Scottish independence and devolution superthread

[doctor jambo]

13 minutes ago, FWJ said:

Ah.  So you’re one of those men telling people what they should and shouldn’t  say and think.  How’s that for free speech.

I wonder how your heroine Joannes, Cherry & Rowling would take to a man telling them what they should think.

THe issue is the men.

THe men demanding access to women spaces/sports/ prisons/ jobs

The men telling women what a woman is.

The men screaming down women for defying them

The men attending lesbian groups 

The men attempting to stop women discussing their concerns

 

The men are the problem, just not the men you allude to.

the men you allude to are the husbands and fathers and brothers who see through the glitter and rainbows to the really dark side of this deeply damaging misogynist ideology that is quite specifically damaging womens rights

[Lord Montpelier]

1 hour ago, FWJ said:

I’m intrigued by this new-found enthusiasm for women’s rights among many.  It reminds me of the 1980s with ‘gays should be banned, says so in the bible’ usually voiced by those who hadn’t seen the inside of a church since nineteen oatcake.

Wrong

Some of us just look out for others in our lives. Guess that isn't you though

[FWJ]

How do these husbands and fathers and brothers cope in countries like Belgium and Ireland or Spain and New Zealand?

Or in countries known for their ‘misogyny’ and medieval take on women’s rights like Norway, Iceland, Finland and Switzerland?

[JudyJudyJudy]

1 minute ago, FWJ said:

How do these husbands and fathers and brothers cope in countries like Belgium and Ireland or Spain and New Zealand?

Or in countries known for their ‘misogyny’ and medieval take on women’s rights like Norway, Iceland, Finland and Switzerland?

It’s the Scotland thread ! 

[JudyJudyJudy]

2 minutes ago, Lord Montpelier said:

Wrong

Some of us just look out for others in our lives. Guess that isn't you though

Yep 👍 

[FWJ]

11 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

It’s the Scotland thread ! 

I see

So Scotland is acting in isolation and comparisons or examples cannot be made with other countries?

 

I’ll try to remember that and file it under “Potential future hypocrisy”

Edited May 10 by FWJ

[FWJ]

20 minutes ago, Lord Montpelier said:

Wrong

Some of us just look out for others in our lives. Guess that isn't you though

Well that’s your view, and a passionately held one, I’m sure.

 

However, although I disagree, I won’t tell you to stop saying it.

 

Edited May 10 by FWJ

[JudyJudyJudy]

3 minutes ago, FWJ said:

I see

So Scotland is acting in isolation and comparisons or examples cannot be made with other countries?

 

I’ll try to remember that and file it under “Potential future hypocrisy”

No start your own thread about it then .

[FWJ]

2 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

No start your own thread about it then .

Goodness.

Telling people what to do, as well as what they can’t say?

 

Quite the gatekeeper.

[Mikey1874]

So...

 

 

[Mikey1874]

This one

 

 

[Japan Jambo]

52 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

It’s the Scotland thread ! 

 

are you sure, judging by the last few pages I thought I was on the trans thread?

[manaliveits105]

Zat right John aye 

[JudyJudyJudy]

17 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

So...

 

 

Well played 

[Mikey1874]

They could have agreed to compromise with the UK Government to pass the gender recognition law.

 

So this is a clear statement. Ditch the Greens. Kate Forbes IS in Government.

[Lord Montpelier]

48 minutes ago, FWJ said:

Well that’s your view, and a passionately held one, I’m sure.

 

However, although I disagree, I won’t tell you to stop saying it.

 

Trying to work out what you are disagreeing with. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

4 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

They could have agreed to compromise with the UK Government to pass the gender recognition law.

 

So this is a clear statement. Ditch the Greens. Kate Forbes IS in Government.

Yep . It’s a great start from him to be fair in various ways . Taking no nonsense 

[FWJ]

6 minutes ago, Lord Montpelier said:

Trying to work out what you are disagreeing with. 

In this case your (rather presumptuous and unkind) ‘guess’  that I don’t look out for others in my life.

Edited May 10 by FWJ

[The Mighty Thor]

1 hour ago, Lord Montpelier said:

Some of us just look out for others in our lives.

😂

[Roxy Hearts]

5 hours ago, Roxy Hearts said:

Joanne Cherry gets on my wick! Always with the negative waves!

Wrong post response! 🙃

Edited May 10 by Roxy Hearts

[OTT]

17 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

They could have agreed to compromise with the UK Government to pass the gender recognition law.

 

So this is a clear statement. Ditch the Greens. Kate Forbes IS in Government.

 

I say good. Time to start actually delivering in key areas instead of perpetuating this culture wars bollocks. 

