Scottish independence and devolution superthread

[Mikey1874]

20 minutes ago, Hagar the Horrible said:

Patrick Harvey says: many people will be concerned at Forbes new role!  she has quite starling social conservative views

 

probably if you wear a green rosette it is  concern,  But I would say Swinney has raised a flag so far and wont sit on the fence

 

I am hoping Swinney and Forbes will be the Ying to the Yang, Whereas Humza was just the ping pong ball between Harvey and Slater

 

It's a good attempt to unify the party.

 

At some point Patrick Harvie will have to face that challenge too. If he doesn't run away. 

[Japan Jambo]

2 hours ago, Mikey1874 said:

Kate Forbes Deputy First Minister 

 

Is she happy with that? The title is grand but very limited power and profile I'd suspect, I'd have thought she would of been after the cheque book.

[BlueRiver]

1 hour ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

 

Big boot in the stanes to Mundell. 

[OTT]

2 hours ago, BlueRiver said:

 

Interesting times ahead on a legislative front. 

 

Will the SNP potentially need unionist party votes to pass certain legislation now? How will many of their supporters react to them working with Toaries? 

 

What happens if Regan votes with the SNP, Assuming the greens vote against and Unionists do too, then I think that makes it 64/64 and the presiding officer votes with the government? 

 

Hopefully the Unionists are able to put aside constitutional issues for the sake of budgets and day to day issues.

[Mikey1874]

1 minute ago, OTT said:

 

What happens if Regan votes with the SNP, Assuming the greens vote against and Unionists do too, then I think that makes it 64/64 and the presiding officer votes with the government? 

 

Hopefully the Unionists are able to put aside constitutional issues for the sake of budgets and day to day issues.

 

"Put aside constitutional issues"

 

Pretty simple. Abandon the campaign for independence.

 

 

[Malinga the Swinga]

1 minute ago, OTT said:

 

What happens if Regan votes with the SNP, Assuming the greens vote against and Unionists do too, then I think that makes it 64/64 and the presiding officer votes with the government? 

 

Hopefully the Unionists are able to put aside constitutional issues for the sake of budgets and day to day issues.

Hopefully the nationalists are able to put aside constitutional issues for the sake of budgets and day to day issues.

[BlueRiver]

2 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

What happens if Regan votes with the SNP, Assuming the greens vote against and Unionists do too, then I think that makes it 64/64 and the presiding officer votes with the government? 

 

Hopefully the Unionists are able to put aside constitutional issues for the sake of budgets and day to day issues.

 

I think the convention is the PO votes with the government? 

 

I'm sure parties will be able to provided that the budget itself gives some concessions to their priorities. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

1 hour ago, Hagar the Horrible said:

Patrick Harvey says: many people will be concerned at Forbes new role!  she has quite starling social conservative views

 

probably if you wear a green rosette it is  concern,  But I would say Swinney has raised a flag so far and wont sit on the fence

 

I am hoping Swinney and Forbes will be the Ying to the Yang, Whereas Humza was just the ping pong ball between Harvey and Slater

Says the guy who advocates the mutilation  of children and wanting male rapists in women’s prisons , he’s got sone brass neck . Funny how he wasn’t bothered about Humzas faith ? 

Edited May 8 by JudyJudyJudy

[JudyJudyJudy]

1 hour ago, Hagar the Horrible said:

am hoping Swinney and Forbes will be the Ying to the Yang, Whereas

And it leaves the creepy greens absolutely seething , so it’s all good ! KF is bidding her time.

[Life Aquatic]

Years ago when my wife was completing her teacher training, her training group were informed that John Swinney, then Education Secretary, was visiting to discuss the future of teaching, listen to their concerns and take the feedback back to Holyrood. 

 

They all prepared questions and comments and were keen to share the problems they were facing. 

 

Swinney arrived with a camera crew, had himself filmed sitting at a table with the teachers and then left less than five minutes into the "discussion" 

 

That night on reporting Scotland they replayed the footage over him speaking at Holyrood about how he'd "spent the day" discussing the issues with young teachers. 

 

He's just playing the game like all the rest... 

