Victorian Posted April 24, 2015 Posted April 24, 2015 Nobody is disputing your first line. That doesn't mean that they are not working towards that. You know it, I know it, the rest of the glorious 45 know it. Of course they are. It will be a strange day when they decide to drop the issue from their philosophy and declare they are unionist. They now say they want to bring a progressive, concensus based politics to Westminster. They have stated that they will not wreak the merry hell being 'predicted' by people like Major. There is every reason to believe this because there is much to be gained from performing a productive role at Westminster. Enhanced credentials as a serious party of government, hopefully leading to an extended stay at Bute House. By far the best chance to win any future referendum is within the term from 2016 through to around 2023. Leaving it too much longer after that risks a generational shift away from the high stock of 45% support. The marked surge in election based support the party now enjoys may well be enough to tip the balance over 50% but it wont last forever.
IMac Posted April 24, 2015 Posted April 24, 2015 Of course they are. It will be a strange day when they decide to drop the issue from their philosophy and declare they are unionist. They now say they want to bring a progressive, concensus based politics to Westminster. They have stated that they will not wreak the merry hell being 'predicted' by people like Major. There is every reason to believe this because there is much to be gained from performing a productive role at Westminster. Enhanced credentials as a serious party of government, hopefully leading to an extended stay at Bute House. By far the best chance to win any future referendum is within the term from 2016 through to around 2023. Leaving it too much longer after that risks a generational shift away from the high stock of 45% support. The marked surge in election based support the party now enjoys may well be enough to tip the balance over 50% but it wont last forever. very rarely do parties maintain peak support for more than 10-12 years. If they want it to happen they will have to do it in the next scot parliament. The rot will set in as it always does.
TheMaganator Posted April 24, 2015 Posted April 24, 2015 Of course they are. It will be a strange day when they decide to drop the issue from their philosophy and declare they are unionist. They now say they want to bring a progressive, concensus based politics to Westminster. They have stated that they will not wreak the merry hell being 'predicted' by people like Major. There is every reason to believe this because there is much to be gained from performing a productive role at Westminster. Enhanced credentials as a serious party of government, hopefully leading to an extended stay at Bute House. By far the best chance to win any future referendum is within the term from 2016 through to around 2023. Leaving it too much longer after that risks a generational shift away from the high stock of 45% support. The marked surge in election based support the party now enjoys may well be enough to tip the balance over 50% but it wont last forever. Exactly - they need to strike whilst the iron is hot. It'll be on their 2016 manifesto - they will not want to lose momentum. It is a very live and very real issue and people are right to talk about it in the context of this election and the one in 2016
IMac Posted April 24, 2015 Posted April 24, 2015 Exactly - they need to strike whilst the iron is hot. It'll be on their 2016 manifesto - they will not want to lose momentum. It is a very live and very real issue and people are right to talk about it in the context of this election and the one in 2016 Going way off topic... maybe we need a ref2 thread. but I think we should discuss 50+1. Ever region of scotland would need to be in favour otherwise what is stopping the east ex dundee and the islands staying in the union... a yes vote must be decisive not 50+1 in my opinion.
Thunderstruck Posted April 24, 2015 Posted April 24, 2015 A majority of seats will be enough. They didn't have a majority of votes in 2011 but had a majority of seats. The party in power may not be the popular choice - but with a majority of seats they can vote through what they want. Indeed. But would they include a Ref commitment if it might put at risk a majority. There's a chicken and egg in there somewhere. In any case, I would have thought that coherent and costed plans for how an independent country might fund and manage itself might be a good start to proceedings.
Victorian Posted April 24, 2015 Posted April 24, 2015 But.. Nicola Sturgeon has also stated that some significant change will be required to legitimise an independence bill reappearing in future manifestos. Some will always insist that the SNP will find any small grievance to justify it but that's by no means certain. There's no point jumping at the first tenuous chance, risking rejection, only to find later on that a much better and more credible change in circumstance presents itself after it's too late. Close care will be needed.
