Scottish independence and devolution superthread

[ToadKiller Dog]

Just shows what a threat the big man is , he is taking all the air space while the battle for the leadership of the Labour Scottish branch is taking a distant second place ( except for the daily retards backing of honest Jim Murphy )

Some taking head on the politics show on the Beeb commented about Labours view on Salmond " is he not dead yet " charming stuff .

[TheMaganator]

Glad to hear you make your thoughts public as to what a witch that woman was though.

 

It's encouraging to hear modern Conservatives excorcise the demons that haunt their party.  If only your leadership were as bold to stop the hagiographies and tell it like it was.

 

I see even the OECD have come to the conclusion that trickle down economics were/are shite.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/dec/09/revealed-wealth-gap-oecd-report

I think you have misrepresented my comment, Boris. I think you have done so on purpose too. 

[Boris]

I think you have misrepresented my comment, Boris. I think you have done so on purpose too. 

 

[Don Draper]

Glad to hear you make your thoughts public as to what a witch that woman was though.

 

It's encouraging to hear modern Conservatives exorcise the demons that haunt their party.  If only your leadership were as bold to stop the hagiographies and tell it like it was.

 

 

 

   Beautifully done, Boris.

[TheMaganator]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/SNP/11281111/Alex-Salmond-refuses-to-repay-65000-golden-goodbye.html

 

I see he is still refusing to give back the ?65k he claimed from the taxpayer as a resettlement golden goodbye once he left in 2010. 

 

That's after claiming ?116k in 2008 for just 6 visits to parliament. http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/alex-salmond-claimed-116k-expenses-972571

 

He really had his nose on the  trough, didn't he. 

[Boris]

   Beautifully done, Boris.

 

[Cade]

Donates his ?42,000 annual First Minister pension to charity.
Will donate one of his two MSP/MP wages to charity.

 

Haters moaning coz he kept ?25k for himself which he was entitled to do.

Edited December 9, 2014 by Cade

[TheMaganator]

Donates his ?42,000 annual First Minister pension to charity.

Will donate one of his two MSP/MP wages to charity.

 

Haters moaning coz he kept ?25k for himself which he was entitled to do.

 

I have no problem with people claiming what they are entitled to. But Salmond constantly banged the drum about Westminster and its elites, it being a hive of corruption etc - and the 45 bang on about it too. Here we have a man who has earned handsomely from the taxpayer. 

 

He's said he'll delay in claiming his FM pension. He has said he'll donate one of his two salaries MP/MSP to charity - do you think it would have been right if he had kept them both? I suppose if he is doing one job properly it will be pretty hard to do the other properly as well.

 

I am just interested in what his fanboys think of it all. I am sure it may not sit comfortably with some - whether or not they would ever admit it is a different story. 

[dc-jambo]

Good story here about how Labour and Tory activists are now actually the same people

 

Highly pertinent to some regular posters on this board, I'd say:

 

http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-conservative-and-labour-party/

 

These are the people, btw, who read the Daily Mail but consider Wings 'extreme'

 

:sunny:

[TheMaganator]

Good story here about how Labour and Tory activists are now actually the same people

 

Highly pertinent to some regular posters on this board, I'd say:

 

http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-conservative-and-labour-party/

 

These are the people, btw, who read the Daily Mail but consider Wings 'extreme'

 

:sunny:

Wings is extreme. He is also a vile bully. 

 

He could have shaded her picture out, or her name out. But, no. He puts it there so the cybernats that read his bile can harass her.

 

Stay classy, Wings.  

[jambo1185]

Good story here about how Labour and Tory activists are now actually the same people

 

Highly pertinent to some regular posters on this board, I'd say:

 

http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-conservative-and-labour-party/

 

These are the people, btw, who read the Daily Mail but consider Wings 'extreme'

 

:sunny:

 

Is this along the lines of how Labour for Independence and the SNP were often the same people (i.e. people pretending to be members of one cause when they were actually members of another)? Or has she just, for whatever reason, decided to flip her allegiance from blue to red? If it's the latter, then does flipping from Orange or Red to SNP yellow mean SNP/Lib Dem/Labour are all one and the same too?

 

When it all comes down to it, does any of this really matter? Is there any need to post this girl's photo and name so she can be subjected to online abuse for little more than having a political opinion? I thought the referendum was supposed to teach us that everyone in Scotland having an opinion was a wonderful thing? Or is that only true if they agree with you?

Edited December 9, 2014 by jambo1185

[Randle P McMurphy]

I'm no salmond fanboy but it's clear that your hatred of him blinds any reasoned view.

 

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

[TheMaganator]

I'm no salmond fanboy but it's clear that your hatred of him blinds any reasoned view.

 

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

Reasoned view on what?

