makes it impossible for the Nationalists to enjoy their current level of support?

 

No, I'm sure the Nationalists are loving it!  I'm not so sure how far into the future they are looking, tbh.

 

But, and it's only my speculation, but I think that there is an element to the new members of the SNP post referendum that has fallen for this SNP = socialist.  Perhaps you may see a split a la Labour & Corbyn in the future.  But at least that conversation is being had.

 

As I've stated on numerous occasions, the SNP government must be held to account.  That is the job of the opposition parties.  They aren't doing that very well, or, people aren't listening to them if we use recent polls as evidence.

 

Perhaps it is just that the electorate see the SNP as the best choice?  I doubt many would wish to see the Tories in power at Holyrood and given the way Labour acted at the referendum and then subsequently Miliband's anaemic leadership and campaign for the last Westminster election, I can understand why people have stopped voting Labour.

 

But I do think both sides need to look at things in isolation.  Berate the SNP Government at Holyrood, point out its failings but this is not an argument against independence.

 

Equally, if you laud the SNP Government, this is not an endorsement of independence either.

 

In a post independence Scotland, all the parties would be starting from scratch, each attempting to woo the electorate.

 

As it stands now, if there was a referendum tomorrow I'd still vote YES, but I'm not sure the result would differ that much from last year.  The SNP who have benefited from an influx in members as a result of the referendum now tread a fine line between realpolitik and keeping those new members onside.  As much as I quite liked Alex Salmond, Sturgeon seems a more steady leader.  Less likely to make a gaff or come across as a pompous arse.  That will hold the SNP in good stead for a wee while yet.

[jambos are go!]

Your correct they did reject independence less than year ago, and I accept that.

 

But I hope you would agree with me that the Better Together Parties got completely thrashed by the SNP in the British General Election in May a few months after wining the Indy vote, also the Better Together Parties have been losing local elections as well.

 

Better Together was disbanded and parties campaigned in their own name. Same on the YES side. Using your Logic you could say that Labour and the Tories trounced the Greens in the GE. Getting just under 50% of the vote is far from a thrashing.

[HaymarketJambo]

Better Together was disbanded and parties campaigned in their own name. Same on the YES side. Using your Logic you could say that Labour and the Tories trounced the Greens in the GE. Getting just under 50% of the vote is far from a thrashing.

 

Fine of we will use the result for after the Indy vote in September in which the Better Together won which we agree on. 

 

The 2015 (May) General Result (Scotland) - Labour 1 seat - Conservatives 1 Seat - LibDems 1 Seat - The Scottish National Party 56 Seats. Who won then?

[pablo]

Surely if Labour moves to the Left it will recapture an element of support currently backing the SNP, and should the SNP mirror Labour they'll create a vacum to be filled by the Liberals (and perhaps Tories) as it'll isolate their centre right support. 

[Boris]

Surely if Labour moves to the Left it will recapture an element of support currently backing the SNP, and should the SNP mirror Labour they'll create a vacum to be filled by the Liberals (and perhaps Tories) as it'll isolate their centre right support. 

 

I guess that depends on how big a centre-right support the SNP have.  I suspect that it isn't as big as it once was.  I also don't think that the a Corbyn Labour will be that left at all.  It will merely be centre-left, but the right wing media will tell us all that it is "hard" left.

 

Fun times ahead though!

[Boris]

How long do you think Corbyn will last? Serious question.

 

Will he still be in charge come the next GE? I honestly don't think the poor bloke will make it past a year.

 

If he is elected as leader, and then subsequently removed, then that's Labour finished, IMO.

[aussieh]

That's where I'm at. 100k signed up just to nominate him as leader, it seems. That aligned with the trade unions supporting him, any forceful removal would be their death knell.

Mrs Balls will defect to her rightful party.

[The Mighty Thor]

They underspent their budget by ?444m that year.

 

They could have done something but chose not to.

 

They care about independence. The only way they'll get that is through stoking grudge and grievance.

 

And their supporters lap it up.

Thais one has been put to bed already.

 

Yes there was a budget underspend but this only comes to light at the year end when departments report back on their budgets. Same with the Westminster government. This therefore makes re-allocating already allocated funds during that year impossible. Even to cover the spiteful taxes of a socially destructive party of government.

 

We'll call this one a swing and a miss.

[pablo]

Thais one has been put to bed already.

 

Yes there was a budget underspend but this only comes to light at the year end when departments report back on their budgets. Same with the Westminster government. This therefore makes re-allocating already allocated funds during that year impossible. Even to cover the spiteful taxes of a socially destructive party of government.

 

We'll call this one a swing and a miss.

I can understand why you would want to call it that. But public services could have been better funded by the best part of half a billion pounds. Yes? The largest understand I believe came in Education. We're underperforming here and doing our children a disservice.

 

Are you people incapable of ever admitting the SNP get anything even slightly wrong?

[Boris]

I can understand why you would want to call it that. But public services could have been better funded by the best part of half a billion pounds. Yes? The largest understand I believe came in Education. We're underperforming here and doing our children a disservice.

 

Are you people incapable of ever admitting the SNP get anything even slightly wrong?

 

It's like my work.  Each department get's it's budget.  The fund stuff throughout the year at at the year end a massive splurge so money remains the same the next year.

 

Councils do it every year too, so it's not unique to this SNP government.  The other side is all the money gets spent quickly, then the clouds gather comes and there are no funds for that rainy day.

 

That said, and I would say this for my work, councils etc, there should be be better financial management throughout the year to make sure funds are spent in plenty of time to be most effective.

[Cade]

SNP come in under budget = ruining the nation

 

Conservatives double the national debt = saving the nation