[OTT]

1 minute ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Says the guy who advocates the militating of children and wanting male rapists in women’s prisons , he’s got sone brass neck . Funny how he wasn’t bothered about Humzas faith ? 

 

Exactly. Never heard him asking where exactly Humza was during the vote on same sex marriage. 

 

Harvey is just a different kind of bigot. 

 

Kate Forbes IMO will make an excellent deputy, and hopefully she gets a chance to grab his smug face and rub it in progressive policies which make him look like the bitter wee weirdo he is. The difference between Forbes & Harvey is that Forbes approach to social justice isn't skin deep. She wants to tackle child poverty, not force homes in a cost of living to have to pay for heat pumps they can't afford! Or protect rural fishing communities instead of imposing HMPAs they didn't vote or ask for. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

2 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

Exactly. Never heard him asking where exactly Humza was during the vote on same sex marriage. 

 

Harvey is just a different kind of bigot. 

 

Kate Forbes IMO will make an excellent deputy, and hopefully she gets a chance to grab his smug face and rub it in progressive policies which make him look like the bitter wee weirdo he is. The difference between Forbes & Harvey is that Forbes approach to social justice isn't skin deep. She wants to tackle child poverty, not force homes in a cost of living to have to pay for heat pumps they can't afford! Or protect rural fishing communities instead of imposing HMPAs they didn't vote or ask for. 

Great posting !! 

[JudyJudyJudy]

https://bbc.in/3y6MNiF
 

 

[Nucky Thompson]

46 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

 

 

Hopefully the Unionists are able to put aside constitutional issues for the sake of budgets and day to day issues.

You would hope that they would for the sake of the country.

I'm all for governments to get on with the day job

[Boab]

35 minutes ago, Life Aquatic said:

Years ago when my wife was completing her teacher training, her training group were informed that John Swinney, then Education Secretary, was visiting to discuss the future of teaching, listen to their concerns and take the feedback back to Holyrood. 

 

They all prepared questions and comments and were keen to share the problems they were facing. 

 

Swinney arrived with a camera crew, had himself filmed sitting at a table with the teachers and then left less than five minutes into the "discussion" 

 

That night on reporting Scotland they replayed the footage over him speaking at Holyrood about how he'd "spent the day" discussing the issues with young teachers. 

 

He's just playing the game like all the rest... 

Everybody’s playing the game, mate !

Even on here !

If an opponent of Forbes had her views on certain things, certain posters would be all over it.

Just look at how wee Harvie is portrayed !

If people want to call politicians weirdos, at least be consistent !

[OTT]

1 minute ago, Nucky Thompson said:

You would hope that they would for the sake of the country.

I'm all for governments to get on with the day job

 

Independence is dead for the duration of this parliamentary term. Probably longer.

 

To me, getting on with delivering in core areas - NHS, housing, the economy* are absolutely crucial - but whats more, Salmond proved how support can be gained by governing competently. 

 

*where possible obv large areas are reserved

[AyrJambo]

2 minutes ago, Nucky Thompson said:

You would hope that they would for the sake of the country.

I'm all for governments to get on with the day job

 

It could be argued though that constitutional issues are important "for the sake of the country"

[Ulysses]

5 hours ago, AyrJambo said:

 

Apologies for not getting back sooner

Work is manic just now!!

 

I am no currency or international finance expert

I do think that an independent Scotland should have it's own currency from the outset

 

This link provides a kind of FAQ from the Scottish Currency Research Group

 

https://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2021/09/14/the-quick-guide-to-the-new-scottish-currency/

 

See also https://www.reservebank.scot/

 

I am neither advocating nor disputing what is said there but as someone who appears to have a handle on this stuff I'd appreciate your thoughts

Same goes for others who have posted on this specific topic

 

In a nutshell, my view (albeit inexpert) is that an independent Scotland could quite readily operate its own currency, monetary policy and central bank. In my view most countries could do that, and there's no good reason why Scotland would be any different. 

