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Scottish independence and devolution superthread


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Awfy confused with all this chat from big Zander -

 

He bangs on about the 'lever of powers' he needs to fix things economically for us eg. control of monetary policy. He then confirms he wants to hand them straight back by surrendering the currency to a foreign power = UK who would set interest rates, exchange rates , have to sign off budgets and spending etc = what sort of Nationalist does that?

 

Ditto with his social and political levers. Why would he want to hand over 70% of our sovereignty to the EU? (if we got in). Scots law nae mair! His minimum bevvy price law will be decided by Brussels and Berlin!!

 

Thought his catch phrase was ' No one is better placed than the Scottish people to decide what is best for Scotland'. Brussels, Berlin and London will do the talking if Zander gets his way.

 

Seems like he's flogging seperation from the uk rather than independence. He won't give a fig once we're divided. He's got 6 public pensions to keep him in betting slips.

 

Oh well, in a couple of days, we could be under the yoke of the Weege for a long time to come. All pain and NO gain! So careful what you wish for cause ye canny take it back to the shops.

 

East Kilbride nae mair

Rosyth nae mair

Faslane nae mair

BAE nae mair

Standard Life nae mair (well tidlier than it was)

RBOS nae mair

HBOS nae mair

Lossiemouth nae mair

Ah could go on and .....

 

We live in bemusing times. Anyone up for taking Edinburgh Indy ??

 

I'm in, if we can exclude Lochend.

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None of the various machinations and intrigues of international relations in the 18th Century alters the fact that Scotland benefited enormously from the union; that much is documented. The Scotland we know today came about as part of the union. Most of the great Scots we laud today prospered in the union - Watt, Hume, Smith, Fleming and a host of others.

It has been Scotland's independence within the Union - in law, in education - that created the environment that allowed Scotland to flourish. Remember that at the time of Union, England was 14 times wealthier than Scotland - a gap that closed rapidly and nowadays is negligible despite the "poor, wee nation" rant from Sturgeon.

 

Will independence make all Scots happier, wealthier, healthier? It might but the crucial question is when? This year? Next year? 2020? 2030? Most of what I read says 10 to 15 years with austerity on the way.

 

Will that time-span satisfy the bulk of those tempted to vote Yes? In this day and age, I doubt it.

 

Spot on.

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markets crash and rises in events everyday, its such a stupid argument to put forward for a No vote.

 

We have just came out of the worse depression in living memory, how much did it really effect our lives in the bigger picture.

 

Massively is the answer

Friends and associates of mine lost their jobs, homes, the works.

One took his own life after cutbacks took his job and his pride,

If you really think economics and financial stability are not important you are not worth your vote.

Suicide rates and incidence of bankruptcy have spiralled.

Those who have survived this depression (economic) have no desire to return there.

After 6 years of financial worry and pain I have no wish for any kind of upheaval thanks very much

Edited by doctor jambo
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Massively is the answer

Friends and associates of mine lost their jobs, homes, the works.

One took his own life after cutbacks took his job and his pride,

If you really think economics and financial stability are not important you are not worth your vote.

Suicide rates and incidence of bankruptcy have spiralled.

Those who have survived this depression (economic) have no desire to return there.

After 6 years of financial worry and pain I have no wish for any kind of upheaval thanks very much

 

And to make things worse, we (the uk) are actually emerging from the mess and looking to prosper and 'Team Scotland' are about to go and mess it all up for everyone by voting for change. This will make everything go into reverse and the whole austerity cycle starts again but so much worse this time for Scotland.

 

As Ally McCoist used to say "be careful what you wish for". He was talking crap cos we all wanted rangers to suffer but in this case nobody wants to see Scotland suffer.

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Will independence make all Scots happier, wealthier, healthier? It might but the crucial question is when? This year? Next year? 2020? 2030? Most of what I read says 10 to 15 years with austerity on the way.

 

Will that time-span satisfy the bulk of those tempted to vote Yes? In this day and age, I doubt it.

 

And this is what I genuinely fear. Independence won't work straight out the box. It'll take years however it remains to be seen just how many.

 

Yes we'll never know unless we do it but the cost remains to be seen.

 

My heart says yes all day long but my head says no.

