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Why do think its shite? Do you not think some people are voting with no knowledge that there is no going back?

 

Really?

 

I believe there will be many people voting Yes without really thinking about it......equally,there will be No voters who may deeply regret their decision....for the country's sake, I hope not!

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Exactly this!   I was thinking about the naysayers and then thought about WHY a movement would want to lead a nation into independence which would ultimately lead to financial ruin, expulsion from c

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I believe there will be many people voting Yes without really thinking about it......equally,there will be No voters who may deeply regret their decision....for the country's sake, I hope not!

 

Come on Boab, they might vote without giving it much thought but thinking that we can give it a try first and see if it's any good?

 

If there really are folk like that then I am due an apology to GBJambo and I despair for them.

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Come on Boab, they might vote without giving it much thought but thinking that we can give it a try first and see if it's any good?

 

If there really are folk like that then I am due an apology to GBJambo and I despair for them.

 

No,i'm a Yes......em...whit?

All i'm saying is that a lot of people....in any vote.....don't really sit and weigh up the pros and cons of a particular party....or idea.

Some of the stupidity of the general public is hard to digest,,,but it exists....in spades.

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If people really get stressed about stuff like that then maybe just remember that there will be a more engaged person than you voting the opposite way and a less engaged person voting the same way.

 

All evens out over course of a season or something.

 

Patronisingly repeating that a 'Yes' vote is forever probably does No more harm than good in my humble opinion. The twenty or so space cadets who think that way aren't going to have the self-awareness to realise they are being called out.

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Just got back from amazing, spontaneous rally on the Meadows (see pic below)

 

Cooking tea and listening to the Average White Band. They inspire me cos they are a soul band from Dundee, white but never average, and when I lived in the US in the 1990s I saw them tour, wowing large, black audiences, headlining above War and the Ohio Players.

 

They showed to me that if you have belief in yourself, if you're a Scottish band playing soul music, for example, you can do ANYTHING.

 

Complete opposite of Better Together, in other words.

 

Let's show the world on Thursday that we have courage, we're not scared to stand up for ourselves.

 

Meadows today:

 

http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/thousands-flood-capital-for-referendum-campaign-1-3541389

 

Tenuous post of the thread.

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Yeh, let's destroy a country that has been successful for hundreds of years, been respected throughout the world, has a seat on Security council of UN and is a major player in the world, to simply, in your words, smash the Tories.

 

Let's destroy the armed forces that have fought and died together for centuries to simply, in your words, smash the Tories.

 

Let's put thousands of jobs at risk, let's risk thousands of children's futures to simply, in your words, smash the Tories.

 

If that is your sole consideration, then I really despair for Scotland's future.

 

It's painful isn't it.

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Calm down.

 

If you honestly think voters are not swayed either way going in to the last week with what Salmond is saying then you are very naive. Going in to the last week, this will be won or lost by people who at this moment in time they are not sure what way to vote.

 

Truth be told, if you cant see this you are not being the poster boy for the yes vote.

 

Boil it down to who cares more about Scotland and the people of Scotland Alex Salmond or David Cameron?

 

The BT has been all about playing down Scotland and treating us a morons! Even the folk on here claiming everyone in Scotland still carries a chip about the 80's so doesn't vote Tories! Which one of their great polices has the rest of Scotland over looking? Top up fees*, bedroom tax, privates the NHS, selling off the post office to their mates, threaten to pull us out of the EU?

 

 

*was a labour policy that was backed by Tories.

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Why do think its shite? Do you not think some people are voting with no knowledge that there is no going back?

 

Really?

 

IMO it's more stupidity refusing to believe Scotland wouldn't be allowed to re-join!

 

Lets face it, in the event of independence it would take Scotland to be completely bankrupt and on its knees for some form of deal to be done. Hypothetically speaking!

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Yeh, let's destroy a country that has been successful for hundreds of years,

Yet a large percentage of kids are born into poverty, food banks on the increase, the gap between rich and poor is one of the worst in the developed world. Forget history, look at now.

 

been respected throughout the world, has a seat on Security council of UN and is a major player in the world

Scotland is respected throughout the world, as for the rest, who really cares? the Empire is long gone.

 

Let's destroy the armed forces that have fought and died together for centuries

They are being destroyed now as it is, and this has nothing to do with previous sacrifices. Many a veteran is a supporter of Independence.

