Veganism

[BoJack Horseman]

i was a vegan for a while a few years back, which gave rise to a now legendary (and, i stress, drunken thread on here)...i'm not now, i'm not even vegetarian, though i lean that way in my eating - i just can't be hooped making an effort with what i eat.

 

that said, when i was vegan, i felt bloody great. it's basically impossible to have a really, really greasy, heavy, stodgy meal, which you do miss a bit, but this is made up for by not feeling the after effects of such indulgences.

 

if you're into the whole 'morality' thing, which i was in a big way, and am now not, in a big way, then i think it's a much more consistent position to be vegan, or even a carnivore who chooses their meat (and maybe milk/cheese) from really good, ethical sources, than it is to be a vegetarian who'll just eat all the cheapy shite stuff (quorn, for example, are a pretty ropey company). in a hypothetical sense, suffering of some sort is closer to being necessary with dairy products, in a way that it might not be with meat. suffering seems to be the issue for me, not death (if painless).

 

i think, though, that the main maxim to live by is 'don't be a dick', which extends not only to what you eat/buy, but also how you put your views across to other people. i wouldn't say all vegans are dicks, in fact i've met a few very, very sound ones. they are, usually, however, a bit mental. (though obviously that says more about the general type of character that tends to choose veganism, and not the lifestyle itself, and also nothing about specific vegans - just the ones i've met.)

 

i would hasten to add that i fail to live by this maxim plenty of the time (although i do try not to), which is why i usually don't tell people what i think they should do (and i hope i've not done that too much in this post).

 

So what changed for you on the morality level? And do you not think you can get that good feeling and avoid the heavy greasy stodge on non-vegan diet?

 

I reckon that's what CL is getting at mostly. Vegan's think their diet is healthier, but it's only healthier because by default you're watching what you eat, whereas you can be just as healthy on a varied diet, as long as you also watch what you eat.

[Quagmire]

So what changed for you on the morality level? And do you not think you can get that good feeling and avoid the heavy greasy stodge on non-vegan diet?

 

I reckon that's what CL is getting at mostly. Vegan's think their diet is healthier, but it's only healthier because by default you're watching what you eat, whereas you can be just as healthy on a varied diet, as long as you also watch what you eat.

 

the answer to your first question is very boring, and makes me sounds like a ****, but i don't exactly believe in morals as such, as i sort of see them as being short-cuts for behavioural-decision making...or something...

 

you totally can get that feeling from a non-vegan diet, it's just harder as there are more temptations. making things off limits, with a nice clear red line, takes a lot less self control than asking yourself 'should i...?' every time.

[BoJack Horseman]

i wouldn't say i completely and utterly disagree with you here, but your way of making your point is, frankly, bullshit. i agree that 'moral questions' are entirely conceptual and (to a significant degree) personal. i don't see, however, why the history of the human race in relation to eating meat, and the seeming inevitability of the continued consumption of meat, entails anything like that which you seem to be alluding to - that any sort of opinion or stance or 'crusade' or whatever with regard to animal rights is 'wishy washy' or 'invalid'. it is certainly not inevitable that we will continue to treat animals as badly as we have done and still do. this is because as well as being, historically, a 'hunter gatherer' species, humans (...some more than others...) have also developed a sense of empathy and altruism towards other agents, across species. for a myriad of reasons, such compulsions are, i would argue, beneficial to us as a species (obviously, some people get too upset and then act like dicks about their cause etc, but in the big picture, i think we all benefit from this sort of stuff).

 

i could waffle about this for ages, but, in short, yes, a crusade to end meat eating for good is pointless, but no, feeling empathy for animals (that do half self-awareness, and can feel pain) is not wishy-washy bollocks - it's actually very, very important IMO.

 

I point to our ancestors to show that it is human nature to eat meat. We're not going to go out and hunt them ourselves, so we require others to do that for us. Yes, it could be done more humanely, but if it's not, denying yourself meat isn't going to change that. The industry will change that without your mini-protest, so if you actually do enjoy meat (as is shown by those that look for alternatives) then why not just eat the real thing.

 

It's wishy washy because it's so utterly self-satisfying. I can't put myself in their shoes as I genuinely don't get it. It's not like you're eating your neighbours dog. It's a cow, a chicken, a pig, that otherwise would never have been born. It would never have had a life to take away if it weren't for the folk that want to eat it. It's entire existence was just a linear path to my plate. So why greet over it? It's the food chain, and we're at the top. Sorry Daisy, I'ma drink your milk and eat your flesh and make shoes from your skin, because that's the way of the world and nothing will change it.

