Veganism

[Gorgiewave]

This could be good....CL's knowledge based stuff * versus GW's ML** style copy n paste

 

 

*as displayed in the fitness thread

 

**as displayed above

 

I'm not a doctor or scientist and refer to doctors and scientists for this information. Creepy Lurker is, as far as I know, a student of French. Is he an authority? Is he just pleased he can spot fallacies? Has he cited a single source or just made a bald assertion?

[Creepy Lurker]

 

 

The health benefits of protective compounds in a plant-based diet have been linked to the prevention of cancer initiation and the retardation of cancer cell growth. Foods that are central to vegetarian diets such as whole grains, legumes, fruits, and vegetables are rich in fiber, folic acid, phytochemicals, and antioxidants.^[92?95]

In addition to the cancer-protective effect of a plant-based diet, eating red meat may contribute to cancer formation. The consumption of red meat cooked at high temperatures, diets rich in animal fat and cholesterol, or diets high in animal protein may increase the risk of developing cancer.^[99] Excessive iron is also thought to promote the formation of reactive species of free radicals that can damage cells.^{Table 1), the issue remains contentious and requires further research.}

 

^{The first highlighted sentence indicates positive benefits of plant-based nutrition. Obviously, meat-eaters might eat all these things, though they will automatically increase their calorie intake in doing so.}

 

^{The second highlighted sentence summarises positively negative aspects of meat.}

 

^{Similar points appear in other paragraphs.}

 

^{As I said in the OP, it is possible to eat badly on a vegan diet: fizzy juice, crisps, alcohol, dark chocolate, bread, etc., are all vegan. A health-conscious vegan will eat carefully. A no-animal-product vegan might not.}

 

^{http://www.medscape....rticle/763435_2}

 

 

This really is a holocaust of a post.

 

What do I say to you? All the studies used in favour of veganism come from epidemiological research. What do you come back with? Epidimiological research.

 

Just look at the terminology used in your two highlighted paragraphs, ffs.

 

'Linked'

'May increase the risk'

 

Why do you think they're using these terms? Because all that has been shown is correlation, which doesn't equal causation. Basically, you've responded to me with the exact kind of research I've just dismissed.

 

Meat eaters 'will automatically increase their caloric intake' by eating plant based foods? What kind of idiotic statement is that? We aren't talking about people with a diet consisting of 100% meat here.

 

Then you say that vegans 'can still eat badly' like that refutes anything I said. Obviously they can, but as a group they're less likely to than meat eaters as they've already made a conscious choice to make what they normally consider to be a healthy change.

 

You also included bread on your list of 'bad' foods. Wut?

 

As an aside, the studies on red meat consumption have strengths and weaknesses. I'm on the fence there, but even where the research is strong it can only be applied to excessive consumption. Excessive consumption =/= consumption. It also mentions high temperatures, which is relevant in itself as burning/charring foods increases their content of carcinogenic compounds in itself.

[Konrad von Carstein]

I'm not going to lie, I don't give a hoot either way, BUT, CL is acknowledged on the fitness thread to know what he is talking about - you appear to be impressed by Bill Clinton unless I've skim read this thread!

 

 

You'll be too busy responding to his post above to bother with mine...result!

[Ribble]

There is a moral aspect to it for me

 

As a 'morality vegan' how do you deal with the fact that you generally have no idea if bone meal fertilisers have been used on the vegetables you eat? Have you also started buying Vegan soap and shampoo's? The supplements you take, are those free of animal derived acetate? Have you ruled out Sugar cane as Bone Charcoal can be used in the refining process? Do you have feather down pillows? Stopped all sweets with Gelatin? Stopped driving due to animal fat based glycerin being used in brake fluid? No worries about diabetes I hope, wouldn't want you to have to use an animal based insulin? In fact best rule out most pharmaceuticals, wouldn't want you taking animal lactic acid by accident, oh and that also rules out sauerkraut, pickles and anything else created by bacterial fermentation i.e beer!

