Scottish independence and devolution superthread

[JamboX2]

Even if 99.99% never wanted another referendum, it would be undemocratic to make it illegal to have another one at any other point in time in the future, wouldn't you agree?

Yes. But to me that's not the headline for this. It should be, Scots haven't a clue what to do.

 

60+% want another vote. 53% would still vote No. It's almost as though even no voters want it re run for some reason.

 

Increasingly I fear we have entered a spiteful era of politics in the country on a self repeating position re-independence which will stunt our political leaders and result in a parliament unable to govern effectively in minority government situations (which I think we will see in 2016 for the SNP if not Labour).

[jambo1185]

So Salmond would have saved RBS? Jeezo. Also it's very interesting that some impossible without independence policies are now going to be forming part of the SNP manifesto for upcoming elections to be implemented at Holyrood.

[RosscoC]

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/independence-referendum-quarter-scots-never-4640537

 

Survation poll has 25% never wanting another referendum.

So does that mean 75% want another referendum?

[Socrates]

Yes. But to me that's not the headline for this. It should be, Scots haven't a clue what to do.

 

60+% want another vote. 53% would still vote No. It's almost as though even no voters want it re run for some reason.

 

Increasingly I fear we have entered a spiteful era of politics in the country on a self repeating position re-independence which will stunt our political leaders and result in a parliament unable to govern effectively in minority government situations (which I think we will see in 2016 for the SNP if not Labour).

 

 

I think the real thing to take away from a poll like this is that a lot of people are still quite confused on the long-term implications of the referendum and what they think should happen in the future. It's still only been two months, and you can see that the politicians still haven't got a clue where we go from here. There are inklings from some of them that they are starting to have some ideas, but it's unrealistic to expect the public to know exactly what they want. The other thing is that we assume we know how politics is going to be for years to come, but, in reality, we probably don't. For example, five years ago, nobody would have thought that the SNP would win an overall majority, or that we would have a referendum on independence, or that UKIP would be so strong. Ten years ago, Tony Blair was still PM, about to lead Labour to a third election victory and so on. Things change more than we think they will.

[JamboX2]

I think the real thing to take away from a poll like this is that a lot of people are still quite confused on the long-term implications of the referendum and what they think should happen in the future. It's still only been two months, and you can see that the politicians still haven't got a clue where we go from here. There are inklings from some of them that they are starting to have some ideas, but it's unrealistic to expect the public to know exactly what they want. The other thing is that we assume we know how politics is going to be for years to come, but, in reality, we probably don't. For example, five years ago, nobody would have thought that the SNP would win an overall majority, or that we would have a referendum on independence, or that UKIP would be so strong. Ten years ago, Tony Blair was still PM, about to lead Labour to a third election victory and so on. Things change more than we think they will.

The rise in the SNP, UKIP, the Greens etc all seem to have come about with the death in the traditional party loyalties. Votes are now increasingly up for grabs. However, I don't think UKIP are that strong and I don't think the SNP will do as well in 2015 as predicted. The electoral system in both cases is very much against them at Westminster. Labour will loose seats to the SNP in Scotland, but not enough to overtake them in numbers. Nor do I think you'll see more than 5 seats for UKIP.

 

I think all the parties are struggling with where to go next. The Greens and Tories up here aside, both of them have been on a set course for a while now, are ably lead and will do well in 2016. Scottish Labour needed new leadership. The SNP needed it too. However, both are clueless where to go. Scottish Labour under Lamont sought to build he party up, and failed because of the referendum and it's inability to get out and make a point with the people or get it's head around more devolved powers. The SNP have put little thought into a no outcome. The fact Salmond was in papers the past few weeks still running his referendum lines in the press. Blaming papers, blaming the BBC and lashing out at other parties not pulling their weight. Sturgeon needs to break that mentality in the SNP and the wider yes following. Patrick Harvie done it with his party and conference. He's even poured scorn on the idea of a Yes Alliance in the coming elections. Sturgeon has to with hers.

 

Whoever wins the Labour contest needs to reorganise the party's structures and develop policies for Holyrood and begin to use Scottish Labour as a block vote group, an internal caucus, of the UK Labour Party. Flex it's muscles and make a go of regaining ground on the SNP to hold them to account and their feet to the fire on doing right by the worse off in society.

 

It's a mess. 2015 will see a hung parliament. Which is good as it forces cooperation and may wring good concessions from Whitehall on devolution.