 

It goes beyond far beyond basic empathy. It's just incredibly masturbatory.

[BoJack Horseman]

the answer to your first question is very boring, and makes me sounds like a ****, but i don't exactly believe in morals as such, as i sort of see them as being short-cuts for behavioural-decision making...or something...

 

you totally can get that feeling from a non-vegan diet, it's just harder as there are more temptations. making things off limits, with a nice clear red line, takes a lot less self control than asking yourself 'should i...?' every time.

 

So why did you become a vegan, and then subsequently change your mind?

 

That's the same with all diets though. I did low-carb for a while and it was easy because I just had to say no to sugar. Instantly things you'd normally snack or indulge on are no longer available to you, so you lose weight and feel better by default. I got to eat as much dead animal as I wanted to though. Wouldn't give up meat for anything.

[Jabba]

 

 

I point to our ancestors to show that it is human nature to eat meat. We're not going to go out and hunt them ourselves, so we require others to do that for us. Yes, it could be done more humanely, but if it's not, denying yourself meat isn't going to change that. The industry will change that without your mini-protest, so if you actually do enjoy meat (as is shown by those that look for alternatives) then why not just eat the real thing.

 

It's wishy washy because it's so utterly self-satisfying. I can't put myself in their shoes as I genuinely don't get it. It's not like you're eating your neighbours dog. It's a cow, a chicken, a pig, that otherwise would never have been born. It would never have had a life to take away if it weren't for the folk that want to eat it. It's entire existence was just a linear path to my plate. So why greet over it? It's the food chain, and we're at the top. Sorry Daisy, I'ma drink your milk and eat your flesh and make shoes from your skin, because that's the way of the world and nothing will change it.

 

It goes beyond far beyond basic empathy. It's just incredibly masturbatory.

 

You spout some pish.

 

[Jabba]

 

 

[Jabba]

 

 

Lolwut?

 

I don't have any problem with veganism, I'm not telling GW not to be vegan and I'm not trying to force my own personal stance on the issue (I eat meat) on others. One of my best friends is vegan and eats some great food. In general I prefer non-militant vegans to the kind of people who'd describe themselves as 'carnivores'.

 

What I've been arguing against has been that the belief that veganism is healthier than a non-restrictive diet, a belief which I don't consider to be backed by science. I might've been abrasive about it at times, but so was GW so maybe you should get butthurt at him too. As far as I can tell, he and I seem to be fine now anyway.

 

3 paragraphs would point to the butthurtedness lying with you my man. Apologies if I treated you roughly.

 

Nothing personal mate, you seem well clued up but sometimes you come on a bit strong with it.

 

****** was maybes a bit harsh though.

[BoJack Horseman]

You spout some pish.

 

Thanks man. I hope your wife isn't too upset today.

[I.J]

I thought the morality thing was just folk kidding on.

 

I mean cause it'd be immoral to go to a restaurant and spend, say, ?30 on an evening's scran when there's bairns starving, right?

[BoJack Horseman]

I thought the morality thing was just folk kidding on.

 

I mean cause it'd be immoral to go to a restaurant and spend, say, ?30 on an evening's scran when there's bairns starving, right?

 

It's very real I.J. Jabba's poor wife can barely get a wink of sleep due to the nightmares.

[Jabba]

 

 

Thanks man. I hope your wife isn't too upset today.

 

For what it's worth she's not much into the ethics of it. Doesn't really tell anyone she's a vegan unless I'm ripping the pish out her for it. I enjoy eating meat too, just not keen on the way it's reared/produced.

 

You crash on with your blinkered, stereotypical views of the world though. I'm away.

 

[Jabba]

 

 

It's very real I.J. Jabba's poor wife can barely get a wink of sleep due to the nightmares.

 

Aye, because I mentioned her being morally opposed to it eh? Any excuse to rim a poster who can be quite funny though.

 

Fanboy

[Thaw]

To the OP: Don't be giving me any of your vegetarian sh*t next time I come to visit !!!

[BoJack Horseman]

Aye, because I mentioned her being morally opposed to it eh? Any excuse to rim a poster who can be quite funny though.

 

Fanboy

 

You're such an angry man.

[Gorgiewave]

"My father sent me to Yale. He was a judge."

Is it that?

 

Creepy Lurker and I are fine, until the next time.

[Jabba]

 

 

You're such an angry man.

Unfortunately I have no argument to this.

[Gorgiewave]

Thabks, Jabba. Top bloke, whose wife with live long and healthly.

[BoJack Horseman]

Thabks, Jabba. Top bloke, whose wife with live long and healthly.

