Veganism

[Gorgiewave]

What's the verdict of the JKB masses?

I've been doing it for a few days. I haven't bought anything special. It's perfectly possible to eat unhealthily on a vegan diet (sugar, salt and saturated fat are all allowed), so I've not used oils. It's bland, even with loads of herbs and spices.

 

Has anybody done it? How do you keep at it?

 

 

 

[Sarah O]

Wankers.

 

All of them.

[Currahee!]

I sat next to an American on our flight back from Belfast who was vegan.

 

I asked him all about it and he admitted it was hard and also admitted he used to be a dick in restaurants etc.

 

So I finally asked him why? What was the point?

 

Still never got a straight answer.

[Boomstick]

Perverts.

[I.J]

Worse than sewer rats.

[Gorgiewave]

I've resolved not to be a dick about it: if I go to.somebody's house for dinner, I'll eat whatever they give me.

[Gorgiewave]

Eat shit and die, naysayers!

[cosanostra]

One of my mates is a vegan and he swears by it.

He didn't really like meat so becoming vegetarian was completely natural to him.

He was only a full-on vegetarian for a few months and he said that it didn't make him feel any different. He then tried veganism and he said that difference in the way he felt, slept, his emotions, self-confidence etc was absolutely titanic.

No idea if any other vegans talk that way but the only vegan I know does.

[Gorgiewave]

In my case it was promoted by Bill Clinton and when I turned thirty I suddenly realised how close I was to my mother's age when she died (36) overweight and with high blood pressure.

[The Great Khali]

Deviants

[Zico]

I've got respect for vegans. At least they're committed, unlike some of the half-arsed sanctimonious vegetarians - yeah, I love animals and you're a fascist pig carnivore, but I'll have the fish followed by the chicken and what do you think of my new leather shoes? Twats.

[dobmisterdobster]

I've been a vegetarian for about 10 years. Couldn't be a vegan though.

If you're after a meat substitute, try Quorn or the equivalent supermarket brand.

[2NaFish]

if i was gonna be a vegetarian, i'd go all out and be vegan but it looks far harder than anything i could handle. good luck with it.

[GlasgoJambo]

My old boss was a vegan - lovely guy. Not preachy in the slightest. Health-wise, environmentally and morally it seems worthwhile.

[Joey J J Jr Shabadoo]

I've got respect for vegans. At least they're committed, unlike some of the half-arsed sanctimonious vegetarians - yeah, I love animals and you're a fascist pig carnivore, but I'll have the fish followed by the chicken and what do you think of my new leather shoes? Twats.

 

Vegetarians don't eat chicken or fish, though.

[Mr Romanov Saviour of HMFC]

In my case it was promoted by Bill Clinton and when I turned thirty I suddenly realised how close I was to my mother's age when she died (36) overweight and with high blood pressure.

 

Why not just exercise and have a balanced diet?

 

Sounds like you're destined to have a short life though, can't escape the genes bro. Unlucks.

[Gorgiewave]

Thanks, A. Thankfully I don't smoke, haven't had preeclampsia and walk seven miles a day.

[IronJambo]

The first thing wrong with vegans is that they feel the need to tell you they're a vegan as soon as you can.

Congratulations, you've only been one for a couple of days and you're telling as many strangers as you can.

[The Brow]

I genuinely cant see the point. I don;t know anyone that is vegan but if it had genuine health benefits then I suppose I would think about it. Purely for health benefits, I couldnt give a **** about killing animals. Christ, I'd eat humans if they were as tasty as a rump steak.

 

Let us know how you go Gorgiewave.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You ******* deviant.

[Gorgiewave]

IronJambo, who gives a shit if it's your wife in the magician's photo? Thousands of strangers? I've asked people for experiences and a few have responded. Now **** off.

[Creepy Lurker]

The putative health benefits of veganism are a myth based upon misinterpreted epidemiological data, and the same goes for vegetarianism.

 

OP mentioned sugar, saturated fat and salt. There's nothing wrong with any of these health-wise beyond their helping to create a chronic caloric surplus.

 

If people choose to be vegans for ethical reasons then that's their business.

[moogsy]

I can understand folk doing it for ethical reasons, can't really get my head round why you'd need to do it for health reasons though.

 

Meat and dairy products aren't inherently unhealthy and it's far easier to include them if you want a balanced diet.

[IronJambo]

IronJambo, who gives a shit if it's your wife in the magician's photo? Thousands of strangers? I've asked people for experiences and a few have responded.

 

Chill Wintson If you're so wound up about your new lifestyle choice you should maybe reconsider and just be a full out carnivore and munch on as many animals as you can.