 

Let's put thousands of jobs at risk, let's risk thousands of children's futures

They are at greater risk if we vote no to remain in this bankrupt Union.

Edited by Chuck Berry
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Yet a large percentage of kids are born into poverty, food banks on the increase, the gap between rich and poor is one of the worst in the developed world. Forget history, look at now.

 

 

Scotland is respected throughout the world, as for the rest, who really cares? the Empire is long gone.

 

 

They are being destroyed now as it is, and this has nothing to do with previous sacrifices. Many a veteran is a supporter of Independence.

 

 

They are at greater risk if we vote no to remain in this bankrupt Union.

 

Outstanding sir.

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Yet a large percentage of kids are born into poverty, food banks on the increase, the gap between rich and poor is one of the worst in the developed world. Forget history, look at now.

 

 

Evidence for the bit in bold please

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MrWinningSmith

Even the BBC's coverage of the Queen making comment in passing to somebody today about the referendum is blown out of proportion.

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Quebec rejected their chance for Independence in favour of the status quo. They regret it now though, big time.

 

They got more powers each time.

 

Twice they rejected it, the third time sovereignty was raised by the Parti Quebecois they were punted from government and forced into the lowest number of seats the party have had. That was this year by the way. Really sounds as though Quebec regrets it's choice.

 

A Canadian paper also released this today... http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-debate/editorials/an-open-letter-to-scotland/article20579017/

 

Will admit it's a National paper in Canada based in Toronto. But it appears to be written by a Qubecer. Seems to suggest otherwise.

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I didn't say they were friends of mine FFS. Just what I heard.

What's your problem?

Doesn't like you were telling the truth, too many just want to give it a try, reading the other day about someone with a small business who for the sake of his grand kids said he would give it a try, thinks he is trying a shirt on that he can return.
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"Hesitant voters in Scotland only need to look to Australia to witness how at ease with itself a country becomes when it takes control of its own affairs. We don't need to swallow the lie any longer that we are a poor country. And we don't need an out of touch elite in London deciding how much of our own money we should have to spend. We just need a bit of Australian confidence."

Edited by Chuck Berry
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A simple 5 minutes Googling will turn up info, but here's a report from two years ago, and with the increasing cuts by Westminster in the interim it's probably worse;

 

http://www.scotsman....world-1-2178654

 

You're right, in 5 minutes I managed to debunk this from an independant source instead of an agenda driven opinion piece

 

u6u5e3ad.jpg

 

http://www.equalitytrust.org.uk/about-inequality/scale-and-trends/scale-economic-inequality-uk

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You're right, in 5 minutes I managed to debunk this from an independant source instead of an agenda driven opinion piece

 

u6u5e3ad.jpg

 

http://www.equalityt...c-inequality-uk

 

I could post links from the OECD illustrating increasing inequality, but I guess we'd be here all night and you wouldn;t accept it anyway. Here's one anyway;

 

http://www.theguardi...inequality-oecd

 

"The concern is inequality will rise much more once the full impact of public spending cuts is felt," said Michael F?rster, senior analyst at the OECD social policy division."

 

and to use your own link above;

 

"Compared to other developed countries the UK has a very unequal distribution of income. Out of the 30 OECD countries in the LIS data set, the UK is the fourth most unequal, and within this data set it is the most unequal in Europe"

 

So I'm not sure what you were debunking.

Edited by Chuck Berry
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David Beckham declares for No.

 

Got me thinking. Have any prominent non-Scots celebs came out and said they think Scotland should go it alone?

Pete Townsend did
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What other country in the world wouldn't vote for independance? We'll be known as a nation of cowards if we don't take this chance.

 

Thought yes was all about not caring what the world thought about us and charting our own course?

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Geoff Kilpatrick

"Hesitant voters in Scotland only need to look to Australia to witness how at ease with itself a country becomes when it takes control of its own affairs. We don't need to swallow the lie any longer that we are a poor country. And we don't need an out of touch elite in London deciding how much of our own money we should have to spend. We just need a bit of Australian confidence."

What an awful strawman argument that was!

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Thought yes was all about not caring what the world thought about us and charting our own course?

You're right. Voting Yes is about taking control of your own destiny. Being a laughing stock is only relevant with a no vote.

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You're right. Voting Yes is about taking control of your own destiny. Being a laughing stock is only relevant with a no vote.

 

Oh ok. Well Holyrood has been really naff at charting a Scottish course in the union the past 15 years then. Forgot we adhered to go commissioning a few years back. Toothless place that Holyrood. Struggling to name any achievements it's made.

 

It's our nation. Our people. Our choice. If Sweden want a laugh at us then fair enough. What you've described is the nationalist cringe on this. Do it, for fear of what the world will think of us. More than most have called for a strong United Kingdom to come out of this. How many international organisations and leader have gone about cheering us on to leave the UK? Can't think of many.

 

It's our choice. Our future. Our nation. Our call. Quebec isn't a laughing stock to the world.

 

If no wins it's because a majority of Scots don't think the yes camp won the arguments and that they don't feel their nationhood is not reflected or given space to grow and flourish in the Union. If we choose to stand shoulder to shoulder with the rest of the UK, then that's also a strong statement of our solidarity and strength. Sovereignty doesn't equate to nationhood and a national character. The EU is Sovereign in it's affairs. Doesn't make it a nation like ours.

 

All this laughing stock stuff is nonsense.

Edited by JamboX2
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What other country in the world wouldn't vote for independance? We'll be known as a nation of cowards if we don't take this chance.

 

No we won't, we'll be known as a nation of canny people who don't believe they can live in the Land of Milk and Honey and realise that most people do well or at least as well as in any other country. Self-confident people and countries do what is in their pragmatic best interest and people and countries lacking in self-confidence boast, show off, sneer and think it's all a matter of self-confidence. Flair and card displays are for Hibs, 14,000 boring barstewards and 5-1 wins are for Hearts.

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No we won't, we'll be known as a nation of canny people who don't believe they can live in the Land of Milk and Honey and realise that most people do well or at least as well as in any other country. Self-confident people and countries do what is in their pragmatic best interest and people and countries lacking in self-confidence boast, show off, sneer and think it's all a matter of self-confidence. Flair and card displays are for Hibs, 14,000 boring barstewards and 5-1 wins are for Hearts.

Name me 1 "self confident country" that isn't independant?

 

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What other country in the world wouldn't vote for independance? We'll be known as a nation of cowards if we don't take this chance.

 

Not at all. We'd be known as a nation who looked at what was being proposed and decided that it was not in the best interests of our country at that moment in time. Nothing cowardly about that.

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MrWinningSmith

So Phones4U is about to go to the wall... How long before somebody blames the referendum?

Edited by MrWinningSmith
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Name me 1 "self confident country" that isn't independant?

 

"Country" is only used about non-sovereign entities in the UK, but cultural areas that are self-confident in their identities but not seeking independence: the US South (not for 149 years), Asturias, England, New England, Valencia, Andalusia, the Scottish Gaeltacht.

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They're not countries

 

In what way are they not?

 

Unique history, linguistic differences from those around them, history of independence in two cases there and have separatists and nationalism like Scotland which is prevalent.

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They're not countries

 

Your argument is like saying it's cowardly not to make a solo, heroic run at goal when a pass to a better-placed team-mate is on. The pass is the best option and in no way reflects badly on the player making the pass.

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In what way are they not?

 

Unique history, linguistic differences from those around them, history of independence in two cases there and have separatists and nationalism like Scotland which is prevalent.

Ok, you're right, Quebec and Catalonia are both countries. Must've missed Quebec at the Commonwealths and Catalonia at the Euro qualifiers.

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Your argument is like saying it's cowardly not to make a solo, heroic run at goal when a pass to a better-placed team-mate is on. The pass is the best option and in no way reflects badly on the player making the pass.

No, it's like saying you have a once in a lifetime chance to make a heroic run at goal, and when you're clean through with only the keeper to beat, you choose to pass back to to your own goalie as you're more afraid of losing what you've got than gaining the potential glory on offer.

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Evidence for the bit in bold please

Don't need to go furthrer than the EU:

 

? The first group includes Denmark, Finland, Luxembourg. These countries

present the lowest inequality rates in the EU.

? The second group comprises Italy, Germany, Austria and Sweden.

? The third group is formed by, Belgium, France which are countries whose

inequality is stable and located in the middle of the set of countries.

? The fourth group composed by The Netherlands.

