Edinburgh Trams Farce Continues

[3fingersreid]

Why would the coonsil spend all that time and money to narrow the road all the way down Leith Walk only to dig it up again to widen it for the trams extension?

For the same reason they closed hope st @ Queensferry rd then opened it again ,re closed it and then opened it again ,at great expense to the council tax payer but for no other reason than they don't plan ahead properly and don't appear to answer to anyone when money is spent unwisely

[Glottis]

Edinburgh council pointlessly wasting money? Surely not.

[Pans Jambo]

A No26 every 8 minutes that's really piss poor service.

Its not the frequency thats the issue. Its the 26 stops at every bus stop along the way & theres a stop every 100 mtrs. From Prestonpans to Princes St takes about 70 minutes to travel about 10 miles. Brutal.

[FWJ]

Drivers are much more likely to leave their cars for a tram than for a bus.

[The Real Maroonblood]

Its not the frequency thats the issue. Its the 26 stops at every bus stop along the way & theres a stop every 100 mtrs. From Prestonpans to Princes St takes about 70 minutes to travel about 10 miles. Brutal.

That's a fair point.

[Koolkeith]

Drivers are much more likely to leave their cars for a tram than for a bus.

Folk that live on the outskirts of Edinburgh. The trams benefit hardly any one that lives in the heart of the city. It's a rather expensive alternative to a perfectly good airport bus and other express buses that leave park and rides.

[Koolkeith]

Drivers are much more likely to leave their cars for a tram than for a bus.

Folk that live on the outskirts of Edinburgh. The trams benefit hardly any one that lives in the heart of the city. It's a rather expensive alternative to a perfectly good airport bus and other express buses that leave park and rides.

[frankblack]

Folk that live on the outskirts of Edinburgh. The trams benefit hardly any one that lives in the heart of the city. It's a rather expensive alternative to a perfectly good airport bus and other express buses that leave park and rides.

They are **** all use to anyone on the outskirts that isn't on the route.

 

Corstorphine and Queensferry Road are two of the busiest routes into town. The latter carries most of the traffic from Fife.

 

There isn't a chance in hell of trams going on those routes. The roads are too narrow and/or too busy.

[Hugh Phamism]

In many European cities, trams and cars share the same road space. By this I mean that the trams often use the inside or outside of a dual carrigeway. It can be very confusing for visitors to drive alongside, in front of, or behind, the trams. However, the locals seem to handle it easily.

[Chester™]

Extension likely to be blocked:

 

http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/transport/leith-walk-tram-line-extension-blocked-by-the-snp-1-3943716#axzz3r5dWVKwE

[frankblack]

Extension likely to be blocked:

 

http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/transport/leith-walk-tram-line-extension-blocked-by-the-snp-1-3943716#axzz3r5dWVKwE

 

Finally - some common sense, but it won't convince those who need a serious reality check.  We are skint - and we cannot afford to spend more money on this white elephant while paying off the debts from the first part.

[Cade]

Extension likely to be blocked:

 

http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/transport/leith-walk-tram-line-extension-blocked-by-the-snp-1-3943716#axzz3r5dWVKwE

[The Real Maroonblood]

Extension likely to be blocked:

 

http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/transport/leith-walk-tram-line-extension-blocked-by-the-snp-1-3943716#axzz3r5dWVKwE

Great news.

[Chaps]

Council set to approve trams

 

http://m.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/transport/council-set-to-approve-trams-to-newhaven-1-3951260

[Nookie Bear]

Disgusting news.

 

Never used a tram and will not use one...why should I?

[EIEIO]

Disgusting news.

 

Never used a tram and will not use one...why should I?

Both of my daughters were tram haters when i took them on the tram they both said that we should build more tram lines. They live in corstorphine so neither will be regular users, give it a try open your mind.

 

Sent from my ZTE Blade Q Mini using Tapatalk

[Optimus Prime]

Council set to approve trams

 

http://m.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/transport/council-set-to-approve-trams-to-newhaven-1-3951260

The correct decision for the long term benefit of the city.