 

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And to make things worse, we (the uk) are actually emerging from the mess and looking to prosper and 'Team Scotland' are about to go and mess it all up for everyone by voting for change. This will make everything go into reverse and the whole austerity cycle starts again but so much worse this time for Scotland.

 

As Ally McCoist used to say "be careful what you wish for". He was talking crap cos we all wanted rangers to suffer but in this case nobody wants to see Scotland suffer.

 

That austerity cycle will begin afresh in May even if Thursday's result is a 'No'.

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Massively is the answer

Friends and associates of mine lost their jobs, homes, the works.

One took his own life after cutbacks took his job and his pride,

If you really think economics and financial stability are not important you are not worth your vote.

Suicide rates and incidence of bankruptcy have spiralled.

Those who have survived this depression (economic) have no desire to return there.

After 6 years of financial worry and pain I have no wish for any kind of upheaval thanks very much

 

So after all we went thru in the last 6 years you want to keep the same folk in power? what is there to stop it happening again? You do realise that markets will go up and down regardless what happens.

So as long as you are fine, **** the rest?

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Geoff Kilpatrick

 

 

So after all we went thru in the last 6 years you want to keep the same folk in power? what is there to stop it happening again? You do realise that markets will go up and down regardless what happens.

So as long as you are fine, **** the rest?

Why would different people operating the same policies produce different results?

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But no oilfields

 

Yes they do. Many of the major oilfields would be in Shetland waters, not Scotlands, in the case of Shetland Independence. The boundaries would be redrawn.

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So after all we went thru in the last 6 years you want to keep the same folk in power? what is there to stop it happening again? You do realise that markets will go up and down regardless what happens.

So as long as you are fine, **** the rest?

 

As to your last point, the vast majority of people are voting out of self interest. Yes voters can dress it up if they want, but mostly they think yes will lead to better outcomes for them, **** those for whom it might not. Similarly, no voters predominantly find themselves suited under the current set up, or think independence would be to their detriment, so won't vote for change. It's human nature.

 

When people talk about a better future for Scotland, their children and their children's children, that "better future" is completely defined by your own perspective and experience. If you feel the union is hampering your prospects and those of you close to you, you believe a better future lies in independence, if you have done well out of the union, you believe a better future lies within it. Very few vote for completely altruistic reasons, some will try to pretend and protest that they are, but when you get into the guts of their reasons it's because independence or the union will (in their view) give them what they want, or view as being 'better'.

 

Yes voters who don't want another Tory government and a "fairer" society, effectively turning their backs on those in the rest of the UK and leaving them to almost certain Tory governments for the near future. But as long as they are fine up this side of the border, **** the rest?

Edited by jambo1185
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That austerity cycle will begin afresh in May even if Thursday's result is a 'No'.

 

There are meant to be ?25bn more cuts for austerity. Scotland's portion of that will be ?2.5bn. This year, the amount of oil was billions under expectations and being in the uk meant we didn't suffer as a result. If the same happens next year after a yes vote, we will be wishing we just had another ?2.5bn of cuts in comparison to the cuts we'd then need to make to balance the books!

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As to your last point, the vast majority of people are voting out of self interest. Yes voters can dress it up if they want, but mostly they think yes will lead to better outcomes for them, **** those for whom it might not. Similarly, no voters predominantly find themselves suited under the current set up, or think independence would be to their detriment, so won't vote for change. It's human nature.

 

When people talk about a better future for Scotland, their children and their children's children, that "better future" is completely defined by your own perspective and experience. If you feel the union is hampering your prospects and those of you close to you, you believe a better future lies in independence, if you have done well out of the union, you believe a better future lies within it. Very few vote for completely altruistic reasons, some will try to pretend and protest that they are, but when you get into the guts of their reasons it's because independence or the union will (in their view) give them what they want, or view as being 'better'.

 

Yes voters who don't want another Tory government and a "fairer" society, effectively turning their backs on those in the rest of the UK and leaving them to almost certain Tory governments for the near future. But as long as they are fine up this side of the border, **** the rest?

 

On your last point. I wonder if Labour will break ranks and ask that Scotland stay in the UK to boot the Tories at the next General election. I'm surprised at Yes voters who want Tories booted but are happy for them to stay in power in England. Socialism as a principle is meant to transcend boundaries, but Yes voters are too selfish to see that.