 

If there's a difficulty - and I'm not saying there is - it's in the politics rather than the finance, if you get what I mean.  Under normal circumstances, you'd expect a new national currency in an economically developed country to wobble around a bit by reference to other currencies, depending on fluctuations in markets - but fundamentally to be stable over time.  But because of the particular politics of Scottish independence that might not be enough.  Politically, people may want reassurance that their new currency and economy are stable, and the easiest political way to do that is to tie the currency to one of the world's big guns.  Although GBP isn't really a big currency compared to the dollar and the euro, it's still 4th-ranked in the world.  More importantly, a huge percentage of Scotland's exports and imports are denominated in GBP, so a pegged link to GBP would guarantee to some degree wholesale and retail price stability.

 

But as soon as a small country pegs its currency to another one, it gives up the advantages of having its own independent monetary policy, and also lets the central bank for the other currency dictate monetary policy, interest rates, and inflation policy.

 

In other words, in Scotland's case the most flexible economic strategy might be to have an independent currency, but the best political strategy might be to tie the value of the currency to the pound.

 

Choices, choices.

[Ulysses]

5 hours ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

 

As soon as rate pegging stops, I'd predict a massive run on Scottish pound that would see it devalue quicker than anything we've seen for years. 

 

 

Why?

 

A much weaker Irish economy stopped rate pegging in 1979.  There wasn't a run on the currency. It did decline to find a level about 10 to 15 percent below an artificially high pegged rate, which in turn triggered an export boom.

 

The only cause for concern the independent Irish pound ever gave the government was on a couple of occasions when the currency went on an upward run, or when sterling declined, running the risk of making our exports uncompetitive. 

 

When the national currency to euro exchange rates were fixed in January 1999, the Irish pound was valued at 89p sterling. If the Irish pound was carved back out of the euro today and became an independent currency, it would be worth £1.09.

 

Whatever fiscal issues either Scotland or the UK might have these days, the Scottish economy today is in better shape than Ireland's was in 1979.

[Gizmo]

3 hours ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

Curious, I was led to believe the SNP are "Finished" yet they are predicted to gain a seat in a very blue voting area. 🤔
 

[Malinga the Swinga]

9 minutes ago, Gizmo said:

Curious, I was led to believe the SNP are "Finished" yet they are predicted to gain a seat in a very blue voting area. 🤔
 

SNP could grow a backbone and call a Scottish election. Then we'd all see what happens.

[JudyJudyJudy]

Just now, Malinga the Swinga said:

SNP could grow a backbone and call a Scottish election. Then we'd all see what happens.

Doesn’t matter . The Indy dream is finished 

[JudyJudyJudy]

😝

[JudyJudyJudy]

Oooooft 

https://x.com/wingsscotland/status/1788250359116288411?s=46&t=Uyg6zS_aUfEwlXY6vOoxzQ

 

savage stuff 

 

Well said Murdo 

 

Edited May 8 by JudyJudyJudy

[manaliveits105]

15 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

😝

and 2 jambos 

[i wish jj was my dad]

3 hours ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

"Put aside constitutional issues"

 

Pretty simple. Abandon the campaign for independence.

 

 

Tbf, the Tories and probably the Lib Dems and Labour go on a lot more about independence than the SNP do which is one of the challenges that I think Swinney has in his party. 

I don't think they should abandon it but they may be better served parking it. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

He’s taking Forbes appointment well 😂

 

 

[John Findlay]

48 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

and 2 jambos 

I wonder If Kate Forbes is having a wee subtle digs at the Greens in that photo.

[JudyJudyJudy]

Great news . Taking out their own trash , can only hope this snowballs so all the weirdos stay in the one party . Easier to monitor . And good news for the SNP 

 

 

 

[hughesie27]

7 hours ago, Hagar the Horrible said:

Swinney does not want to be an interim FM, so work with the middle ground.  In England and across the UK  there is just a need for change, even if it is SKS.  In Scotland we also are calling out for change, the SNP have been in too long.  But here is the crux, we want change also at WM, so to get the Tory's out you vote for labour, that will work against the SNP, and for those wanting rid of the SNP, again it will be a vote for Labour.

 

Swinney needs to be decisive to hold on in power, while pacifying the radical elements,  tough job, glad it is not me 

As with I'm pretty sure every election since WW2, they way Scotland chooses to vote with have 0 impact on the outcome of the GE. 

6 hours ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

Interesting. Possibly evidence of a Boost in the polls from Appointing Swinney? Maybe not, I'm probably deluded.