 

I actually wouldn't have posted if I'd thought you were going lose your sense of humour and take it so badly. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and put it down to a bad moment

 

PS. Do yourself a favour and edit your post before a mod takes offence

[Gorgiewave]

Mods, friendly disagreement between Hammers fans (great-granny from Poplar, pity about the1-2 v Aldershot the night before the White Hart Lane game, eh?).

[Ray Gin]

What's the verdict of the JKB masses?

I've been doing it for a few days. I haven't bought anything special. It's perfectly possible to eat unhealthily on a vegan diet (sugar, salt and saturated fat are all allowed), so I've not used oils. It's bland, even with loads of herbs and spices.

 

Has anybody done it? How do you keep at it?

 

Not a chance I could do it. I can't think of the last time I went a day without eating meat.

[IronJambo]

Mods, friendly disagreement between Hammers fans (great-granny from Poplar, pity about the1-2 v Aldershot the night before the White Hart Lane game, eh?).

 

I actually had to Google the Aldershot match, I had no idea what you were on about (was working way too much back then). Poplar's just along the road from me in the next postcode.

 

In all seriousness, I don't really understand how someone could pull off being a vegan if it wasn't for really strong moral views. I enjoy food way too much and can't even comprehend depriving myself from the pleasure of taste.

I just have the very simplistic view that if cooking your own food fresh and avoiding processed meats and off the shelf cook-in sauces then you're in complete control of your diet and avoid the hidden crap that'll put you in an early grave. If that along with moderate exercise and a balanced work life balance in a job that you enjoy isn't enough to stay healthy then I'm stuffed

 

[Matthew Le Tissier]

Creeps

[Gorgiewave]

I actually had to Google the Aldershot match, I had no idea what you were on about (was working way too much back then). Poplar's just along the road from me in the next postcode.

 

In all seriousness, I don't really understand how someone could pull off being a vegan if it wasn't for really strong moral views. I enjoy food way too much and can't even comprehend depriving myself from the pleasure of taste.

I just have the very simplistic view that if cooking your own food fresh and avoiding processed meats and off the shelf cook-in sauces then you're in complete control of your diet and avoid the hidden crap that'll put you in an early grave. If that along with moderate exercise and a balanced work life balance in a job that you enjoy isn't enough to stay healthy then I'm stuffed

 

I enjoy food as well, nothing more than a big pizza or a steak.

There is a moral aspect to it for me: not just the cruelty of keeping animals, but also the damage done by deforestation to keep them. Most of the Brazilian rainforest is cleared to make grazing ground for cows. I believe that, square metre for square metre, there are more calories in growing vegetables or fruit than feeding animals (i.e., there's more nutrition in the plants covering the area needed to feed an animal than that animal provides). Which doesn't do wonders for the environment.

 

I got into this guy from listening to Bill Clinton:

 

http://www.heartattackproof.com/

 

 

I know that a vegan diet doesn't contain everything, but I take a supplement (vitamins and minerals bought in Boots) and I have, as far as I know, every nutrient.

[Davie749]

It's a well known fact, that losing the heid on message boards is a sure symptom of a lack of iron in your diet

[BoJack Horseman]

Why would you care how many trees are in the rainforest? Such hippy bullshit. Noooo not the trees! I'm gonna not eat meat for the trees!

[IronJambo]

 

I enjoy food as well, nothing more than a big pizza or a steak.

There is a moral aspect to it for me: not just the cruelty of keeping animals, but also the damage done by deforestation to keep them. Most of the Brazilian rainforest is cleared to make grazing ground for cows. I believe that, square metre for square metre, there are more calories in growing vegetables or fruit than feeding animals (i.e., there's more nutrition in the plants covering the area needed to feed an animal than that animal provides). Which doesn't do wonders for the environment.

 

I got into this guy from listening to Bill Clinton:

 

http://www.heartattackproof.com/

 

 

I know that a vegan diet doesn't contain everything, but I take a supplement (vitamins and minerals bought in Boots) and I have, as far as I know, every nutrient.

 

Kobe beef is maybe the way forward. Keep a cow in the same spot but massage her before getting tore in.

 

Maybe I'm empty inside but I have very few morals when it comes to food. I won't buy eggs from caged hens and I would never eat foie gras. Everything else is fair game for me.

 

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Worse than Dug Eyes McGarvey!

[Zico]

 

 

Vegetarians don't eat chicken or fish, though.

No, but some half-arsed veggie wannabes do - they're usually the most vocal.