[djf]

As an aside, why on earth is the Labour leadership contest taking so long. How much time do they need to pontificate over how they might honestly vote Findlay and old Labour before selling out for streak of piss, bullying career politician, Murphy because even after all this time they still don't get it.

 

Reminds me of when a struggling football team sacks their manager and promises a rigorous recruitment campaign only to 10 dropped points later employ the initial bookies favourite.

[Guest Trapper John]

It is genuinely interesting from an amateur psephologist's point of view - and also a fascinating study for political scientists.

 

The full polls in Scotland show a radical shift in support for the SNP and Labour for Westminster elections following the referendum. The sub-samples from the UK-wide Populus polling show a shift on a significant but smaller scale - but their polls tend to overestimate the level of Labour and Conservative support compared to other pollsters.

 

Either way the shift is interesting. And then there's the question of whether it can be maintained through to May. I think it can, but the SNP have been in territory like this before and didn't get the breakthrough they expected, so I may well be wrong.

 

Thanks Ully for your usual fine analysis.

 

I followed your posts during the referendum and they were excellent and just about always right!

 

I personally don't think the SNP 'bounce' will last. But I suppose we'll all have to wait and see.

[JamboX2]

As an aside, why on earth is the Labour leadership contest taking so long. How much time do they need to pontificate over how they might honestly vote Findlay and old Labour before selling out for streak of piss, bullying career politician, Murphy because even after all this time they still don't get it.

 

Reminds me of when a struggling football team sacks their manager and promises a rigorous recruitment campaign only to 10 dropped points later employ the initial bookies favourite.

To allow debate and discussion of the issues?

 

Findlay is likeable. If he fails to win to be leader then he'll be made a very senior shadow cabinet minister - Finance perhaps.

 

The key thing about what is next for Scottish Labour is getting the right team in place at Holyrood. I'll stake my money on it but Pearson, Gray, Baker and a few others will get emptied. Marra, Dugdale, Findlay, Boyack, Smith and Baillie due to good cover performances at Holyrood will all be in top portfolios - Finance, Health, Education, Justice and Infrastructure going forward.

 

I cant help but feel they need weight and a big name. Findlay is like Gray and Lamont - who? - Murphy is well known and unlike Findlay won't alienate the middle class Salmond won over. Still, I don't regret backing Findlay with my vote.

[Gorgiewave]

To allow debate and discussion of the issues?

 

Findlay is likeable. If he fails to win to be leader then he'll be made a very senior shadow cabinet minister - Finance perhaps.

 

The key thing about what is next for Scottish Labour is getting the right team in place at Holyrood. I'll stake my money on it but Pearson, Gray, Baker and a few others will get emptied. Marra, Dugdale, Findlay, Boyack, Smith and Baillie due to good cover performances at Holyrood will all be in top portfolios - Finance, Health, Education, Justice and Infrastructure going forward.

 

I cant help but feel they need weight and a big name. Findlay is like Gray and Lamont - who? - Murphy is well known and unlike Findlay won't alienate the middle class Salmond won over. Still, I don't regret backing Findlay with my vote.

 

Do you think Gordon Brown will have any role?

[JKBMod 1]

No personal comments about each other please, or else members will be given warnings and possibly suspensions.

[jack D and coke]

Politician in running for election shocker.

 

Tbf, can understand exactly why those who disagree with his politics would much rather he just quietly disappeared. Only goes to show how effective he is.

 

And suddenly PMQs are about to get a whole lot more interesting...

Yep. I'm not a huge fan of Eck's but it does make me laugh how much he trolls the life out of people tbh especially anybody or anything to do with labour. He really has them on the run, they just do not know what to do with him and for that I love it. I only wish he'd went for some big labour seat, if only Brown was still around I'd have loved to see his coupon if Salmond skelped his arse.

 

I also believe he's doing it for good enough reasons, why should he disappear? If the people vote, or don't vote for him then surely that is the barometer of whether he should pack it in or not.

[Guest Trapper John]

Yep. I'm not a huge fan of Eck's but it does make me laugh how much he trolls the life out of people tbh especially anybody or anything to do with labour. He really has them on the run, they just do not know what to do with him and for that I love it. I only wish he'd went for some big labour seat, if only Brown was still around I'd have loved to see his coupon if Salmond skelped his arse.

 

I also believe he's doing it for good enough reasons, why should he disappear? If the people vote, or don't vote for him then surely that is the barometer of whether he should pack it in or not.

 In years to come a lot of people are going to look back and cringe over the adulation they have shown Salmond. He's nothing more than a one trick opportunist extremist on par with Farage.

 

No policies, no integrity, no clue. Salmond/Farage. Two cheeks from the same arse.

[Randle P McMurphy]

Reasoned view on what?