[Creepy Lurker]

 

 

I'm not a doctor or scientist and refer to doctors and scientists for this information. Creepy Lurker is, as far as I know, a student of French. Is he an authority? Is he just pleased he can spot fallacies? Has he cited a single source or just made a bald assertion?

 

Correction: you cherrypick articles which you think back up the position you've already decided is correct.

 

I don't have sources to hand as I'm posting from my phone, but it's irrelevant here as the burden of proof is on you and all that you've come up with has been anecdotal evidence and correlational data.

 

I'm studying French and History, but have read pretty extensively on nutrition; extensively enough, certainly, to frame an argument without resorting to copy and paste hack jobs. Why is any of this relevant? Do you think that you're the only person ever to have read the work of 'doctors and scientists'? Do you even think that a consensus exists within the scientific community anyway? Get over yourself.

 

You're one of these sanctimonious 'just turned vegan and wanting to lecture everyone else despite knowing nothing about nutrition' types, and it's sort of tiresome.

[Gorgiewave]

Ribble, I said nothing about animal rights.

 

Creepy Lurker: are all epidemiological studies out? Have you watched the Caldwell Esselstyn video? Is it epidemiological rubbish?

[Patrick Bateman]

I don't think so.

 

[Ribble]

Ribble, I said nothing about animal rights.

 

Creepy Lurker: are all epidemiological studies out? Have you watched the Caldwell Esselstyn video? Is it epidemiological rubbish?

 

So just cherrypicking what parts of veganism you want to live by? Fair enough, enjoy being vegan 'lite'!

[FWJ]

 

 

 

Vitamin B12 is not found in plants. It's better to take a supplement than eat all the meat it would take.

 

 

Vitamin B12 is not found in plants. It's better to take a supplement than eat all the meat it would take.

Is it? How much meat do you have to eat to get the recommended daily amount of B12?

 

If I remember right it's only a couple of ounces.

 

I'm not having a go at you, it's your choice - but I always think the hoops that you have to jump through make veganism a very contrived diet.

 

[Creepy Lurker]

Ribble, I said nothing about animal rights.

 

Creepy Lurker: are all epidemiological studies out? Have you watched the Caldwell Esselstyn video? Is it epidemiological rubbish?

 

Epidemiological studies don' t prove causation; indeed, they aren't even supposed to. On that basis, if they're all that you can come up with then they are.

 

Your use of the phrase 'epidemiological rubbish' implies a lack of understanding of what I'm getting at here. Epidemiological data isn't rubbish, but it doesn't prove anything on its own as by its very definition it doesn't take a lot of variables into account. At best, it can provide a basis for further research.

 

Veganism is a controversial topic in which many powerful parties have had vested interests for a long time. Why does only epidemiological research seem to say anything either for or against it? Because it isn't better...or worse. If it was inferior to an omnivorous diet, you can bet your bottom dollar that the meat industry would've made that known.

 

Finally, I haven't watched the video and don't really intend to as it's late, the thumbnail makes it look crap and nothing you've posted so far lead me to believe it'd be worthwhile. I might watch it tomorrow at some point if you're that bothered about it, but for now I'm off to bed.

 

As an aside, it's interesting how often people who are full of the wonders of their new diet- be it low carb, fasting, vegan or whatever else - seem to suffer from crazy mood swings.

[dobmisterdobster]

If our ancestors decided to be vegan, we'd still be living in caves and picking lice out each others hair.

 

With the evolution of humans came the evolution of farming.

There are now plenty of sources of protein that don't involve consuming meat.

 

What's wrong with having a steak with your red pepper hummus?

 

Nowt wrong with that if that's what you enjoy.

[Gorgiewave]

The video is good, Creepy Lurker, and worth the time.

 

I know that "correlation is not a cause" but they are a flag for further attention. The details I quoted are attempts at explaining the specifics. The video does the same and provides explanations of why meat and oils are harmful, not just correlations that might be coincidental or indirect.