[Gorgiewave]

The putative health benefits of veganism are a myth based upon misinterpreted epidemiological data, and the same goes for vegetarianism.

 

OP mentioned sugar, saturated fat and salt. There's nothing wrong with any of these health-wise beyond their helping to create a chronic caloric surplus.

 

If people choose to be vegans for ethical reasons then that's their business.

 

A very confident (l?ase, glib) post there, Creepy Lurker.

 

http://www.bmj.com/content/339/bmj.b2507.extract

 

James McWilliams Jan 18 2012, 8:58 AM ET

 

 

 

 

 

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There's plenty of science to justify a plant-based diet, but the stories of personal transformation?curing diabetes, losing 100 pounds, living an active lifestyle?make the biggest impression.

Here is a comprehensive list of what I ate, in one form or another, on the day I wrote this:

Kale, mustard greens, carrots, celery, onions, mushrooms, quinoa, amaranth, pinto beans, beets, parsnips, turnips, yellow peas, brown rice, kimchi, purple cabbage, butternut squash, blueberries, a banana, hemp seeds, flaxseed oil, snap peas, an apple, cashews, almonds, pumpkin seeds, pistachio nuts, garlic, broccoli, raisins, granola, avocado, polenta, salsa, a few saltines, a piece of raisin toast with apricot jam, tofu, coffee, olive oil, harisa, chickpeas, tomatoes, a small handful of chocolate chips, a couple of beers ... and a vitamin.

For the vegans with whom I share breakfast every weekday morning at a Casa de Luz in Austin, Texas, it's a standard daily spread. Forty-three discrete plant foods, a couple of processed items, a little alcohol and caffeine, very few carbs, a B-12 pill. Nutrition is shifty business, but I'm guessing most experts would deem this to be a well-chosen array of grub. I might keel over tomorrow, but for now, at the end of the day, I feel as though I could climb Everest. The food was delicious, too.

I mention this list to offer a personal counter-narrative to the increasingly popular and decidedly dour "I'm a recovering vegan" storyline. Perhaps inspired by Lierre Kieth's The Vegetarian Myth, a book that chronicles the author's losing battle with a plant-based diet, bloggers have clogged foodie networks with angst-ridden accounts of fatigue, sickness, hair loss, anxiety, diminished sex drive, and mental breakdown after quitting animal products. The problem with these accounts, as far as I can tell, is that those who made the vegan leap (and I praise them for doing it) did so without doing due diligence on the details of intelligent veganism. Someone can live on potato chips, pot, and cherry soda and call himself a vegan. Many recidivists have evidently tried to do just that.

For those who want it to be, a plant-based diet is also a potent political comment on our broken food system.

Whether you are convinced by a book such as The China Study or not, there's no disputing the fact that a diet rich in plant-based, unprocessed food is a smart diet. My point here isn't to suggest that a diet including modest amounts of lean meat can't be healthy. It surely can be. Instead, I want to reiterate the equally healthful consequences of a healthy vegan diet. I can brook a million excuses for why a person simply cannot go vegan -- cheese! yogurt! cream in my coffee! -- but the assertion that veganism, when done right, isn't healthy is just plain bunk.

For me, the most persuasive evidence supporting a healthy vegan diet is anecdotal. The vegans who frequent Casa de Luz, my breakfast (and often lunch) destination, are paragons of good health. Many of them are significantly older than I am -- in their 50s, 60s, and 70s -- but they rock on with glowing intensity, looking much younger (in some cases by 20 years) than they are. Every now and then a local vegan hero will drop in -- John Mackey (founder of Whole Foods), Rip Esselstyn (pioneer of the Engine 2 diet), a noted musician who will remain unnamed -- and we'll gawk in admiration. The everyday reality, though, is that a dozen or so ordinary people with whom I eat have done extraordinary things as a direct result of intelligent veganism. They've conquered obesity, chronic disease, depression, and a host of food-related disorders by exclusively eating an exciting diversity of plants. If there's one lesson I've learned by eating with seasoned vegans it is this: the diet empowers.

Beyond anecdotes, of course, there's considerable scientific evidence showing that veganism is a smart way to eat. The Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics says that a well-planned vegan (and vegetarian) diet is "healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases." This is a much more cautious assessment, however, than many studies suggest.

According to one study, "vegetarian and vegan diets are effective in treating and preventing several chronic diseases." The adaptation of a low-fat vegan diet can substantially mitigate the impacts of type 2 diabetes, rheumatoid arthritis, and Parkinson's disease. Veganism reduces the risk of colon cancer. Vegans have a better "antioxidant status" than non-vegans. Veganism is more effective at combating obesity than other prescribed diets, such as that promoted by the National Cholesterol Education Program. Veganism has been shown to lower risk factors associated with cardiac disease. As Dr. Michael Greger, director of public health for the Humane Society of the United States, explains, "A plant-based diet is like a one-stop shop against chronic diseases."