Reasoned view on what he does rather than who he is

[jack D and coke]

In years to come a lot of people are going to look back and cringe over the adulation they have shown Salmond. He's nothing more than a one trick opportunist extremist on par with Farage.

 

No policies, no integrity, no clue. Salmond/Farage. Two cheeks from the same arse.

I'm anything but showing him adulation and tbh I don't see that many similarities with Farage either. Farage is a little englander who is playing to the crowd with regards immigration how is Salmond like him? Salmond goes around kicking lumps out of labour and anyone in scotland who can boot their arses about the place is a top man as far as im concerned, I absolutely loathe them.

 

Labour has held this country back for decades and it was also them who started the Tory bashing and the Tory hating that now seems irreversible. Salmond, Farage whoever you want to name are all here because of the Labour Party imo. The referendum was labours fault because they know not what they are, who they stand for or what it is exactly they're trying to achieve. They pussy around the Tories without offering anything like an alternative and deserve the routing that I sincerely hope they are going to get. Labour has taken scotland for granted for over 50 years and they don't know what to do anymore because they are controlled by another party that doesn't represent the scots they promised to represent and Salmond has walked right into the gaping chasm they left.

 

Opportunist extremist? How is that? I think the Nats have shown they can govern and govern fairly well being honest. Salmond doesn't have to answer to anyone down south like labour, conservatives or liberals so therefore uses that to his advantage. Wouldn't be like a politician to do that now would it....

[JamboX2]

I'm anything but showing him adulation and tbh I don't see that many similarities with Farage either. Farage is a little englander who is playing to the crowd with regards immigration how is Salmond like him? Salmond goes around kicking lumps out of labour and anyone in scotland who can boot their arses about the place is a top man as far as im concerned, I absolutely loathe them.

Labour has held this country back for decades and it was also them who started the Tory bashing and the Tory hating that now seems irreversible. Salmond, Farage whoever you want to name are all here because of the Labour Party imo. The referendum was labours fault because they know not what they are, who they stand for or what it is exactly they're trying to achieve. They pussy around the Tories without offering anything like an alternative and deserve the routing that I sincerely hope they are going to get. Labour has taken scotland for granted for over 50 years and they don't know what to do anymore because they are controlled by another party that doesn't represent the scots they promised to represent and Salmond has walked right into the gaping chasm they left.

Opportunist extremist? How is that? I think the Nats have shown they can govern and govern fairly well being honest. Salmond doesn't have to answer to anyone down south like labour, conservatives or liberals so therefore uses that to his advantage. Wouldn't be like a politician to do that now would it....

Salmond and the SNP took advantage of one dreadful campaign at Holyrood. It's forgotten a lot that Salmond only won by one seat in 2007. An election where some seats had bigger numbers of spoiled ballots than the winning majorities. He won 2011 after Labour trounced a Salmond poll lead in 2010. Little remembered now. But Labour in Scotland came from behind to win in 2010. Winning a seat back they lost in a by-election in the lead into 2010 in Glasgow East.

 

The issue in Scotland is a lack of wanting to be pluralistic in politics. We seem to cli to one group or party for extended periods of time. The SNP have been good managing Scotland. But the nation in many ways has stagnated and in others gone backwards. Their great achievement has been to give the impression of forward movement. There's been little. Issues in the NHS and education show this.

 

Labour was lazy in Scotland. Complacent event, but it's issues at Holyrood go back to Dewar and he McConnell/McLeish arguments after Dewar died. Not to mention Dewars strict vetting of candidates when leader meant a diluted talent pool. Literally. It's not about answering to anyone. Labour, LibDem and Tories in Scotland all adhere to and apply different policies in Scotland to elsewhere. It's ture and disengenuous to say otherwise.

 

Your point on Scots it's no longer representing? Which Scots? The radical left wingers who want independence or middle Scotland with the small c Conservatives? Win the latter and you can win in Scotland, win the former and you're a rump party.

 

The SNP never won becuase of principles or fairness or bother hood and egalitarian ideals. They won because they cut taxes for the Middle class and guaranteed them more no charge benefits than they'd had before, whilst cutting services the poorest relied on. It's all very Tory that to me.

[TheMaganator]

Salmond and the SNP took advantage of one dreadful campaign at Holyrood. It's forgotten a lot that Salmond only won by one seat in 2007. An election where some seats had bigger numbers of spoiled ballots than the winning majorities. He won 2011 after Labour trounced a Salmond poll lead in 2010. Little remembered now. But Labour in Scotland came from behind to win in 2010. Winning a seat back they lost in a by-election in the lead into 2010 in Glasgow East.

 

The issue in Scotland is a lack of wanting to be pluralistic in politics. We seem to cli to one group or party for extended periods of time. The SNP have been good managing Scotland. But the nation in many ways has stagnated and in others gone backwards. Their great achievement has been to give the impression of forward movement. There's been little. Issues in the NHS and education show this.

 

Labour was lazy in Scotland. Complacent event, but it's issues at Holyrood go back to Dewar and he McConnell/McLeish arguments after Dewar died. Not to mention Dewars strict vetting of candidates when leader meant a diluted talent pool. Literally. It's not about answering to anyone. Labour, LibDem and Tories in Scotland all adhere to and apply different policies in Scotland to elsewhere. It's ture and disengenuous to say otherwise.

 

Your point on Scots it's no longer representing? Which Scots? The radical left wingers who want independence or middle Scotland with the small c Conservatives? Win the latter and you can win in Scotland, win the former and you're a rump party.

 

The SNP never won becuase of principles or fairness or bother hood and egalitarian ideals. They won because they cut taxes for the Middle class and guaranteed them more no charge benefits than they'd had before, whilst cutting services the poorest relied on. It's all very Tory that to me.

Your last paragraph is spot on. http://m.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/billion-pounds-cash-to-fight-poverty-disappears-1-3159791

 

Handed out benefits to the middle classes whilst those they claim to support were left to suffer - then had the cheek to blame Westminster.

 

Like I said - the greatest trick they played was convincing traditional labour voters that they were a left wing party. And their supporters have the cheek to call labour the red Tories?!

[Pans Jambo]

Glad he's decided to go there and he will win the constituency vote as well. Who would bet against him?

 

The ruling elites are very worried. Not only do they have to contend with UKIP and the BNP but now an additional threat from the North to upset their wee club. Polls are saying Scotland will be an SNP whitewash come the election and its easy to see why given the alternatives up here.

 

Good on you Alex, get yersel in there and shake things up. That lot have had it too good for too long and it's time the London ruling classes got a good swift "boot in the baws".

 

There is no man better for this than wee Eck IMO. 

 

Just need the MSM to take a more "impartial view" now (OK, asking for too much there).

[Pans Jambo]

Your last paragraph is spot on. http://m.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/billion-pounds-cash-to-fight-poverty-disappears-1-3159791

 

Handed out benefits to the middle classes whilst those they claim to support were left to suffer - then had the cheek to blame Westminster.

 

Like I said - the greatest trick they played was convincing traditional labour voters that they were a left wing party. And their supporters have the cheek to call labour the red Tories?!

What? Alex Thatcher is it?

 

Get a grip, apart from you continually bleating on about the council tax freeze what other policies have they enforced that would lead you to believe they are a "right wing" party?

 

Pot/kettle

 

What you and folk like you dont like is that its no longer a 2 or even a 3 party race anymore and the new number 4 party is number 1 in Scotland and very soon to be number 3 in the UK.

[jambo1185]

Glad he's decided to go there and he will win the constituency vote as well. Who would bet against him?

 

The ruling elites are very worried. Not only do they have to contend with UKIP and the BNP but now an additional threat from the North to upset their wee club. Polls are saying Scotland will be an SNP whitewash come the election and its easy to see why given the alternatives up here.

 

Good on you Alex, get yersel in there and shake things up. That lot have had it too good for too long and it's time the London ruling classes got a good swift "boot in the baws".

 

There is no man better for this than wee Eck IMO. 

 

Just need the MSM to take a more "impartial view" now (OK, asking for too much there).

 

How much of a boot in the baws did Eck give Westminster last time he was there? He didn't shake anything up. Any power he has this time will be down to the number of MPs the SNP sends, but whether that contingent is led by Eck or Robertson or someone else won't make any difference in my view. If they have the numbers they can have a little fun irrespective (although it's questionable how much power they will actually have as discussed above given they won't be voting on English/rUK issues as a matter of policy, and a (minority?) Labour government is likely to be able to get enough support from other parties to get UK-wide legislation over the line without having to bend over backwards to please the SNP).

 

Totally agree he will easily win Gordon. Westminster don't have to, and never have had to, deal with the BNP, who have never won a seat and are fading into obscurity. Time will tell on UKIP but even the most positive projections have them at about half a dozen seats, most pollsters are expecting zero.

[Dirty Deeds]

It's going to be interesting. SNP likely taking Labour seats here and the Greens and Ukip splitting Labour and Tory votes in England.

 

Cannot see an outright majority so the horse trading will be fascinating.

 

Democracy eh.

[Pans Jambo]

How much of a boot in the baws did Eck give Westminster last time he was there? He didn't shake anything up. Any power he has this time will be down to the number of MPs the SNP sends, but whether that contingent is led by Eck or Robertson or someone else won't make any difference in my view. If they have the numbers they can have a little fun irrespective (although it's questionable how much power they will actually have as discussed above given they won't be voting on English/rUK issues as a matter of policy, and a (minority?) Labour government is likely to be able to get enough support from other parties to get UK-wide legislation over the line without having to bend over backwards to please the SNP).

 

Totally agree he will easily win Gordon. Westminster don't have to, and never have had to, deal with the BNP, who have never won a seat and are fading into obscurity. Time will tell on UKIP but even the most positive projections have them at about half a dozen seats, most pollsters are expecting zero.

Times have changed. Last time he was there the SNP were a relatively small party both here and down there. Cant say the same now and your right, it will depend on how many seats are returned but according to the polls, that should be a lot more than they have currently. another poster mentions no majority and so if the horse trading does start, you cant say the SNP wont be involved if the polls are correct. The privileged career politicians are worried. And so they should be.

[jack D and coke]

What? Alex Thatcher is it?

 

Get a grip, apart from you continually bleating on about the council tax freeze what other policies have they enforced that would lead you to believe they are a "right wing" party?

 

Pot/kettle

 

What you and folk like you dont like is that its no longer a 2 or even a 3 party race anymore and the new number 4 party is number 1 in Scotland and very soon to be number 3 in the UK.

The only people who want Salmond to go away are the people who fear him, especially labour. He and the SNP have the beating of them all over the place now and well they know it. He mocks them, he laughs at them and his and the SNP's popularity grows.

 

Still they play the man, still they just want him to disappear so they can hoover up the labour zombies again filling their heads with complete nonsense about what they'll do when they've done basically diddly squat for half a century. Labour people are seeing through the facade these days.

 

Labour are shiteing it frankly. They are becoming the new Tories in scotland.

 

I'm absolutely lapping it up myself.

[Boris]

 

Do people vote snp in belief it's the left wing party that they crave or is they believe it will lead to change that may result in left wing politics in Scotland?

 

 

I voted YES because I wanted a reboot of the Scottish Political System.  I was saying to a friend last night how detached I feel from the Westminster system.  My hope was that in a redrawn Scottish system, Labour would return to its traditional roots.

 

Are the SNP left wing?  Not outrageously, but I'd see them as on a par with the Lib Dems when Charles Kennedy was leader.  Left(ish) of centre.  Which is further left than Labour.  Scottish Labour may want to reclaim their leftist credentials, but until the UK party does so (ain't gonna happen anytime soon) then it's pointless.

[TheMaganator]

What? Alex Thatcher is it?

 

Get a grip, apart from you continually bleating on about the council tax freeze what other policies have they enforced that would lead you to believe they are a "right wing" party?

 

Pot/kettle

 

What you and folk like you dont like is that its no longer a 2 or even a 3 party race anymore and the new number 4 party is number 1 in Scotland and very soon to be number 3 in the UK.

Tuition fees - benefits the middle classes disproportionately.

 

His plan to cut corporation tax.

 

Your assertions about why I don't like them is nonsense. I don't like them because they are nationalist, separatists and hellbent on dismantling the UK. I'd have no issue with strong parties other than lab/Tory/lib Dems.

 

I just don't like the rise of the SNP and UKIP given what they principally stand for. And in the SNP's case their supporters do not challenge or criticise what their leadership do.

[TheMaganator]

Times have changed. Last time he was there the SNP were a relatively small party both here and down there. Cant say the same now and your right, it will depend on how many seats are returned but according to the polls, that should be a lot more than they have currently. another poster mentions no majority and so if the horse trading does start, you cant say the SNP wont be involved if the polls are correct. The privileged career politicians are worried. And so they should be.

Salmond was an economist & has spent the last few decades in politics.

 

Sturgeon was a lawyer and has spent longer in politics than she worked as a lawyer.

 

What are those two if not elite and career politicians?

[dobmisterdobster]

Tuition fees - benefits the middle classes disproportionately.

State funding for higher education is not a right-wing policy.

 

His plan to cut corporation tax.

The SNP want the majority of taxes and welfare powers devolved.

 

And in the SNP's case their supporters do not challenge or criticise what their leadership do.

Scottish independence/Home rule is the main reason I support the SNP but I happen to agree with most of their policies.

They could easily be a right-wing ethno-nationalist party but they are not.

[deesidejambo]

It's going to be interesting. SNP likely taking Labour seats here and the Greens and Ukip splitting Labour and Tory votes in England.

 

Cannot see an outright majority so the horse trading will be fascinating.

 

Democracy eh.

With the ultimate irony - a Lab/Con coalition!!!!!!!!!!!

[Pans Jambo]

Tuition fees - benefits the middle classes disproportionately.

 

His plan to cut corporation tax.

 

Your assertions about why I don't like them is nonsense. I don't like them because they are nationalist, separatists and hellbent on dismantling the UK. I'd have no issue with strong parties other than lab/Tory/lib Dems.

 

I just don't like the rise of the SNP and UKIP given what they principally stand for. And in the SNP's case their supporters do not challenge or criticise what their leadership do.

Tuition fees also benefited the poor though as did the council tax freeze. A corporation tax cut with a planned enforcement to pay is far better than letting the big boy corporations & old school tie chums off with not paying it at all (or very little of it).

 

They are undeniably hell bent on Scotland gaining independence to improve her lot but that's not the same being hell bent on breaking up the UK.

 

Anyway, a bit off topic there but I think this will bring it back in-line: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=up2q94Oj57Q#t=20

[Nookie Bear]

This thread has included the words "hagiographies" and "psephologist".

 

Wait til I drop those beauties into the Section N half-time chat next home game. Scenes!

[Guest Trapper John]

I'm anything but showing him adulation and tbh I don't see that many similarities with Farage either. Farage is a little englander who is playing to the crowd with regards immigration how is Salmond like him? Salmond goes around kicking lumps out of labour and anyone in scotland who can boot their arses about the place is a top man as far as im concerned, I absolutely loathe them.

 

Labour has held this country back for decades and it was also them who started the Tory bashing and the Tory hating that now seems irreversible. Salmond, Farage whoever you want to name are all here because of the Labour Party imo. The referendum was labours fault because they know not what they are, who they stand for or what it is exactly they're trying to achieve. They pussy around the Tories without offering anything like an alternative and deserve the routing that I sincerely hope they are going to get. Labour has taken scotland for granted for over 50 years and they don't know what to do anymore because they are controlled by another party that doesn't represent the scots they promised to represent and Salmond has walked right into the gaping chasm they left.

 

Opportunist extremist? How is that? I think the Nats have shown they can govern and govern fairly well being honest. Salmond doesn't have to answer to anyone down south like labour, conservatives or liberals so therefore uses that to his advantage. Wouldn't be like a politician to do that now would it....

 

 

You 'absolutely loathe' Labour? You sound like a lover spurned.

 

It seems to me the root of this 'hatred' of Labour lies in those very particular Scottish faults of intolerance, despising change, looking to the past and the glorification of failure.

 

Do you remember the era of the Benn/Healey feud of the early 80's? The party were unelectable. Then they produced Michael Foot as leader... The rest is history. That was the Labour party you should reserve your contempt for. Idiots like that and Hatton, Heffer etc were one of the main if not the main reason why there was 18 years of Thatcher/Major.

 

Are you really that stuck in the 1970's? The world and even the Scottish people have moved on since then. You obviously haven't. As for all that pining for true socialism...there never was any. The Labour Party had to plot a pragmatic course in the 90's or face oblivion. The grew up in a sense. They had to.

 

The Scots have a authoritarian streak running through them where the English have a libertarian one. I know which side I prefer. We saw how intolerant the Yes campaign was to anyone who opposed their ideas. And if you believe the  'BBC' was biased, you're deluded. If anything, they pussyfooted around Salmond and co far too much.

 

And as for the 'chasm' Salmond has leaped into, you're right. Except it isn't a chasm, it's a political vacuum that many extremists find a place in from time  to time. The SNP have no policies other than appealling to the Middle Classes and business. Free Prescriptions? Nonsense. Frozen Council Tax? The working class are the ones who have paid the price for that idiotic policy as the middle class are less reliant on services. The mess they have made of the NHS in Scotland and college placement belies the myth of good 'SNP' governance. Oh, we won't mention the oil price shall we?

 

in 80 years what has the SNP given the Scottish people? Absolutely nothing. Zip. Zero. What has Labour given Scotland over 80 years? You know the answer to that.

 

There is nothing between Farage and Salmond. One is a Little Englander and the other a Little Scotlander. Both appeal to sentiments that are highly unattractive in people but win support because they appeal to the lowest common denominator: division, xenophobia, arrogance and intolerance.

 

They will both fail because the world has moved on. The referendum result was a great moment for Scotland. It proved we're a grown up people, in the main content with who we are and our place in the world. And a people who believe in sharing and at the same time retaining the emotional ties built up over centuries of living together.

 

You should be celebrating this fact.

[Gorgiewave]

Trapper John is a late-entering candidate for poster of the year.

[TheMaganator]

You 'absolutely loathe' Labour? You sound like a lover spurned.

 

It seems to me the root of this 'hatred' of Labour lies in those very particular Scottish faults of intolerance, despising change, looking to the past and the glorification of failure.

 

Do you remember the era of the Benn/Healey feud of the early 80's? The party were unelectable. Then they produced Michael Foot as leader... The rest is history. That was the Labour party you should reserve your contempt for. Idiots like that and Hatton, Heffer etc were one of the main if not the main reason why there was 18 years of Thatcher/Major.

 

Are you really that stuck in the 1970's? The world and even the Scottish people have moved on since then. You obviously haven't. As for all that pining for true socialism...there never was any. The Labour Party had to plot a pragmatic course in the 90's or face oblivion. The grew up in a sense. They had to.

 

The Scots have a authoritarian streak running through them where the English have a libertarian one. I know which side I prefer. We saw how intolerant the Yes campaign was to anyone who opposed their ideas. And if you believe the 'BBC' was biased, you're deluded. If anything, they pussyfooted around Salmond and co far too much.

 

And as for the 'chasm' Salmond has leaped into, you're right. Except it isn't a chasm, it's a political vacuum that many extremists find a place in from time to time. The SNP have no policies other than appealling to the Middle Classes and business. Free Prescriptions? Nonsense. Frozen Council Tax? The working class are the ones who have paid the price for that idiotic policy as the middle class are less reliant on services. The mess they have made of the NHS in Scotland and college placement belies the myth of good 'SNP' governance. Oh, we won't mention the oil price shall we?

 

in 80 years what has the SNP given the Scottish people? Absolutely nothing. Zip. Zero. What has Labour given Scotland over 80 years? You know the answer to that.

 

There is nothing between Farage and Salmond. One is a Little Englander and the other a Little Scotlander. Both appeal to sentiments that are highly unattractive in people but win support because they appeal to the lowest common denominator: division, xenophobia, arrogance and intolerance.

 

They will both fail because the world has moved on. The referendum result was a great moment for Scotland. It proved we're a grown up people, in the main content with who we are and our place in the world. And a people who believe in sharing and at the same time retaining the emotional ties built up over centuries of living together.

 

You should be celebrating this fact.

Superb from start to finish.

 

Absolutely

[Dirty Deeds]

Re Trapper John above and the Yes Camp's aggression. I was there the old bloke manning the Yes Stall got smacked for handing out leaflets.

 

That's the only aggression I witnessed first hand though George Square didn't look to clever either.

[Gorgiewave]

As was said above, I think some people will one day be very red-faced about having been so keen Yes fans. When the euphoria is over.

[dobmisterdobster]

As was said above, I think some people will one day be very red-faced about having been so keen Yes fans. When the euphoria is over.

The euphoria ended on the 19th. It's the unionists the won't move on.

[jack D and coke]

You 'absolutely loathe' Labour? You sound like a lover spurned.

 

It seems to me the root of this 'hatred' of Labour lies in those very particular Scottish faults of intolerance, despising change, looking to the past and the glorification of failure.

 

Do you remember the era of the Benn/Healey feud of the early 80's? The party were unelectable. Then they produced Michael Foot as leader... The rest is history. That was the Labour party you should reserve your contempt for. Idiots like that and Hatton, Heffer etc were one of the main if not the main reason why there was 18 years of Thatcher/Major.

 

Are you really that stuck in the 1970's? The world and even the Scottish people have moved on since then. You obviously haven't. As for all that pining for true socialism...there never was any. The Labour Party had to plot a pragmatic course in the 90's or face oblivion. The grew up in a sense. They had to.

 

The Scots have a authoritarian streak running through them where the English have a libertarian one. I know which side I prefer. We saw how intolerant the Yes campaign was to anyone who opposed their ideas. And if you believe the  'BBC' was biased, you're deluded. If anything, they pussyfooted around Salmond and co far too much.

 

And as for the 'chasm' Salmond has leaped into, you're right. Except it isn't a chasm, it's a political vacuum that many extremists find a place in from time  to time. The SNP have no policies other than appealling to the Middle Classes and business. Free Prescriptions? Nonsense. Frozen Council Tax? The working class are the ones who have paid the price for that idiotic policy as the middle class are less reliant on services. The mess they have made of the NHS in Scotland and college placement belies the myth of good 'SNP' governance. Oh, we won't mention the oil price shall we?

 

in 80 years what has the SNP given the Scottish people? Absolutely nothing. Zip. Zero. What has Labour given Scotland over 80 years? You know the answer to that.

 

There is nothing between Farage and Salmond. One is a Little Englander and the other a Little Scotlander. Both appeal to sentiments that are highly unattractive in people but win support because they appeal to the lowest common denominator: division, xenophobia, arrogance and intolerance.

 

They will both fail because the world has moved on. The referendum result was a great moment for Scotland. It proved we're a grown up people, in the main content with who we are and our place in the world. And a people who believe in sharing and at the same time retaining the emotional ties built up over centuries of living together.

 

You should be celebrating this fact.

Do you know me personally or something? sorry but what a pile of pish!

 

Where to start......

 

I'm not a socialist for one. I don't remember the labour feud of the 70's as I was a nipper at the time. I don't care about what Labour used to be I care what they are now.

 

Scots have an authoritarian streak and English libertarian? Really? What is this based on exactly? Who says?

 

There was some intolerance from the Yes side but no more than I saw from the No side and all the violence came from the unionist side so not sure what you think you saw tbh. If your talking about cybernats then I despair mate you really need to get a grip and stop being offended at things you read on the Internet. I don't believe I've mentioned any media bias and certainly none from the BBC so again what are you on about?

 

What has the SNP given scotland in 80 years? Well considering it's only been in recent years they've came to the fore I'd say it's a bit too early to say myself. I never said I was an SNP voter either btw I don't believe ive ever voted for them whereas I have voted Labour in the past although I did vote Yes.

 

Labour have been in charge in the poorest areas in Scotland for decades and have overseen their deterioration, they deserve a doing Imo for their arrogance in assuming these areas will always be their's. Frankly I'm enjoying seeing them losing face it but seems your quite offended by that, I can only apologise.

 

My loathing of Labour comes from what I know in my area about the way they operate and from what I've read about their cliquey councils especially in smaller towns and their zombie voters who knew nothing else, they infuriate me. The Tory bashing, which they started, when that now the shoe is on the other foot and they're getting the bashing and a confident or arrogant Salmond mocks them and makes them look stupid they can't stand it.

 

I wasn't devastated by the No vote at all, I never actually truly believed it would happen anyway and I'm getting on with my life just fine thanks very much so what's the price of oil got to with things either? Incidentally I believe it's being driven down by the Saudis to counter the price of shale. It will go up again I'm sure your aware of that but it's all bye the bye now anyway.

 

Your "post of the year" is riddled with holes mate as far as I'm concerned. It's certainly can't be aimed at me. Sorry to disappoint.

[The White Cockade]

As was said above, I think some people will one day be very red-faced about having been so keen Yes fans. When the euphoria is over.

I think it's more the case that some No voters will have a red face when they realise they shouldn't have been frightened of changing the status quo

very few people are happy with the Cameron/Clegg coalition governing Scotland and not many more would be happier with Milliband

It was a great chance missed

[Gorgiewave]

Do you know me personally or something? sorry but what a pile of pish!

 

Where to start......

 

I'm not a socialist for one. I don't remember the labour feud of the 70's as I was a nipper at the time. I don't care about what Labour used to be I care what they are now.

 

Scots have an authoritarian streak and English libertarian? Really? What is this based on exactly? Who says?

 

There was some intolerance from the Yes side but no more than I saw from the No side and all the violence came from the unionist side so not sure what you think you saw tbh. If your talking about cybernats then I despair mate you really need to get a grip and stop being offended at things you read on the Internet. I don't believe I've mentioned any media bias and certainly none from the BBC so again what are you on about?

 

What has the SNP given scotland in 80 years? Well considering it's only been in recent years they've came to the fore I'd say it's a bit too early to say myself. I never said I was an SNP voter either btw I don't believe ive ever voted for them whereas I have voted Labour in the past although I did vote Yes.

 

Labour have been in charge in the poorest areas in Scotland for decades and have overseen their deterioration, they deserve a doing Imo for their arrogance in assuming these areas will always be their's. Frankly I'm enjoying seeing them losing face it but seems your quite offended by that, I can only apologise.

 

My loathing of Labour comes from what I know in my area about the way they operate and from what I've read about their cliquey councils especially in smaller towns and their zombie voters who knew nothing else, they infuriate me. The Tory bashing, which they started, when that now the shoe is on the other foot and they're getting the bashing and a confident or arrogant Salmond mocks them and makes them look stupid they can't stand it.

 

I wasn't devastated by the No vote at all, I never actually truly believed it would happen anyway and I'm getting on with my life just fine thanks very much so what's the price of oil got to with things either? Incidentally I believe it's being driven down by the Saudis to counter the price of shale. It will go up again I'm sure your aware of that but it's all bye the bye now anyway.

 

Your "post of the year" is riddled with holes mate as far as I'm concerned. It's certainly can't be aimed at me. Sorry to disappoint.

 

This sounds like over--strenuous protestation.

[Gorgiewave]

I think it's more the case that some No voters will have a red face when they realise they shouldn't have been frightened of changing the status quo

very few people are happy with the Cameron/Clegg coalition governing Scotland and not many more would be happier with Milliband

It was a great chance missed

 

The SNP government governs Scotland in most areas.

[jack D and coke]

This sounds like over--strenuous protestation.

Or maybe I've just made your previous post look a bit silly?

 

[The White Cockade]

The SNP government governs Scotland in most areas.

Not the most important ones

or why would you be bothered by Independence?

[Gorgiewave]

Not the most important ones

or why would you be bothered by Independence?

 

I'd abolish Holyrood. It's mostly been rubbish.