[Gorgiewave]

FWJ: I don't know, and yes, a vegan diet can be a bit more "hassle", but a simple pill solves the problem.

 

I am not a mad fundamentalist, I'm just starting a diet for the good of my health because of what I've read.

[Gorgiewave]

Ribble, use the term "vegan" as you like. I've explained that I'm mostly interested in the health benefit.

 

You are a Hearts supporter. Are you as interested in the early history of the club as 12august1893? Are you as interested in the youth teams as FootballFirst? If so, are you a Hearts fan 'lite'?

[dobmisterdobster]

 

Vitamin B12 is not found in plants. It's better to take a supplement than eat all the meat it would take.

 

It's in marmite.

[Ray Gin]

If our ancestors decided to be vegan, we'd still be living in caves and picking lice out each others hair.

 

What's wrong with having a steak with your red pepper hummus?

 

I've made this point before on here against a vegan who refused to accept that eating meat was a key part of our evolutionary success.

[BoJack Horseman]

I've made this point before on here against a vegan who refused to accept that eating meat was a key part of our evolutionary success.

 

How can they refute that?

[He Who Cannot Be Named]

I genuinely cant see the point. I don;t know anyone that is vegan but if it had genuine health benefits then I suppose I would think about it. Purely for health benefits, I couldnt give a **** about killing animals. Christ, I'd eat humans if they were as tasty as a rump steak.

 

Let us know how you go Gorgiewave.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvlTECbPagI

 

Hope this happens to you one day pal.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You ******* deviant.

[Ribble]

Ribble, use the term "vegan" as you like. I've explained that I'm mostly interested in the health benefit.

 

You are a Hearts supporter. Are you as interested in the early history of the club as 12august1893? Are you as interested in the youth teams as FootballFirst? If so, are you a Hearts fan 'lite'?

 

Doubt being either as interested in the history or the youth team would make me hearts fan lite!

 

You were the one that first said that there was a moral part to your veganism! As for the Health part? your claims have be proven as nothing more than unfounded!

 

ps I would avoid naming posters that haven't commented on this thread!

[The Brow]

 

Now, I'm not quite sure what your incoherent post means but if you genuinely hope I end up in a kosher slaughterhouse then it's me that will have the last laugh.

 

Because I'm not even Muslim. Now, where's that side of brisket I was saving. Yum.

[Taffin]

I don't really understand categorizing people into certain diets. I mainly eat vegetarian, but i like meat now and again for nothing other than taste. I met a girl when travelling who was a vegetarian but when there was no vege option or she didn't fancy what was on offer she would eat meat. I think this is a healthy way of doing it, try as best you can to stick to your health concerns or morals but breaking it now and again really doesn't matter.

 

My other mate is vegetarian and would rather go hungry than eat meat and certainly wouldn't eat meat out of politeness if offered it by a host. Now it is his choice, but i just find this odd. I don't like pork, but if it is all there was I would have it and I wouldn't dream of saying to someone who had cooked me dinner that I wouldn't eat it.

[BoJack Horseman]

Moral vegetarians are the worst kind. Got such high opinions of themselves. Think they're making a difference. If you just don't like meat, then fair enough.

[Snake Plissken]

I soon as I saw the topic title I knew Creepy would be all over it

 

He's spot on as usual.

 

I don't think there's anything wrong with Veganism if you manage your macronutrients properly but to suggest that it's a superior diet for health reasons is patently false.

[I.J]

They kosher coos have got some pretty slick breakdancing moves.

[Creepy Lurker]

The video is good, Creepy Lurker, and worth the time.

 

I know that "correlation is not a cause" but they are a flag for further attention. The details I quoted are attempts at explaining the specifics. The video does the same and provides explanations of why meat and oils are harmful, not just correlations that might be coincidental or indirect.

 

I will actually watch it. I'll say now that this oils thing has come right out of left field for me, I've never heard it before from anyone and I'm extremely sceptical (I'm of the opinion that nothing beside artificial trans fats is 'bad for you' in moderation and as part of a calorie-controlled diet, a stance which is backed up by most to all research I've seen), but I'll try to watch it with an open mind. Shouldn't dismiss anything without at least hearing it out. Don't really have the time to watch it right now or even necessarily today, but you've got me interested in it now.

[reaths17]

what is wrong with the worlds natural suppliments cupboard, coo's, fishes etc, i find it hard to believe that people would evolve with a vitamin defecit if we were meant to be vegans. the variety of fruit/veg/grains/pulses to even get close to a health amount of minerals/vitamins is crazy. it would mean before the whole world opened up and we were given access to all the food stuffs on our planet, that localised populations demographically isolated from getting certain staples would have suffered huge deficiencies and presumably pretty ill health. meat is there for a reason.

 

proccessed/man made foods are obviously made purely for profit and are bad for your health so you avoid these(though bacon is a helen with this) but to buy man made synthetic suppliments when there's a nutural source available is defeating the purpose surely.

[Creepy Lurker]

what is wrong with the worlds natural suppliments cupboard, coo's, fishes etc, i find it hard to believe that people would evolve with a vitamin defecit if we were meant to be vegans. the variety of fruit/veg/grains/pulses to even get close to a health amount of minerals/vitamins is crazy. it would mean before the whole world opened up and we were given access to all the food stuffs on our planet, that localised populations demographically isolated from getting certain staples would have suffered huge deficiencies and presumably pretty ill health. meat is there for a reason.

 

proccessed/man made foods are obviously made purely for profit and are bad for your health so you avoid these(though bacon is a helen with this) but to buy man made synthetic suppliments when there's a nutural source available is defeating the purpose surely.

 

wut

[The People's Chimp]

I will actually watch it. I'll say now that this oils thing has come right out of left field for me, I've never heard it before from anyone and I'm extremely sceptical (I'm of the opinion that nothing beside artificial trans fats is 'bad for you' in moderation and as part of a calorie-controlled diet, a stance which is backed up by most to all research I've seen), but I'll try to watch it with an open mind. .

 

Boom. That's it right there. Worried about health? Take this advice. It's been said before on this thread and elsewhere, but calorie control, moderation and whole, unprocessed foods FTW.

[pablo]

There isn't really a moral argument for making animals suffer.

 

I happily eat meat and have no interest in becoming vegan, but their argument is watertight morally.

 

It just seems so futile and self satisfying, I couldn't be ersed with it. Fully in the knowledge that it's wrong to eat farmed animal products.

 

 

[The People's Chimp]

There isn't really a moral argument for making animals suffer.

 

I happily eat meat and have no interest in becoming vegan, but their argument is watertight morally.

 

It just seems so futile and self satisfying, I couldn't be ersed with it. Fully in the knowledge that it's wrong to eat farmed animal products.

 

I do find some of the indignant posts on here from meat eaters quite revealing when faced with the moral question, they attack the vegan.

 

Interesting.

[BoJack Horseman]

I do find some of the indignant posts on here from meat eaters quite revealing when faced with the moral question, they attack the vegan.

 

Interesting.

 

That's because the "moral question" is an entirely modern human concept. It's completely self-satisfying and personal to the individual.

 

We, as a species, are hunter gatherers. We've been killing animals for millennia. Systematically hunting them down to kill them and harvest them for their meat. Every other predator in the animal kingdom does the same. Some will chase whole packs of animals to catch and maul the stragglers, ripping their throat out with their teeth. That's life. It's the food chain.

 

The whole "oh no, that poor cow" argument is so wishy washy that I personally feel it needs ridiculed. They'd rather live on a diet of rabbit food because the meat they buy at the supermarket was reared for consumption and killed with a bolt gun. We're never going to stop eating meat, and their one man crusade against the industry does feck all, so what's the point? Says a lot about someone's character that they're too upset about some animal that was only born so it could be eaten, to actually eat it.