 

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2012/01/the-evidence-for-a-vegan-diet/251498/

 

 

 

But if it's all just a gigantic misinterpretation, you should probably write and tell them. Let them down gently.

[heartsfc_fan]

Weirdos.

 

I usually have meat 5 days a week. Pork, Chicken, Beef and Turkey usually. Lamb on the rare occasion when I'm out in a restaurant.

 

I would struggle with no meat

[The People's Chimp]

Not eating cheese.

 

[Gorgiewave]

Not eating cheese.

 

 

I saw your name and thought a more understanding, humane post might await me. Hard times make people colder.

[BoJack Horseman]

Not eating cheese.

 

 

It's the cow's milk Chimp, not yours. You don't have the right to take it.

[Gorgiewave]

It's the cow's milk Chimp, not yours. You don't have the right to take it.

 

I've mentioned health and my mother. I have said nothing about animal rights.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

It's the cow's milk Chimp, not yours. You don't have the right to take it.

 

Can you make cheese from human breast milk? Would that be acceptable to these crusty feckwits?

[The People's Chimp]

 

 

 

It's the cow's milk Chimp, not yours. You don't have the right to take it.

 

Makes it taste all the sweeter IMO.

 

 

 

I saw your name and thought a more understanding, humane post might await me. Hard times make people colder.

 

To be fair, I could stick being a veggie, but would miss meat, but could never be a vegan. It'd mean no (proper) pizza for starters, would have to chuck a large number of pairs of shoes and also buy a new bike saddle.

[Gorgiewave]

Makes it taste all the sweeter IMO.

 

 

 

To be fair, I could stick being a veggie, but would miss meat, but could never be a vegan. It'd mean no (proper) pizza for starters, would have to chuck a large number of pairs of shoes and also buy a new bike saddle.

 

My policy is vegan including no (added) oils unless I'm out visiting somebody or in a restaurante. I'll take a vegan option if there is one, but won't cause a hassle.

 

And maybe a monthly indulgence. I could eat proper pizza all day and is one of the few dishes I've ever learned to do well. I can include vegan cheese or just not include cheese.

[Cade]

Vegans have rutten guts. Smelliest people I have ever known.

[Creepy Lurker]

You very obviously didn' t understand my post, so I'll not be too harsh on you despite the pointlessly abrasive tone of your reply.

 

I didn't say that there was anything wrong with veganism, applied correctly. Rather, I meant that it doesn't offer any specific health benefits of its own by virtue of excluding animal products.

 

Read what you just posted again. Anecdotal evidence, given by someone with an obvious bias? Seriously?

 

Where veganism does well, it does well because of what it includes rather than what it excludes: a wide variety of fruit and vegetables provide a wide variety of micronutrients, and it's a myth that a balanced vegan diet can't provide sufficient protein, iron etc.

 

See where I'm going here? You probably don't, so I'll tell you: all of this can be done while still including meat and dairy.

 

So why do vegans so often come out better on health markers than omnivores? This is where epidemiological research comes in: studies done on populations don't control for other factors. In the 1970s, US epidemiological research showed a negative correlation between the amount of kitchen appliances in family homes and the likelihood of their teenage daughters to become pregnant. Why? Because the obvious factor of affluence wasn't taken into account...and affluent families usually have more kitchen appliances.

 

What's the relevance here? Vegans are, by definition, already paying more attention to their diet than your average Joe. They're eating a diet based on whole, minimally processed foods with lots of fruit, vegetables and fibre. It's far more difficult for them to wind up in a chronic caloric surplus. Like isn't being compared with like.

 

No research exists showing a positive benefit to a vegan diet over one involving meat and dairy after factors such as energy and micronutrient intakes have been accounted for. Feel free to try to prove me wrong on this. You'll be wasting your time, as the research doesn't exist.

 

Feel free to post some more biased articles full of anecdotal evidence. I'm sure they'll be fascinating.

[Gorgiewave]

You very obviously didn' t understand my post, so I'll not be too harsh on you despite the pointlessly abrasive tone of your reply.

 

I didn't say that there was anything wrong with veganism, applied correctly. Rather, I meant that it doesn't offer any specific health benefits of its own by virtue of excluding animal products.

 

Read what you just posted again. Anecdotal evidence, given by someone with an obvious bias? Seriously?