 

However, it's shocking how little post-referendum planning either side has made.

[Boris]

The rise in the SNP, UKIP, the Greens etc all seem to have come about with the death in the traditional party loyalties. Votes are now increasingly up for grabs. However, I don't think UKIP are that strong and I don't think the SNP will do as well in 2015 as predicted. The electoral system in both cases is very much against them at Westminster. Labour will loose seats to the SNP in Scotland, but not enough to overtake them in numbers. Nor do I think you'll see more than 5 seats for UKIP.

I think all the parties are struggling with where to go next. The Greens and Tories up here aside, both of them have been on a set course for a while now, are ably lead and will do well in 2016. Scottish Labour needed new leadership. The SNP needed it too. However, both are clueless where to go. Scottish Labour under Lamont sought to build he party up, and failed because of the referendum and it's inability to get out and make a point with the people or get it's head around more devolved powers. The SNP have put little thought into a no outcome. The fact Salmond was in papers the past few weeks still running his referendum lines in the press. Blaming papers, blaming the BBC and lashing out at other parties not pulling their weight. Sturgeon needs to break that mentality in the SNP and the wider yes following. Patrick Harvie done it with his party and conference. He's even poured scorn on the idea of a Yes Alliance in the coming elections. Sturgeon has to with hers.

Whoever wins the Labour contest needs to reorganise the party's structures and develop policies for Holyrood and begin to use Scottish Labour as a block vote group, an internal caucus, of the UK Labour Party. Flex it's muscles and make a go of regaining ground on the SNP to hold them to account and their feet to the fire on doing right by the worse off in society.

It's a mess. 2015 will see a hung parliament. Which is good as it forces cooperation and may wring good concessions from Whitehall on devolution.

However, it's shocking how little post-referendum planning either side has made.

I think that there is a general malaise with the Westminster political system. As much as the referendum will bring about further devolution to Scotland, the elephant in the room (well my room anyway!) is what changes will be made to the Westminster system. 45% of the Scottish electorate may have voted Yes, but was 100% of that 45 nationalist? How many voted for Indy as a better of two evils compared with the Westminster system?

 

So, as much as the 97 referendum on devolution led us to where we are now, if Westminster fails to look at devolution in global terms, as opposed to strictly a Scottish issue, then the same thing will happen, except second time round No May not win.

[XB52]

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/independence-referendum-quarter-scots-never-4640537

 

Survation poll has 25% never wanting another referendum.

and 61% want another one so what is your point?

[JamboX2]

and 61% want another one so what is your point?

and 53% would vote no in the same poll so why bother?

[jambos are go!]

and 61% want another one so what is

 

OOps. Sorry

Edited November 17, 2014 by jambos are go!

[TheMaganator]

and 61% want another one so what is your point?

I made my point. It was quite clear. 

 

And as JX2 notes - if there was another one now - you'd still lose.

[shedjambo]

and 61% want another one so what is your point?

Except defeat, but sore losers.

[JamboX2]

The bit in bold is just not the case, the SNP governemnt has been far better than the previous Lab/Lib coalitions we had.

Dunno about that. Cuts which have come about due to certain political choices on the behalf of the SNP has social mobility slide, old age care become a tokenist policy of 15 minute visits and child poverty increase.

 

They've done well. But ending the graduate endowment, a council tax freeze and free prescriptions for the middle class isn't a great job to me.

[doctor jambo]

In Scotland we are in  a weird position. The SNP are doing a great job, and are currently the only party fit to run the country( though with a couple of caveats).

However as long as they hold the reigns of power independence is on their aganda, and they will feel this is justified in that "a vote for the SNP is a vote for independence"

That is how they see it, and I understand that, but they are largely wrong

Many of us vote SNP, but are anti-Indi.

THough the new guardians rules for kids - I'm totally against that

[Optimus Prime]

and 53% would vote no in the same poll so why bother?

 

 

I made my point. It was quite clear. 

 

And as JX2 notes - if there was another one now - you'd still lose.

 

So let me get this right.....a clear majority of people want another referendum and the NO vote has dropped 2% in less than 2 months? 

[TheMaganator]

So let me get this right.....a clear majority of people want another referendum and the NO vote has dropped 2% in less than 2 months? 

A poll two weeks ago had Yes ahead so they have lost ground...