[Creepy Lurker]

I have a German friend who used to only eat what he or his friends had personally hunted and killed, as his problem was with farming methods rather than eating meat as such.

 

Tried it myself for a while, but there isn't much meat on your average prostitute to be honest.

[The People's Chimp]

That's because the "moral question" is an entirely modern human concept. It's completely self-satisfying and personal to the individual.

 

We, as a species, are hunter gatherers. We've been killing animals for millennia. Systematically hunting them down to kill them and harvest them for their meat. Every other predator in the animal kingdom does the same. Some will chase whole packs of animals to catch and maul the stragglers, ripping their throat out with their teeth. That's life. It's the food chain.

 

The whole "oh no, that poor cow" argument is so wishy washy that I personally feel it needs ridiculed. They'd rather live on a diet of rabbit food because the meat they buy at the supermarket was reared for consumption and killed with a bolt gun. We're never going to stop eating meat, and their one man crusade against the industry does feck all, so what's the point? Says a lot about someone's character that they're too upset about some animal that was only born so it could be eaten, to actually eat it.

 

Live and let live, man.

 

Anyone met a Fruitarian? Or even worse, a raw fruitarian? One played my brother's football team down in Manchester. He was leaving the city and had a leaving night at his flat which only 2 of the team turned up for. The poor *******s soon regretted it as his party consisted of him sitting them down in front of a 2 hour film about the health benefits of raw fruitarianism. Total nutter.

[Gorgiewave]

We, as a species, invent things. Such as agriculture. That was the beginning of the end for hunter-gatherers.

 

Human essentialism - as on The Naked Ape - completely disregards culture and thought.

[BoJack Horseman]

Live and let live, man.

 

Anyone met a Fruitarian? Or even worse, a raw fruitarian? One played my brother's football team down in Manchester. He was leaving the city and had a leaving night at his flat which only 2 of the team turned up for. The poor *******s soon regretted it as his party consisted of him sitting them down in front of a 2 hour film about the health benefits of raw fruitarianism. Total nutter.

 

That sounds utterly horrific, but at least he had some ill-conceived notion of health, rather than some moral highground where he thinks he's saving cows.

 

What about these poor sods that dehydrate all the food they eat? Freaks, the lot of them.

[Creepy Lurker]

I'd say there is an argument in favour of avoiding commercially reared meat as a protest against farming methods. Don't understand people thinking that eating animal products is wrong in itself, although if they aren't always preaching at me then it's none of my business. There are also apparently concerns over the environmental impact of animal farming, although I haven't looked into it much.

[Cade]

I cannae wait till scientists find out that plants feel pain

[Jabba]

 

 

That's because the "moral question" is an entirely modern human concept. It's completely self-satisfying and personal to the individual.

 

We, as a species, are hunter gatherers. We've been killing animals for millennia. Systematically hunting them down to kill them and harvest them for their meat. Every other predator in the animal kingdom does the same. Some will chase whole packs of animals to catch and maul the stragglers, ripping their throat out with their teeth. That's life. It's the food chain.

 

The whole "oh no, that poor cow" argument is so wishy washy that I personally feel it needs ridiculed. They'd rather live on a diet of rabbit food because the meat they buy at the supermarket was reared for consumption and killed with a bolt gun. We're never going to stop eating meat, and their one man crusade against the industry does feck all, so what's the point? Says a lot about someone's character that they're too upset about some animal that was only born so it could be eaten, to actually eat it.

 

There's a wee bit of a difference between hunting and intensive farming/industrialised slaughter.

 

You have come across really well on this topic and your razor sharp wit and hilarious posts have made for great reading.

[BoJack Horseman]

There's a wee bit of a difference between hunting and intensive farming/industrialised slaughter.

 

You have come across really well on this topic and your razor sharp wit and hilarious posts have made for great reading.