 

Anyway, @JudyJudyJudy. How does this align with your views that the SNP are finished.

[The Mighty Thor]

5 hours ago, BlueRiver said:

 

Big boot in the stanes to Mundell. 

Was fluffy Governor General or just Branch Office Manager?

[H2]

On 30/04/2024 at 22:43, AyrJambo said:

 

We're going round in circles here to no great effect

The original difference of opinion was on what defines a nation - your position is that Scotland and England are not nations since they share a landmass and that only landmasses can define national borders therefore the only nations in the British Isles are ROI and the UK

My position is that the UK is not a nation but a unitary state comprised of several nations since nationhood is not solely defined by a geographical border but encompasses language, culture, history and identity

 

Take international football as an example

 

FIFA and UEFA do not hold registrations from the UK FA - they hold registrations from the Scottish FA, the English FA, the Welsh FA and indeed the NI FA which allows these nations to compete internationally with other nations

 

 

Your  position can be anything you like, but you are wrong. pure and simple.

[cazzyy]

9 hours ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

There’s a Labour thread for that . Stop the deflection 

 

6 hours ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Says the guy who advocates the mutilation  of children and wanting male rapists in women’s prisons , he’s got sone brass neck . Funny how he wasn’t bothered about Humzas faith ? 

 

Uber irony at it's finest.

[AyrJambo]

2 hours ago, H2 said:

Your  position can be anything you like, but you are wrong. pure and simple.

[Australis]

14 hours ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

😝

 

[JudyJudyJudy]

3 minutes ago, Australis said:

 

😂

Edited May 9 by JudyJudyJudy

[Japan Jambo]

5 minutes ago, Australis said:

 

 

👏 totally puerile, but enjoyable 🤣

[manaliveits105]

11 minutes ago, Australis said:

 

[Hagar the Horrible]

12 hours ago, hughesie27 said:

As with I'm pretty sure every election since WW2, they way Scotland chooses to vote with have 0 impact on the outcome of the GE. 

Interesting. Possibly evidence of a Boost in the polls from Appointing Swinney? Maybe not, I'm probably deluded.

 

Anyway, @JudyJudyJudy. How does this align with your views that the SNP are finished.

No the point I am making is that because the Tories are in disarray at the moment, there is a drive down south to get rid, so there will be a red resurrection, but also people up here will also vote labour to get rid of the Tories, but that will impact on the SNP at Westminster,  They will get hit twice as those who also want to get rid of the SNP will also vote labour.  The SNP will get hit by anti-tory and anti-snp protest votes.

 

AS for Swinney and Forbes, I think it will slow the rot, but look at the same people he put straight back in, Constance and Summerville, both make Humza look not bad.  Swinney will ward off a call for an immediate HGE, so he gets 2 years to save their skins, but as it stands there is a drive and a will for change,  He has to be Strong against the Greens, and unite a broad church, that was pulling the party apart.  But if he still does nothing for the Cost of Living crisis, they will be gone and Indy with it

[Gundermann]

17 hours ago, OTT said:

 

Exactly. Never heard him asking where exactly Humza was during the vote on same sex marriage. 

 

Harvey is just a different kind of bigot. 

 

Kate Forbes IMO will make an excellent deputy, and hopefully she gets a chance to grab his smug face and rub it in progressive policies which make him look like the bitter wee weirdo he is. The difference between Forbes & Harvey is that Forbes approach to social justice isn't skin deep. She wants to tackle child poverty, not force homes in a cost of living to have to pay for heat pumps they can't afford! Or protect rural fishing communities instead of imposing HMPAs they didn't vote or ask for. 

 

 

Because there's nothing to see there. HY's record on LGBT rights is well known. Equally no-one questions Swinney or Ian Blackford either despite both being committed Christians. Maybe it's something to do with Kate's actual utterances on the subject?

 

Here's the Gay Times:

https://www.gaytimes.com/life/scotland-first-minister-humza-yousaf-lgbtq-rights/

 

 

Quote

 

Voting Record

Despite missing the final vote in February 2014 on the legalisation of same-sex marriage due to Government business, Yousaf has consistently voted in favour of motions that would protect LGBTQ+ people.

In 2011, he voted for the Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Bill which aimed to update existing laws surrounding hate crime to ensure that the act of stirring up hatred against people based on sexual orientation or transgender identity were considered a crime. 

In the Scottish Parliament, he spoke during the final stage of the bill on the impact of stirring up racial hatred, and how hatred based on sexual orientation or gender identity is just as important.

“There are some people here who believe—even if they were to be the person towards whom the hatred was directed—that racism that is intentionally stirred up using threatening or abusive language, at home with a sibling, child or grandchild present, should not be prosecuted,” he said.

“The outcome could lead to a person of colour, a disabled person, someone who is gay or lesbian, an older person, a trans woman or somebody with variation of sex characteristics being beaten up or threatened with violence.”

The Bill passed on 11 March 2021, with 82 votes in favour, 32 votes against, and 4 abstentions.

As the leadership hustings commenced in early March 2023, Yousaf’s message remained clear on equality for all, stating that he would make Scotland an “International leader in Human

Rights”. Along with this, he promised to ban conversion therapy and “embed LGBT rights into an independent Scotland’s constitution”.

The outlook looks good – however some could say a lot of these strong promises hinge on his ability to lead Scotland into a new realm of independence.

 

Edited May 9 by Gundermann

[hughesie27]

17 minutes ago, Hagar the Horrible said:

No the point I am making is that because the Tories are in disarray at the moment, there is a drive down south to get rid, so there will be a red resurrection, but also people up here will also vote labour to get rid of the Tories, but that will impact on the SNP at Westminster,  They will get hit twice as those who also want to get rid of the SNP will also vote labour.  The SNP will get hit by anti-tory and anti-snp protest votes.

 

 

 

Not sure I agree with some of that. I can't see the Anti Tory vote making a big difference to the SNP. Tories only have 6 MPs in Scotland I think from a quick Google, so really it's only those constituents who make up any Anti Tory vote. SNP can only benefit from mkre votes from that. But I'd guess if any switch it will be to Labour. 0 impact on SNP seats.

The other 50 odd area can't make a difference to getting rid of the Tories, just on how many SNP, Lib Dem and Labour MPs there are. 

 

Edited May 9 by hughesie27

[JudyJudyJudy]

5 minutes ago, Gundermann said:

 

 

Because there's nothing to see there. HY's record on LGBT rights is well known. Equally no-one questions Swinney or Ian Blackford either despite both being committed Christians. Maybe it's something to do with Kate's actual utterances on the subject?

 

Here's the Gay Times:

https://www.gaytimes.com/life/scotland-first-minister-humza-yousaf-lgbtq-rights/

 

 

“ The gay times “ is hardly going to be impartial . It’s a joke of a rag now . 

[JudyJudyJudy]

6 minutes ago, Gundermann said:

 

 

Because there's nothing to see there. HY's record on LGBT rights is well known. Equally no-one questions Swinney or Ian Blackford either despite both being committed Christians. Maybe it's something to do with Kate's actual utterances on the subject?

 

Here's the Gay Times:

https://www.gaytimes.com/life/scotland-first-minister-humza-yousaf-lgbtq-rights/

 

 

He wanted the hate crime in place to scare / stop women and their supporters from arguing for their rights . He’s not the slightest interest in LGB rights . Not the slightest . If he has he would have been at the gay marriage vote but was absent due to some “ meeting” 

[JudyJudyJudy]

9 minutes ago, Gundermann said:

 

 

Because there's nothing to see there. HY's record on LGBT rights is well known. Equally no-one questions Swinney or Ian Blackford either despite both being committed Christians. Maybe it's something to do with Kate's actual utterances on the subject?

 

Here's the Gay Times:

https://www.gaytimes.com/life/scotland-first-minister-humza-yousaf-lgbtq-rights/

 

 

Banning conversion therapy ? You mean banning young people from counselling services to help them navigate their sexual orientation ? That “ conversion therapy “? 

[Gundermann]

4 minutes ago, hughesie27 said:

 

Not sure I agree with some of that. I can't see the Anti Tory vote making a big difference to the SNP. Tories only have 6 MPs in Scotland I think from a quick Google, so really it's only those constituents who make up any Anti Tory vote. SNP can only benefit from mkre votes from that. But I'd guess if any switch it will be to Labour. 0 impact on SNP seats.

The other 50 odd area can't make a difference to getting rid of the Tories, just on how many SNP, Lib Dem and Labour MPs there are. 

 

 

 

Yes. Some Tories will go to Labour and some Labour to SNP, given Starmer's enthusiastic embrace of a far-right Tory. Starmer will win handsomely in England but I reckon the SNP will still be the largest party by a country mile here. Labour already have divisions on the pro-Israel stance, Scottish Labour unhappy at being forced to back London's regressive policies and many are now upset at Elphicke being welcomed in while old stalwarts are still sidelind. Elphicke makes Kate Forbes look like a liberal FFS.

 

https://news.sky.com/story/vote-2024-local-election-results-sunak-starmer-davey-tories-labour-lib-dems-blackpool-south-by-election-12593360?postid=7645979#liveblog-body

[Hagar the Horrible]

3 minutes ago, hughesie27 said:

 

Not sure I agree with some of that. I can't see the Anti Tory vote making a big difference to the SNP. Tories only have 6 MPs in Scotland I think from a quick Google, so really it's only those constituents who make up any Anti Tory vote. SNP can only benefit from more votes from that. But I'd guess if any switch it will be to Labour. 0 impact on SNP seats.

The other 50 odd area can't make a difference to getting rid of the Tories, just on how many SNP, Lib Dem and Labour MPs there are. 

 

I get totally about what your saying.  I am just adding the demographics up here will change,  It is just a consideration at this time, but by the time of a GE and a HGE it will all be up in the air.   I am just considering that the SNP footprint will suffer because some people have been turned off by them, and then there is a protest vote against the Tories, so in those constituencies held by the SNP, people will vote Labour to get rid of the Tories, instead of the SNP.  Plus people will vote labour to get rid of the SNP.  The SNP are no longer the alternative to the Tories.  The SNP will face a double whammy.   Not everywhere, not everybody is stupid.  I also should consider if people will vote Alba thus watering down the Indy drive.  That will also play into labours hands.

[frankblack]

20 minutes ago, Gundermann said:

 

 

Yes. Some Tories will go to Labour and some Labour to SNP, given Starmer's enthusiastic embrace of a far-right Tory. Starmer will win handsomely in England but I reckon the SNP will still be the largest party by a country mile here. Labour already have divisions on the pro-Israel stance, Scottish Labour unhappy at being forced to back London's regressive policies and many are now upset at Elphicke being welcomed in while old stalwarts are still sidelind. Elphicke makes Kate Forbes look like a liberal FFS.

 

https://news.sky.com/story/vote-2024-local-election-results-sunak-starmer-davey-tories-labour-lib-dems-blackpool-south-by-election-12593360?postid=7645979#liveblog-body

 

Given the extremist left wing policies of the SNP and greens this past couple of Holyrood parliaments I don't think people would switch their vote over to the SNP - a party who is under criminal investigation for embezzlement.

[Hagar the Horrible]

If there is a story to be told, or a silent message, then Swinney has axed the Junior Minister for Independence role, Instead Jamie Hepburn has been made minister for parliamentary business

 

Make of that what you will

[Hagar the Horrible]

It is a sad day when even Willie Rennie gets to take the piss over the "free the Cumbernauld One"  from being forced to write paper after paper on independence that nobody reads

[OTT]

1 hour ago, Gundermann said:

 

 

Because there's nothing to see there. HY's record on LGBT rights is well known. Equally no-one questions Swinney or Ian Blackford either despite both being committed Christians. Maybe it's something to do with Kate's actual utterances on the subject?

 

Here's the Gay Times:

https://www.gaytimes.com/life/scotland-first-minister-humza-yousaf-lgbtq-rights/

 

 

 

There is a big, big difference between hate crime legislation and voting for gay marriage. The fact is that he missed it, and there are rumours aplenty that he asked to be excused. 

 

FWIW I think Forbes needs to work on her PR here, she's not a hateful person, or someone that I believe holds negative views towards the gay community. Her answer yesterday on the issue was piss poor. She needs to directly address it and make clear her support for equal rights.