 

However, polls on this after the event don't hold much weight though. It is not the same thing saying you'd vote one way or the other when there isn't a vote looming.

[Don Draper]

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-30085309

[JamboX2]

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-30085309

Fair play to him. Decent of him, think Brown and a few others have done similar in the past. Take my hat off to each of them. As with all big name politicians he'll make a bomb off any lecture tour or board position he ends up on.

[JamboX2]

Strong speech from the new First Minister today. Pitch to Labour voters in the symbolism and talked up policies. Women's rights, equal pay, fair pay and child care the focus of her new government. No mentioning of Smith Commission (yet) but a lot of talk of being a government for all.

 

Also a lot more of a conciliatory tone towards other leaders than Eck. Reckon she'll be a better, more principled first minister.

 

Big day though, first woman first minister, voted to office under the stewardship of the first female and congratulated by two women in Labour and he Tories. Impressive for such a young parliament.

[jambo1185]

Strong speech from the new First Minister today. Pitch to Labour voters in the symbolism and talked up policies. Women's rights, equal pay, fair pay and child care the focus of her new government. No mentioning of Smith Commission (yet) but a lot of talk of being a government for all.

 

Also a lot more of a conciliatory tone towards other leaders than Eck. Reckon she'll be a better, more principled first minister.

 

Big day though, first woman first minister, voted to office under the stewardship of the first female and congratulated by two women in Labour and he Tories. Impressive for such a young parliament.

 

I completely agree.

[TheMaganator]

Fair play to him. Decent of him, think Brown and a few others have done similar in the past. Take my hat off to each of them. As with all big name politicians he'll make a bomb off any lecture tour or board position he ends up on.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/9254965/Alex-Salmond-refuses-to-give-up-gold-plated-pension-like-Cameron-and-Brown.html

 

Old six-pension has refused to do it in the past though...

 

Still , money to charity is a good thing

[JamboX2]

I completely agree.

She was just far more impressive. Salmond apparently winced when Davidson spoke about how she is far more impressed with Sturgeon than himself.

 

Reckon she might well prove to be an excellent First Minister. And I reckon we will see a more proactive and reforming government under her than Salmond provided which was cautious and peacemil in it's actions and policies.

 

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/9254965/Alex-Salmond-refuses-to-give-up-gold-plated-pension-like-Cameron-and-Brown.html

Old six-pension has refused to do it in the past though...

Still , money to charity is a good thing

I think the announcement and manner of it was a bit self satisfying on his behalf, but any money to charity, as you say, is a positive.

[Coco]

Might be some interesting Kremlinology to come on Friday as Nicola Sturgeon is apparently going to reshuffle.  Will there be any reflection of the new apparently more fundamentalist SNP members of the Party?  Obviously the likes of McAskill, Neil and Russell will surely go but what scores will Sturgeon settle?

 

[jambo1185]

Thought Davidson spoke very well too yesterday, that was a clever bit of politics there from her to take that opportunity to set out her stall.

 

I don't agree with everything Nicola says but I do feel that we are all a bit clearer on what a SNP government will stand for and do, as they've spent the past 2 years doing very little real governing with the election looming (after a positive first time in office I thought as well), which was a shame and to the detriment of the country but very understandable too. I think she will be a good leader.

[Coco]

Might be some interesting Kremlinology to come on Friday as Nicola Sturgeon is apparently going to reshuffle.  Will there be any reflection of the new apparently more fundamentalist SNP members of the Party?  Obviously the likes of McAskill, Neil and Russell will surely go but what scores will Sturgeon settle?

 

 

 

All 3 mentioned sacked ...

 

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/michael-matheson-named-new-justice-secretary-1-3612166

[Boris]

All 3 mentioned sacked ...

 

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/michael-matheson-named-new-justice-secretary-1-3612166

 

Neil has been moved to Social Justice, so still a cabinet member.

 

McAskill is no loss nor is Russell.

 

Quite shrewd from The new FM, with the 50/50 gender split.

[jambo1185]

Neil has been moved to Social Justice, so still a cabinet member.

 

McAskill is no loss nor is Russell.

 

Quite shrewd from The new FM, with the 50/50 gender split.

 

50/50 was predicted by a few of the journos, perhaps they were already in the know.

Edited November 21, 2014 by jambo1185

[TheMaganator]

Neil has been moved to Social Justice, so still a cabinet member.

 

McAskill is no loss nor is Russell.

