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Scottish independence and devolution superthread


Happy Hearts

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Is anyone else getting group emailed about the referendum?

 

I have had four in the past week urging me to vote No. The most recent is from a business owner (of a pretty big company) that opens with :

 

"I?m voting no on Thursday because whatever my heart may tell me about national identity, my head knows that the financial consequences of independence will be devastating. Virtually everyone I know in the business community agrees with this view."

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Geoff Kilpatrick

"On Fields of Green" blogger and Yes voter James Forrest makes a fair comparison of "Project Fear" with the Scottish football authorities Armageddon predictions a couple of years ago.

 

http://www.onfieldsofgreen.com/our-biggest-game/

Yet misses a key point - where England has football's big bucks (read the City of London), Salmond wants to keep that single market with the currency union.

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  • Moderators

We've had to delete a whole line of posts because of some unnecessary comments about voting demographics. Members shouldn't make trolling remarks of this kind, and members are also reminded that if you think a post is inappropriate you should report it so that it can be dealt with by the moderators.

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BoJack Horseman

http://www.bbc.co.uk...otland-29202728

 

Young shipbuilders have 'grave concerns' about a Yes vote

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk...siness-29204131

 

Richard Branson thinks the consequences of a Yes vote are "potentially quite catastrophic".

 

 

So it miiiiight be bad. Miiiiight be good. Glad that's that cleared up.

 

Is this what we've got to look forward to until Thursday? More scenarios that might or might not happen being touted in a way that makes them seem probable. It's an easy way to put fear into voters, by listing all negative potential outcomes. I've yet to hear a No voter say what positive things might happen to Scotland. They seem to be lacking in those.

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http://www.bbc.co.uk...otland-29202728

 

Young shipbuilders have 'grave concerns' about a Yes vote

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk...siness-29204131

 

Richard Branson thinks the consequences of a Yes vote are "potentially quite catastrophic".

 

I'd have some sympathy for people in the shipbuilding industry who are expressing worries, and I do think it is fanciful to think that the industry in Scotland can diversify from military to commercial work.

 

But I don't buy the line from Branson. He just seems to be waffling.

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Its amazing how other small independent countries manage. We truly are the baby of all countries who need too be looked after as we simply wouldnt be able to function in the real world on our own and never will.

Edited by Brandt
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Sounds like his understanding of 'nationalism' hasn't shifted since the 1970s (or 30s).

 

I don't see how. No, it isn't militant fascism but it's still nationalism.

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http://www.bbc.co.uk...otland-29202728

 

Young shipbuilders have 'grave concerns' about a Yes vote

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk...siness-29204131

 

Richard Branson thinks the consequences of a Yes vote are "potentially quite catastrophic".

 

He doesn't completely dismiss the idea though, in fact he doesn't really say all that much about it. It's all ifs and buts.

 

Nice to see you highlighting businesses backing the Yes campaign in the same article though.

 

Of course, as well as the business leaders who have come out against a Yes vote, there are many who say that an independent Scotland "would be a great success" - to use the words of Martin Gilbert, who runs Aberdeen Asset Management, the largest investment fund in Scotland.

Willie Walsh, the chief executive of International Airlines Group which owns British Airways, said that an independent Scotland could be good for his business - particularly if the new government scraps airport passenger duty which none of the airlines like.

Edited by rossthejambo
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Ross, Martin Gilbert said that Scotland would prosper whether it was independent or not. His statement was basically that it won't make much difference either way. Shameful bias reporting from the BBC the way that one was reported, tut tut.

Edited by jambo1185
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I don't see how. No, it isn't militant fascism but it's still nationalism.

 

But he suggests that all nationalism is intrinsically bad or ugly.

 

There's been a vast movement in the last 20 years for regional and national identity to become more fiercely defended and defined as globalisation has spread.

 

It's an understandable reaction. There's been very little anti-English nonsense in this campaign, thankfully - so far it's a nationalism largely defined by borders rather than ethnicity or country of birth.