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"Obama urges Scotland not to ruin America's 'special relationship' with Britain by voting for independence"

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2756788/Obama-urges-Scotland-not-ruin-America-s-special-relationship-voting-independence.html

 

I find myself wondering if last-minute statements like this one from Obama benefit or harm the No campaign. It sounds as if it's very probably the result of another panic phone-call from Dave. Does anyone trust the man who admitted his government didn't even have a strategy on ISIS on other areas of foreign policy?

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markets crash and rises in events everyday, its such a stupid argument to put forward for a No vote.

 

We have just came out of the worse depression in living memory, how much did it really effect our lives in the bigger picture.

The markets had a significant fall on the Monday after the swing in polls to the Yes vote on the Sunday, it is faily obvious that was the reason.

Regarding your comment about the economic crisis there were numerous small businesses that went to the wall, people lost their homes, might not have had an effect on you but I know of plenty it did.

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Lord Beni of Gorgie

I don't want nuclear weapons, I want the money this country earns to stay in this country.

 

The Prime Minister of the UK has shown more interest in this country in the last two weeks more than the combined interest of the last five or six, only because he is distressed about loss of power.

 

Small tax raising powers and controls are too little too late, many many Scots from all walks of life are fed up being disrespected. Never have we seen this focus on Scotland, Gordon Brown clearly does not believe Cameron.

 

A no vote I believe will not allow Scotland to grow, only to keep surviving, just like the Rest of the UK. We can do better

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I find myself wondering if last-minute statements like this one from Obama benefit or harm the No campaign. It sounds as if it's very probably the result of another panic phone-call from Dave. Does anyone trust the man who admitted his government didn't even have a strategy on ISIS on other areas of foreign policy?

Did you watch the video?

 

It's a journalist pressing for a response.

 

Perhaps it was one of Murdoch's stooges hoping Obama had changed his mind

Edited by TheMaganator
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Boy I know in RBS legal.

 

:rofl:

 

A lawyer at a failed bank kens how international markets will behave?

 

You know the pound lost more than 25 percent of its value against the dollar between mid-2008 and 2009? **** me. 'Chaos' :rofl:

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Lord Beni of Gorgie

 

 

 

Massively is the answer

Friends and associates of mine lost their jobs, homes, the works.

One took his own life after cutbacks took his job and his pride,

If you really think economics and financial stability are not important you are not worth your vote.

Suicide rates and incidence of bankruptcy have spiralled.

Those who have survived this depression (economic) have no desire to return there.

After 6 years of financial worry and pain I have no wish for any kind of upheaval thanks very much

Crass to decide he is not worth his vote. Personally, all I see from people is what happens in their street. Not about the poor getting poorer, the disadvantaged becoming even more marginalised.

 

It's everyone's right to vote and everyone's right to an opinion, however much we may disagree with it

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:rofl:

 

A lawyer at a failed bank kens how international markets will behave?

 

You know the pound lost more than 25 percent of its value against the dollar between mid-2008 and 2009? **** me. 'Chaos' :rofl:

 

Tbf, he was told this by a high up. It's not his opinion.

 

But apart from that, his ramblings mirror those if Robert Peston.

 

But put it this way, there will be a statement to the markets on the future of Scotland's currency position within the day if not days after. The treasury will want it, and Salmond and the Scottish government will need to provide a plan if he treasury still don't accept CU.

 

To not would be to chuck Scotland into a financial abyss.

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I'll add I've seen and heard from others of contracts that have "referendum clauses". Ie, if the investor isn't satisfied on the outcome of the vote or the aftermath on currency etc, the work won't go ahead.

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The markets had a significant fall on the Monday after the swing in polls to the Yes vote on the Sunday, it is faily obvious that was the reason.

Regarding your comment about the economic crisis there were numerous small businesses that went to the wall, people lost their homes, might not have had an effect on you but I know of plenty it did.

 

Markets swing on a daily basis due to a thousand + reasons. Things will settle whichever way the vote goes. Don't believe all the scare mongering from the No camp. I have heard it twice before during both devolution votes. Each time I was told oil was running out, our taxes would rise, we couldn't govern ourselves under devolution and we would face years of poverty. Of course it was all rubbish and now I am hearing it all again. Luckily this time we have the Internet and its not so easy to lie to us with all the Unionists propaganda.