 

Mind not put all your free range eggs in one basket.

 

Wait, you don't eat eggs either. Strange diet.

[I.J]

Where do vegan women stand on gams?

[Jabba]

Where do vegan women stand on gams?

 

She tends to kneel.

[I.J]

She tends to kneel.

 

I knew that would be the answer. I'm half serious though - surely they can't?

[pablo]

How is using animal products the right thing to do? You might not give a shite about the animal suffering, which is kinda where I am to be honest. But it will suffer. Might not even be actual pain, but perhaps anxiety and other mental anguish. You don't need to use animal products to survive, therefore it can't be justified from a moral standpoint.

 

I had pork chops tonight

[BoJack Horseman]

I knew that would be the answer. I'm half serious though - surely they can't?

 

Spitters at least. Which makes them even more vile.

[Jabba]

 

 

I knew that would be the answer. I'm half serious though - surely they can't?

I knew that question would crop up too. I expected it earlier. You're not - and apparently they can.

[Creepy Lurker]

 

 

3 paragraphs would point to the butthurtedness lying with you my man. Apologies if I treated you roughly.

 

Nothing personal mate, you seem well clued up but sometimes you come on a bit strong with it.

 

****** was maybes a bit harsh though.

 

This post is three paragraphs long. You're butthurt. It's your own logic. Unlucky, bro.

[Jabba]

I'll opt out from here though.

[Creepy Lurker]

How is using animal products the right thing to do? You might not give a shite about the animal suffering, which is kinda where I am to be honest. But it will suffer. Might not even be actual pain, but perhaps anxiety and other mental anguish. You don't need to use animal products to survive, therefore it can't be justified from a moral standpoint.

 

I had pork chops tonight

 

This rather assumes that morality is objective.

[I.J]

I knew that question would crop up too. I expected it earlier. You're not - and apparently they can.

 

What if they're catholic?

 

[Jabba]

 

 

What if they're catholic?

 

Then they will be excellent at it with all the tutoring at chapel.

[redm]

GW, I'd be genuinely interested to hear what you eventually end up eating in the course of a day. Not because I'm considering the switch myself (I'm with the moderation and unprocessed gang) but because it might work well as an occasional veggie-focused detox sort of thing. If you can be arsed writing up your eatings for a day or two, I'd like to read it .

[Gorgiewave]

GW, I'd be genuinely interested to hear what you eventually end up eating in the course of a day. Not because I'm considering the switch myself (I'm with the moderation and unprocessed gang) but because it might work well as an occasional veggie-focused detox sort of thing. If you can be arsed writing up your eatings for a day or two, I'd like to read it .

 

No bother. I made a hodgepodge consisting of chickpeas, lentils (both raw to avoid E-numbers), onion, mushrooms (setas), pure?d tomato, chopped tomato, oregano and rosemary. I heat that in the microwave for breakfast. I also had it for lunch yesterday. Yesterday, a handful of a mix of nuts and dried berries (I don't know what it all was, and I've thrown out the box. No salt, though, which is rare enough). Coffee. Cherries, kiwi fruit and half a bag of spinach eaten out the bag like crisps for dinner.

 

Today I made a pizza for lunch. Wholemeal flour, olive oil and water in the base. Instead of cheese or vegan cheese, it occurred to me to make pure?d cauliflower with garlic, olive oil, basil and oregano through it. Pure?d tomato, red pepper, onion, olive oil, curry powder and rosemary on top. I also inadvertently broke the veganism rule by adding Worcester sauce. Out of curiosity, I looked at the ingredients, not expecting to find anything from the animal kingdom, but it contains anchovies (WTF?). A sprinkle of that on top.

 

Dinner: kiwi fruit, mango, apple, glass of diet coke (which I hardly ever drink).

 

Three cups of instant coffee with reduced sugar soya milk during the day.

 

I do have some carbs-and-oil craving - crisps might yet kill me - but otherwise it's not bad.

[redm]

Raw chickpea and lentils... Am I being thick, do you mean you actually ate raw chickpeas and lentils?

 

Otherwise, sounds not bad. I'm a fan of eating leaves from bags. Rocket, specifically. Gets me a few weird looks in the office.

[Gorgiewave]

Raw chickpea and lentils... Am I being thick, do you mean you actually ate raw chickpeas and lentils?

 

Otherwise, sounds not bad. I'm a fan of eating leaves from bags. Rocket, specifically. Gets me a few weird looks in the office.

 

No, they had been raw and I soaked them and boiled them before eating. I mean not straight out a jar.

I'm a big rocket-out-a-bag man. ?1 out of D?a.