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Anyone stock piling on Milk, Bread and bottled water for the Armageddon that is going to happen on Friday?? No, didn't think so....

Multi-packs of baked beans on offer in Tesco. Get them before they are (i) sold out, or (ii) increased in price by 3000%. Edited by jambo1185
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Ross, Martin Gilbert said that Scotland would prosper whether it was independent or not. His statement was basically that it won't make much difference either way. Shameful bias reporting from the BBC the way that one was reported, tut tut.

 

Which I imagine is far closer to the truth than anything else that has been said.

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He doesn't completely dismiss the idea though, in fact he doesn't really say all that much about it. It's all ifs and buts.

 

Nice to see you highlighting businesses backing the Yes campaign in the same article though.

Ross, Martin Gilbert said that Scotland would prosper whether it was independent or not. Shameful bias reporting from the BBC the way that one was reported, tut tut.

This.

 

And of course BA think it'll be a good idea - the Scottish government has promised to cut passenger duty.

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This.

 

And of course BA think it'll be a good idea - the Scottish government has promised to cut passenger duty.

 

Congrats on your 2000 post on the thread :smile:

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He doesn't completely dismiss the idea though, in fact he doesn't really say all that much about it. It's all ifs and buts.

 

Nice to see you highlighting businesses backing the Yes campaign in the same article though.

 

Martin Gilbert was seriously misquoted. He said Scotland woudl be a success in both cases, i.e. a meaningless statement. Media just picked on his words and manipulated his intent.

 

And Walsh - What he said is Scotland could reduce airport landing charges that would be good for BA... Of course it would! But it would therefore be less income for Scottish airports. So hardly good news for Scotland.

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Anyone stock piling on Milk, Bread and bottled water for the Armageddon that is going to happen on Friday?? No, didn't think so....

 

And keep their prices post independence down in the process :smile:

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Which I imagine is far closer to the truth than anything else that has been said.

Agreed, which is why I have no doubts (as a no voter) that Scotland will be fine as an independent country (probably some very tough times in the short term as those in the know have pretty much universally predicted, but we will come through eventually - I do have a concern that these real immediate concerns are too easily dismissed by elements of the yes camp), I just have no desire to see independence, predominantly as I consider myself to be British and as mentioned before have seen nothing which would convince me to walk away from that aspect of my identity.

Edited by jambo1185
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Anyone stock piling on Milk, Bread and bottled water for the Armageddon that is going to happen on Friday?? No, didn't think so....

 

I'm going to get a couple of slabs of Belhaven in if that counts. And a bottle of Hendricks while I'm at it. May as well go the whole hog.

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Martin Gilbert was seriously misquoted. He said Scotland woudl be a success in both cases, i.e. a meaningless statement. Media just picked on his words and manipulated his intent.

 

And Walsh - What he said is Scotland could reduce airport landing charges that would be good for BA... Of course it would! But it would therefore be less income for Scottish airports. So hardly good news for Scotland.

 

I was more picking out the fact that in both cases the media have selectively quoted the person to put them on either side of the debate and to create headlines.

 

Like I said already, all the talk of financial catastrophe is a long way from the truth. Whatever way the vote goes, the country isn't going to go into financial meltdown, there may well be a slump in the markets because of the uncertainty but it's not going to be the disaster that people make out.

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Arse 'Friends' Dyslexic?

Anyone stock piling on Milk, Bread and bottled water for the Armageddon that is going to happen on Friday?? No, didn't think so....

 

Just popcorn.

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BoJack Horseman

I was more picking out the fact that in both cases the media have selectively quoted the person to put them on either side of the debate and to create headlines.

 

Like I said already, all the talk of financial catastrophe is a long way from the truth. Whatever way the vote goes, the country isn't going to go into financial meltdown, there may well be a slump in the markets because of the uncertainty but it's not going to be the disaster that people make out.