 

Not in this context though. I'm sure if I put down two slabs of ribeye to a moral based vegetarian; one the product of intensive farming and industrialised slaughter, the other raised as the farmers own kin, its throat slit whilst it slept; that the vegetarian wouldn't know the difference, nor care to eat either. It's because they're sensitive souls and think their one-man crusade against the meat industry is going to do anything. As if they don't pick up a pack of bacon from Tesco, that it's magically going to reattach itself to the back of the pig and it will go on its merry way back to its family to live happily ever after.

[Jabba]

GW, my wife has been vegan for a year and I'll often eat vegan meals that she'll cook. It doesn't bother me in the slightest and you can have plenty of variety in your diet. Curries are probably kind of food where you don't notice a lack of meat as much. Plenty of flavour and you can still have bhaji and veg pakora.

 

Also falafel, baba ganoush, humous, cous cous and other "meze" foods can make really tasty wraps and salads and you can vary them quite a lot.

 

Go for it mate and ignore the WUMs, pedants and bellends. My wife's change in diet has coincided with me eating a lot healthier and has helped a lot.

[Jabba]

 

 

Not in this context though. I'm sure if I put down two slabs of ribeye to a moral based vegetarian; one the product of intensive farming and industrialised slaughter, the other raised as the farmers own kin, its throat slit whilst it slept; that the vegetarian wouldn't know the difference, nor care to eat either. It's because they're sensitive souls and think their one-man crusade against the meat industry is going to do anything. As if they don't pick up a pack of bacon from Tesco, that it's magically going to reattach itself to the back of the pig and it will go on its merry way back to its family to live happily ever after.

What are you talking about?

 

Sweeping generalisations and stereotypes aye?

 

You carry on with those and I'll carry on giving up a couple lines in.

[BoJack Horseman]

What are you talking about?

 

Sweeping generalisations and stereotypes aye?

 

You carry on with those and I'll carry on giving up a couple lines in.

 

Ah, your wife is a vegan. Got it.

[Jabba]

 

 

Ah, your wife is a vegan. Got it.

 

Yeah, that's it. Not your shit chat at all.

[Creepy Lurker]

GW, my wife has been vegan for a year and I'll often eat vegan meals that she'll cook. It doesn't bother me in the slightest and you can have plenty of variety in your diet. Curries are probably kind of food where you don't notice a lack of meat as much. Plenty of flavour and you can still have bhaji and veg pakora.

 

Also falafel, baba ganoush, humous, cous cous and other "meze" foods can make really tasty wraps and salads and you can vary them quite a lot.

 

Go for it mate and ignore the WUMs, pedants and bellends. My wife's change in diet has coincided with me eating a lot healthier and has helped a lot. I get what CL was trying to say but I think he was being a bit of a ****** about it.

 

Lolwut?

 

I don't have any problem with veganism, I'm not telling GW not to be vegan and I'm not trying to force my own personal stance on the issue (I eat meat) on others. One of my best friends is vegan and eats some great food. In general I prefer non-militant vegans to the kind of people who'd describe themselves as 'carnivores'.

 

What I've been arguing against has been that the belief that veganism is healthier than a non-restrictive diet, a belief which I don't consider to be backed by science. I might've been abrasive about it at times, but so was GW so maybe you should get butthurt at him too. As far as I can tell, he and I seem to be fine now anyway.

[Walrus]

Lolwut?

 

I don't have any problem with veganism, I'm not telling GW not to be vegan and I'm not trying to force my own personal stance on the issue (I eat meat) on others. One of my best friends is vegan and eats some great food. In general I prefer non-militant vegans to the kind of people who'd describe themselves as 'carnivores'.

 

What I've been arguing against has been that the belief that veganism is healthier than a non-restrictive diet, a belief which I don't consider to be backed by science. I might've been abrasive about it at times, but so was GW so maybe you should get butthurt at him too. As far as I can tell, he and I seem to be fine now anyway.

[Ortarkod]

Family forum.

 

[Quagmire]

i was a vegan for a while a few years back, which gave rise to a now legendary (and, i stress, drunken thread on here)...i'm not now, i'm not even vegetarian, though i lean that way in my eating - i just can't be hooped making an effort with what i eat.