 

Quite shrewd from The new FM, with the 50/50 gender split.

 

50/50 was predicted by a few of the journos, perhaps they were already in the know.

50/50 was a NAP.

 

Thrilled to see the back of KM - but how the **** has AN kept a cabinet position

[Boris]

50/50 was a NAP.

 

Thrilled to see the back of KM - but how the **** has AN kept a cabinet position

Totally agree re Km!!!

 

As for Neil, it's the old maxim, LBJ?, about better being inside the tent pissing out, than outside pissing in.

 

I'm not an SNP supporter, but am looking forward to Sturgeon's premiership.

[JamboX2]

I'd expect the new Justice Secretary to be a bit more liberal than his predecessor. Maybe put the breaks on Police Scotland and a few slowed down reforms in terms of corroboration (which will go ahead imo).

 

Neil is the pissing out the tent sort. He's a loud mouth. He's a liability to me. But he has a following on the fundamentalist wing of the party so has to be kept in.

 

Sturgeon is showing herself to be an astute leader. Good speech. Proper changes made - MacAskill and Russell out/Neil demoted/50:50 split. Also a focus on day to day issues - childcare etc. As Neil Findlay said on the BBC this week no one in Labour should be in any doubt that her changes to be made to the SNP is to outflank them and weaken them beyond repair.

[TheMaganator]

Our new justice secretary, in 2008, thought performing the Hokey Cokey should result in arrest

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/3883838/Doing-the-Hokey-Cokey-could-be-hate-crime.html

[Socrates]

Our new justice secretary, in 2008, thought performing the Hokey Cokey should result in arrest

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/3883838/Doing-the-Hokey-Cokey-could-be-hate-crime.html

 

Have you got a Lawssier on all SNP politicians? 

[ritchies75]

Gordon Brown standing down as MP in next few weeks according to Sky News

[ritchies75]

Sorry should have said to announce he is standing down  He will actually stand down at the election - http://news.sky.com/story/1378498/sky-sources-gordon-brown-to-stand-down-as-mp

Edited November 22, 2014 by ritchies75

[Stewart MacD]

A well-balanced cabinet, from what I can see from afar.. I just hope she doesn't go schmoozing the Dirty Digger in the way Salmond did (to no avail).

[TheMaganator]

Have you got a Lawssier on all SNP politicians? 

What's a Lawssier? Anyway, he's a clown.

[TheMaganator]

http://www.buzzfeed.com/margaretcurran/ten-snp-fails-since-2007-pv0p

 

Ten SNP fails since 2007. It speaks volumes that, in spite of this, they'll likely return a another majority.

[djf]

I'm laughing because I know exactly why Margaret Curran chose to write a Buzzfeed article about the SNP's epic fails. Scottish Labour really are the dorkiest political party in the country.

[JamboX2]

http://www.heraldscotland.com/mobile/comment/columnists/tribal-struggles-return-on-view-of-the-promised-land.25916564

 

Excellent article by David Torrance on the SNP rally this week. Interesting on how he notes potentially fraught tensions brewing between Sturgeon and the RiC parties and movement. As Stewart Hosie failed to answer on Sunday Politics a few weeks back, which seats will the SNP give up to let the Greens fight in a Yes Alliance? In short it's back to the SNP closing up shop.

 

After an impressive start and a bit of hope on my part she was being genuine she's sounding like she's on the verge on shutting down working with the opposition in the parliament and in the yes movement.

[Don Draper]

http://www.buzzfeed.com/margaretcurran/ten-snp-fails-since-2007-pv0p

 

Ten SNP fails since 2007. It speaks volumes that, in spite of this, they'll likely return a another majority.

 

 

Margaret Curran 

 

Buzzfeed   

[ToadKiller Dog]

Running scared Labour to drop its opposition to Holyrood getting full control of income tax .

[TheMaganator]

Margaret Curran

 

Buzzfeed

Anything on the content or just the author?

[JamboX2]

Running scared Labour to drop its opposition to Holyrood getting full control of income tax .

Running scared? If they took the stance of 'we don't want to break the link fully and would keep the safeguards in redistribution it offers by sharing' then they'd be being belligerent and stubborn.

 

What I'll give you is it's Murphy trying to out devo the Holyrood MSPs who were pushing for wider powers beyond financial powers which he opposes.