[Lord Montpelier]

12 minutes ago, FWJ said:

In this case your (rather presumptuous and unkind) ‘guess’  that I don’t look out for others in my life.

Cool. 

Just hope the likes of Katie dolotowski aren't lurking in any corners looking to take advantage of them

[Roxy Hearts]

3 hours ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

I heard she’s not too keen on you either ! 😂

Good 😁

[hughesie27]

1 hour ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

It’s the Scotland thread ! 

DeFLecTsHuN

[FWJ]

19 minutes ago, Lord Montpelier said:

Cool. 

Just hope the likes of Katie dolotowski aren't lurking in any corners looking to take advantage of them

Unlikely.  Straight men, who ‘identify as men’ make up the majority of violent and sexual offenders.

Indeed, aren’t people of any age and either sex, most at risk from people they know?

[JudyJudyJudy]

12 minutes ago, FWJ said:

Unlikely.  Straight men, who ‘identify as men’ make up the majority of violent and sexual offenders.

Indeed, aren’t people of any age and either sex, most at risk from people they know?

That Kate thing was a “straight” man  ! That’s the bloody point

[doctor jambo]

20 minutes ago, FWJ said:

Unlikely.  Straight men, who ‘identify as men’ make up the majority of violent and sexual offenders.

Indeed, aren’t people of any age and either sex, most at risk from people they know?

Hence why we are not allowed in such areas.

Transwomen are even more likely to be sex offenders than other men, but you want to allow them in.

Cool….

[FWJ]

4 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

Hence why we are not allowed in such areas.

Transwomen are even more likely to be sex offenders than other men, but you want to allow them in.

Cool….

Not sure I said that.

 

My chief concerns are:

 

The notion that Scotland is (or was) an outlier in this.  As I understand it similar legislation is found around the world - often in countries held to be world-leaders in women’s rights.

 

The hypocrisy surrounding much of the argument.  Women’s rights being used as a convenient smokescreen for those who are simply hostile to the idea of trans rights or even just the recognition that trans people exist.

 

Much of the language associated with this reminds me of the grim stuff around relating to gay rights (or even acceptance) in the 1980s

[JudyJudyJudy]

1 minute ago, FWJ said:

of trans rights or even just the recognition that trans people exist.

No problem with equal rights for everyone but not when those rights impinge on others . 

[FWJ]

12 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

No problem with equal rights for everyone but not when those rights impinge on others . 

I remember it was an argument used in the gay marriage debate that allowing it would make a mockery of ‘traditional’ marriage and would be the beginning of the end for family life.

[OTT]

 

 

Feel like this might prove to have some bones to it. Sturgeon has made a rod for the SNPs back in pandering to the gender zealots in the way that she has. Now any deviation from putting them at the heart of policy making is seen as regression and their faux MLK delusions of oppression kicks in and they start fighting like a fish on land. 

 

For sensible SNP voters, this should demonstrate exactly why Alba are needed. Alba want Scottish Independence, competent government in key areas and not much else. Far lower maintenance than the greens who are prioritising identity politics ahead of both their stated aim (environment) and their adopted stated aim (Independence). 

 

The sole Alba MSP could be a life line for the Swinney administration if he's humble enough to accept it. 

[ehcaley]

On 09/05/2024 at 12:41, Lord Montpelier said:

 

The Swinney Effect

SNP absolutely trounced by Labour in North Ayrshire Council by-election for Kilwinning.Labour majority of more than 1200.

Polls looking good for him today as well(not)😲

[Australis]

Salmond saying yesterday another referendum is miles away from happening.

 

Swinney saying today he could get independence in five years.

 

How many hardened SNP supporters will pass away in Swinneys time scale,knowing it won't happen.

 

Constant promises and the never deliver anything.

Don't know why so many buy into the constant lies.

[luckydug]

35 minutes ago, ehcaley said:

The Swinney Effect

SNP absolutely trounced by Labour in North Ayrshire Council by-election for Kilwinning.Labour majority of more than 1200.

Polls looking good for him today as well(not)😲

It was a gain from the Conservatives.

[FWJ]

I know someone that owns a business in Edinburgh and someone that works in finance and they are both telling me that the high/very high earners are starting to drift away.  I don’t know if that’s true or not but they’ve no reason to make stuff up.

I think if Swinney & co can concentrate on growing the economy and demonstrating competence in governing and Government support for independence will grow.

[Korky]

2 hours ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Yep . It’s a great start from him to be fair in various ways . Taking no nonsense 

He must have been dozing through all the years when he was Sturgeon’s loyal deputy and that legislation was brought forward and passed.

‘Honest John’ is just another shameless politician.

 

[doctor jambo]

30 minutes ago, FWJ said:

I know someone that owns a business in Edinburgh and someone that works in finance and they are both telling me that the high/very high earners are starting to drift away.  I don’t know if that’s true or not but they’ve no reason to make stuff up.