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I'll add I've seen and heard from others of contracts that have "referendum clauses". Ie, if the investor isn't satisfied on the outcome of the vote or the aftermath on currency etc, the work won't go ahead.

 

...and someone else will step in. For goodness sake...please try harder.

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Markets swing on a daily basis due to a thousand + reasons. Things will settle whichever way the vote goes. Don't believe all the scare mongering from the No camp. I have heard it twice before during both devolution votes. Each time I was told oil was running out, our taxes would rise, we couldn't govern ourselves under devolution and we would face years of poverty. Of course it was all rubbish and now I am hearing it all again. Luckily this time we have the Internet and its not so easy to lie to us with all the Unionists propaganda.

 

Devolution is a different beast.

 

You remain in the UK with that. Currency and interest rates aren't overly affected by that.

 

Independence does radically alter that balance.

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Markets swing on a daily basis due to a thousand + reasons. Things will settle whichever way the vote goes. Don't believe all the scare mongering from the No camp. I have heard it twice before during both devolution votes. Each time I was told oil was running out, our taxes would rise, we couldn't govern ourselves under devolution and we would face years of poverty. Of course it was all rubbish and now I am hearing it all again. Luckily this time we have the Internet and its not so easy to lie to us with all the Unionists propaganda.

We are not talking about devolution, whether you like it or not, the markets swung dramatically due to the swing in the polls.
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Salmond won't be making any statement to the markets. He is no position to do so, even if he wins.

 

It is not Mr Salmond who wins. The vote, as you well know Geoff, is about yes or no. If it is a yes, 2 years of negotiations follows during which time a settlement will be agreed with the remainder of the UK. A Scottish Government will be formed as per the wishes of the Scottish people through a democratic vote. It will probably not be Mr Salmond. I think after leading the SNP to 2 victories the most recent one by a landslide he will take a rest. He deserves the rest.

 

However, for the SNP it is a win win on Thursday. A yes vote = full independence and a No vote = devo max. The road to independence then continues through the democratic process of this country.

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...and someone else will step in. For goodness sake...please try harder.

 

Laugh all you want. There is a degree of financial and business skepticism of jumping into a nation with bugger all plans for what it's currency position is if a currency share deal can't be agreed.

 

The fact is and remains that both outcomes of this vote are relative unknowns. But No still retains the ? and a degree of financial and monetary security to which Yes has failed to provide. The lack of a domestic regulator and a central bank to stand behind our banks are why RBS, BoS and Clydesdale have said they'll go. Standard life etc too.

 

In time, 10-20 years that will mean jobs. Why retain Scottish jobs when your operation is based elsewhere?

 

Indepndence opens a world of difficulty as much as it does options. Currency union has and will be the Achilles heel of the yes campaign.

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Devolution is a different beast.

 

You remain in the UK with that. Currency and interest rates aren't overly affected by that.

 

Independence does radically alter that balance.

[modedit]

Propaganda, Conspiracy, Scaremongering, Irrelevant, Tory.

To each of the people who have given an adverse opinion on the future of Scotland in the event of Independence, however expert in their field, one of the above labels will be attached.

Choose your battles.

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It is not Mr Salmond who wins. The vote, as you well know Geoff, is about yes or no. If it is a yes, 2 years of negotiations follows during which time a settlement will be agreed with the remainder of the UK. A Scottish Government will be formed as per the wishes of the Scottish people through a democratic vote. It will probably not be Mr Salmond. I think after leading the SNP to 2 victories the most recent one by a landslide he will take a rest. He deserves the rest.

 

However, for the SNP it is a win win on Thursday. A yes vote = full independence and a No vote = devo max. The road to independence then continues through the democratic process of this country.

 

He's a blowhard showman who's had little substance to a light weight government who've sheltered the well to do for the harsh realities of the world the past 7 years without enacting the major reforms of the 2007 election manifesto - council tax and abolition of student debt. A charlatan,

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Geoff Kilpatrick

 

 

It is not Mr Salmond who wins. The vote, as you well know Geoff, is about yes or no. If it is a yes, 2 years of negotiations follows during which time a settlement will be agreed with the remainder of the UK. A Scottish Government will be formed as per the wishes of the Scottish people through a democratic vote. It will probably not be Mr Salmond. I think after leading the SNP to 2 victories the most recent one by a landslide he will take a rest. He deserves the rest.