[Cade]

Yesterday Darling says "You don't want income tax powers, it'll end in tears"

Today Murphy says "Aye, nae bother, have all the powers you want"

 

Labour are making it up as they go along and Murphy is being shoehorned into the job (which is a good thing as he'll kill them off)

[Boris]

I received a communique from my Union regards the election of the new Scottish Labour leader.  I don't get a vote as I chose to fund the general political fund rather than the affiliate (i.e. Labour) fund.

 

Anyway, Unison advise their members to vote for Neil Findlay.

[TheMaganator]

Yesterday Darling says "You don't want income tax powers, it'll end in tears"

Today Murphy says "Aye, nae bother, have all the powers you want"

 

Labour are making it up as they go along and Murphy is being shoehorned into the job (which is a good thing as he'll kill them off)

In every party apart from the SNP - politicians are allowed to disagree with each other. It is healthy. 

[Boris]

In every party apart from the SNP - politicians are allowed to disagree with each other. It is healthy. 

 

Hahaha.  Love it!

[jambo89]

I received a communique from my Union regards the election of the new Scottish Labour leader. I don't get a vote as I chose to fund the general political fund rather than the affiliate (i.e. Labour) fund.

 

Anyway, Unison advise their members to vote for Neil Findlay.

Got my vote through from unite saying the same thing.

 

Tempted to vote for Murphy though because that would spell the end for labour.

 

Just a question though....... Would I have got 2 votes if I hadn't left the Labour Party a month ago?

[Boris]

Got my vote through from unite saying the same thing.

 

Tempted to vote for Murphy though because that would spell the end for labour.

 

Just a question though....... Would I have got 2 votes if I hadn't left the Labour Party a month ago?

 

Is one vote not for the Union i.e. members vote for who they want the Union to back, and your Labour Party vote would have been in the election.

 

So, yes, you had two votes, but only your Labour vote would have counted in the election, your Union vote would be eaten up by all the other Union votes to decide the preferred candidate.  

 

i.e. you could vote for Murphy but the rest of the Union votes say choose Findlay, so Findlay gets the Union vote.

 

As a Labour member, you get a vote in the ballot and choose Murphy.

 

If that makes sense!

[Socrates]

http://www.heraldscotland.com/mobile/comment/columnists/tribal-struggles-return-on-view-of-the-promised-land.25916564

 

Excellent article by David Torrance on the SNP rally this week. Interesting on how he notes potentially fraught tensions brewing between Sturgeon and the RiC parties and movement. As Stewart Hosie failed to answer on Sunday Politics a few weeks back, which seats will the SNP give up to let the Greens fight in a Yes Alliance? In short it's back to the SNP closing up shop.

 

After an impressive start and a bit of hope on my part she was being genuine she's sounding like she's on the verge on shutting down working with the opposition in the parliament and in the yes movement.

 

Except it doesn't say anything much. He doesn't even manage to get the usual anonymous quotes that normally fill such articles.

 

On the so-called Yes Alliance, the reason it doesn't work is because there are no seats that it makes sense for the SNP to stand down for the Greens, and a Green Yes Alliance candidate would probably get substantially fewer votes than a standard SNP candidate would in the same seat. It's interesting to note that the Greens have not been all that keen on a Yes Alliance either.

 

On Sturgeon saying nasty things about other parties at an SNP rally, I await your condemnation of any Labour leadership candidate who said bad things about any of the other parties while campaigning. Or is it possibly different standards for different parties?

[Socrates]

I was in Glasgow at the weekend and there was a march/protest about labour.

 

They were carrying a coffin which was labour. Called themselves real labour or something.

 

What shocked me most was the ages. I wouldn't have thought the majority were eve over 21. Wasn't sure if some student thing or genuine party.

 

As an aside ive become more disillusioned with politics. IMO everything seems to boil down to a single question/issue now.

 

I don't see how if people energies are focussed on one thing, anything will improve. A huge number of people seem to think there is a silver bullit. Couldn't be further from truth imo.

 

I don't think that's true, but then, I also think it's pointless to pretend that the constitutional issue is not a big part of Scottish politics. It has been since the 70s at one level or another. I think one of the good things from the referendum is that there actually appears to be both a wider spectrum of political views than we've had for a while and some fresh thinking. People like Patrick Harvie, Neil Findlay, some of the Radical Independence and Women for Independence folk, and, to an extent, Sturgeon have been offering different policy ideas that aren't only focused on independence. That doesn't mean that they'll stop talking about independence as well.