[Nookie Bear]

Both of my daughters were tram haters when i took them on the tram they both said that we should build more tram lines. They live in corstorphine so neither will be regular users, give it a try open your mind.

 

Sent from my ZTE Blade Q Mini using Tapatalk

 

What changed their minds?

 

MY tone was wrong - I meant it to say I have no need to use trams because I live nowehere near the route. But if I had the choice, I would probably use a bus anyway.

Edited November 18, 2015 by Nookie Bear

[Cade]

The correct decision for the long term benefit of the city.

Aye, after we finish paying the original ?1billion plus this new ?160million back after a few decades, we'll be laughing.

That is, of course, if the trams are still running after all that time.

 

[frankblack]

Council set to approve trams

 

http://m.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/transport/council-set-to-approve-trams-to-newhaven-1-3951260

 

My reading of that is that they have to build a business case first and guarantee they have the funds coming in from LRT dividends.

 

If the LRT dividends aren't going to be what they need, or they aren't going to get enough punters to justify the extension then the game is up.

[EIEIO]

What changed their minds?

 

MY tone was wrong - I meant it to say I have no need to use trams because I live nowehere near the route. But if I had the choice, I would probably use a bus anyway.

They thought it was smoother and faster , to be fair at haymarket etc it is as trams get priority at traffic lights. Stops are less frequent unlike some bus routes which seem to stop every hundred yards eg in St Johns Road. With the amount of new houses springing up the roads will only get more congested so more tram and train routes will be needed to keep Edinburgh moving.

 

Sent from my ZTE Blade Q Mini using Tapatalk

[Optimus Prime]

Aye, after we finish paying the original ?1billion plus this new ?160million back after a few decades, we'll be laughing.

That is, of course, if the trams are still running after all that time.

 

 

A larger network means more passengers, which means more revenue, which means paying it off quicker.

 

You'll notice I said the longer term benefit of the city, not the long term benefit of paying off the tram project. This will stimulate grow along the Edinburgh waterfront attracting new investment. to the city and give the Leith area a huge shot in the arm.

[Nookie Bear]

A larger network means more passengers, which means more revenue, which means paying it off quicker.

 

You'll notice I said the longer term benefit of the city, not the long term benefit of paying off the tram project. This will stimulate grow along the Edinburgh waterfront attracting new investment. to the city and give the Leith area a huge shot in the arm.

 

Is replacing buses with trams a proven method of stimulating growth in a an area that needs regeneration?*

Or is that just marketing speak for "build it, and they will come"?

 

 

(*I thought Leith was already undergoing a renaissance, or was that just confirmation of a PR myth?)

[Optimus Prime]

Is replacing buses with trams a proven method of stimulating growth in a an area that needs regeneration?*

Or is that just marketing speak for "build it, and they will come"?

 

 

(*I thought Leith was already undergoing a renaissance, or was that just confirmation of a PR myth?)

 

Yes, do a quick google search on Crossrail in London to see the regeneration benefits public transport infrastructure brings to cities.

[reaths17]

Is replacing buses with trams a proven method of stimulating growth in a an area that needs regeneration?*

Or is that just marketing speak for "build it, and they will come"?

 

 

(*I thought Leith was already undergoing a renaissance, or was that just confirmation of a PR myth?)

indeed.

 

the tram wasn't required before and an extension isn't required now, Leith was already having a renaissance before the trams came about so why add to a debt to help pay the original debt off when it wasn't required in the 1st place

[reaths17]

Yes, do a quick google search on Crossrail in London to see the regeneration benefits public transport infrastructure brings to cities.

buses are a public transport infrastructure, you work with that and get a Leith, that done ok without trams to regenerate itself, it's having the right people making the moves that better a service not fanciful schemes. the Edinburgh bus service is reguarded as one of the best in Britain, instead of disrupting it with folies we should make the most of it.

[Nookie Bear]

indeed.