I think if Swinney & co can concentrate on growing the economy and demonstrating competence in governing and Government support for independence will grow.

IN the first month an estimated 1000 high earners left scotland.

if they earn an average £300 k  each, thats £120,000,000 in tax and NI moving south per annum- and that is in month 1.

They need to synergize tax rates with england

There are also quite a few employees of Scotgov registered as living in England.

You dont recruit and keep Medics/ dentists by doing to them

You also encourage early retirement and stop folks doing over time to clear waiting lists.

it was utter stupidity at the time

 

 

[doctor jambo]

1 hour ago, FWJ said:

Not sure I said that.

 

My chief concerns are:

 

The notion that Scotland is (or was) an outlier in this.  As I understand it similar legislation is found around the world - often in countries held to be world-leaders in women’s rights.

 

The hypocrisy surrounding much of the argument.  Women’s rights being used as a convenient smokescreen for those who are simply hostile to the idea of trans rights or even just the recognition that trans people exist.

 

Much of the language associated with this reminds me of the grim stuff around relating to gay rights (or even acceptance) in the 1980s

IM not concerned about scotland being an outlier.

we should be looking after the wellbeing of all of us

it is worth noting also that Argentina is about to go full throttle with fracking in Patagonia .... we should do the same

this global virtue signaling is holding us back.

economic growth = more investment in public services 

[FWJ]

Interestingly I believe Argentina was the first country to adopt gender self ID back in 2012

[The Mighty Thor]

1 hour ago, luckydug said:

It was a gain from the Conservatives.

😂

[H2]

On 09/05/2024 at 00:17, AyrJambo said:

[ehcaley]

2 hours ago, luckydug said:

It was a gain from the Conservatives.

I know that! It doesn't alter the fact that Labour took more than half the vote and wiped the floor with the SNP.

Local canvas returns which had shown a collapse in the Nat vote is now being seen consistently throughout the central belt( and has for some time before Rutherglen byelection) and a couple of areas Labour wouldn't have expected to gain much.

 

 

[i wish jj was my dad]

4 hours ago, OTT said:

 

 

Feel like this might prove to have some bones to it. Sturgeon has made a rod for the SNPs back in pandering to the gender zealots in the way that she has. Now any deviation from putting them at the heart of policy making is seen as regression and their faux MLK delusions of oppression kicks in and they start fighting like a fish on land. 

 

For sensible SNP voters, this should demonstrate exactly why Alba are needed. Alba want Scottish Independence, competent government in key areas and not much else. Far lower maintenance than the greens who are prioritising identity politics ahead of both their stated aim (environment) and their adopted stated aim (Independence). 

 

The sole Alba MSP could be a life line for the Swinney administration if he's humble enough to accept it. 

I think Swinney is humble enough. He seems a middle of the road moderate, a decent guy and manager type rather than an attention seeking front man like Salmond in Alba. 

There will be a way to deal with gender rights that avoids playing into the hands of 'socially conservative', extremists, zealots and the types that just can't survive without attacking vulnerable minorities but it shouldn't be a priority when the world is literally in danger of going on fire. 

I want to see moderation, competent government focused on delivering a fairer society where national wealth improves the quality of life for all its citizens. Demonstrate a credible  alternative not just to the current crooks in No 10 but even a reasonably moderate labour or tory administration. 

 

[OTT]

8 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

I think Swinney is humble enough. He seems a middle of the road moderate, a decent guy and manager type rather than an attention seeking front man like Salmond in Alba. 

There will be a way to deal with gender rights that avoids playing into the hands of 'socially conservative', extremists, zealots and the types that just can't survive without attacking vulnerable minorities but it shouldn't be a priority when the world is literally in danger of going on fire. 

I want to see moderation, competent government focused on delivering a fairer society where national wealth improves the quality of life for all its citizens. Demonstrate a credible  alternative not just to the current crooks in No 10 but even a reasonably moderate labour or tory administration. 

 

 

I'm an Alba voter, and I feel like I shouldn't like Swinney as much as I do ... but I do!  Something about him as you say seems pretty humble and moderate. He comes across as serious and competent whilst appearing to be a decent person. There is probably a reasonable arguement he should have stepped forward when Sturgeon stood down and a lot of the difficulties over the last 12 months might have been averted. However, we're days into his tenure so I guess that is to be proven. 

 

I hope Swinney is allowed to be his own man. No backseat driving from Sturgeon, and hopefully a couple of Forbes appointees within the cabinet. Ivan McKee for example would be a good government minister, as would Fergus Ewing (as he has previously done), similarly Michelle Thomson who again, comes across as sensible and competent. Jim Fairlie is another that I like too. 