? The fifth group, includes United Kingdom, Ireland, Greece, Spain and Portugal,

and presents the greatest inequality indicator levels, thus their income

distributions are the most unequal across the EU.

 

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CEsQFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.uib.cat%2Fcongres%2Fecopub%2Fecineq%2Fpapers%2F100Dominguez-Nunez.pdf&ei=Ji4WVMfIKZPPaKDagNgG&usg=AFQjCNHv9lRgNaIsSnsIneMD0Ug1P96yXg&sig2=yqj1oKhGT4Eh4fHiigb4cQ&bvm=bv.75097201,d.ZWU (page 19)

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Ok, you're right, Quebec and Catalonia are both countries. Must've missed Quebec at the Commonwealths and Catalonia at the Euro qualifiers.

 

They are not independent countries but they are "nations", whatever that is. Scotland is also a "nation" and was an independent state.

 

As you know perfectly well, UK sports teams are separated into the constituent nations for most sports. Though there is an all-Ireland rugby union team and an English cricket team that fields Welsh players.

 

"Country" is a special term used, when not referring to sovereign states, only in the UK and in the name "Basque Country".

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No, it's like saying you have a once in a lifetime chance to make a heroic run at goal, and when you're clean through with only the keeper to beat, you choose to pass back to to your own goalie as you're more afraid of losing what you've got than gaining the potential glory on offer.

 

There is no glory in changing from being part of the 6th biggest economy in the world with a chance to influence world events to being a small country that nobody outside of Scotland will care about.

 

Since this referendum may well have political consequences in Spain, I went to two bookshops today to see if there were any books on the Scottish referendum for Spanish readers, even translations from English. Not one in either of the two main bookshops in central Madrid.

 

It takes more bravery to applaud an opponent magnanimously than to lash out.

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There is no glory in changing from being part of the 6th biggest economy in the world with a chance to influence world events to being a small country that nobody outside of Scotland will care about.

 

Since this referendum may well have political consequences in Spain, I went to two bookshops today to see if there were any books on the Scottish referendum for Spanish readers, even translations from English. Not one in either of the two main bookshops in central Madrid.

 

It takes more bravery to applaud an opponent magnanimously than to lash out.

Weird that central Madrid wouldn't support independence....

Edited by invernessjt
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Weird that central Madrid wouldn't support independance....

 

It's not about supporting, it's about informing readers.

 

Anyway, Scotland can be as self-confident as it likes without independence. But on the proviso that self-confidence has nothing to do with shaming and blaming everything on others.

 

Do you think Scotland is perfect? If not, are Scottish society, Scottish policies and Scottish people to blame to any extent for that imperfection?

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It's not about supporting, it's about informing readers.

 

Anyway, Scotland can be as self-confident as it likes without independence. But on the proviso that self-confidence has nothing to do with shaming and blaming everything on others.

 

Do you think Scotland is perfect? If not, are Scottish society, Scottish policies and Scottish people to blame to any extent for that imperfection?

Ok, weird that central Madrid won't "inform" people about infependence.

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Ok, weird that central Madrid won't "inform" people about infependence.

 

I think his point was that no-one thought it worthwhile to write or sell something about the subject, whether informing, supporting or opposing. Mind you, I'm not sure it's all that surprising. Even in Ireland there has been less talk about the issue than you'd expect considering we are next door neighbours with a shared language and a heightened political interest in the constitutional affairs of the UK.

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Ok, weird that central Madrid won't "inform" people about infependence.

 

Please answer this question:

 

Do you think Scotland is perfect? If not, are Scottish society, Scottish policies and Scottish people to blame to any extent for that imperfection?

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ToadKiller Dog

Tom Devine Sums up why he thinks it may be heading to a yes vote .

 

http://www.heraldscotland.com/mobile/comment/columnists/break-up-of-the-union-how-the-independence-battle-was-won.25298879

 

To me the break up of the Union is inevitable , a no win can only delay it a bit longer . I don't think you can compare us with Quebec or the Basque countries as our backgrounds/political and historical are different .

 

I agree with Devine that federalism is the only way that may save the Union longer term , Can't see the Tory Party go down that road , not sure about London Labour their ties to Westminster might be to strong .

 

There is a strong movement for real lasting change and I don't think what the Nos are offering will appease them long term .

Edited by ToadKiller Dog
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