 

the tram wasn't required before and an extension isn't required now, Leith was already having a renaissance before the trams came about so why add to a debt to help pay the original debt off when it wasn't required in the 1st place

 

Or maybe The People's Republic of Leith can pay for it...

[Seymour M Hersh]

Drivers are much more likely to leave their cars for a tram than for a bus.

 

You're right. Drivers in say Colinton or Oxgangs are definitely going to leave their cars at home and travel by tram.

[Optimus Prime]

buses are a public transport infrastructure, you work with that and get a Leith, that done ok without trams to regenerate itself, it's having the right people making the moves that better a service not fanciful schemes. the Edinburgh bus service is reguarded as one of the best in Britain, instead of disrupting it with folies we should make the most of it.

 

If you'd care to take a look further back in this thread I have answered these points regarding how buses and trams function together previously.

[Seymour M Hersh]

My reading of that is that they have to build a business case first and guarantee they have the funds coming in from LRT dividends.

 

If the LRT dividends aren't going to be what they need, or they aren't going to get enough punters to justify the extension then the game is up.

 

They have to be prevented from extending the white elephant.

[reaths17]

If you'd care to take a look further back in this thread I have answered these points regarding how buses and trams function together previously.

did you answer why Leith renaissance was successful without trams and every other form of regeneration will be an utter shambolic chaos without trams

[Nookie Bear]

You're right. Drivers in say Colinton or Oxgangs are definitely going to leave their cars at home and travel by tram.

 

Drivers actually come in from out of town places like penicuik and park in Fairmilehead and Oxgangs to then get the bus.

 

It isn;t the tram network within Edinburgh that needs extending, it is transport links and park&ride availability to out of town developments. Take Bonnyrigg as an example: it is undergoing massive growth but the bus service remains resolutely pish. What use is a tram extension on top of existing bus routes to them?

[Optimus Prime]

did you answer why Leith renaissance was successful without trams and every other form of regeneration will be an utter shambolic chaos without trams

 

The last time I looked the waterfront development had stalled due to the economic climate at the time. This was factored into the decision to pull this section of the route. The economic climate has started to turn, development is picking up and the tram route is back on the agenda.

[FWJ]

You're right. Drivers in say Colinton or Oxgangs are definitely going to leave their cars at home and travel by tram.

?

Erm, if or when a tramline reaches these places then, if they are like other places worldwide, the people that live there are more likely to leave their car for a tram than a bus.

[FWJ]

The last time I looked the waterfront development had stalled due to the economic climate at the time. This was factored into the decision to pull this section of the route. The economic climate has started to turn, development is picking up and the tram route is back on the agenda.

And the population of Edinburgh is forecast to grow by 130,000 over the next 25 years. These people will have to travel about the city somehow. I've read elsewhere that some bus routes are nearing saturation. Housing near tramlines should prove especially popular as evidence from Dublin suggests housing near their LUAS lines as increasing in value more than that further away.

[reaths17]

The last time I looked the waterfront development had stalled due to the economic climate at the time. This was factored into the decision to pull this section of the route. The economic climate has started to turn, development is picking up and the tram route is back on the agenda.

the waterfront stalled due to money so they stopped the tram from reaching it, really. but if it wasn't for the financial climate it would have continued right, so the tram woulda continued as well then ? and it had nothing to do with the only part of the white elephant built had almost bankrupted the city and there wasn't a bolt left had nothing to do with it, is this correct ?

[Nookie Bear]

The last time I looked the waterfront development had stalled due to the economic climate at the time. This was factored into the decision to pull this section of the route. The economic climate has started to turn, development is picking up and the tram route is back on the agenda.

 

But even as that economic climate stalled, the trams forged ahead into an economic black hole and were untouchable.

 

But I can now look forward to all our services being invested to as the economy starts to turn (?)

[Optimus Prime]

And the population of Edinburgh is forecast to grow by 130,000 over the next 25 years. These people will have to travel about the city somehow. I've read elsewhere that some bus routes are nearing saturation. Housing near tramlines should prove especially popular as evidence from Dublin suggests housing near their LUAS lines as increasing in value more than that further away.