TheMaganator Posted April 24, 2015 Posted April 24, 2015 But.. Nicola Sturgeon has also stated that some significant change will be required to legitimise an independence bill reappearing in future manifestos. Some will always insist that the SNP will find any small grievance to justify it but that's by no means certain. There's no point jumping at the first tenuous chance, risking rejection, only to find later on that a much better and more credible change in circumstance presents itself after it's too late. Close care will be needed. I think she may face revolt if it isn't in the 2016 manifesto. If it isnt in there the 45 will have 4/5 years to wait before they get a chance again even for it to be on the table - and I simply do not think they will be that patient.
SE16 3LN Posted April 24, 2015 Posted April 24, 2015 It would appear that there are people voting SNP who don't want independence? Is this true?
Victorian Posted April 24, 2015 Posted April 24, 2015 I think she may face revolt if it isn't in the 2016 manifesto. If it isnt in there the 45 will have 4/5 years to wait before they get a chance again even for it to be on the table - and I simply do not think they will be that patient. Yep. You can also easily argue that it would be automatically unconstitutional of sorts of the SNP to exlude the explicit aim of independence from any Holyrood manifesto. I think it will be there but with an opt out - opt in get out clause based around the 'significant change of circumstances' theme. Even if it's too soon with no particular change of circumstances, they will need to have the issue present in the manifesto in order to satisfy all quarters of their support. An SNP not actively working for independence loses legitimacy.
Boab Posted April 24, 2015 Posted April 24, 2015 It would appear that there are people voting SNP who don't want independence? Is this true? Of course, just like the referendum when many, many people voted Yes and weren't SNP voters.
TheMaganator Posted April 24, 2015 Posted April 24, 2015 It would appear that there are people voting SNP who don't want independence? Is this true? That certainly happened in 2011. I am fairly certain that after the referendum the only people voting SNP will be those who want independence or some form of reform of the UK
jambo1185 Posted April 24, 2015 Posted April 24, 2015 Labour suspend Banff and Buchan candidate for driving offences. Will be on the ballot paper but all support removed. Good to see Kez getting her house in order like Nicky asked.
aussieh Posted April 24, 2015 Posted April 24, 2015 Ah well shite happensSo youre saying its ok, interesting...
SE16 3LN Posted April 24, 2015 Posted April 24, 2015 Of course, just like the referendum when many, many people voted Yes and weren't SNP voters. It's like voting Tory to save the NHS
Thunderstruck Posted April 24, 2015 Posted April 24, 2015 It's like voting Tory to save the NHS I'm sure you can give us the comparative spending on NHS for the past 5 years both North and South of the border.
Stuart Lyon Posted April 24, 2015 Posted April 24, 2015 Thunderstruck - he won't as it doesn't show the SNP in a good light. Of course it will be someone else's fault that they underspent on the NHS!
Boab Posted April 24, 2015 Posted April 24, 2015 It's like voting Tory to save the NHS No, voting Tory is voting for a party. No one on Sept 18th voted for a party.
leginten Posted April 24, 2015 Posted April 24, 2015 That certainly happened in 2011. I am fairly certain that after the referendum the only people voting SNP will be those who want independence or some form of reform of the UK Perhaps there are many people who vote SNP who regard them as being less incompetent and corrupt than Labour, the only other party capable of forming a government in Scotland. It's perfectly possible for that allegiance to extend to voting SNP in a Westminster election.
aussieh Posted April 24, 2015 Posted April 24, 2015 To be fair, one of those 'dicks' (not that I think he is, personally) is the former leader of the SNP and still very much a public face of the party. In fact, he is the Greatest Living Scotsman according to someone here.
Nookie Bear Posted April 24, 2015 Posted April 24, 2015 So youre saying its ok, interesting... No I'm showing how irritating it is when someone replies like that. Learn, boy.