 

that said, when i was vegan, i felt bloody great. it's basically impossible to have a really, really greasy, heavy, stodgy meal, which you do miss a bit, but this is made up for by not feeling the after effects of such indulgences.

 

if you're into the whole 'morality' thing, which i was in a big way, and am now not, in a big way, then i think it's a much more consistent position to be vegan, or even a carnivore who chooses their meat (and maybe milk/cheese) from really good, ethical sources, than it is to be a vegetarian who'll just eat all the cheapy shite stuff (quorn, for example, are a pretty ropey company). in a hypothetical sense, suffering of some sort is closer to being necessary with dairy products, in a way that it might not be with meat. suffering seems to be the issue for me, not death (if painless).

 

i think, though, that the main maxim to live by is 'don't be a dick', which extends not only to what you eat/buy, but also how you put your views across to other people. i wouldn't say all vegans are dicks, in fact i've met a few very, very sound ones. they are, usually, however, a bit mental. (though obviously that says more about the general type of character that tends to choose veganism, and not the lifestyle itself, and also nothing about specific vegans - just the ones i've met.)

 

i would hasten to add that i fail to live by this maxim plenty of the time (although i do try not to), which is why i usually don't tell people what i think they should do (and i hope i've not done that too much in this post).

[The People's Chimp]

 

if you're into the whole 'morality' thing, which i was in a big way, and am now not, in a big way, then i think it's a much more consistent position to be vegan, or even a carnivore who chooses their meat (and maybe milk/cheese) from really good, ethical sources, than it is to be a vegetarian who'll just eat all the cheapy shite stuff (quorn, for example, are a pretty ropey company). in a hypothetical sense, suffering of some sort is closer to being necessary with dairy products, in a way that it might not be with meat. suffering seems to be the issue for me, not death (if painless).

 

 

But you are into that whole Yale thing.

[Quagmire]

That's because the "moral question" is an entirely modern human concept. It's completely self-satisfying and personal to the individual.

 

We, as a species, are hunter gatherers. We've been killing animals for millennia. Systematically hunting them down to kill them and harvest them for their meat. Every other predator in the animal kingdom does the same. Some will chase whole packs of animals to catch and maul the stragglers, ripping their throat out with their teeth. That's life. It's the food chain.

 

The whole "oh no, that poor cow" argument is so wishy washy that I personally feel it needs ridiculed. They'd rather live on a diet of rabbit food because the meat they buy at the supermarket was reared for consumption and killed with a bolt gun. We're never going to stop eating meat, and their one man crusade against the industry does feck all, so what's the point? Says a lot about someone's character that they're too upset about some animal that was only born so it could be eaten, to actually eat it.

 

i wouldn't say i completely and utterly disagree with you here, but your way of making your point is, frankly, bullshit. i agree that 'moral questions' are entirely conceptual and (to a significant degree) personal. i don't see, however, why the history of the human race in relation to eating meat, and the seeming inevitability of the continued consumption of meat, entails anything like that which you seem to be alluding to - that any sort of opinion or stance or 'crusade' or whatever with regard to animal rights is 'wishy washy' or 'invalid'. it is certainly not inevitable that we will continue to treat animals as badly as we have done and still do. this is because as well as being, historically, a 'hunter gatherer' species, humans (...some more than others...) have also developed a sense of empathy and altruism towards other agents, across species. for a myriad of reasons, such compulsions are, i would argue, beneficial to us as a species (obviously, some people get too upset and then act like dicks about their cause etc, but in the big picture, i think we all benefit from this sort of stuff).

 

i could waffle about this for ages, but, in short, yes, a crusade to end meat eating for good is pointless, but no, feeling empathy for animals (that do half self-awareness, and can feel pain) is not wishy-washy bollocks - it's actually very, very important IMO.

[Quagmire]

But you are into that whole Yale thing.

 

what yale thing...?