 

Agree with this. I know folk are getting sick of the word scaremongering, but it just sums it all up for me, and it makes sense why it's being banded about so much. Any time I hear a No campaigner speak (which isn't often mind), it's constantly about the potential worst case scenario. None seem to take on the idea of the most realistic scenario, or the best case scenario, always the worst. If that's not projecting fear on the voters then I don't know what is. It's great that we are talking about the negative eventualities, because we need to know what they might be. But to talk about them as inevitabilities is just plain scaremongering, nothing else.

 

Don't get married. It might end in divorce. That's all I'm hearing.

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BoJack Horseman

Surely it's more a case of, don't get divorced, you might regret it?

 

If we're going that route it ends up in the "sunk cost fallacy". Perpetuating the status quo because so much time has already been invested in it. BUT WE'VE BEEN TOGETHER 300 YEARS, DON'T CHUCK THAT AWAY. That sort of thing. Like clinging on to a dead marriage.

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If we're going that route it ends up in the "sunk cost fallacy". Perpetuating the status quo because so much time has already been invested in it. BUT WE'VE BEEN TOGETHER 300 YEARS, DON'T CHUCK THAT AWAY. That sort of thing. Like clinging on to a dead marriage.

Ah, but have you really tried to make the marriage work, aren't you just giving up at the first opportunity and walking away instead of fighting to make things better? Why not try some counseling, give things another go. (I'm teasing, I totally take your point). The no campaign has, I think everyone can agree, been dreadful, but it's not going to change now. Nothing anyone is raising in complaint about their approach with 4 days to go is any different to what they were moaning about 6 months ago. It is what it is, sadly. But it is much, much, easier for yes to create a positive vision for change (whether or not their is substance behind that vision is anther matter). Better Together really needed to do a bit more thinking about things at the start, and win or lose there needs to be some serious looking into how the campaign was designed and run. In debates we've seen politicians like Alexander and Davidson (who has won a few admirers but realistically not any new votes) speak quite passionately about the union, that has too often been completely lacking in the wider public campaign. One of the few truly excellent pieces on voting know was by Massie in the Spectator, sadly that kind of passion and positive vision for the union has been too few, and may have come too late.

Edited by jambo1185
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Malinga the Swinga

 

Its amazing how other small independent countries manage. We truly are the baby of all countries who need too be looked after as we simply wouldnt be able to function in the real world on our own and never will.

 

But other small independent countries aren't starting from our position. We are a small country, attached to others who make up a larger entity and are doing nicely from it. We are risking all the benefits of this union for something that may in the long term be better, but will in the short term be worse and may in the long term be worse. This is not the time for a small country to take a reckless risk for the vanity of a few who are well off and can afford to lose the vote. If we could have 50-100 years to develop as a country, in the same time period as others, prior to the last 100 or so years of industrial development, then maybe go for it, but we have so much to lose for such a little gain.

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But he suggests that all nationalism is intrinsically bad or ugly.

 

There's been a vast movement in the last 20 years for regional and national identity to become more fiercely defended and defined as globalisation has spread.

 

It's an understandable reaction. There's been very little anti-English nonsense in this campaign, thankfully - so far it's a nationalism largely defined by borders rather than ethnicity or country of birth.

 

This "vast movement" is nationalism. Catalans, Basques, Galicians, Scots, Welsh, Quebecois, etc. It's all nationalism even if not nation-state nationalism. Why is it an understandable reaction? I believe you've worked in New York and London (at least). I don't suggest that makes you "less Scottish" but does it not make you feel like a local, parochial identity is not something worth settling for? Identities can be expanded and mixed and matched until we have something that suits each of us. The internet and the opportunity to travel, work, live and study abroad that many people have allow for that.

 

There has been hunners o' anti-English nonsense. Not explicitly from the official Yes campaign but it's very easy to find anti-Englishness on the interweb.

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I especially take agin the Yes side called London-based journalists "metropolitan journalists".

 

Bertram Wilberforce Wooster used to refer to London as "the metrop." and I don't like their plaigiarism.

 

(This is for light relief, only).

Edited by Gorgiewave
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http://www.bbc.co.uk...otland-29202728

 

Young shipbuilders have 'grave concerns' about a Yes vote

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk...siness-29204131

 

Richard Branson thinks the consequences of a Yes vote are "potentially quite catastrophic".

 

And the unelected Queen thinks Scots should think carefully before voting ! How patronising and ironic ! You couldn't make this up. Bullying, threat after threat and how we are going to punished if we vote Yes. Any other country that decides to govern its own affairs is offered help and guidance...Scotland we are told will implode on Friday if it is a yes vote. I remember all this before on the lead up to the 2 devolution votes.

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You could argue that positioning the yes campaign as "TEAM SCOTLAND" is anti-English rhetoric, although it's probably just more offensive to no voters.

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And the unelected Queen thinks Scots should think carefully before voting ! How patronising and ironic ! You couldn't make this up. Bullying, threat after threat and how we are going to punished if we vote Yes. Any other country that decides to govern its own affairs is offered help and guidance...Scotland we are told will implode on Friday if it is a yes vote. I remember all this before on the lead up to the 2 devolution votes.

From the sounds of things certain elements of the yes campaign are going to be dishing out their own punishment if there is a yes vote on Thursday. I am looking forward to my day of reckoning.

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And the unelected Queen thinks Scots should think carefully before voting ! How patronising and ironic ! You couldn't make this up. Bullying, threat after threat and how we are going to punished if we vote Yes. Any other country that decides to govern its own affairs is offered help and guidance...Scotland we are told will implode on Friday if it is a yes vote. I remember all this before on the lead up to the 2 devolution votes.

Nobody is bullying us. Nobody is threatening us.

 

Salmond has whipped up this type of ?chip on the shoulder? nationalism. People are lapping it up.

 

Whereas Sillars has actually threatened those who disagree with him

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This "vast movement" is nationalism. Catalans, Basques, Galicians, Scots, Welsh, Quebecois, etc. It's all nationalism even if not nation-state nationalism. Why is it an understandable reaction? I believe you've worked in New York and London (at least). I don't suggest that makes you "less Scottish" but does it not make you feel like a local, parochial identity is not something worth settling for? Identities can be expanded and mixed and matched until we have something that suits each of us. The internet and the opportunity to travel, work, live and study abroad that many people have allow for that.

 

There has been hunners o' anti-English nonsense. Not explicitly from the official Yes campaign but it's very easy to find anti-Englishness on the interweb.

 

Oh the anti-English agenda. Yes there is a minority who don't like the English in Scotland. Go to any country and you will find a minority sometimes a majority who do not like their neighbours. Thats life. However, the vast majority of Scots have feel nothing against the English and all people who live in England. Indeed when Scotland becomes independent both countries will need each other for trade etc. Indeed independence will stop some Scots blaming the English for everything that goes wrong. We will only have our selves to blame but also have ourselves to praise. The way it should be for any self respecting country.

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You could argue that positioning the yes campaign as "TEAM SCOTLAND" is anti-English rhetoric, although it's probably just more offensive to no voters.

 

It was certainly offensive enough to Lyndsey Sharp to make her distance herself from it.

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BoJack Horseman

But other small independent countries aren't starting from our position. We are a small country, attached to others who make up a larger entity and are doing nicely from it. We are risking all the benefits of this union for something that may in the long term be better, but will in the short term be worse and may in the long term be worse. This is not the time for a small country to take a reckless risk for the vanity of a few who are well off and can afford to lose the vote. If we could have 50-100 years to develop as a country, in the same time period as others, prior to the last 100 or so years of industrial development, then maybe go for it, but we have so much to lose for such a little gain.

 

Granted I've only been following the campaigns for the last week or so, but I've yet to hear anyone mention what these benefits actually are. They should rebrand their campaign as "Worse off alone".

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Nobody is bullying us. Nobody is threatening us.

 

Salmond has whipped up this type of ?chip on the shoulder? nationalism. People are lapping it up.

 

Whereas Sillars has actually threatened those who disagree with him

 

Oh dear ! 'People are lapping it up'. Did I say patronising ? Both sides have all types of characters and I could name many on the No side who have ridiculed their own cause. Indeed there were 10,000 of them marching/stomping their way through Edinburgh on Saturday albeit many were from Northern Ireland.

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This "vast movement" is nationalism. Catalans, Basques, Galicians, Scots, Welsh, Quebecois, etc. It's all nationalism even if not nation-state nationalism. Why is it an understandable reaction? I believe you've worked in New York and London (at least). I don't suggest that makes you "less Scottish" but does it not make you feel like a local, parochial identity is not something worth settling for? Identities can be expanded and mixed and matched until we have something that suits each of us. The internet and the opportunity to travel, work, live and study abroad that many people have allow for that.

 

There has been hunners o' anti-English nonsense. Not explicitly from the official Yes campaign but it's very easy to find anti-Englishness on the interweb.

 

Personally I don't see it as that, I see myself as Scottish and British but I think as a country we'll be better off independent. There's every chance I could be in the minority with that opinion having said that.

 

There does seem to be an unfair tarring of Yes voters as anti-English or anti-British when that's not the case.

 

 

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And the unelected Queen thinks Scots should think carefully before voting ! How patronising and ironic ! You couldn't make this up. Bullying, threat after threat and how we are going to punished if we vote Yes. Any other country that decides to govern its own affairs is offered help and guidance...Scotland we are told will implode on Friday if it is a yes vote. I remember all this before on the lead up to the 2 devolution votes.

 

She expressed no preference either way and said what many of the older generation would naturally say to people.

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Granted I've only been following the campaigns for the last week or so, but I've yet to hear anyone mention what these benefits actually are. They should rebrand their campaign as "Worse off alone".

 

Thats a pity. This discussion has been going on for over 2 years.

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Oh the anti-English agenda. Yes there is a minority who don't like the English in Scotland. Go to any country and you will find a minority sometimes a majority who do not like their neighbours. Thats life. However, the vast majority of Scots have feel nothing against the English and all people who live in England. Indeed when Scotland becomes independent both countries will need each other for trade etc. Indeed independence will stop some Scots blaming the English for everything that goes wrong. We will only have our selves to blame but also have ourselves to praise. The way it should be for any self respecting country.

 

Do you think any of Scotland's current problems are of Scottish origin? Scottish people, Scottish politicians, Scottish society, Scottish decisions, Scottish customs, etc. Are they to blame for anything that is wrong in Scotland?

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Bullying, threat after threat and how we are going to punished if we vote Yes.

 

This statement makes sense - also makes just as much sense if the word 'Yes' is replaced with the word 'No'.

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She expressed no preference either way and said what many of the older generation would naturally say to people.

 

Do you really believe she offered no opinion. Really? It was cynical and reeked of Buckingham Palace and the Empire. Quite clever.

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Do you think any of Scotland's current problems are of Scottish origin? Scottish people, Scottish politicians, Scottish society, Scottish decisions, Scottish customs, etc. Are they to blame for anything that is wrong in Scotland?

 

Yes.

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Oh dear ! 'People are lapping it up'. Did I say patronising ? Both sides have all types of characters and I could name many on the No side who have ridiculed their own cause. Indeed there were 10,000 of them marching/stomping their way through Edinburgh on Saturday albeit many were from Northern Ireland.

What is 'their own cause'? That sounds awfy 'team Scotland' esq.

 

People are lapping it up - I am sorry if you think that sounds patronising.

 

The 'they're telling us we're too stupid', 'they're saying we cant do it' has been a permanent feature of this campaign and even in this thread. Salmond knows this - as does Sturgeon. They play it up at every opportunity.

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