SE16 3LN Posted April 24, 2015 Posted April 24, 2015 No, voting Tory is voting for a party. No one on Sept 18th voted for a party. I think you're confused. I didn't mention September 18th.
SE16 3LN Posted April 24, 2015 Posted April 24, 2015 I'm sure you can give us the comparative spending on NHS for the past 5 years both North and South of the border. Sadly I can and it doesn't make good reading for the UK Govt. but even worse for the Scottish Government.
aussieh Posted April 24, 2015 Posted April 24, 2015 No I'm showing how irritating it is when someone replies like that. Learn, boy. Boy, Cheers.
aussieh Posted April 24, 2015 Posted April 24, 2015 TUSC does anyone think theyll take hold, quite like the sound of them, but dont know enough about them.
Victorian Posted April 24, 2015 Posted April 24, 2015 TUSC does anyone think theyll take hold, quite like the sound of them, but dont know enough about them. A vanity and self serving project. Spouting a range of wild, un-costed, undeliverable, ludicrous, wired to the moon policies. A ragtag gaggle of disenfranchised trade union full time branch officers and career activists. Most probably have a bookshelf each full of Marxist propaganda. The latest iteration of total wasters like Tommy Sheridan and the SSP, etc.
Thunderstruck Posted April 24, 2015 Posted April 24, 2015 Sadly I can and it doesn't make good reading for the UK Govt. but even worse for the Scottish Government. Particularly sad given that NHS is already devolved to Scotland and supported by Barnett payments. It is also ironic that the self-proclaimed saviours of the NHS in Scotland had overseen its descent into crisis before seeing the value of stepping into Ed's shoes and "weaponising" IT for the Referendum.
Boab Posted April 24, 2015 Posted April 24, 2015 I think you're confused. I didn't mention September 18th. You were comparing my comment about the referendum with some Tory/NHS analogy. You're right I'm confused...and perplexed ffs.
Boab Posted April 24, 2015 Posted April 24, 2015 A vanity and self serving project. Spouting a range of wild, un-costed, undeliverable, ludicrous, wired to the moon policies. A ragtag gaggle of disenfranchised trade union full time branch officers and career activists. Most probably have a bookshelf each full of Marxist propaganda. The latest iteration of total wasters like Tommy Sheridan and the SSP, etc. So you're not a fan.....?
IMac Posted April 24, 2015 Posted April 24, 2015 A vanity and self serving project. Spouting a range of wild, un-costed, undeliverable, ludicrous, wired to the moon policies. A ragtag gaggle of disenfranchised trade union full time branch officers and career activists. Most probably have a bookshelf each full of Marxist propaganda. The latest iteration of total wasters like Tommy Sheridan and the SSP, etc. Sound like anyone else?
Cade Posted April 24, 2015 Posted April 24, 2015 Why are UKip called UKip, more like Eip Quite the opposite, they want to abolish the Scottish Parliament and go around re-forming the entire British Empire, the fecking loons.
Dusk_Till_Dawn Posted April 24, 2015 Posted April 24, 2015 I never mentioned that. I voted Labour when I resided in Edinburgh, and then again when I moved to Leeds for University. The negative actions portrayed by the party resulted in me deciding that SNP would be the party I would vote for if I could. It was an easy decision in the end after carrying out my own research online. I can't blame some of the SNP supporters with their supposed 'abuse'. They're attacked from all quarters, the media reporting has been nothing short of scandalous. However, I recognise that some of the abuse is in bad taste and will acknowledge this whereas you cannot. I read a crude tweet today about sexual assault and Nicola Sturgeon, will there be a four-page-spread tomorrow in the MSM? Depends who tweeted it. Who tweeted it?
Rand Paul's Ray Bans Posted April 24, 2015 Author Posted April 24, 2015 But that is what Mags is saying....there is nothing in this manifesto but there could be in 2016. They are no mugs....the 2016 manifesto could be released weeks before the election. By that time they will know what way the wind is blowing. Put it this way, if they destroy Labour in a couple of weeks the "I" word will jump up like a rabbit out a hat. And that's exactly what I'm saying! This election isn't about the past or a future referendum; the next Holyrood election might be. Talk of the previous referendum or a possible future one is really a sideshow, and dilutes and devalues actual debate about parties' visions and policies for the next five years of Britain.