 

This guy gets it.

[Nookie Bear]

?

Erm, if or when a tramline reaches these places then, if they are like other places worldwide, the people that live there are more likely to leave their car for a tram than a bus.

 

 

 

And the population of Edinburgh is forecast to grow by 130,000 over the next 25 years. These people will have to travel about the city somehow. I've read elsewhere that some bus routes are nearing saturation. Housing near tramlines should prove especially popular as evidence from Dublin suggests housing near their LUAS lines as increasing in value more than that further away.

 

Is the agenda to have trams coming up through Morningside to Oxgangs and Colinton then?

 

If the population is to grow by 130k over 25 years then we need to be focusing on housing, health and education, not trams (because we have a good bus service)

[Nookie Bear]

And the population of Edinburgh is forecast to grow by 130,000 over the next 25 years. These people will have to travel about the city somehow. I've read elsewhere that some bus routes are nearing saturation. Housing near tramlines should prove especially popular as evidence from Dublin suggests housing near their LUAS lines as increasing in value more than that further away.

 

Actually I can see that to be the case sometimes but that is on a route that is not, as far as I am aware, on the tram route plan.

 

Access to the Gyle development is disgraceful as well and should have been sorted years ago. In fact,l the wealthy companies that are situated there should have taken the matter into their own hands and provided alternatives for their staff.

[Nookie Bear]

This guy gets it.

 

Yes, he does.

 

House values are more important than basic services.

[Stuart Lyon]

The projected revenues from the extended vanity tram project are expected to turn it into a profit making system overnight but Councillor Burns won't reveal these projections as they are commercially sensitive! How can they be commercially sensitive when there isn't a competing tram service?

 

Why not ask the people of Edinburgh of they want more money wasted own this vanity project especially when it seems that the bus service will be robbed of money to subsidise it!

[Stuart Lyon]

Nookie Bear - when BT and others chose to relocate to Edinburgh Park circa 2000/01 it was on the back of a proposed rapid transport system I think was called CREST or something like that. Needless to say it never got built. I know the vanity tram passes through there now but its was 14 years to late.

[Poseidon]

My reading of that is that they have to build a business case first and guarantee they have the funds coming in from LRT dividends.

 

If the LRT dividends aren't going to be what they need, or they aren't going to get enough punters to justify the extension then the game is up.

That's how I read it too.

[HaymarketJambo]

The projected revenues from the extended vanity tram project are expected to turn it into a profit making system overnight but Councillor Burns won't reveal these projections as they are commercially sensitive! How can they be commercially sensitive when there isn't a competing tram service?

 

Why not ask the people of Edinburgh of they want more money wasted own this vanity project especially when it seems that the bus service will be robbed of money to subsidise it!

 

 Got to agree with you on the above post.

 

My view is that we have still some of the old Edinburgh circle line left I think, for example just be before the Roseburn Bridge, I think it's Cycle track, does that not go out East, why not use that?

 

But like Stuart says above we have a great bus service, maybe we can look at the tram project again 15/20 year's down the line, pardon the pun?      

[Coco]

There was no doubt about this decision.

 

The executives and Councillors are desperate to build more on street railways and are cheered by tramspotters and leech consultants.

 

The Council believe it is more important to spend money on more tram lines prior to the public enquiry even asking any questions of them.  What is the point in an enquiry?  

 

It is worth remembering how many cuts (including the public toilets, sacking thousands of Council staff, maintenance on schools (even following tragedies)) are already required just to pay for the borrowing on the current bit of tram line.  This decision will take ?25m from Lothian Buses and cause at least a further ?10m per year of cuts to just pay for the borrowing on this new bit of line.  Worth also remembering that Council tax in Edinburgh takes in just about ?200m the last time I looked.  Lunacy.

[Don Dan]

I copied this from the EEN as it gives a good look at the finacial situation as it stands.