 

However, for the SNP it is a win win on Thursday. A yes vote = full independence and a No vote = devo max. The road to independence then continues through the democratic process of this country.

I was referring to Jambox2's claim that he (Salmond) will need to make a market statement by Friday morning. Trust this clarifies.

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Awfy confused with all this chat from big Zander -

 

He bangs on about the 'lever of powers' he needs to fix things economically for us eg. control of monetary policy. He then confirms he wants to hand them straight back by surrendering the currency to a foreign power = UK who would set interest rates, exchange rates , have to sign off budgets and spending etc = what sort of Nationalist does that?

 

Ditto with his social and political levers. Why would he want to hand over 70% of our sovereignty to the EU? (if we got in). Scots law nae mair! His minimum bevvy price law will be decided by Brussels and Berlin!!

 

Thought his catch phrase was ' No one is better placed than the Scottish people to decide what is best for Scotland'. Brussels, Berlin and London will do the talking if Zander gets his way.

 

Seems like he's flogging seperation from the uk rather than independence. He won't give a fig once we're divided. He's got 6 public pensions to keep him in betting slips.

 

Oh well, in a couple of days, we could be under the yoke of the Weege for a long time to come. All pain and NO gain! So careful what you wish for cause ye canny take it back to the shops.

 

East Kilbride nae mair

Rosyth nae mair

Faslane nae mair

BAE nae mair

Standard Life nae mair (well tidlier than it was)

RBOS nae mair

HBOS nae mair

Lossiemouth nae mair

Ah could go on and .....

 

We live in bemusing times. Anyone up for taking Edinburgh Indy ??

 

Niall Ferguson took a similar "Letter from America" theme last Thursday although one of the more pertinent comments was that Alex Salmond is going to do to Scotland what David Murray did to Rangers - mismanagement of finances, based on faith (not confidence) in borrowings against an uncertain future and all to please his ego and to keep the Bears happy.

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It is not Mr Salmond who wins. The vote, as you well know Geoff, is about yes or no. If it is a yes, 2 years of negotiations follows during which time a settlement will be agreed with the remainder of the UK. A Scottish Government will be formed as per the wishes of the Scottish people through a democratic vote. It will probably not be Mr Salmond. I think after leading the SNP to 2 victories the most recent one by a landslide he will take a rest. He deserves the rest.

 

However, for the SNP it is a win win on Thursday. A yes vote = full independence and a No vote = devo max. The road to independence then continues through the democratic process of this country.

 

Salmonds legacy win or lose will be a divided country.

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Laugh all you want. There is a degree of financial and business skepticism of jumping into a nation with bugger all plans for what it's currency position is if a currency share deal can't be agreed.

 

The fact is and remains that both outcomes of this vote are relative unknowns. But No still retains the ? and a degree of financial and monetary security to which Yes has failed to provide. The lack of a domestic regulator and a central bank to stand behind our banks are why RBS, BoS and Clydesdale have said they'll go. Standard life etc too.

 

In time, 10-20 years that will mean jobs. Why retain Scottish jobs when your operation is based elsewhere?

 

Indepndence opens a world of difficulty as much as it does options. Currency union has and will be the Achilles heel of the yes campaign.

 

I am not laughing. However, you and I both know that during the 2 years of negotiations a compromise and settlement will be agreed on all matters including currency. We will become England's top importer just as Ireland is just now. It will be in the intents of both countries to agree on currency. What you mean is that currency is the tool the Unionists have been using to beat us into submission.

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I was referring to Jambox2's claim that he (Salmond) will need to make a market statement by Friday morning. Trust this clarifies.

 

I agree his words will carry little weight. But the feeling to those in the banks is he has to set out plan b on Friday morning if yes is winning. To not do so is an open door to greater levels of speculation and spiving on the ?.