[Creepy Lurker]

I still haven't watched that video

 

Today. I'll watch it today.

[BoJack Horseman]

No bother. I made a hodgepodge consisting of chickpeas, lentils (both raw to avoid E-numbers), onion, mushrooms (setas), pure?d tomato, chopped tomato, oregano and rosemary. I heat that in the microwave for breakfast. I also had it for lunch yesterday. Yesterday, a handful of a mix of nuts and dried berries (I don't know what it all was, and I've thrown out the box. No salt, though, which is rare enough). Coffee. Cherries, kiwi fruit and half a bag of spinach eaten out the bag like crisps for dinner.

 

Today I made a pizza for lunch. Wholemeal flour, olive oil and water in the base. Instead of cheese or vegan cheese, it occurred to me to make pure?d cauliflower with garlic, olive oil, basil and oregano through it. Pure?d tomato, red pepper, onion, olive oil, curry powder and rosemary on top. I also inadvertently broke the veganism rule by adding Worcester sauce. Out of curiosity, I looked at the ingredients, not expecting to find anything from the animal kingdom, but it contains anchovies (WTF?). A sprinkle of that on top.

 

Dinner: kiwi fruit, mango, apple, glass of diet coke (which I hardly ever drink).

 

Three cups of instant coffee with reduced sugar soya milk during the day.

 

I do have some carbs-and-oil craving - crisps might yet kill me - but otherwise it's not bad.

 

[Gorgiewave]

 

Aye, hilarious stuff.

[Snake Plissken]

No bother. I made a hodgepodge consisting of chickpeas, lentils (both raw to avoid E-numbers), onion, mushrooms (setas), pure?d tomato, chopped tomato, oregano and rosemary. I heat that in the microwave for breakfast. I also had it for lunch yesterday. Yesterday, a handful of a mix of nuts and dried berries (I don't know what it all was, and I've thrown out the box. No salt, though, which is rare enough). Coffee. Cherries, kiwi fruit and half a bag of spinach eaten out the bag like crisps for dinner.

 

Today I made a pizza for lunch. Wholemeal flour, olive oil and water in the base. Instead of cheese or vegan cheese, it occurred to me to make pure?d cauliflower with garlic, olive oil, basil and oregano through it. Pure?d tomato, red pepper, onion, olive oil, curry powder and rosemary on top. I also inadvertently broke the veganism rule by adding Worcester sauce. Out of curiosity, I looked at the ingredients, not expecting to find anything from the animal kingdom, but it contains anchovies (WTF?). A sprinkle of that on top.

 

Dinner: kiwi fruit, mango, apple, glass of diet coke (which I hardly ever drink).

 

Three cups of instant coffee with reduced sugar soya milk during the day.

 

I do have some carbs-and-oil craving - crisps might yet kill me - but otherwise it's not bad.

 

Each to their own but that sounds ******* awful.

[Sarah O]

I eat meat 7 days a week ususlly twice a day.

 

Becsuse it tastes gid.

 

 

[Gorgiewave]

I eat meat 7 days a week ususlly twice a day.

 

Becsuse it tastes gid.

 

Enjoy your stroke.

[Creepy Lurker]

Enjoy dying of MEAT DISEASE.

[cosanostra]

What's the deal with Worcester sauce?

[dobmisterdobster]

What's the deal with Worcester sauce?

 

I get this.

 

[Gorgiewave]

What's the deal with Worcester sauce?

 

Contains anchovies, apparently.

[BoJack Horseman]

Contains anchovies, apparently.

 

Heart attack in a bottle that stuff.

[GlasgoJambo]

I've pointed this out to vegetarians who enjoy a Bloody Mary.

[Tommy Wiseau]

I would say live and let live, but given I am a man who believes in the food chain and takes pride in my species' place at the top of it, perhaps "live and let slaughter in order that humans can feast on the flesh" would be more appropriate.

 

That said, rocket out a bag is tremendous.

[Boomstick]

Rocket out a bag is incredible. I'm bad for eating shite but that's one of my favourites.

[Tommy Wiseau]

With mozzarella, black pepper and balsamic vinegar / olive oil.

 

In a sandwich.

 

In a salad.

 

It doesn't matter. It's magic.

[Boomstick]

I'm not daft on most leaves either. I can eat them but I don't particularly like them.

 

Rocket is actually nice though.

 

Everything Tommy just said is factual.

[Ivan Drago]

With mozzarella, black pepper and balsamic vinegar / olive oil.

 

In a sandwich.

 

In a salad.

 

It doesn't matter. It's magic.

 

 

Where's the meat?

 

:bitgay: