Scottish independence and devolution superthread

[JamboX2]

that's not what I was talking about though

it is the Unionist parties that want a Westminster Government governing Scotland

therefore if the Tories win the election ad run Scotland it is their doing

Not the SNP who don't want English Results to determine Scotland's fate

Ah in that case fair enough. Never got your point on the off.

 

The thing is though, by virtue of voting to retain Union, we voted to retain the concept and process of a UK wide electorate. In that we have to accept the democratic will of the people as a whole for Westminster. It's not so much an English choice, but a UK wide one. Much like Shetland has to accept SNP government.

 

The SNP may win more seats, I don't think it'll be more than around 20. Some margins are too big to overtake through West to see the SNP take as many as predicted. But they could undercut the centre left government they bang on about wanting to prop up and hand the election to Cameron. That helps no one.

[TheMaganator]

that's not what I was talking about though

it is the Unionist parties that want a Westminster Government governing Scotland

therefore if the Tories win the election ad run Scotland it is their doing

Not the SNP who don't want English Results to determine Scotland's fate

That's a cop out. They lost the referendum. They now should do what they think is best for Scotland.

 

By trying to get rid of labour up here they're opening the door for the Tories. That's on them.

[The White Cockade]

Ah in that case fair enough. Never got your point on the off.

 

The thing is though, by virtue of voting to retain Union, we voted to retain the concept and process of a UK wide electorate. In that we have to accept the democratic will of the people as a whole for Westminster. It's not so much an English choice, but a UK wide one. Much like Shetland has to accept SNP government.

 

The SNP may win more seats, I don't think it'll be more than around 20. Some margins are too big to overtake through West to see the SNP take as many as predicted. But they could undercut the centre left government they bang on about wanting to prop up and hand the election to Cameron. That helps no one.

Yep I agree it is a UK election therefore you have to accept it is the Democratic right of the country to have Tory Government

or any other party for that matter

It wasn't me who was disagreeing it was another poster who said that a vote for the SNP is a vote for a UK Tory Government as it

is cutting the number of Scottish Labour MP's  which is clearly a nonsense argument especially as he is a huge supporter of the Union

That's why I said he can't have it both ways

[2NaFish]

That's a cop out. They lost the referendum. They now should do what they think is best for Scotland.

 

By trying to get rid of labour up here they're opening the door for the Tories. That's on them.

 

Are you saying the SNP shouldn't run for seats to aid Labour?

[TheMaganator]

Are you saying the SNP shouldn't run for seats to aid Labour?

They can do what they want. But by going after labour it's more likely the Tories will get in.

[2NaFish]

They can do what they want. But by going after labour it's more likely the Tories will get in.

 

Sure, but you're presenting them as hypocrites for trying to get elected in to seats, when that's their rasion d'etre.. It's not 'on them' if the tories get returned. It's on tory voters. It's certainly not for the SNP to ensure that the Labour party win the general election.

[Psychedelicropcircle]

Thee ole 'a vote for SNP is a vote for the Tories, if the unionist Labour Party (Scottish London branch) want people to vote for unionist parties they have to make the Union look attractive. They failed in the two year referendum as they are failing now.

[poultry]

the 45 must be so proud

LOL

[Sarah O]

Top trolling by Big Eck, the sour faced no voters that are properly up in arms is magnificent.

 

[TheMaganator]

Thee ole 'a vote for SNP is a vote for the Tories, if the unionist Labour Party (Scottish London branch) want people to vote for unionist parties they have to make the Union look attractive. They failed in the two year referendum as they are failing now.

 

Remind me who won the referendum?

[Maroon Sailor]

Top trolling by Big Eck, the sour faced no voters that are properly up in arms is magnificent.

More a case if you can't beat em, join em

 

Salmond wanting to become part of the Westminster Establishment.

 

More faces than Big Ben that man

[Psychedelicropcircle]

 

 

Remind me who won the referendum?[/quote

 

The unionists are mired in negativity that was the point.

[Guest Trapper John]

More a case if you can't beat em, join em

 

Salmond wanting to become part of the Westminster Establishment.

 

More faces than Big Ben that man

A greater hypocrite never walked this earth...

 

He'll get his comeuppance when the good folk of Gordon tactically vote to wreck his latest dream.

 

As will happen all round Scotland come May.

[Guest Trapper John]

 

 

Remind me who won the referendum?[/quote

 

The unionists are mired in negativity that was the point.

 

 

How can winners be negative?

 

You lost but you act like you won. Get on with running Scotland like you claim to do and get over the fact that 2 million grown ups despise Salmond and his party and voted NO.

 

Keep holding on to your belief that the 'Vow' swung things if it gives you solace. It didn't.

 

See Gerry Hassan's excellent article in the Scotsman over the weekend.

[JamboX2]

Thee ole 'a vote for SNP is a vote for the Tories, if the unionist Labour Party (Scottish London branch) want people to vote for unionist parties they have to make the Union look attractive. They failed in the two year referendum as they are failing now.

  

 

But they did make it attractive. They won the referendum. As a party they've not sold themselves well. But they have sold the Union well and made it attractive as they won.

 

Sure, but you're presenting them as hypocrites for trying to get elected in to seats, when that's their rasion d'etre.. It's not 'on them' if the tories get returned. It's on tory voters. It's certainly not for the SNP to ensure that the Labour party win the general election.

But that's their aim. Their stated ambition is to hold Labour in power on their votes. Salmond today said he wants Labour to be short 20-30 seats of which he can use the SNP to prop them up on a supply and confidence basis. He is in effect arguing to vote SNP to get Labour. Why not just vote Labour?

[JamboX2]

 

 

 

Remind me who won the referendum?[/quote

 

The unionists are mired in negativity that was the point.

 

http://www.scotsman.com/news/gerry-hassan-indyref-12-hard-truths-1-3627532

 

Take it you don't agree with any of the critique about how shambolic Yes was at times during the campaign? A lack of any real attempt to woo Labour voters. A lack of attempt to reach out to Unionist leaning voters or a want to reassure them. A lack of any real understanding of the debate beyond how they viewed it themselves.

[Psychedelicropcircle]

 

 

Keep holding on to your belief that the 'Vow' swung things if it gives you solace. It didn't.

 

Trapper the man who knows the 2m no'ers personally and wot motivated them. Good son.

 

Come May I'll dig this wee gem out.

[Psychedelicropcircle]

X2 30-40% of labour voters voted YES including YOU. No woowing needed. I accept the Indy result as a step too far this time hopefully you'll accept the smith commission is more strands of the Union frayed ...tick tock..

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

X2 30-40% of labour voters voted YES including YOU. No woowing needed. I accept the Indy result as a step too far this time hopefully you'll accept the smith commission is more strands of the Union frayed ...tick tock..

Tick tock to what?

[Psychedelicropcircle]

 

Tick tock to what?[/quote

 

The end of the Union.

[TheMaganator]

Tick tock is very Hibs.net

[Psychedelicropcircle]

Much like tactical voting labour when your a Tory...well a chocolate tory!!!

[TheMaganator]

Much like tactical voting labour when your a Tory...well a chocolate tory!!!

what is a chocolate Tory? You've called me that a few times...

[Psychedelicropcircle]

Real Tories only vote Tory and aren't blinded by hatred of another political party into voting elsewhere. I'd prefer if you voted labour It's a good start to your rehabilitation!

[GBJambo]

X2 30-40% of labour voters voted YES including YOU. No woowing needed. I accept the Indy result as a step too far this time hopefully you'll accept the smith commission is more strands of the Union frayed ...tick tock..

25-30% of snp voters voted no. Perhaps they needed more wooing.

[Guest Trapper John]

Keep holding on to your belief that the 'Vow' swung things if it gives you solace. It didn't.

 

Trapper the man who knows the 2m no'ers personally and wot motivated them. Good son.

 

Come May I'll dig this wee gem out.

Look forward to it when the great swing to the SNP fails spectacularly to materialise.

[Rousset1]

''In our age there is no such thing as ?keeping out of politics.? All issues are political issues, and politics itself is a mass of lies, evasions, folly, hatred and schizophrenia.?

 

Fatty Salmond is well suited to a continued career in politics, imo.

[Ray Gin]

The rest I have no real problem with loosing, but l think we would be poorer without Charles Kennedy; although I think he will be one of the few liberals who retains his seat.

This. Kennedy seems like a decent bloke.

[Rand Paul's Ray Bans]

I see the Labour supporters have their excuses rehearsed and polished if they lose next year.

 

"The media didn't cover #CameronMustGo!"

 

 

"Vested interests don't like Miliband's policies and are mobilising their dark forces against us."

 

 

"It was fatty Salmond and the vile nationalists."

 

 

Labour supporters get more and more like SNP supporters every day.

[redm]

Don't understand this strange mantra I keep hearing, "you lost the referendum, get over it" like it was the one single defining and final moment of an independence movement that has been going since goodness knows when. That's not how it works. It wasn't a cup final, it's not a bragging rights situation.

 

Will Salmond be a good MP? Of course. Will he represent his constituents? Absolutely. Will he fight for Scottish interests in London? Damn straight. I'm looking forward to seeing how this works out, very much so.

Edited December 7, 2014 by redm

[JamboX2]

X2 30-40% of labour voters voted YES including YOU. No woowing needed. I accept the Indy result as a step too far this time hopefully you'll accept the smith commission is more strands of the Union frayed ...tick tock..

 

 

I voted yes because I am sick of hearing and seeing scottish governments undermined by a culture of blame, grief and grudge and a lack of maturity. I also believe the SNP would be found out for what they were with full powers and their hyperbole sunk by reality.

 

Labour voters who voted yes will by in large still vote Labour. That's what they are. And 20-30% is a small fraction of a party. A minority. The party was the vanguard of No's foot soldiers on the ground. And guess what they helped secure that no win.

 

Smith is a strengthening of devolution. Not a step to an independent Scotland. The issue that we now face is that when we should work with Westminster to gain concessions and use s.30 orders to get extra powers outwith commissions we won't becuase the SNP are playing the game as though they won or at the least the referendum isn't over.

 

No won. There won't be another vote for some time. There's already talk in the SNP that Sturgeon won't commit to it in 2016.

 

 

Keep holding on to your belief that the 'Vow' swung things if it gives you solace. It didn't.

Trapper the man who knows the 2m no'ers personally and wot motivated them. Good son.

Come May I'll dig this wee gem out.

The vow did nothing. No was destined to win. It was a question of margins. Hold onto the one poll which gave the 50% + lead all you want. The 'vow' was not a turning point. If it was the Yes camp was undermined by something they clearly shouldn't have been by. In fact the SNP claims of it being undelivered are deceitful and dishonest. The vow was a trap that the SNP had to take on after the vote. It was not structured nor had scope. If anything SNP intransigence in some issues in the commission process apparently undermined the process. As did some unionist politicking which I won't deny happened. Liberals, Greens and Labour were blocked on major welfare and workers rights matters by the SNP siding with the Tories on tax.

[JamboX2]

Don't understand this strange mantra I keep hearing, "you lost the referendum, get over it" like it was the one single defining and final moment of an independence movement that has been going since goodness knows when. That's not how it works. It wasn't a cup final, it's not a bragging rights situation.

Will he be a good MP? Of course. Will he represent his constituents? Absolutely. Will he fight for Scottish interests in London? Damn straight. I'm looking forward to seeing how this works out, very much so.

Do all Scottish MPs not fight for Scottish interests? All have defended Barnett. All have stood in defence of Scottish defence establishments. All have stood in support of the Scottish people.

 

Salmond will do what he's good at. But let's not confuse the interests of the SNP and their aims with the Scottish national interest.

[redm]

Do all Scottish MPs not fight for Scottish interests? All have defended Barnett. All have stood in defence of Scottish defence establishments. All have stood in support of the Scottish people.

 

Salmond will do what he's good at. But let's not confuse the interests of the SNP and their aims with the Scottish national interest.

Some do a better job than others, let's put it that way.

 

And I'm not confusing interests of SNP and Scottish interests. That's kind of my point. He might be devoted to independence cause but as a separate issue, in terms of representing Scottish interests in a general sense, he'll fight our corner brilliantly.

[Socrates]

They can do what they want. But by going after labour it's more likely the Tories will get in.

There are pretty much zero seats that Labour would lose to the Tories as a result of the SNP doing well. Given that the SNP have already said that they won't support a Tory Government under any circumstances, it's kind of hard to see how the SNP doing well lets the Tories in.

[269miles]

Personally, I'd prefer that lard arse to stay in Scotland and fix the ****ing NHS he claimed was safe in SNP hands.

 

Which it clearly is not.

[Ulysses]

 

Labour voters who voted yes will by in large still vote Labour.

 

But the opinion polls are saying they won't.

[Gorgiewave]

There are pretty much zero seats that Labour would lose to the Tories as a result of the SNP doing well. Given that the SNP have already said that they won't support a Tory Government under any circumstances, it's kind of hard to see how the SNP doing well lets the Tories in.

 

What's hard about it? There are only two candidates to be the biggest party in Westminster after May. Most SNP gains, if any, are likely to come from current Labour seats. Thus, fewer seats for Labour and a lower target for the Conservatives.

[Gorgiewave]

Don't understand this strange mantra I keep hearing, "you lost the referendum, get over it" like it was the one single defining and final moment of an independence movement that has been going since goodness knows when. That's not how it works. It wasn't a cup final, it's not a bragging rights situation.

 

Will Salmond be a good MP? Of course. Will he represent his constituents? Absolutely. Will he fight for Scottish interests in London? Damn straight. I'm looking forward to seeing how this works out, very much so.

 

The question was asked, those proposing the referendum having said they would accept the result and the matter would be settled for a generation. A generation lasts under 24 hours to the 45ers..

Edited December 8, 2014 by Gorgiewave

[Gorgiewave]

Some do a better job than others, let's put it that way.

 

And I'm not confusing interests of SNP and Scottish interests. That's kind of my point. He might be devoted to independence cause but as a separate issue, in terms of representing Scottish interests in a general sense, he'll fight our corner brilliantly.

 

How will he? By (i) making it more likely the infinitely evil Conservatives get elected; (ii) continuing to promote resentment and bitterness as national traits; or (iii) by continuing to represent the national sanctimony?

[JamboX2]

But the opinion polls are saying they won't.

At present. With a new leader and with it direction that will change. Scottish Labour will fight the 2015 election in a stronger position than they are now. The Sturgeon Bounce won't run for as long as thought. Eventually she either alienates "middle Scotland" or the new SNP membership. Imo middle Scotland will be easier won by Murphy than Sturgeon in the long haul.

[JamboX2]

There are pretty much zero seats that Labour would lose to the Tories as a result of the SNP doing well. Given that the SNP have already said that they won't support a Tory Government under any circumstances, it's kind of hard to see how the SNP doing well lets the Tories in.

Labour with less seats opens the door to a Tory government. The SNP don't even need to be kingmakers. The NI unionists or Lib Dems could be. Then again Salmond was quoted at the weekend by the Scotland on Sunday as saying he'd get concessions from a Tory government. So he'd work with Tories.

[Ulysses]

At present. With a new leader and with it direction that will change. Scottish Labour will fight the 2015 election in a stronger position than they are now. The Sturgeon Bounce won't run for as long as thought. Eventually she either alienates "middle Scotland" or the new SNP membership. Imo middle Scotland will be easier won by Murphy than Sturgeon in the long haul.

I think it's probably more fundamental than that. A significant group of voters supported the SNP in the Holyrood election and Labour in the General Election because they thought that tactical split was in their best interest. Following the referendum they seem to have changed their minds, and I doubt that they'll change them back.

[djf]

What a sad state our politics are in when "vote x to keep out y" is treated with interest rather than derision and scorn. In the unlikely event that the Conservatives win the next GE the only people to "blame" will be people who voted Tory and to a lesser extent the Labour party who couldn't combat right wing populism.

[Nookie Bear]

Hypocrite.

 

Sinn Fein have more political morals than this chancer.

[jambo1185]

What a sad state our politics are in when "vote x to keep out y" is treated with interest rather than derision and scorn. In the unlikely event that the Conservatives win the next GE the only people to "blame" will be people who voted Tory and to a lesser extent the Labour party who couldn't combat right wing populism.

 

I agree but tactical voting has been around for a while now (and I guess it's at the heart of this Yes Alliance nonsense some people are still going on about, although I think most now agree it doesn't work and none of the pro-independence parties wanted it anyway). Although I would be staggered if it ends up holding true, plenty of Labour voters could never bring themselves to vote Tory even in areas where Tory are most likely to challenge the SNP (either as current second party or most likely to capitalize on the Lib Dem destruction that is going to happen all over the place). For me, SNP will mop up in some traditional Labour areas, but could lose one or two rural seats if the Tory's get some momentum going (it's very much a long shot in Westminster elections, and the Tories will probably still end up with 1 MP, but stranger things have happened in Scottish politics!). I think overall they will make big gains, but whether it's of the level talked about (and more importantly, whether it is sustained or just a flash in the pan one-off) we'll need to wait and see.

 

I'd always rather just vote for the party I believe in, and if they are doomed to failure in my area then maybe that's a sign I should be doing a bit more to help them out (or that I just live in the wrong area?).

Edited December 8, 2014 by jambo1185

[jambo1185]

Back on topic, I have no issue Salmond standing. It's hardly a surprise and exactly what I expected from him. I'm sure he'll win the seat, but if he (continues?) to take attention away from Sturgeon and dominate the headlines, will her patience start to wear thin? He could easily undermine her, whether he means to or not, as lots of his core political beliefs (outside of independence) are quite different to hers.

 

Oil price still ain't looking to hot is it? I'm sure it will pick up as it tends to work in cycles but we really could have been in a bit of a mess based on the budget forecasts in the White Paper. But then I suppose the argument would have been that at least it would have been our mess and up to us to fix it and/or it would still all have been Westminster's fault. 

Edited December 8, 2014 by jambo1185

[Boris]

If it's all about tactical voting, I can't really see that many Labour folk voting Tory just to keep the SNP out.  So you then have the opposite i.e. Tories voting Labour to keep out the SNP.  I wonder how this would play at subsequent elections as it would be proof of Tory/Labour connivance.  Dangerous bed for Labour to get in to.

 

Eck has represented this constituency before hasn't he?  He's well respected and liked up in that part of the country so I can see him winning.

[TheMaganator]

It'll be interesting to see the caliber of candidate the SNP put forward. I know of one chap whose only experience of politics is helping out a current SNP MSP.

 

Could be quite funny if a lot of them are merely the UK hating dafties that I suspect they will be - they will quickly be found out and shown up in WM

[Boris]

It'll be interesting to see the caliber of candidate the SNP put forward. I know of one chap whose only experience of politics is helping out a current SNP MSP.

 

Could be quite funny if a lot of them are merely the UK hating dafties that I suspect they will be - they will quickly be found out and shown up in WM

 

Wouldn't take much to be shown up at Westminster given the current crop!  A PM that has invented his own form of kinky fetish for starters and a Chancellor who looked off his chops!

[jambo1185]

Haha. Another plus to the increased devolution package is that hopefully more and more of the best political talent in Scotland will see Holyrood as the place to be. That's a good thing for all of us.