 

In response to Lawler's request below. This is as concise as I could make it! Hopefully makes sense

 

After a year of trading CEC / TfE / Cllr Hinds were remarkably scant with details how Edinburgh Trams performed. The best provided was,

"Ticket revenue was three per cent higher than the ?7.949m target set for the tram, but the service was still expected to make a loss of almost ?1.3m this year."

http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/transport/leith-tram-case-stronger-after-first-year-1-3787041#ixzz3rqGnIylu

 

My P&L to "substantiate" this claim

Ticket Revenue ?8,187,470 (the 3% up on ?7.949m target)

Expenses ?9,306,001

Loss (?1,118,531)

 

- the expenses are taken from a CEC 'Budget' paper in 2013;

- revenue is actual ? based on above

 

This is close enough. In fact ? using the ?7.949m ? it is a Loss of ?1.3 million exactly.

 

Expenses of ?9,306,001 DO NOT INCLUDE

Loan Interest 7,300,000 (oft quoted ?20,000 per day @ 365 days)

Quite how "Loan Interest" cannot be considered an Operational Expense for Edinburgh Trams, I cannot quite fathom.

The Loan Interest is being kept "off book".

Paid by CEC i.e. the Taxpayer; not by Edinburgh Trams!

 

So ACTUAL FIRST YEAR LOSS is ?8,418,531 at least.

 

This is further corroborated by the first official Edinburgh Tram accounts (for the 7 month period to 31/12/14)

https://edinburghtrams.com/uploads/general/Statutory_Accounts_Edinburgh_Trams_Ltd.pdf

 

Revenue ?6,426,654

Expenses ?6,990,673

Loss (?564,019)

 

Take my P&L figures and multiply by seven twelfths (trams started end May 2014 to financial year 31/12/14). These figures are not wildly out taking into account initial interest, flurry, novelty value, concerts and Celtic matches at Murrayfield just after the trams went live.

 

Regardless - what is worrying is REVENUE DIFFERENCE. Take all the unequivocal figures

12 months ?8,187,470

7 months ?6,426,654

MEANING

5 months ?1,760,816

 

After the initial "novelty value" etc over 7 months Edinburgh Trams took barely a quarter of what it did over the next 5 months (even through "6 Nations" etc).

One year of trading won't give a complete picture of "regular Revenue Stream", but that statistic would worry the hell out of me!

 

Oh.

And that's still not including "Loan Interest" of ?7,300,000 annually?

[3fingersreid]

The figures that Dannie Boy has put up( if accurate and I've know reason to doubt them ) is absolutely frightening , the city has to be looking at increasing council tax to pay for the cost of what was a great idea totally and utterly mismanaged and left us near to being bankrupt .

 

So what would we rather have housing stock being habitable , schools fit for our children, care for the elderly , sick or vulnerable or an increase in our debt for an extension of a tram line ?

 

Still I suppose it will be carried given that sir Tom Farmer says so ( but he's been known to be wrong before )

Edited November 18, 2015 by 3fingersreid

[Nookie Bear]

Nookie Bear - when BT and others chose to relocate to Edinburgh Park circa 2000/01 it was on the back of a proposed rapid transport system I think was called CREST or something like that. Needless to say it never got built. I know the vanity tram passes through there now but its was 14 years to late.

 

Oh well, at least they have the number 18 bus trundling through every hour

[Optimus Prime]

the waterfront stalled due to money so they stopped the tram from reaching it, really. but if it wasn't for the financial climate it would have continued right, so the tram woulda continued as well then ? and it had nothing to do with the only part of the white elephant built had almost bankrupted the city and there wasn't a bolt left had nothing to do with it, is this correct ?

 

Have you heard of a thing called developer contributions? I'll let you look it up.

 

But even as that economic climate stalled, the trams forged ahead into an economic black hole and were untouchable.

 

But I can now look forward to all our services being invested to as the economy starts to turn (?)

Yes because you still have to develop your infrastructure regardless of the financial climate. Phase 1 of the tram was a priority for the cities development and growth.

 

Yes, he does.

 

House values are more important than basic services.

 

Basic services like providing the city with a light rapid transit system.