 

The part in bold I wholeheartedly agree with! I want to see a government focused on tackling the cost of living, figuring out how to fix the housing market and just generally taking steps to make life better for people across the board - be that improving public services or making sure there is more money in our pockets. I'm a bit tired of flagship policies. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

24 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

vulnerable minorities but it shouldn't be a priority when the world is literally in danger of going on fire. 

such hyperbolic nonsense.  drama, drama drama 

[i wish jj was my dad]

1 minute ago, OTT said:

 

I'm an Alba voter, and I feel like I shouldn't like Swinney as much as I do ... but I do!  Something about him as you say seems pretty humble and moderate. He comes across as serious and competent whilst appearing to be a decent person. There is probably a reasonable arguement he should have stepped forward when Sturgeon stood down and a lot of the difficulties over the last 12 months might have been averted. However, we're days into his tenure so I guess that is to be proven. 

 

I hope Swinney is allowed to be his own man. No backseat driving from Sturgeon, and hopefully a couple of Forbes appointees within the cabinet. Ivan McKee for example would be a good government minister, as would Fergus Ewing (as he has previously done), similarly Michelle Thomson who again, comes across as sensible and competent. Jim Fairlie is another that I like too. 

 

The part in bold I wholeheartedly agree with! I want to see a government focused on tackling the cost of living, figuring out how to fix the housing market and just generally taking steps to make life better for people across the board - be that improving public services or making sure there is more money in our pockets. I'm a bit tired of flagship policies. 

It will.still.probably go breast skywards but my impression is that he's just a safe, competetent Michael Smith type who gets stuff done without pissing people off or having a particularly big personality. The complete opposite of the sort of grandstanding showman that has 'popular' appeal for folk that can't see beyond a soundbite or their social media pals. 

I suspect he would have made a.damn sight better job of it than Humza but from the outside it looked like he felt he had done his bit and wanted out of front line politics but the tartan suits knew how much the SNP were imploding and the alternatives would bring about the inevitable split between right and left. I doubt he will turn it around but I can't think of a better alternative in SNP or elsewhere. 

[Malinga the Swinga]

6 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

It will.still.probably go breast skywards but my impression is that he's just a safe, competetent Michael Smith type who gets stuff done without pissing people off or having a particularly big personality. The complete opposite of the sort of grandstanding showman that has 'popular' appeal for folk that can't see beyond a soundbite or their social media pals. 

I suspect he would have made a.damn sight better job of it than Humza but from the outside it looked like he felt he had done his bit and wanted out of front line politics but the tartan suits knew how much the SNP were imploding and the alternatives would bring about the inevitable split between right and left. I doubt he will turn it around but I can't think of a better alternative in SNP or elsewhere. 

If Swinney gets stuff done as FM, it will be the first time he'll have been a success at any government role. As for safe and competent, these are two words that he will be unused to seeing next to his name.

Swinney is a Sturgeon man, brought in to ensure no investigation into Sturgeon and Murrell's mishandling of power and to hold the rug while the dirty stuff is swept away.

[i wish jj was my dad]

4 minutes ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

If Swinney gets stuff done as FM, it will be the first time he'll have been a success at any government role. As for safe and competent, these are two words that he will be unused to seeing next to his name.

Swinney is a Sturgeon man, brought in to ensure no investigation into Sturgeon and Murrell's mishandling of power and to hold the rug while the dirty stuff is swept away.

Maybe but another way of looking at it is that we was the finance secretary during the supposed 'competent' government era of Salmond. Shit got done. Whether that was just because at that time the two administrations actually behaved like grown ups rather than squabbling bairns, I don't know 

There are particularly polarised views in UK and Scottish politics ATM. I'm conscious of my contempt for what has been running WM since the ERG took over. I think yours is about 'progressive' taxation and welfare so I'm not going to attempt to persuade you. My point is I can't think of any other Scottish politician I would prefer as FM ATM.

That's the discussion I was having with the guy on the board who seems most plumbed into Scottish politics or at least the nationalist side of the debate. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

12 minutes ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

If Swinney gets stuff done as FM, it will be the first time he'll have been a success at any government role. As for safe and competent, these are two words that he will be unused to seeing next to his name.

Swinney is a Sturgeon man, brought in to ensure no investigation into Sturgeon and Murrell's mishandling of power and to hold the rug while the dirty stuff is swept away.

Swinney is well involved in the shit of the last 17 years . “ safe and competent “ ? I don’t think so .

[il Duce McTarkin]

7 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Swinney is well involved in the shit of the last 17 years . “ safe and competent “ ? I don’t think so .

 

What did he get up to that's so bad, jamesey?