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He's a blowhard showman who's had little substance to a light weight government who've sheltered the well to do for the harsh realities of the world the past 7 years without enacting the major reforms of the 2007 election manifesto - council tax and abolition of student debt. A charlatan,

 

and yet he gets the votes. Perhaps you are wrong. Democracy proves he wins.

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Geoff Kilpatrick

 

 

I am not laughing. However, you and I both know that during the 2 years of negotiations a compromise and settlement will be agreed on all matters including currency. We will become England's top importer just as Ireland is just now. It will be in the intents of both countries to agree on currency. What you mean is that currency is the tool the Unionists have been using to beat us into submission.

Given that Scotland plan to use sterling anyway why would the UK wish to underwrite their debts precisely?

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I am not laughing. However, you and I both know that during the 2 years of negotiations a compromise and settlement will be agreed on all matters including currency. We will become England's top importer just as Ireland is just now. It will be in the intents of both countries to agree on currency. What you mean is that currency is the tool the Unionists have been using to beat us into submission.

 

Why would independence result in us exporting more to rUK than we do at the moment?

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Geoff Kilpatrick

 

 

I agree his words will carry little weight. But the feeling to those in the banks is he has to set out plan b on Friday morning if yes is winning. To not do so is an open door to greater levels of speculation and spiving on the ?.

The Treasury and Bank of England will be active. If anything, Osborne will reaffirm that there will be no currency union.

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Arnold Rothstein

Why would independence result in us exporting more to rUK than we do at the moment?

 

You won't get a (sensible) answer to this question.

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I am not laughing. However, you and I both know that during the 2 years of negotiations a compromise and settlement will be agreed on all matters including currency. We will become England's top importer just as Ireland is just now. It will be in the intents of both countries to agree on currency. What you mean is that currency is the tool the Unionists have been using to beat us into submission.

 

I hope by us you mean Yes voters and not "Team Scotland" .

 

You do get the markets won't wait 2 years? Or that investors won't either?

 

The world isn't like that anymore. He British government had a day at most prior to bailing out RBS, not a few weeks.

 

What's needed is a statement from both parties as to the intent to form or not form a CU. If Whitehall, to which I've no doubt they will stick to their guns, then Salmond will need to outlay his plan b. If there is a plan b then he's effectively lied to the Scottish electorate on there being no need for a plan b since this whole thing began.

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The Treasury and Bank of England will be active. If anything, Osborne will reaffirm that there will be no currency union.

 

So Scotland will be screwed. Salmond has to at least offer a viable option. Pegging sterling and moves to legislate for a central bank would be the least no?

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Salmonds legacy win or lose will be a divided country.

 

As it always has been and as most countries are. The SNP was born before the ink was dry on the Act of Union. Every country is divided to a certain extent. However that is why we have democracy and elections. Nothing wrong with a divided country as long as it doesn't go down the road of Northern Ireland and we haven't.

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Tbf, he was told this by a high up. It's not his opinion.

 

But apart from that, his ramblings mirror those if Robert Peston.

 

But put it this way, there will be a statement to the markets on the future of Scotland's currency position within the day if not days after. The treasury will want it, and Salmond and the Scottish government will need to provide a plan if he treasury still don't accept CU.

 

To not would be to chuck Scotland into a financial abyss.

 

I also heard this via high up in the financial dept of rbs today. The pound value will plummet

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The Treasury and Bank of England will be active. If anything, Osborne will reaffirm that there will be no currency union.

 

Mr Osborne will not be around much longer. He will go, once he has been proven wrong.

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Geoff Kilpatrick

 

 

As it always has been and as most countries are. The SNP was born before the ink was dry on the Act of Union. Every country is divided to a certain extent. However that is why we have democracy and elections. Nothing wrong with a divided country as long as it doesn't go down the road of Northern Ireland and we haven't.

That's some gestation period - over 200 years! :lol:

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As it always has been and as most countries are. The SNP was born before the ink was dry on the Act of Union. Every country is divided to a certain extent. However that is why we have democracy and elections. Nothing wrong with a divided country as long as it doesn't go down the road of Northern Ireland and we haven't.

 

But we've gone down the road of political traffic jam in Holyrood. None of them can sit and talk. They are boiling with resentment of each other. How can you expect anyone to cooperate after this either way? They won't. A house divide, as Lincoln said, cannot stand.

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