 

Where veganism does well, it does well because of what it includes rather than what it excludes: a wide variety of fruit and vegetables provide a wide variety of micronutrients, and it's a myth that a balanced vegan diet can't provide sufficient protein, iron etc.

 

See where I'm going here? You probably don't, so I'll tell you: all of this can be done while still including meat and dairy.

 

So why do vegans so often come out better on health markers than omnivores? This is where epidemiological research comes in: studies done on populations don't control for other factors. In the 1970s, US epidemiological research showed a negative correlation between the amount of kitchen appliances in family homes and the likelihood of their teenage daughters to become pregnant. Why? Because the obvious factor of affluence wasn't taken into account...and affluent families usually have more kitchen appliances.

 

What's the relevance here? Vegans are, by definition, already paying more attention to their diet than your average Joe. They're eating a diet based on whole, minimally processed foods with lots of fruit, vegetables and fibre. It's far more difficult for them to wind up in a chronic caloric surplus. Like isn't being compared with like.

 

No research exists showing a positive benefit to a vegan diet over one involving meat and dairy after factors such as energy and micronutrient intakes have been accounted for. Feel free to try to prove me wrong on this. You'll be wasting your time, as the research doesn't exist.

 

Feel free to post some more biased articles full of anecdotal evidence. I'm sure they'll be fascinating.

 

The health benefits of protective compounds in a plant-based diet have been linked to the prevention of cancer initiation and the retardation of cancer cell growth. Foods that are central to vegetarian diets such as whole grains, legumes, fruits, and vegetables are rich in fiber, folic acid, phytochemicals, and antioxidants.^[92?95]

In addition to the cancer-protective effect of a plant-based diet, eating red meat may contribute to cancer formation. The consumption of red meat cooked at high temperatures, diets rich in animal fat and cholesterol, or diets high in animal protein may increase the risk of developing cancer.^[99] Excessive iron is also thought to promote the formation of reactive species of free radicals that can damage cells.^{Table 1), the issue remains contentious and requires further research.}

 

^{The first highlighted sentence indicates positive benefits of plant-based nutrition. Obviously, meat-eaters might eat all these things, though they will automatically increase their calorie intake in doing so.}

 

^{The second highlighted sentence summarises positively negative aspects of meat.}

 

^{Similar points appear in other paragraphs.}

 

^{As I said in the OP, it is possible to eat badly on a vegan diet: fizzy juice, crisps, alcohol, dark chocolate, bread, etc., are all vegan. A health-conscious vegan will eat carefully. A no-animal-product vegan might not.}

 

^{http://www.medscape....rticle/763435_2}

 

[FWJ]

 

 

 

I enjoy food as well, nothing more than a big pizza or a steak.

There is a moral aspect to it for me: not just the cruelty of keeping animals, but also the damage done by deforestation to keep them. Most of the Brazilian rainforest is cleared to make grazing ground for cows. I believe that, square metre for square metre, there are more calories in growing vegetables or fruit than feeding animals (i.e., there's more nutrition in the plants covering the area needed to feed an animal than that animal provides). Which doesn't do wonders for the environment.

 

I got into this guy from listening to Bill Clinton:

 

http://www.heartattackproof.com/

 

 

I know that a vegan diet doesn't contain everything, but I take a supplement (vitamins and minerals bought in Boots) and I have, as far as I know, every nutrient.

 

If you have to take vitamin and mineral supplements it would suggest that there is something wrong with your diet.

 

As primates, humans are naturally omnivores. It's a lot easier to get first class proteins from animal sources.

[BoJack Horseman]

If our ancestors decided to be vegan, we'd still be living in caves and picking lice out each others hair.

 

What's wrong with having a steak with your red pepper hummus?

[Gorgiewave]

If you have to take vitamin and mineral supplements it would suggest that there is something wrong with your diet.

 

As primates, humans are naturally omnivores. It's a lot easier to get first class proteins from animal sources.

 

Evolution does not find the best solutions. We "naturally" get cancer, get addicted to stuff, etc. It's easier, but perfectly possible on a plant-based diet.

[Gorgiewave]

If you have to take vitamin and mineral supplements it would suggest that there is something wrong with your diet.

 

As primates, humans are naturally omnivores. It's a lot easier to get first class proteins from animal sources.

 

Vitamin B12 is not found in plants. It's better to take a supplement than eat all the meat it would take.

[Konrad von Carstein]

This could be good....CL's knowledge based stuff * versus GW's ML** style copy n paste

 

 

*as displayed in the fitness thread

 

**as displayed above