IMac Posted April 24, 2015 Posted April 24, 2015 And that's exactly what I'm saying! This election isn't about the past or a future referendum; the next Holyrood election might be. Talk of the previous referendum or a possible future one is really a sideshow, and dilutes and devalues actual debate about parties' visions and policies for the next five years of Britain. agreed. the lack of debate on issues beyond public spending cuts has been very disappointing. even on this thread no matter what points are mentioned it all comes back to independence but I suppose that is bound to happen with a separatist party leading in the polls.
RosscoC Posted April 25, 2015 Posted April 25, 2015 Exactly - they need to strike whilst the iron is hot. It'll be on their 2016 manifesto - they will not want to lose momentum. It is a very live and very real issue and people are right to talk about it in the context of this election and the one in 2016It seems to be all you want to talk about. Ever.
SE16 3LN Posted April 25, 2015 Posted April 25, 2015 You were comparing my comment about the referendum with some Tory/NHS analogy. You're right I'm confused...and perplexed ffs. I don't think I was...I'm always perplexed and a bit bewildered.
Boab Posted April 25, 2015 Posted April 25, 2015 I don't think I was...I'm always perplexed and a bit bewildered. Ach, we'll leave it there, mate. To be fair, sometimes these threads leave me discombobulated.
jambo1185 Posted April 25, 2015 Posted April 25, 2015 Sheridans freedom rally in George Square is absolutely tragic. I suspect Sturgeon won't be popping round the corner from her speech on Buchanan Street.
Gorgiewave Posted April 25, 2015 Posted April 25, 2015 Neil Hay worked for a company helping people avoid tax but that's OK because he didn't inhale: http://www.scotsman.com/news/uk/pressure-mounts-on-neil-hay-over-cv-revelation-1-3754294
flecktimus Posted April 25, 2015 Posted April 25, 2015 Neil Hay worked for a company helping people legally avoid tax but that's OK because he didn't inhale: http://www.scotsman.com/news/uk/pressure-mounts-on-neil-hay-over-cv-revelation-1-3754294 Fixed that for you. Looks like Mr Murray has good friends at Johnson Press.
flecktimus Posted April 25, 2015 Posted April 25, 2015 This is what a proper political crowd looks like Mr Murphy http://news.channel4.com/election2015/04/25/update-3967/
TheMaganator Posted April 25, 2015 Posted April 25, 2015 Fixed that for you. Looks like Mr Murray has good friends at Johnson Press. All tax avoidance is legal. Unfortunately it doesn't matter what this guy is, does or says. He'll get voted in because of nationalism.
TheMaganator Posted April 25, 2015 Posted April 25, 2015 "It must be the first time in recorded history that the ?anti-austerity? party is proposing longer, deeper cuts than the ?pro-austerity? parties, as demonstrated by the detailed analysis of manifestos published this week by the Institute for Fiscal Studies (IFS)." http://m.scotsman.com/news/brian-wilson-calling-the-snp-s-bluff-on-austerity-1-3754085
Gorgiewave Posted April 25, 2015 Posted April 25, 2015 "It must be the first time in recorded history that the ?anti-austerity? party is proposing longer, deeper cuts than the ?pro-austerity? parties, as demonstrated by the detailed analysis of manifestos published this week by the Institute for Fiscal Studies (IFS)." http://m.scotsman.com/news/brian-wilson-calling-the-snp-s-bluff-on-austerity-1-3754085 Brian Wilson has been about the best hammerer of the Nats.
2NaFish Posted April 25, 2015 Posted April 25, 2015 Brian Wilson has been about the best hammerer of the Nats. The proverbial midget amongst dwarves, then.
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